MovieChat Forums > WrestleMania 22 (2006) Discussion > Bret Hart beats all

Bret Hart beats all

posted 18 years ago by JBoo3
35 replies | jump to latest

Bret Hart is the greatest wrestler that lived. If you want to be a gay little kid that doesn't agree with me and if you know nothing about wrestling's past, I will beat you to your knees. Bret Hart has worked his but off from day 1.
He was never a showboat like hogan or Taker. Guys like chris Benoit come from guys like Bret Hart. And, if you know about wrestling, the old greats like Thesz, Flair, Backlund, Harley Race, and Roddy Piper all love Bret Hart. I'm aorry, I'm not trying to be mean, I just want to make a statement and wake up all Shawn Michaels fans. Anyone who knows about wrestling, that knows what they're talking about, please write me back.

[–] adamjonesio 18 years ago

You see, this was a half decent post until....

If you want to be a gay little kid that doesn't agree with me and if you know nothing about wrestling's past, I will beat you to your knees.

How exactly will you do that? Cyber punch. It was a good post but you made yourself look like an ass. A pathetic geek that likes to think of himself as a 6'6 18stone behemoth when in reality you barely make 90lbs....

Now to the post, because an older guy likes somebody, doesn't mean that they are not the greatest ever. For sheer heart, yes I accept that Hart was good but what lost it for me was his sheer bitterness over being unable to drop something that happened nearly 10 years ago. Fact is Flair, despite being dealt s hit on several occasions, has been p-oed but got back on the horse and carried on riding. Flair has done so much for so long and despite his lack of ring abilty, he is my personal opinion for the greatest ever.

Join Me!
http://s9.invisionfree.com/WrestleFanaticForums/index.php?act=idx

[–] JBoo3 18 years ago

In reality, I barely make 90lbs!? That's a good one, nice try.
And even if you say I am an older guy that thinks one guy is the greatest, that sure could very well mean he is the greatest. We all know of Bret Hart's sensitive feeling toward the bussiness, and it hit him hard when he got screwed. If that is the wa yhe feels now, then so what. That never changes his wrestling abilities and accomplishments.

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

You knew you'd get one sooner or later, I'm a Shawn Michaels fan...

Now I'm not here to bag the Hitman, I thought he was great, the greatest technical wrestler of all time. However, all round I feel he was indeed second best to Shawn Michaels.

First and foremost are Shawn's achievements, 4 time World champ, 3 time IC champ, 3 time tag team champ, European champ, 2 time Royal Rumble winner (one of which he entered first). That makes him a grand slam champion (the first EVER), not to mention the fact that he held both the World Title and the European Title at the same time.

I acknowledge however that you were speaking entirerly of wrestling ability and not achievements, which does infact make this debate harder.

In truth you will never convince a Bret Hart fan that Shawn is better nor will you convince a Shawn Michaels fan that Bret is better. In fact they are almost inseparable it really does come down to whether the judge likes technical or catch as catch can style better. I personally believe that Shawn was more charismatic, more daring (which shows more respect for the bussiness), and more realistic looking than Bret not to mention more highly decorated.

The only thing I object to is you telling HBK fans to "wake up to our selves". We have nothing to wake up to, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are the 1st and 2nd best wrestlers in history and personal preference is the only thing that could separate them.

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Just thought I'd list Bret's achievements so everyone can have an informed opinion. :)

Bret's achievements:

5 time World champ, 2 time IC champ, 2 time Tag Team champ, 1 time (shared) Royal Rumble winner, 2 time King of the Ring.

Shawn's achievements:

4 time World champ, 3 time IC champ, 3 time tag team champ, 1 time European champ, 2 time Royal Rumble winner (one of which he entered first). That makes him a grand slam champion (the first EVER), not to mention the fact that he held both the World Title and the European Title at the same time.

So that means:

Bret= 9 titles, 3 special event wins (total= 12)

Shawn= 11 titles, 2 special event wins (total= 13)

Therefore, as far as records are concerned Shawn is better by 1 accolade.

[–] JBoo3 18 years ago

All right, we can look at the achievements and say who is better and who had more belts and so on. But look at the road and the struggles that Hart went through. He is all "real" and when I mean real I mean he he went through hell to get where he is, not making a stop at Balco. He was trained by one of the best trainers of all time who is responsible for all least 5 champions and who should be in the hall of fame. That one being Stu Hart (rest his soul). Hart tock the long way up where Shawn tock the quick and easy way, and became a superstar the minute people saw him. I know for fact that Michaels was on the jucie in his prime. He had many family deaths to fight through and he still got through to where he is now.

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

If by "jucie" you mean steriods then yes, Shawn was on steriods. Every single wrestler including Bret Hart is on steriods. You can't go out every week and punish your body the way they do without something to repare your muscels. Also, just look at all of them, you can't get that sort of look without steriods. My father is a body builder (not on steriods) he's been doing it for 24 years and he looks nothing like the wrestlers and it's because of the lack of steriods. He can tell when someone is on them and all the wrestlers are.

As far as hardships Shawn has strived to become champion since he was 12 years old, he has slipped disks in his back, he has had about 100 concussions including a thing called "concussion syndrome" and more.

Now on to the quick road:

Shawn had been wrestling for 10 years when he won the the World title.
Bret had been wrestling for 8 years when he won the World title.
Therefore if anyone took the quick road it was Bret.

On to training. You don't call Jose Lothario a legendary trainer? Well it doesn't matter if "you" do because every expert does. Anyway, would it not be better to become a great wrestler with not so good training? it would mean that you had great natural ability and ment that you and only you were the best.

As far as family hardship yes Bret's brother may have died (after Bret had left the WWF by the way) but Shawn's father is the forces, so imagine being in the match of your career and having to think about whether your father is ok or getting killed somwhere arcoss the globe.

Also I forgot to mention that their match record stands at:

Shawn: 2 wins, 1 loss

Bret: 1 win, 2 losses

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Really, you didn't like his arrogance? I did I thought it made him funny and cool. I think anyone would be arrogant if they looked as good as Shawn (I know I am).

It is a shame that Bret isn't comming back, then again after his stroke he probobly wouldn't be able to do it as well as he used to. I think it's better to stay away and maintain legendary status than come back and be "ok" but not great. I personally don't think Shawn should have come back, I still think he is the greatest ever and certainly the greatest around today but he's not as good as he was and he is not winning main event matches which sort of puts a dampper on his whole career (sort of...).

Yeah the attitude era was the best age of wrestling although I didn't and still don't like Stone Cold Steve Austin.

(Just out of curiousity, "rosemary-danielli" are you Canadian?)

[–] JBoo3 18 years ago

Even if I am Canadian, that doesn't change my opinion on Bret. I know that most people here in Canada do think that Bret is the greatest, as I do as well. But him being Canadian doesn't make me more proud to like Bret, but more proud of my country. ( I also am a huge Benoit fan, and him being Canadian, does add to my liking of him).

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

In my opinion those 2 are some of the greatest of all time. To name one person as the greatest of all time will cause too much contraversy. If I had my way Kurt Angle would be.

He constantly has injuries he has to recover from just to keep his career going, he goes out of his way to make other superstars look good(cena's first match, rey mysterio near the beginning, and most of all brock lesnar), Angle also has a great devotion to the business even though he is nearing the end of his career.

And if we go by training Kurt Angle originally trained for amateur wrestling first which meant he had nobody special and he did most of his work by himself. He woke up at 5 AM and did straight work-outs til late at night before the olympics. Although he used a questionable drug to wrestle for the olympic gold the fact remains he still won it with a broken neck.

And right when he made the transition to WWF it took him a few months before he was on live TV showing his wrestling skills. And before Brock Lesnar ruined the WWE name Kurt Angle was the fastest rising superstar to ever grace the WWE.

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Yeah Kurt is great, his match with Shawn at WrestleMania 21 was awsome.

Kurt actually DIDN'T have a broken neck, if he did he would not have been allowed to compete. He just a neck injury.

I thought it was amazing that Kurt won every major title in his rookie year, I was very impressed by that.

5 time world champion, 1 time IC champion, 1 time European champion, 1 time tag team champion, 1 time Hardcore champion, 1 time King of the Ring.

Kurt Angle: 10 titles, 1 special event win (total= 11)

Not quite as good as Bret but he still did most of that in his first year...WOW.

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Ric Flair: 2 time World champion, 1 time IC champion, 2 time Tag Team champion
1 time Royal Rumble winner

Hulk Hogan: 6 time World champion, 1 time Tag Team champion, 2 time Royal Rumble winner

Flair: 5 titles, 1 special event win (total= 6)

Hulk: 7 titles, 2 special event wins (total= 9)

Both of these guys are even less than Kurt... who'd of thought?

NOTE: Flair is a 25 time world champion, but only 2 of them count because only 2 of them were in the WWE (WWF).

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

Although it wasn't broken it was still severly injured. From reading his book he said he couldn't move his neck without feeling intense pain. So basically it was exactly like a broken neck without the actual bone breaking. I had a pulled muscle in my neck once and that wasn't a severe injury. It hurt like holy hell. I could only imagine whatever Angle must have gone through.

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] packtolomeo 18 years ago

ok, there´s one thing i got to set straight...
first of all, you can quite make a measurement of a wrestler´s skills by couting their titles, for example, take hulk hogan, he hold the wwe title for a little more than 4 years so i think that´s better than be 10 time champion in a year, and besides, hulk hogan at his mid 50´s he still made a comback and beat hbk in summerslam last year.

im a big bret hart´s fan and i think he´s the most gifted thechnical wrestler of all time, if you wanna see a good wrestler, folow him since his early days not when he´s in wwe because i see that it really doesn´t matter your in ring skills a lot but what matters is the charisma and the way the crwd reacts about you.

hbk is in the charismatic grup if we put it like that, he doesn´t have half of the skils as bret hart, bret practically was born into the wrestling, he have it in his blood and no one can say anything about that, in the other hand we have hbk, he acomplish a lot in his career im agree but what we are discussing here are the skills not the achievements or the charisma, if we were discussing that i´d say that the winner in charisma is by far from others hulk hogan.

to finish with my point is that i think no one has the b@lls to say that he is the best there is, the best there was and the best that ever will be unless is true and i think he said that because he knew he was, just watch a couple of his matches from the early wwf day, or better yet, try to watch some stampeede wrestling matches (canadian promotion owned by stu hart) and you´ll see my point.

and some others tecnichal wrestlers that were/are great just like bret are:
dynamite kid
curt hennings (mr. perfect)
ric flair
chris benoit
kurt angle

it´s just the way i think, i respect all hbk fans and you say about his achievements are deffinitelly true, but you can deny that he´s not a very tecnichal wrestler although he´s one of the greatest of all time.... just not quite bret.

you all can think the way you like, it´s just that i had to say this

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

That's another thing, Shawn Michaels DID beat Hulk Hogan at SummerSlam. Shawn pinned Hogan for 6 seconds before the referee even started counting and when the ref did finally start counting he counted so slowly that Shawn had him pinned for at least 11 seconds. Also, don't give me bulls**t about "oh Shawn used a chair, waah waah waah" well Hogan used a closed fist first and so as such, broke the rules before Shawn so from then on anything went. By the way during that match the "illegal move count" was at one point Hogan: 32 moves, Shawn: 2 moves so Hogan was definitely the worst offender.

No force in Heaven, Hell or Earth could or will ever Ever EVER convince me in the slightest, not to even 1% that Hogan won any part of that match. (To hell with the history books on this occasion).

Shawn has at least equal skills as Bret, no one can deny that, yes they are different but you don't have to be technically sound to be a great wrestler. I did make the point already that the argument was not about titles but about wrestling skill, I only added that because most of the time (but not always) the best wrestler will win more titles than a less talented one (exceptions are: John Cena, Hulk Hogan and others).

Bret is definitely the best technical wrestler of all time but Shawn is definitely the best catch as catch can style wrestler ever. It's so hard to compare conflicting styles but they are both the best at what they do.

I also made my point as to why and how I thought Shawn was better and I did say that it came down to personal opinion and that there will never be an answer with which every one will agree.

NOTE: I agree that longevity (quality) is better than quantity, as such it is better to be a 1 time champ and hold it for 1 year than to be a 10 time champ and hold it for 10 months.

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

Cena held the title for almost a year. Does that qualify him as the one of the greatest to you then?

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] JBoo3 18 years ago

Cena is just over used and the reason every body hates him now is because they are sick of seeing him as champ. I used to love Cena ( even though he is an absolutley terrible wrestler) but when he just kept winnig and winning and winning in the crapiest matches, I just got bored of him. His win at WM 22, I reached my hate Cena hight. He is no where even close to anything ever!!!

[–] LewisAlexander 18 years ago

lizettesunbury: Your point a few days ago on the Micheals/Hart debate was both fair and just. Personally, they are joint 2nd on my list of all time favorites.

As for the Cena thing? I can see why people are starting to hate him.

Personnaly I think Edge should get the belt again. I believe he deserves it. Failing that, someone from Smackdown (possibly JBL) will be in the running soon!

Quoth the Raven... 'Eat My Shorts!'

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Thank you LewisAlexander.

As for Cena being one of the greatest, for skill, no, for accolades, yes.

In my opinion you are the greatest wrestler in the world when you hold a world title, therefore who ever has held the world title the longest should be concidered the greatest wrestler of all time.

Cena has held the world title now for 1 year and 5 days making him the 11th greatest wrestler of all time (as far as accolades are concerned).

NOTE: I know someone is going to be thinking "well who is the 1st greatest" so I'll save everyone the asking of that question and just tell you...

Bruno Sammartino: 11 years and 21 days

if you have any other queries as to who ranks where just ask me. :)

[–] packtolomeo 18 years ago

thank you lizettesunbury to make my point well when you said that bret is the best tecnichal wrestler, i know hbk is one of the best superstars of the history of wwf/wwe, but in popularity and charisma, im sorry but he will never be close to (IMHO) hulk hogan, he puts the wrestling on the map, i know he is probably overrated and all but you can never deny me that he was the greates entrettainer of all time as a wrestler, after that i think is stone cold and the the rock.

like i said i do think that hbk is one of the greatest and i can never convince you that someone is better that him but facts are facts and you just check the statistics and the history.

i think we can never will be agree with this because we can never compare each wrestler in their prime because there were different times.

just a quiestion besides of all this controversy.... in wich rank hulk hogan is in this "wrestler of all time" ranking?

thank you and keep up with the hbk, i will love to see him as a world champion once again... belive me!!

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Hulk Hogan is 2nd with a total of 6 years, 1 month and 7 days with the world title. :)

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

Cena lost the title for 2 weeks. remember that little fact there. that shortens his reign by about 2 months or so.

And titles don't mean alot unless you've gained them for a long period of time or more times than anyone else.

Cena has had it twice but his reign was about 8 months before he lost the title(woot!!) to edge but won it back(BOO!!) in 2 weeks time.

And if we go by title reigns we leave out alot of great wrestlers. Jake "The Snake" Never held any major title in the WWF and yet he is a legend and some (SOME) consider him the greatest.

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

I'm affraid if you haven't won the World Title "at least" you can not be considered as an all time great or even a legend. (In my opinion)

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

In that case David Arquette can be considered a legend? He won the World title in WCW back in the day

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

No the WCW title doesn't count for s**t. WCW was a bad federation with bad wrestlers and bad titles and nothing that happened there counts in the real World.

Also, I didn't say that if you win a World title you become a legend, I said that you can't become a legend without winning a World title.

Actually read (and try to comprehend) what people write before responding.

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

There really isn't a difference from what I read there dude. And Jake still defies your logic none-the-less. He IS a legend and he hasn't held any titles

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] chris_22_03 18 years ago

Bret Hart was a great wrestler, but Shawn Michaels was better. Bret was a great technichal wrestler, while Shawn was an incredible athlete in the ring. Shawn had the charisma and the skills to draw the poeple in. When Shawn did an interview, you listened and it was entertaining. When Bret did an interview, he looked uncomfortable. Bret's career went down the toilet when he left for WCW while Shawn took time off to recover from injuries and then returned and fought a match that ranks up near the top of his greatest matches after not stepping foot in a ring for quite some time. Bret Hart was better than 98% of all wrestler's but not better than Shawn.

[–] lobl2004 18 years ago

Shawn initially retired just so you know. He didn't take time off even though he did come back.

Your the ruler of two things. Jack and *beep* and Jack just left town.-Ash

[–] kendrasanchez 18 years ago

if you use acheivements, HHH is a 9 x world champ. so he's the best. more importantly, look at ratings. wwe ratings were at their worst while bret reigned. that says a lot. he's nowhere near the greatest of all time. look at hogan, austin, the rock and HHH, they have at one time or another carried the company to greatness or resurrected it.

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[–] kendrasanchez 18 years ago

oh yeah, and not to mention, as soon as bret was booted by vince, wwe hit an all time high in ratings. stone cold, stone cold, stone cold.

check out my movies on ebay under the name of jalvarez75

[–] Lucifer_nib_666 18 years ago

On the top of my head, the following people OWN Hart in the Ring.

Tom Billington
Randy Savage
Shawn Michaels
Antonio Inoki
Ricky Steamboat
Dean Malenko
Kenta Kobashi
Mitsuharu Misawa

Now there are a lot more but this is just to give you an idea that Hart is no where near the best in the ring.

Its Time To Rage Against The Machine

[–] kendrasanchez 18 years ago

hell yeah, preach it brother.....

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[–] Namis_est_Deus 18 years ago

Actually HHH is an 11 time World Champion (including the WCW title as a separate title while it was part of the undisputed title because it still had an individual physical belt) but that isn't as good as Bruno Sammartino who even though he was only a 2 time champ he held the belt for longer overall. (Which when you think about it is fantastic considering he had more time with the belt from 2 reigns than a guy who had 10)

I know I said the WCW title didn't count, but that was only when it was in WCW, once it came to WWE and was contested there it became a relevent title.

Jake "the Snake" Roberts is a legend yes, but not one of the greatest of all time because he never held a real World title.

[–] Jane_Doe01 18 years ago

There's just a few problems with your little post.

-The fact that it was featured in a Wrestlemania 22 discussion forum.
-The fact that you assume that all people who dislike Bret Hart are Shawn Michaels fans.
-The fact that you assume all Shawn Michaels fans don't recognize Bret's greatness.
-The fact that you're telling people whom they should be fans of.
-The fact that you expect to change people's minds by being an ego-centric, self-righteous wannabe authority on wrestling, ignoring that stuff like this is relatively subjective.
-The fact the you consider Bret to be the greatest wrestler of all-time.
-The fact that you pass off the idea of anyone disagreeing being 'gay' as a legitmate and intelligent argument suited for someone of supposedly vast wrestling knowledge.
-The fact that you claimed that Ric *beep* Flair likes Bret Hart(apparently you ignored the wrestling industry going abouts of 2004, Mr. Guru).
-The fact that you assume Chris Benoit 'came' from Bret Hart(ever heard of the Dynamite Kid?).
-The fact that you assume that those 'greats' that you mentioned, along with others don't also maintain respect for Michaels' ability.
-The fact that you're approximately 11 years old.