MovieChat Forums > Waitress (2007) Discussion > What a strange and ultimately demeaning ...

What a strange and ultimately demeaning message this films sends out.

posted 16 years ago by Paynebyname
115 replies | jump to latest

This film is billed as a delicious romantic comedy but I couldn't find any comedy and virtually no romance. Moreso it seemed to send out the strangest of messages.

This waitress lives with an abusive, dominating husband that she hates – Just leave him then.

I’m sick and tired of these stupid women who hook up with a ‘bad boy’ assuming they can change/tame him and then are surprised when they can’t. If he hits or verbally intimidates you for the first time, you decide your course of action. You give him another chance or you leave him. If he does it again and you don’t go then you’ve only got yourself to blame.

Why do these women play the goddam victim all the time? You choose who you date/marry. Your choice of partner reflects on you as a person. Maybe you should have put a little thought into it beforehand. I’m so tired of the “Oh it’s not my fault, he changed” response. This hand washing of responsibility for your plight is bollocks. The signs were there but you probably chose to ignore them.

She then gets pregnant by him, which when she does the pregnancy test is praying it comes in negative. It comes in positive but at no point does she consider termination. “The child won't have a dad but I'm going to have it anyway” is the sentiment.

Why couldn’t she terminate? She can’t stand this man yet she wants to have his child? She wants to be free and not tied down anymore yet is going to be lumbered with a child. Why have a child that is going to grow up without a father? Why can’t she think of the child’s future? If you know from the get go that it won’t have access to its father then you are affecting the child’s upbringing from the beginning. Abortions are there to correct mistakes. Granted they should not be used as contraceptive but they are there so you don’t have to go through with the birth.

She then has an affair with a married man (even though she's still married) creating a strange situation that 'she thinks nothing wrong with having an affair' but it so traditional that she couldn't entertain a termination.

I’m not comparing an affair with an abortion but again the film gives no reason as to why abortion is such a complete no-no. One makes the assumption it’s because of her moral code, religious beliefs or something else. Although the film synopsis describes her as sassy, maybe she has traditional values. The point I’m making is that her morals/values/religious beliefs don’t impede her having an affair with a married man yet prevent her from even considering an abortion.

Some will say that ‘just leaving him’ is overly simplistic but in the film she can't do this when she is without child but finds the strength to once having had a baby. Therefore implying that a baby will resolve all of your problems.

The film sends out an awful message. Basically a woman on her own isn’t strong enough or independent enough to stand up for herself but having a child and becoming a mother makes everything ok. Get out of an abusive relationship by having a child with aforementioned man, then raise the child without the balance of a fathers input. Christ, is this is the rallying call for a host of council house, single mum slags?

I find this film portrays a ridiculously old fashioned ideal that a woman is only complete when she is a mother. In my mind this is utter *beep* and couldn’t be more demeaning or un-PC to women.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] aes330 16 years ago

....Are you kidding? Seriously?

She couldn't leave him. This is made abundantly clear. She had no money. When she attempted to leave him, he caught her, and probably would have beaten the snot out of her when he got her home if she hadn't told him she was pregnant.

Still, she kept hiding her money away, waiting for the opportunity to leave. And he found it, displaying further violent tendencies in his reaction to the situation, again displaying his opinion of her as property, and then spent all the money she'd been saving to get away.

She also clearly states in the narrative that he changed after they were married, into "someone [she] feared". This would imply that she did not fear him before they were married, re: before he saw her as his legal property. And by that time, her assets were probably completely tied up with his. Surely, at first she was hoping it was a phase that would pass since it came out of no where, and by the time she accepted the fact that this was really him, she- see first and second paragraphs- had no money. You can't get very far when neither you nor any of your friends or coworkers have any money.

She also clearly states, before she discovers that she does love her child, that she respects the baby's right to live. She didn't choose for it to come into existence, but she didn't feel she had the right to terminate a life that wasn't hers. Simple as that. That basic respect is more than reason enough for an abortion to be out of the question.

Her relationship with the doctor is not based entirely on lust. That's what sparks it, some sort of connection, but it quickly becomes a giving into kindness, to the first person in so long that she's really trusted and actually had the ability to love.

The message is not that having a baby makes everything okay, or that in order to lead a fulfilling life you have to be a mother. That's Jenna's personal journey- her discovery that the thing she fears will be the heaviest anchor yet to keep her in her terrible, miserable, loveless and oppressive life turns out to be the thing SHE needed to discover actual happiness. You'll notice in the shot after they hand her the baby, it shows the two men going out of focus. Because she doesn't need a man to make her strong. She needed to see her baby to realize there was, actually, more to life. This clearly isn't everyone's path, but this isn't everyone's story. It's the story of one woman in one situation.

Would you have preferred the child be raised by her horrible, infantile, abusive husband? Seriously? I just... wow. Better a single mom than an abused one with a completely self absorbed and emotionally immature, VIOLENT father.

[–] AimJE 16 years ago

Well put aes330!

"My heart upon his warm heart lies,
My breath is mixed into his breath."
~ W. B. Yeats

[–] markkr64 16 years ago

Life in your world must be fantastic. Things seem very controlled to you. I find that life for the most part resembles a car wreck that everyone is trying to figure out the best way to get through. I think that is more what this movie is about. But if you felt enough to write 11 paragraphs on a movie that you hated, then I think the movie achieved its purpose.

[–] vampmissedith 16 years ago

First off, that is your opinion, and we are all entitled to our own opinions. So have fun living in your fantasy world.

That being said, *beep* off.

You know nothing of the real world. It must be nice living in your naive little bubble.

You kwo nothing about abuse. Anyone who says, "Why the hell doens't she just leave them?" cannot ever understand just how damaging an abusive relationship is.

And as for abortion, who teh *beep* do you think you are, telling someone what she should or should not do? Why teh *beep* should the unborn child be punished for teh father's mistakes?

Women who are abused rarely leave right off teh bat, because not only are they 1) brainwashed sometimes but 2) afraid to leave because he may have threatened her, or they feel that he will find them and do worse damage or 3) they love him.

*beep* you and your simplistic version of feminism. People who sit here and say that in order to be a feministic you must be a cock-hating bitch are only damaging to feminism. If a girl chooses to get married and have children it is her right, just as choosing to remain single and never have children is a right, as well.

I'm sorry, but you have just royally pissed me off. And I'm pretty sure you're going to bash me and reply with all of your *beep* but I honestly couldn't give a damn.

You act like abortion is just a simple matter, but it isn't--it is somethign that needs to be seriously considered.

God I hate you.

Have fun with your naive opinions. Hopefully the real world never hits you upside the head.

Do drugs. Don't live.

[–] billysoffhismeds 16 years ago

The OP conveniently left his webblog as his sig so we could get more insight into the rational behind his rant.

www.paynebyname.com

You're never really *beep* if you've got a good story and someone to tell it to. ~ Novecento

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

Thanks for pointing that out for everyone. I'm sure they wouldn't have noticed it without your input.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] reikun86 16 years ago

You also failed to consider that even if she wanted an abortion, she had no money to do so. She only had $1200 stashed away, and I doubt she'd waste any of that on an abortion.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

It's funny how she couldn't leave her husband before because he was so violent yet once she's got the money and is wheeled out of the hospital in a more physically vulnerable condition she doesn't have to worry about this violence anymore.

How come?

Do we assume that her friends who never put her up before are now happy to do so or that she can get a 'rent a security guard' in the hospital waiting room.

Oh and I also loved how she tried to hide money from her husband. Here's a tip, maybe hide it in a place where your husband is unlikely to stumble across it, ie not under the cushion or behind the cookie jar. Maybe hide it at work, bury it in the garden, maybe even freeze it in a pie.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] matt_s 16 years ago

I agree, the movie started out good, but it felt like they ran out of time at the end so they just wrapped everything up neatly. In one sudden, fell swoop, the girl leaves her husband, loves the baby she spent nine months hating, ends her affair, is happy about everything and opens up a pie shop.

My biggest gripe with this movie was the characters, all of the characters except for the nerd waitress and the sheriff of Mayberry were extremely unlikable. I understand that people have faults, but when the protagonist has major flaws they don't address...its makes for a sloppy movie.

[–] jim_p1953 16 years ago

I have no idea why Jenna didn't just leave her stupid and abusive husband earlier. I don't know why her baby's birth would have helped her gather the courage to do so. Perhaps the fact that she did so in front of witnesses would have given such a jerk pause to think before he lashed back at her. Who knows? And who cares? This was not a documentary. And if it doesn't reflect the real world, again, so what? I want to be entertained by movies. I want to go away feeling good about life. The real world too often hurts and disappoints me. What's wrong with escaping for a few hours?

[–] Carly_Corinthos1971 10 years ago

You are a misogynistic a hole who is angry because you cannot attract women. I pity you and all those that have to deal with you in real life.

"I love Sonny and Sonny loves me"-Carly Corinthos

[–] Paynebyname 9 years ago

I'm misogynistic because I think that a woman doesn't have to be a mother to be empowered??

Great deduction.

"Small moves Ellie, small moves"

[–] laurasmile00 16 years ago

info-795--clearly you are a man who has never experienced pregnancy.

I never felt like someone understood more when Keri's character Jenna comments that the baby is an alien and a parasite. There is a life growing inside you, and its draining you of your energy and making you sick, but yet it is part of you, and you begin to develop a relationship with this life growing inside you and you begin to love it. And most of all, you respect the fact that there is a life growing inside you. You don't know the future of this life. It may be great, it may be horrible, but who are you to determine that before that baby is even born. The only thing you can do is vow to do you best. And that vow is a daunting vow. Who can ever really guarantee that they will be a great parent? All you can do is try to do you best.

You know nothing about real life. You clearly live in a bubble of perfection, have never been touched by real problems such as abuse or unhappiness or near poverty. You have never had children, and if you have, you clearly let your wife do all the real worrying and thinking. Maybe you are just a less abusive version of Earl...the clueless pathetic husband, who has to rule by threats of violence to keep his fear of being left alone at bay.

Maybe your mother should have aborted you.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] mtm63 16 years ago

There are pretty much as many types of women as there are women. Same with men.

Which is why abortion is a choice.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

It is comical that because I think a woman should consider abortion, that she has to take responsibility for the man that she chose to marry or that a woman isn't only empowered when she has a child, that I know nothing of life.

If you choose to have a child by a man you don't like you must expect that he may well take an involvement in the child's upbringing. Whether you like him or not, he still has rights. If you clearly don't want any involvement then don't have the child.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] billysoffhismeds 16 years ago

I think it was Grace Kelly who once said that if every unplanned pregnancy was terminated, the majority of us wouldn't be here.

Has it even occured to you, mr paynebyname, that the only reason you're alive today is because your mother didn't "consider abortion" or think her child was something to dispose of?

Where's the husband or father's responsibility? We're talking of one particular story where a woman chooses, after putting up with emotional and physical abuse, to leave her husband. But I suspect there is a far greater occurence of men who abandon their responsibility to their spouse and children. Should the woman [ex]terminate her children in that case, too?

Honestly!

Men and women have a responsibility to treat each other with mutual respect, love and understanding. Both Jenna and Earl failed miserably on all counts.

You're never really *beep* if you've got a good story and someone to tell it to. ~ Novecento

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] AimJE 16 years ago

If you choose to have a child by a man you don't like you must expect that he may well take an involvement in the child's upbringing. Whether you like him or not, he still has rights. If you clearly don't want any involvement then don't have the child.

Tell me, Pollyanna (aka info-795), what gives him any rights since he abandoned his wife and child the hour she was born? First telling Jenna not to love her - their, rather - baby too much, then refusing to pay for even the baby's part of the hospital bill because Jenna told him to buzz off? He was nothing but an abusive, self-centered sperm donor.

"My heart upon his warm heart lies,
My breath is mixed into his breath."
~ W. B. Yeats

[–] bebe70 16 years ago

You're not equipped to understand why a woman is empowered when she has a child. You're a man, right. She became empowered because she could see the future of a life with Earl and the baby and wanted to protect her baby. There is nothing old fashioned or ridiculous about a woman feeling empowered after having a child or choosing their child over their husband if he is a piece of **** like Earl was. There is something seriously wrong if she has no feelings. I stayed with the father of my child and tried counseling and it seriously damaged her. I wanted to leave. I think single mothers should be proud if they leave their husbands for the right reasons and there is nothing wrong with the "majestic single mother" as some people have posted. Oh, by the way I don't think Earl would have been allowed to have any involvement in the child's upbringing because he was so abusive.

[–] markfilipak 14 years ago

Shut up, info-795!

You're a man. You have a right to an opinion but you have no right to preach.

Interested in collaborative work on a new type of film rating system? Contact me.

[–] dana-dennis 16 years ago

I am wondering if any of you have actually HAD a baby - it's a completely energizing and empowering moment. I can actually completely understand what she does - she falls in love with her baby and puts her life in order to make their life what it should be. That's all. And the perfect part is that she doesn't keep waiting for it to be "perfect" to put her life in order... when she's ready, she does it.

AND - I am actually a trained domestic violence counselor and the types of attitudes displayed here are the main reasons women find it so difficult to leave - they judge themselves the same way you judge them. they can't trust themselves to make the right decision after making such a "bad one" - truth is that people who abuse their partners don't usually hit them on the first date. they flatter, pamper and are so attentive that it's hard to recognize the control as it starts.

Sweet movie.

And I would love to be that good at pie. Mine are not that creative.

[–] jwickham-2 16 years ago

Are you serious? I think you should give your head a shake. If a woman is in a abusive relationship its her fault. I love the blame the victim crap.

I think this is the very opposite of demeaning because of the ending- she leaves on her own she does not run to the protection of the Doctor. She actually gains independence- sure the whole winfall is a bit unrealistic, but I think its a great story.

And un-PC to women- what does that even mean? It's movie they do not have to be PC because- here's a newsflash very few things are truly PC.

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

"Has it even occured to you, mr paynebyname, that the only reason you're alive today is because your mother didn't "consider abortion" or think her child was something to dispose of?"

What a ridiculous point. Of course I have but if I hadn't been born do you think I'd know about it?

You don't just have a child just because you got pregnant. We have moved out of the caves you know. If you've gotten pregnant by accident (sorry allowing yourself to get so drunk you couldn't fend off your husband) then there is a way out.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

"Tell me, Pollyanna (aka info-795), what gives him any rights since he abandoned his wife and child the hour she was born? First telling Jenna not to love her - their, rather - baby too much, then refusing to pay for even the baby's part of the hospital bill because Jenna told him to buzz off? He was nothing but an abusive, self-centered sperm donor."

He has some form of rights because he's the biological father. Listen, I thought he was a s*** but the difference is that you don't normally get to choose your anonymous sperm donor. She chose to have a child with Earl and hence she has to be aware that if not then, at some point in the future he will have the right to contact his daughter.

What she's saying is "I'll have your kid but I don't want anything to do with you or you with it". If she clearly doesn't want his child, or the chance of any future involvement, then have an abortion at six or seven weeks.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

"If a woman is in a abusive relationship its her fault. I love the blame the victim crap"

It's her fault if she puts up with. Despite all the psycho babble that people spout to makes excuses for people tolerating abusive partners there has to be a first time that he, or she, hits you.

You decide your course of action, if you forgive them and give them one more go then so be it. But if they do it again and you make excuses for them, then I'm sorry but an element of blame has to be on your shoulders.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] mtm63 16 years ago

I pity the women in your lives if you are *anything* like Earl.

Do some research before mouthing off about how easy it is to leave--I'm sure it hasn't *all* been done by women (should be read with appropriate sarcastic inflection).

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] AimJE 16 years ago

One of the above posters mentioned that her mentality was such that she wanted Earl as a sperm donor, but didn't want anything else to do with him.

No Dreamkilla2000, I didn't say that's what she wanted. I said that's all he was. She didn't want to get pregnant. But granted, even though she'd quit having sex with her bum of a husband, she should have been using birth control, just to be on the safe side. I hope that clears things up, and of course, it's just my opinion.

"My heart upon his warm heart lies,
My breath is mixed into his breath."
~ W. B. Yeats

[–] littlekaren 16 years ago

Guess you can't relate to it. None of my friends can related to my own, decades long marriage, which includes no love or laughter on my part and the occasional verbal abuse. When I get up enuf nerve, like Jenna, I'll do something about it. Jenna just had to wait til the time was right; luckily, her affair gave her courage.

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

"Do some research before mouthing off about how easy it is to leave"

What research would that be? Research into the weakness of some people to tolerate being treated like s**t and doing nothing about it.

And why do I need to do research. I don't need to go to the Antartic to form an opinion that it's cold there so why do I have to have been in an abusive relationship, been a counsellor or witnessed it first hand to have an opinion?

If people took a little more care in their partner selection, didn't ignore the warning signs that would be apparent or maybe stopped going for the exciting, dangerous 'bad boy or girl' they wouldn't find themselves in a position where they blame everyone but themselves.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] mtm63 16 years ago

You need to to do research before you mouth off on a topic about which you know nothing. You are ignorant in the extreme on this topic. However, if appearing as an ignoramus doesn't bother you, then have at. Just be aware--to an informed person, or one who has experienced this type of abuse, that *is* how you will appear.

Also, you apparently missed the part in the film where she packed a bag, and was waiting for a bus when he pulled up, slapped her, threw her into the car and shoved her head into the window at least twice. That experience might be a bit off-putting re: another attempt, wouldn't you say? You acknowledge that earl is a s***--take it a little farther and try to understand how a *woman* feels when treated like this.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

"You need to to do research before you mouth off on a topic about which you know nothing."

I'll say it again as you seem as incapable of reading as I do of 'understanding'. How do you know I know nothing? Is 'how to receive abuse' only genetically programmed into women, is it a pamphlet only given to girls at school. Why can't a man have an opinion or some valid thoughts?

Are you only allowed an opinion if you have been a counsellor or in an abusive relationship? If so, that's utter crap.

"understand how a *woman* feels when treated like this"

I didn't miss that part and I can understand that no one likes being treated like this. But if you don't like it then YOU (ie the individual) need to do something about it.

As much as you say 'that's too simplistic' ultimately it isn't. You can dress it up with psychological nonsense as much as you like but if someone treats you bad and they don't want to change then you need to leave.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] mtm63 16 years ago

You can have whatever opinion you like--but on the subject of why women (or men, less frequent, but it does happen) stay in abusive relationships, yours is an uninformed opinion. Have you ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? That's what they call what happens to a kidnap victim and the kidnapper (Patty Hearst being a famous example). The constant threat of abuse and controlling behavior has a decided effect on people.

I pointed out the part in the film because you were annoyed she didn't leave. That scene explains why she was working on another, slower plan.

I believe that if you did some research on the subject instead of just mouthing off, you would learn somethng. "psychological nonsense" Good God. The word Neanderthal comes to mind. Everything you say is based on your "opinion", not on experience, not on looking into the subject, not on interviewing people who have suffered such treatment. Because it's your opinion it's true? Sorry, hon. The world doesn't work that way. I hope to high heaven that no one you care about is suffering in this way--it could harm your self esteem to have your opnion blown out of the water.

I'm done. If you wish to be ignorant, no one else can do anything about it.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] mtm63 16 years ago

No, they don't KNOW anything but their OPINIONS carry more weight than
facts. *snort*

If that was your experience you were speaking of, I hope you are well out of it.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

mtm63 - With the greatest of respect, you know nothing about what I have and haven't experienced. Is it not possible that I could have read all the info and made myself 'informed' and still not have the same opinion as you. No, of course not. To have an opinion different to yours makes me ignorant.

I've never said my opinion was fact but you were the one berating me for 'mouthing off' on something I knew nothing about. When you are bandying around accusations that I'm a neanderthal and my thoughts have no validity listen to your own rhetoric for a moment.

I know nothing but if I did investigate it further I would come round to your opinion because that is apparently fact.

I'm also aware of the Stockholm Syndrome so please don't attempt to impress me with your nonsense. Most relationships don't start with kidnapping I believe.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

NavyET JasminMoran - How dare I what? Have an opinion different to yours. If you could attempt to read or process the information through the layer of red mist I keep saying that the Abuser is the bad person. The abused though has to take some responsibility for themselves.

“You have no idea what it's like to wake up next to a completely different person than you went to bed with” – No I don’t because in reality that’s *beep* They don’t wake up a completely different person. They may have grown to be that person but a good decent person does not suddenly flip overnight. If you claim they have it’s because you were stupidly blind to all the signs that would have been there.

“How terrifying it is to know that the man you love, trust, and would do anything for, is the one hurting you the most.” – Then why would you love, trust and do anything for him. How stupid are you? Despite all the romantic love songs that you might delude yourself with, Love isn’t written in a stone. It’s a second hand emotion and you can fall out of love with someone.

“It's not easy to just forget all the good times because of something that could very much be a phase.” – It already sounds like you are ready to dismiss his action again and hope that he will change. This speaks to the very heart of the problem. People deluding themselves that they should give them another go because they’ve invested so much time.

“taking the life of an innocent child.” – Please cut the drama and hysterical language. Having an abortion at six or seven weeks is not murdering an innocent child. It’s a slowly developing foetus that will become a child. Do you consider the morning after pill a termination as well then?

“She saw that she didn't need a man to be happy. “ – And this statement sums up what’s wrong with the message in this film. Not that she doesn’t need a man but that only a baby can make a woman happy. That only when a woman becomes a mother is she fully empowered and all her troubles will disappear.

Maybe I’m an idiot but having no common sense is an interesting statement. I’d say my arguments speak more about common sense (If someone treats you bad, you don’t let them) rather than the layers and layers of excuses that you are spouting.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] AimJE 16 years ago

Dreamkilla2000, may I ask if you're married or involved in a serious relationship? If you think being slapped in the face as a "love tap," think again. Jenna was trying to leave for good but you saw what happened. He hit her and shoved her face into the window of the car before she told him she was pregnant. Then he wanted her to terminate the pregnancy, except he was afraid what might happen to him in "the here-after." What a pussy.
You said you're a male, but are you a man? Would you have a wife so scared of you that she's almost always pathetically submissive? Allow her to work but not only deny her a car but demand her tips and paycheck the minute you picked her up from work? Know you had to get her drunk to have sex with her? Tell her not to love the child you conceived together more than you? Keep tabs on her every minute of every day? Treat her like nothing more than a piece of property? I bet his lawn-mower got more affection from him than she did.
Someone said she didn't owe him fidelity. I disagree with that. If you make those vows, you should respect them. He didn't treat her with love and care, but that didn't give her an "out." She should have left him before starting an affair, but you saw what happened when she tried to do that. If you think Earl was a really cool, righteous guy, I'm just wondering, are you Darwin's missing link? I hope not.

"My heart upon his warm heart lies,
My breath is mixed into his breath."
~ W. B. Yeats

[–] mtm63 16 years ago

It's not an opinion on my part. The documentation and the experts in spousal abuse say you are wrong.

How much *do* you know?

Your posts ( e.g. 3rd & 4th paragraph of your initial post) showed me an attitude that said "I'm right." If I mis-interpreted that (easy enough to do when all one has is the printed word), I apologize. I don't think you posted anything else that swayed me from my opinion of your level of knowledge after that, however. As you didn't seem familiar with all the ramifications of spousal abuse, I thought you might be able to relate to the Stockholm Syndrome. lol...trust me, I'd have had a better description of it had I been trying to show off. The reference was just to point out what kind of effect abuse and control can have on a human being. If the one isn't "psychological nonsense", then the other most likely isn't, either. *shrug* Perhaps you just don't believe in any kind of psychological problem.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] AimJE 16 years ago

Dreamkilla2000, I suggest you watch the movie again. Earl won't let Jenna have a car, demands she give him the tips and paycheck she earns at work, refuses to give her money if she asks for it, tells her she can't go to the pie-baking contest, hits her when she tried to leave, throws a tantrum when he found out she was hiding money from him, even wants her to terminate her pregnancy because he doesn't want her to love her baby more than him. Does that sound like a good guy to you? Jenna is far from flawless, but she admits it and does the right thing in the end. Sure, she could have let Earl down easier, but - in my opinion - I don't think he deserved to be treated with kid gloves. He was the king of his castle, and he didn't give a damn about how anyone else felt. He was an insecure bully and an idiot. Bad combo. I wouldn't want a man like that around me or my child. As I suggested, you should watch the movie again and listen more closely to the dialogue.

"My heart upon his warm heart lies,
My breath is mixed into his breath."
~ W. B. Yeats

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

I'm not regarding life as disposable and we aren't talking about throwing a child in the fire here, we are talking about someone who doesn't want a child and the ability to terminate if need be.

You might consider my attitude sad but I consider yours irresponsible. Bringing a child into the world when you

a. Don't want it
b. Don't want it to have any contact with it's father

is pointless and foolish in my opinion.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

Ha, ha, that's a classic. I've now been told that my opinion has no validity because

a. I'm a man
b. I've not been in an abusive relationship or been a counsellor
c. And now because of my age and generation.

It's the very enormity, responsibility and commitment of having a child that makes me say that if you aren't ready for it, have no intention of bringing it up with two loving parents and don't actually want it then you just don't proceed with it on a whim.

You take the advances that modern medical care has to offer and you have, or at least consider, an abortion way before the recommended cut off date. You just don't blunder on through your 'fairytale mist' with no thought because you either fancy 'having a kid' or because some old duffer berated you that 'abortion was the easy way out'.

www.paynebyname.com

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

So am I dismissive of human life because I don't think that abortion is the devils work and has a place in society if women choose to take it.

Or am I dismissive because I'm suggesting that people should take responsibility for their lives and their choices and not blame others, changes in society, psychological pressures etc or make excuses for their partners ("going through a phase").

I may be painting things in black and white but fundamentally I'm saying that nobody has to tolerate being in an abusive relationship and the only person that can make the change with any certainty is the one being abused.

Tell me, oh wise older generation. Do you sanction abortion in the case of rape or is this subscribing to the throwaway culture as well?

www.paynebyname.com

[–] mtm63 16 years ago

The point is that Jenna *chose* (thereby taking responsibility) not to abort. *You* may think she should
have--but it wasn't her way. Along with which, there would have been no story without the pregnancy. Perhaps you missed it, but in another post I gave the history of the idea of the birth of a child being a transforming event as it pertains to this film. Adrienne Shelley was at least ambivalent about being pregnant--when her daughter (who played Lulu at the end of the film) was born, she found it to be a transforming experience. Having had two children, I concur.

This is a movie, not a documentary. Saying "Why didn't she do thus and such" is pointless.

I'm older, but am pro-choice. It is also not clear to me that the other poster is not--just that s/he finds your attitude unacceptable.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] mtm63 16 years ago

khg-

Not sure how you define generation--Info is only five years younger than you.
Just found it curious--I expected you'd be my age (55) or older.

Gotta go. Kisses.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Paynebyname 16 years ago

It’s all very well to blame people for not ‘working at something’ but it doesn’t always work.

Look at the amount of parents who stay together in a loveless, squabbling marriage for the sake of the children. They think they are providing stability for the kids but ultimately they are just exposing their children to their soap opera histrionics and the sight of their parents clearly not getting on.

Because they are ‘working at something’ which is clearly dead, all they are doing is causing more pain for their children than if they had split earlier in less acrimonious circumstances.

Thanks for checking out my site.

Oh and I loved your little microwave routine. Wow, that was so funny and so clever. Thank god comic genius still resides with the older generation!

www.paynebyname.com

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] owenrcarpenter 16 years ago

Much has been posted here in regards to Earl's 'rights' in regard to Jenna and his daughter Lulu. I think it's about time that someone made clear what those rights actually were.

1) He had the right to remain silent.

2) He had the right to a lawyer.

3) If he could not afford a lawyer, he had the right to one appointed by the court.

Earl was a criminal. He struck Jenna and stole her money. He struck Jenna when she was pregnant, and that meant he was striking Lulu too. Jenna could have lost her baby as a result of the abuse she recieved. This is how much Earl thought of his daughter. If Jenna had pressed charges against Earl, he could have gone to jail for what he had done. Instead she let him off easy. She just told him to split. Some people might argue that Jenna should have insisted that Earl get 'help' to change his violent behaviour, thus giving him a chance to redeem himself. A case could have be made for this - unless one factors in the presence of the baby. Once Lulu was born, Jenna's only priority was the health and safety of her child. Earl had proven himself to be a clear and present danger and Jenna's decision to make a clean break was the only rational one.

Does Earl have no other rights than the ones outlined above? Sure he does. He has the right to petition the court for access to his daughter - perhaps he could even use some of the money he stole from Jenna to pay for the lawyer. If he can establish himself to be a trustworthy individual, he then may be granted visitation rights. But somehow I don't think Earl would be interested. I think it more likely that he will spend his time and money hanging around singles bars looking for some other poor bitch to reel in and use as a punchbag.

Happy Trails, Earl!

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] markfilipak 14 years ago

Shut up, info-795!

You're a man. You have a right to an opinion but you have no right to preach.

Interested in collaborative work on a new type of film rating system? Contact me

[–] Carly_Corinthos1971 10 years ago

You are an idiot.

"I love Sonny and Sonny loves me"-Carly Corinthos