Just saw this film


I just saw this film on TVO (Television Ontario), and it was very good.
Just an hour long, but it taught me about something that I didn't even knew existed, the Armenian Genocide by the hands of the Turks.
You start to get the feeling that the film is biased and one-sided, but in the latter half of the doc it gives you the other side of the argument, weak as it is.
And it does acknowledge the violence on the part of Armenian terrorists.

Still, it is clear to me that Turkey needs to fess up it's mistakes and apologize to the Armenian people.

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I'd have really liked to see this film, but alas i live in England and we don't have TVO. The Turkish Government still denies it ever happened and them admitting that it did in fact happen is not even criteria for their admission to the EU. I hope they never get accepted into the EU, it will be a big mistake, it must be resisted at all costs. Turkey still illegally occupies Northern Cyprus and refuses to give it back, i believe their motto is, "What we have taken we will never give back." I saw that painted on a mountain when i went to Cyprus, the Cypriots have to see that everyday. The fact remains that their government consists of a bunch of liars and murderers (directly and indirectly), we should not trust them.

This is what happened to a Turkish author who mentioned the fact that many Armenians were murdered... the source is http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/31/AR2005083102291.html

ISTANBUL, Aug. 31 -- An acclaimed Turkish novelist, Orhan Pamuk, has been charged with the "public denigrating of Turkish identity" and faces a possible prison sentence of three years, his publisher said Wednesday.

The charge stems from an interview that Pamuk gave to a Swiss newspaper in February in which he said certain topics were regarded as off-limits in Turkey. As examples, he listed the massacre of Armenians in 1915 and the ongoing war between Turkish security forces and Kurdish guerrillas.
Orhan Pamuk, 53, had discussed the 1915 massacre of Armenians and the war against Kurdish guerrillas. (Murad Sezer - AP)

"Thirty-thousand Kurds were killed here, 1 million Armenians as well. And almost no one talks about it," Pamuk told the newspaper, Tages-Anzeiger. "Therefore, I do."

They eventually let him off, not because they wanted to, but because they wanted to prove to the EU that they were a civilised country that allowed free speech...pffft. Here is another article on why they dropped the charges amid death threats to him...http://www.slate.com/id/2134828/

Oh yes, and let's not forget that 'honour killings' are still practiced by Turkish people...
More about recent honour killings here, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4905758.stm

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hardly anyone in the US knows about this, or that the genocide's success (and the fact that it was mostly ignored by the rest of the world) "inspired" Hilter to go ahead and try to wipe out the jews.


Knowing what I know about these events, I get kind of sick to my stomach every time some ambitious business person is referred to as a "young turk."

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I agree about the "Young Turk" reference. If you ever happen on anyone who uses that term in front of you, the ONLY response to it is education -- even in the middle of an auditorium, if that's where the term is used. It shouldn't matter where and when it's being used. The use of it is enough to stop the activity and "educate" them about its meaning. We should be offended by its use and our anger at its use should be expressed right then and there. That's the only way to educate people. Hit them hard and they'll remember it. Ignore it and they'll continue to use the term without ever having knowledge of its meaning. And if they have been educated about its meaning, but continue to use the term, what else would be required to have a full handle on that person? That's a person who doesn't deserve any respect and should, therefore, be carefully watched. Just "watched" -- nothing more. We have to live in this world and accept all of its "cracks", not to come off as preachy here or anything -- because I AM NOT preaching, at all!

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[deleted]

I am glad that you liked this film but I think you are wrong when you are saying that this documentary was fair enough to give the other side's argument and it was very weak. What did you expect? Did you really think that Andrew Goldberg had the courage to bring the real scholars and true Turkish intellectuals on screen and let them destroy his the doc.'s main purpose-to brainwash public with the so called "genocide"? Of course not. Of course they will design the interview as they plan and edit their footage to make it sound as weak and ridicilous as they can make. I think you are missing the point. Turks (us) do not deny that Armenians got killed and I am not proud of that at all. What we will never accept is the word "genocide" because it is unproven. If it is true I am challenging you, Andrew Goldberg and the world to prove it. As you know a doc. that was funded by Armenian Lobby cannot be a proof. Armenians couldn't prove it for 91 years in any legitimate way in any court. Therefore they now choose to fund films like that which can be treachery but powerful, in order to fool the public and force Turkiye to accept it.

If you accuse someone or some country with such a big unhuman act, you must prove the crime. If not, you are the one who should be punished. Yes, we also have a problem with claimed number; 1.5 million. In 1914, not Ottoman but according to British, French and German censuses, there were only 480000 Armenians in the world. (If not believe a Turk, look at Europe or American archives)However, we can and are proving that Armenian terrorists killed 520000 Turkish civilians while their husbands, fathers and sons were fighting in the border against Europeand invaders (French, English, Italian and Russia).

Does the doc. talk about that too? Also most of the pictures you saw in that doc. do not belong to Armenians. For example the skulls in a pyramid shape is from 1871 painting (“The Apotheosis of War”) by Russian artist Vassili Vereshchagin. Is what Goldberg is doing an ethical way of filmmaking? Is this a humanistic act?

So tell me, if this documantary is all about facts and there is really a genocide, why do they need to lie like that in such a "powerful" film? Why can't Armenians still sue Turkiye and prove this "genocide" and punish us in a world court? It shouldn't be that difficult since Turks are hated by almost every western country and Armenians have money for the best lawyers. You know why because they do not have any proof about the act of genocide in 1915. You know why, because you cannot prove something that didn't happen.

You can call me a denier because, I am simply challenging the accuser who doesn't have any facts but money and power to manipulate them.

I am not an Armenian hater and I hope Armenian youth who are actually are my brothers and sisters, will see the truth one day and then we will have peace and as they apologize from us for our sorrow and backstabbing us in 1915, 70 million people will apologize for their sorrow as well.

If you don't mind I will also add a link here for those who are interested in hearing the "real" other side before they jump to the conclusion. This site is actually done by an American:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/background.htm

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Read my other post about this person's referenced website -- "tallarmeniantale" -- and the fraud that it is. Visit the "Ararat" board to get an idea of how transparent its distortions, fabrications, and lies are.

This guy is a snake oil salesman, brainwashed by his government. His ancestors were rapists, murderers, and monsters who committed some of the most inhuman violence against mankind. The only thing this person should be at this time is ashamed, ashamed for attempting to deceive people into thinking that his ancestors were not responsible for a genocide that the majority of scholars -- from around the world -- and the overwhelming evidence -- from several countries around the world -- have proven to be fact.

This person needs an immediate wake-up call -- because his country has one of the worst histories of mankind. That's another thing he should be ashamed of.

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You are funny. Nothing else. Poor guy, look at the mirror to see a brainwashed person.
Have you ever been in Turkiye in your life? "ararat" board? Voawww, it must be all true because it's called ararat, i guess.

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No, it's true because the evidence has proven it (the Armenian Genocide) to be true. We don't need to go to "Turkiye" to know that it's a repressive society. Official reports state it.

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i have to say i'm not too big on politics&haven't read up on the armenian genocide exclucively, but your little profile there was completely uncalled for&i couldn't help but take offense. since you're so obviously misinformed i'd like to point our that the "snake oil salesmans" you speak of with any idea of what's going on in their country feel that the turkish should have been more honest about the genocide in the first place, don't think admission into the eu isn't such a good idea, &are critical of their government to say the least.

His ancestors were rapists, murderers, and monsters who committed some of the most inhuman violence against mankind. -lame. really lame, for someone who dares to claim he's educated. assuming you're of the white race(&if you're not, take this as an example-just felt i needed this declaimer) don't you think they TOO need to apologize for all the enslavery, land theft and discrimination they subjected, say, native americans, africans, aboriginals, indians...the aftermath of which is still causing harm TODAY? so why this raging blinkered hate towards one race, THE TURKS?

i'm not proud of my anicent history(it's questionable whether i descended from ghenghis khan himself&it's not my fault if i did) but i'm not ashamed of it either, but what i am proud of is that i don't need my ancestors to feel proud of myself, and most of all, that i don't condone racism or false information like the likes of you yourself do.

"funny" - i completely agree with my fellow turk there. i hope i succeeded in EDUCATING you a bit but i somehow doubt it.

good day!

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Hate Turks? No. Hate the fact that Turks, on the average, have denied the genocide for decades? Very much.

We're not posting messages of hate. We're posting information about the genocide. But when some people come to these boards and post messages that taunt the survivors and their descendants, or attack the victims and mock their deaths, accusing them of exaggeration, the least that I and others can do is respond with forceful messages.

No one is saying that today's Turks are responsible for the genocide, as in having a hands-on part in it. But they are responsible for the campaign of denial.

The good news in all of this is that more and more Turks are rejecting their government's fabricated version of events and standing up for the truth by opening themselves up and accepting the evidence that their ancestors committed genocide against the Armenian people.

How do you expect us to respond when there are people out there who accuse the victims of being the criminals? How some people -- some Turks, to be accurate -- don't see that there was a genocide against the Armenian people at the hands of their ancestors is offensive to anyone with any degree of sensitivity. The evidence is overwhelming, and yet they don't accept any of it because 1) either they're in severe denial or 2) they know it happened, but must defend their ancestor's "honor" and reject all claims or 3) they've been thoroughly brainwashed by their government from decades of controlled education, being fed false and fabricated information that suits their interests.

How would you feel if the children of the murderer of your loved ones -- knowing with overwhelming proof of that person's guilt -- defended that person and showed no compassion toward you or the victim -- your murdered loved ones? How would you feel if they took the evidence, evidence that proves the murderer's guilt, and reshaped it so that it looked like the victims -- your loved ones -- were actually the criminals, and the "reshaping" of the evidence was terribly done and obvious? That's what the Turkish government has done. But the great thing to come out of that is that every other nation shares the same perspective on the factual evidence and is aware of the fabrications of the Turkish government. They know the information that the Turkish government has is false and fabricated -- all meant to support their interests, not the truth.

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i agree vaguely with(as i said it would be falsehood if i claimed to be highly knowledgeable about politics) what is said of the anger caused by the denial of our government. yet from what i understand the word "genocide" is a decisive factor here--too strong a word when you bring to mind all the other genocides that have occured throughout the history of mankind. anyway, this is not what i wished to stress...

...as much as the mode of delivery in this thread, that pissed me off. the generalisations i came across were really a bit too much(being sick about the "young turk" business&especially the ridiculous claim someone made about the genocide having influenced hitler, which btw i'm not blaming you for, plus the highly offensive implications you made towards all turks in your past comment) i believe there's two sides to everything concerning war, &that the actions of both nations bred more violence, &that each nation should be willing to face up to it...i'm not defending anyone&neither are as large a number of turks of my generation as to be subjected to such generalisation. hatred only breeds more hatred.

everyone's going to say something to redeem their nation..."oh, but the armenians killed the turkish diplomats" "but the turks slaughtered the kurds and the armenians" "yeah, but the kurds subjected us to terror..." so on&so on, &if our generation have any hope of going anywhere it's to stop the cycle of hatred&prejudice, or our actions will be too shadowed by it to start anything constructive...both nations must understand each other to avoid acting this way. again, i'm not denying or defending anything here, but if i started stating all my complaints against my government or the injustices in the world in general, i'd never stop. so that's not the issue here.

when i meet a german the first thing that comes to my mind is not "sup nazi". you'd have to agree with me, therefore, that some of the comments in this thread really touch the same nerve. again, i'm not saying those comments all belonged to you in particular, but it was your final comment that threw me. i do have to say it comes off rather uneducated when people carry such bias as if it was i or other turks of my generation who personally murdered your loved ones, or as if turkey today consists completely of 70 million crazed, blindly self-righteous, raping barbarians.

but if you really want me to be honest about the genocide business, i'd say that we're here hating each other&trying to deal with it because our grandfathers screwed each other over&no one wants to be honest about the entire thing to this day. i've read so many explanations&interprerations that really nothing is going to be clear till BOTH sides lay their cards on the table(not to mention the several other nations that stir things up by meddling with this affair for their own interests). but as i said, i'm not trying to reason anything with you on that level.

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At first how could you be so cruel under the attitude to Turks?You dont even know them,dont have any idea what happened there during that time except these half false information. Indeed even more number of turks were killed during that time.And I have proof of my words. And I was shoked when I had read all this messages that u have wrote. Only absolutly very ignorant person can speak about a whole state in this way, you are pinching human rights!

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The genocide is a fact of history, supported by overwhelming evidence within the archives of numerous nations. The only evidence that Turks present are from "Turkish" archives. Turkey has had several decades to "cleanse" their archives. Every other source of information points to support the claim of genocide, whereas Turkish sources of information reflect Turkish views.

So look at it this way -- Who are you going to believe?

1) Everyone else, which consists of the majority of historians, numerous nations, overwhelming amount of documents in several archives.

2) Turkey and its archives.

The ratio of support for the claim of genocide to Turkey's position that there wasn't a genocide is extremely large. Far more "official" and "non-official" sources accept the fact of the "overwhelming evidence" that the Ottoman Turks carried out a plan of genocide against the Armenians.

Instead of whining and saying that you have "proof" of your words, show it. It has been proven that the only outlet that Turks look to for their "proofs" are Turkish-created or funded sources. Why don't you ask a neutral party about the validity of the genocide? That's what you Turks dont' seem to understand. How is it that more and more people, including your allies, have taken a look at the evidence and have come to agree that your ancestors committed a genocide against the Armenian people?

Nearly everyone on earth who has studied the subject matter and examined the evidence agrees that there was a planned program of genocide that your ancestors carried out against the Armenian people. What Turks need to understand is that denying those facts won't make those facts go away.

As for the claim that Hitler spoke of the Armenian genocide before he ordered his killers to do the same, that too has been studied and examined, and has been found to be true. It's documented in many official quarters, and the occurrence of it is displayed in museums, informing visitors of the statement.

Educate yourselves outside of Turkey. Then you'll know what "truth" is.

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The Armenian genocide claims are based on fragmented history. Indeed many Armenians faced cruelty and died during WW1. But it does not meet the conditions of genocide, because it was not aimed to eradicate the Armenians. The Armenian population around Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo were largely left alone, rather mostly those in eastern Anatolia were forced to reallocate. Also it is important to know the Armenians in the east supported a foreign invading army and were in armed rebellion, this in combination with the fact the Armenian communities outside eastern Anatolia were largely kept intact makes it hard to claim any intend to eradicate the Armenian population and thus genocide.

Rather the Ottoman Empire, under the Young Turks, is guilty of attempting of ethnic cleansing (to be precise ethnic cleansing based on religious discrimination) of the eastern Anatolian lands by deporting the local Armenian population, in order to secure and keep eastern Anatolia peaceful (for the Turkish/Kurdish population) and intact against the threat of the Russian army. And more importantly the 3 Pasha's and the commanders overseeing the deportation are guilty for war crimes for making no attempt to secure and even purposely neglecting the safety and health of the deported Armenians, leading to a high casualties.

The Turkish Republic can only be blamed for that she ignored the verdicts of the Ottoman courts which tried some of the Ottoman military/political leaders responsible for the Armenian deportation and the following deaths of Armenians.
And more importantly that the Republic took a passive if not neglecting attitude in condemning all whom were accountable for the Armenian deportation victims, yet one must realise this is hardly a reason or condition to confirm such serious allegation as genocide.

If the acknowledgement of genocide is the result of political lobbying rather than scientific research then I am afraid the meaning of genocide will get corrupted, we as humanity will forget the lessons from it and subsequently we will be bound to repeat the greatest form of injustice and inhumanity.

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Cid82,
You're severly misinformed. The ratio of proven evidence and confirmation of the genocide to that of the Turkish position -- that there wasn't a "genocide" -- is so disproportionate that the only reason to have any discussion about the subject is to inform people like yourself that you have been proven wrong by both the overwhelming evidence -- that there in fact was a plan of genocide against the Armenian people -- and official scholarly studies, all of whom confirm every aspect of the fact that Ottoman Turkey intended to exterminate the Armenians.

Flush your "definition" down the toilet, and then take a close look at the "real" evidence, as opposed to what the controlled Turkish version of the events are described as by the Turkish government. Point blank, what the average Turk -- due to the deceptive practices of the Turkish government -- understands about the genocide is completely opposite of what the facts are. Everyone but the average Turk and those in the pockets of Turks agrees that the Ottoman Turks committed genocide, based on the overwhelming evidence.

Oh, I'm sure not according to your finely-tuned "definition".

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Sawyereno,

Any legal or historical perspective is lacking in your claims on the Armenian genocide allegations. Arguments in the perspective of; "Everyone accepts genocide but the average Turk", echoes the political struggle rather than academic approach. In fact your arguments are on par with political lobbying. But recognition of genocide is not an idols contest; genocide can only and purely be the result of research by academic method, if not it will be deprived of its legal value.

Now I understand that among the Armenians there is a strong need to hold someone responsible for the victims of the deportation and the excessive deaths as a result of this and receive a form of recognition from other nations, but this does not grant those who act in support of this recognition the right to abuse such recognition by holding the responsibility beyond of what is justifiable on academic basis and to seek that by winning for such cause through the national representative assemblies of influential nations and in retro perspective, claim that the academic foundation for recognition has been laid down and these nations hold truth for that.

Such approach is unsatisfactory if not unethical lay as foundation for the recognition of genocide, because the analytic process from an academic approach is lacking and the judgmental/declarational perspective prevails indicating the controversy of political versus legal approach on genocide recognition.

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We don't rely on "everyone accepts Genocide" to prove the Genocide. We merely state a known fact to reflect the state of affairs with respect to Genocide recognition. I agree that the Armenian Genocide cannot be accepted without academic research--in fact, that is precisely why it's accepted by everyone except Turks. Scholars ouside Turkey have studied the evidence for 90 years, and have arrived at the irrevocable conclusion--that Turkey committed the Armenian Genocide. They did so based on the overwhelming evidence, part of which has been posted elsehwere on this board.

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Well.. First of all one thing I don't understand is why people are trying to turn this into a one sided argument. Imagine a court room where plaintiff speaks on behalf of the defendant. Defense attorney is not allowed to question the witness. You see an hour long argument about plaintiff's story but 10 minutes for the other side and defendant only gets to answer the questions that were directed to them by plaintiff's attorney. That will surely make defendant look guilty. And that is just ridiculous. Why do you think the discussion between Turkish and Armenian scholars got cancelled? Why do you think that another documentary called 'Armenian Revolt' which would be broadcasted back to back with Armenian Genocide got cancelled? PBS says bombing threats and protests..
Why do you think England passed a law to incarcerate people who deny the genocide? Why do you think France is trying to pass a law for the very same purpose? What happened to freedom of speech? Values of EU? And after all how can people blame Turkey for Orhan Pamuk case? Honestly do you think this guy received any penalty? Nothing happened.
Every year Turkish government invited researchers to work on the issue and they say they'll accept whatever comes out. Armenians refuse it. They say 'You'll accept it'. If you have a solid argument, wouldn't you be willing to argue it so you win the discussio in front of everybody? Or you skip the discussions between historians and make movies, pass laws to make people think the way you want them to think..
And that guy down there who claims that it inspired Hitler. You should read some history. It is another made up argument to support Armenian case. In the actual speech (which was used in Nuremberg Tribunal) there's no mention about Armenians or Armenian genocide. Moreover it is something he said before and about invasion of Poland and has nothing to do with Holocaust. If you look closely you'd see that many Armenian arguments were not considered evidence in a court of law.
Not to mention that Talaat Pasha was found not guilty by German court about genocide issue. Also 144 high-ranked Turkish officials were detained in Malta for 30 months and after 30 months of pre-trial investigation, case dropped due to lack of evidence. Did the documentary mention any of these?

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[deleted]

Blind, noone (except Turkey) is trying to turn this into a one sided argument. Turkey has argued its case for 90 years. The scholarly community outside Turkey has found Turkey's case the losing one. They have also found, based on the overwhelming evidence, that the Genocide did happen.

There have been no bomb threats against PBS. PBS must have cancelled the Turkish documentary because, as the PBS said, the vast majority of historians accept Genocide as fact. For the same reason, they are not going to air a documentary on Holocaust denial.

In fact, the fact that Turkey has laws banning admission of the Genocide shows that it is Turkey that's against honest discussions. As far as European laws against Genocide discussion is concerned, it is completely consistent with principles of freedom of speech. Under the same principles, Holocaust denial is forbidden too. Historians have had 90 years to examine the Turkish POV, and they have concluded that it's fake.

Turkey doesn't invite all historians to Turkey, but only historians from Armenia. It would be pointless for Armenian historians to go to Turkey--Turkish historians will never accept the Genocide (after all, they would be prosecuted, as they are now), and the project would go to a dead end. Turkey is merely trying to turn this into a historical dispute between Armenia and Turkey, which is not the case. The Genocide is a proven fact that concerns the entire humanity.

The rest of your post are the regular Turkish fabrications that I am sure you picked up from Turkish websites. Hitler did mention the Armenian Genocide in his speech to justify the Holocaust. Turkish officers in Malta were released not due to lack of evidence, but as a concession to Kemalist government. Talaat and the other perpetrators of the Genocide were found guilty by Turkish court and sentenced to death. Every single one was executed by Armenians later.

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Tigran,
The Malta pre-trial investigation documents are available at University of Michigan library. If you don't believe me just go to their library catalog and check. You can find notes about 'lack of evidence' in those documents. 30 months is a really long time for pre-trial investigation. If they could have found evidence during that period, court would have made a decision and they wouldn't have been released. So let's not play word games. They were released because there was no evidence when they were asked to be released. If this had been a lawful internment they should have either been released or sentenced in a period less than 30 months. At the time Ottoman archives were in Istanbul and Istanbul was under British control. They had access to Ottoman documents, Blue Book (published by British propaganda office) was written by that time, letters forged by Andonian were also published well before they were released. These sources are still the foundations of Armenian thesis. But for some reason British thought they wouldn't be considered evidence in a court of law. The documents are still the same documents. They were not considered evidence at the time. They are still not for real historians. But for documentaries on PBS and propaganda who cares about being factual, right? Keep referring to these documents sure ignorant people will believe it.

Nuremberg tribunal minutes are available online. There's no mention about Armenian Genocide.

If a ban against talking about something is not against principle of freedom of speech I have nothing further to say about your understanding of the concept.

Turkey invites all historians. Most so-called Armenian Genocide scholars happen to be Armenians. Some of them are in the US. Dennis Papazian from UMich was also invited he decided not to show up.

It is pointless not to discuss something because you think the other side may not accept what you said. This is a discussion, everyone puts their documents on the table. Armenian documents fail to mention many FACTs. That's why Turkish scholars may deeply undermine Armenian case which Armenians wouldn't like. I don't think that not discussing leads to a better end than discussing.

About the PBS issue it was on Daily Telegraph. BBC website also mentions the reasons which had nothing to do with what you said. I also e-mailed PBS personally and they said they had to cancel it due to pressure and protests from Armenian community. I'd rather believe in my direct communication with PBS than your 'as PBS said..' story. Maybe they decided to soften their tone, not to piss of Armenian community. Also you're not making any sense, if that had been the case, they wouldn't have asked questions to historians supporting the Turkish thesis. As I said this way it is easier to lead it where they want to by asking questions to fit their storyline, rather than trying to understand or reflect the standpoint as a whole.

I'd recommend you read the Armenian POV and track the sources yourself and skip the Armenian websites. If you google you'll see that there are thousands of websites by Armenian initiatives which emerged all of a sudden as if directed centrally. This also shows that it is basically propaganda that they're after not what historians think.

I read many Armenian documents and all the citations lead to no or very little reference in the end. One guy starts with '...it is believed that.' in a paper with no reference and 10 guys use this publication as a reference. That's how you get overwhelming number of reports from historians. Unfortunately maybe deliberately nobody tracks where the sources lead. I can very well make a documentary about some theories that are now obsolete in physics and cite 100 sources and find millions of people to buy it. Just put a little more than average people would know. Some images people will say wow a supernova. Turks can provide a lot of images of people killed by Armenians during that period. But who would allow them right? Your historians already decided that it didn't happen. So those images are totally made up as is Drastamat Kanaian. Armenian hero, master of ethnic cleansing everywhere else on the planet. Turks and Kurds were not enough he even joined Hitler in WWII. And in Armenia people give medals after his name. Have you read anything about this guy? Not the Armenian sources. Read American, German, British, Russian sources. Then you'll see things clearly. You'll see what historical revisionism is.

I know a lot of Armenians and their families that didn't suffer from anything during that period. Many of them were my classmates during high school and college. Read about what Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaks) did and still trying to do and how it affected everything if you want to blame someone for the deaths of Turks, Kurds and Armenians before you move on with what you have been spoonfed.

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This has been posted countless times before on the "Ararat" and other forums, but since the issues comes up again, I will repost it. The first post summarizes the overwhelming evidence proving the Armenian Genocide. The second post presents few of the countless pieces of evidence.

The overwhelming evidence, which proves that Turkey, under both the Young turk and Kemalist regimes, planned and exectured the extermination of 2 million Armenians in 1914-23, can be summarized as follows.

--numerous survivors
--countless of American, German, French, British, and other eyewitnesses
--numerous daily reports, in newspapers, stating the ongoing massacres.
--countless of photoes and films, documenting the massacres
--Ottoman documents and incriminating testimonies uncovered by a Turkish tribunal in 1919
--war time communication between officials of Turkey's allies--Germany and Austria Hungaria, the most damning of all evidence, and impossible to "discount" by the usual claims of "war time propaganda."

Some of this evidence, with proper references, is discussed at the following non-Armenian, non-Turkish website: http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436, proving that Turkey in fact carried out the Genocide of Armenians during and after World War I. For a thorough discussion, citations, and locations of the German and Austrian sources (which alone prove the Genocide), read Vahakn Dadrian, "The History of the Armenian Genocide," (Providence, RI: Bergahn Books, 1997), as well as his other books. Dadrian is a world renowned historian and specialist of the Armenian genocide, as well as recepient of numerous awards, and esteemed in the scholarly community for his high integrity.

Many thanks to my fellow brethren FanofSteptoeandSun, UberZoldat, cilicia, and others for providing various pieces of evidence posted below.

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Earlier I summarized and referenced the evidence for the Armenian Genocide. For those interested, here are some of the pieces of the evidence, discussed in greater detail.

As I mentioned earlier, the fact that the Ottoman Turkish government planned and executed the Genocide of 2 million Armenians during and after World War I is proven by countless of eyewitness, survivor, and documentary evidence. Some of this evidence consists of Austrian and German war-time communications, often confidential, found directly from the archives of these countries. The fact that these countries were Ottoman Turkey's war-time allies and direct accomplices in the Genocide makes them higly credible, debunking the generic Turkish claim of "war time propaganda bias." These documents have been studied before, more recently by Vahakn Dadrian, a highly respected world renowned Armenian historian, in his seminal work "History of the Armenian Genocide" (1997). His works, and the evidence he relied upon, are discussed in the following non-Armenian websites: http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436, and http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17910.

Following are just a few pieces of this evidence (Austrian, German, as well as some testimonies by Ottoman officials), all cited in http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4436 and all well documented in Dadrian's works. They expose the planning and execution of the Genocide by the government of Turkey:

"The December 15, 1918 deposition by General Mehmed Vehip, commander-in-chief of the Ottoman Third Army, and ardent CUP (Committee of Union and Progress, i.e., the "Ittihadists", or "Young Turks") member, included this summary statement: The murder and annihilation of the Armenians ... occurred because they were ordered, approved, and pursued first by the CUP's [provincial] delegates and central boards, and second by governmental chiefs."

Dadrian V., "The Armenian Question and the Wartime Fate of the Armenians as Documented by the Officials of the Ottoman Empire’s World War I Allies: Germany and Austria-Hungary", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, (2002), Vol. 32, Pp.84-85 n.111.

Here are a few German and Austrian sources exposing the initial phase of the Genocide--the "drafting" and execution of Armenian males in 1914-15, in order to leave the rest of the population defenseless against massacres:

"German Colonel Stange, in charge of a detachment of Special Organization Forces in eastern Turkey, questioned the veracity of the argument of Ottoman military authorities ... that the deportations were a military necessity because they feared an uprising. In his report to his German military superiors, Stange retorted, 'Save for a small fraction of them, all able-bodied Armenian men were recruited. There could, therefore, be no particular reason to fear a real uprising'"

And another one:

"Aleppo’s veteran German Consul, Walter Rossler, in a report of 27 July 1915 to Berlin declared, 'In the absence of menfolk, nearly all of whom have been conscripted, how can women and children pose a threat?'"

And yet another one

"Austrian Vice Marshall Pomiankowski, Military Plenipotentiary at Ottoman General Headquarters, provided his answer to these questions. The Turks, 'began to massacre the able-bodied Armenian men ... in order to render the rest of the population defenseless'."

The above 3 quotations can be found in the following German and Austrian archives: Germany Foreign Ministry Archives Turkei 183/38, A23991, or R14087, K. no. 81/B.1645; Germany Foreign Ministry Archives Botschaft Konstantinopel 170, J. no. 3841, "secret" report of 23 August 1914; Joseph Pomiankowski, Der Zusammenbruch des Ottomanischen Reiches, Graz, Austria: Akademischer Druck- u. Verlag, 1969, p. 160. All cited in Dadrian, V. "The Armenian Genocide: An Interpretation", in Winter, J., editor, America and the Armenian Genocide of 1914, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003, p.63, footnotes 18-21.

Note that these quotes also debunk the Turkish argument that there was a threat of a "rebellion" or a "civil war."

Regarding the notorios lies about "Turkish massacres by Armenians:"

"Rossler [the same Aleppo’s veteran German Consul mentioned above]... reacting specifically to the official Ottoman allegation that the Armenians had begun to massacre the Turkish population in the Turkish sections of Urfa ... dismissed the charge, unequivocally, with a single word: 'invented'."

Dadrian V., "The Armenian Question and the Wartime Fate of the Armenians", p.76, with specific primary source documentation, p.84 n.109.

Regarding the use of "deportations" as a means to massacre the Armenians:

"The sham of 'relocation' was made plain by the Chief of Staff of the Ottoman Fourth Army who oversaw the areas designated to receive these forcibly transferred Armenian populations. He rejected the relocation pretense categorically in his memoirs stating 'there was neither preparation, nor organization to shelter the hundreds of thousands of deportees.'"

Orgeneral Ali Fuad Erden, Birinci Dunya Harbinde Suriye Hantiralari [Syrian Memoirs of World War I], Vol. 1 p. 122; cited in, Dadrian, V., "The Signal Facts Surrounding the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish Denial Syndrome", Journal of Genocide Research, 2003, Vol. 5, p. 275.

Or, this time from Austrian and German sources:

"multiple consuls representing Turkeys allies Austria and Germany (in addition to the US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Morgenthau) ... maintained repeatedly that dispatching the victimized Armenian populations to such desert hinterlands sealed their fate--death and ruination."


Dadrian, V., "The Signal Facts Surrounding the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish Denial Syndrome", p. 275.

Crushing the Turkish excuse that the Genocide was a response to a widespread Armenian rebellion, Dadrian presents sources proving that the four isolated acts of resistance in the entire Ottoman Armenia were desparate acts of self defense that occured after the massacres:

"The Austrian Military Plenipotentiary to Turkey during World War I, in his memoirs, characterized the Van uprising as 'an act of desperation' by Armenians who 'recognized that [a] general butchery had begun in the environs of Van and that they would be the next [victims]'"

Pomiankowski, J., Der Zusammenbruch des Ottomanischen Reiches, p. 160.; cited in Dadrian, V., "The Signal Facts Surrounding the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish Denial Syndrome", p. 276.

This is only the tip of the iceberg--countless of other pieces of evidence, many used and referenced in Dadrian's works, confirm the already proven fact that Turkey planned and carried out the extermination of over 2 million innocent Armenians.

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The following article by professor R.J. Rummel provides additional detailed account, with sources, of the massacres committed by Turkey between 1900 and 1923, including the Greek and Armenian genocides.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM

While the article is long, a quite useful part of it are two tables where Rummel breaks down in great detail the numbers of massacred civilians during these atrocities, complete with sources for every single number:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB5.1A.GIF
and http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB5.1B.GIF (lines 438 to 488 summarizing the results of the genocides).

Rummel is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science at University of Hawaii and Nobel Peace Prize finalist, who "has published twenty-nine books, and received numerous awards for his research." (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COMM.1-1-05.HTM)

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Here are a few scanned photographs, originally taken by German and American photographers. depicting various aspects of the Armenian Genocide. Note that Germany was a Turkish ally at the time, and US was neutral. Many thanks to UberZoldat for providing the photoes.

The following link depicts Armenian men who were drafted to the Ottoman army and later executed (in late 1914-early 1915), as the initial stage of the planned Genocide--the goal being to deprive the Armenian population of its fighting manpower and leave the children and women defenseless:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/hyethga/ArmenianBattalionsDeportation1.jpg

Here is a photographic proof by German leutenant Armin T. Wegner, depicting the despicable horrors inflicted upon Armenians by Turks during the Genocide. The modern Turkish position is that these women and children were threat to Turkey. Which is why the world mocks Turkey for its position.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/hyethga/WegnersPictures.jpg

Here are photoes by Americans, portraying the despicable conditions the Armenian deportees were exposed to, in order to facilitate their annihilation.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v437/hyethga/?action=view&current=Orphans.jpg

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The following link contains US government reports and articles from various American newspapers during World War I, meticulously proving that the Armenian Genocide was carefully planned by the Turkish government, and executed through participation of various strata of the Turkish society (including women). Note that the US was neutral in the war at this stage, which renders the regular Turkish response of "war-time anti-Turkish propaganda" ludicrious.

http://www.teachgenocide.org/documents/index.htm#NEWS

Many thanks to cilicia for the link.

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Dear Tiger of truth?

Here are some questions, pictures and links that might interest the people who read your diarrhea of allegations and wonder how Turks have such a hard time accepting that there was a genocide against Armenians ever.

Besides that I want to ask you how come this SOooo true documentary “Armenian Genocide” missed these photos and cannot answer one question from below accurately? Or any Armenian-propagandist in that matter?

I will simplify this for you. Armenians and Turks are brothers/sisters. Since Armenians backstabbed Turks and helped Russians massacred them during Turkiye’s big invasion, a blood feud began between Turkish and Armenian civilians. Ottoman Army forced Armenians leave to stop this feud, nothing else. If they wanted to get rid of you, they wouldn’t walk with you guys for weeks and you wouldn’t exist today. I feel truly sad and raged when I see the pictures of both your people’s dead bodies and Turkish civilians as well because they simply are innocent people.

However, these allegations today has to stop because Armenian Diaspora is going further and restarting this feud again by brain washing you young Armenians. Turks know what’s being at war, being invaded and massacred, therefore they never teach their kids about the violence in their past. They teach them to make peace and look further. Maybe they are wrong. Maybe they should also teach what happened to their grandparents, how they were raped, killed and invaded by Europe and how they were backstabbed by their brothers/sisters for 700 years old. How do you feel when you look at the pictures below?

“Armenian Genocide” might be a well-funded documentary (thanks to rich Armenian lobby) but it has false pictures such as:

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/104.html

WRONG information and an EVIL purpose; to manipulate the history. It is a part of a game called “How to defy Armenians again and use them against Turks to create a bigger chaos in middle east, so we westerners can divide, dictate and abuse the wealth in east as we’ve been doing in the last 200 years.”

Wake up my brother! Turks might have a blood feud with you but they are not the real enemy. You will not be the winner in this game because you are only a tool in someone else’s agenda.

TO SEE SAME GAME IN THE PAST

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/chronology/index.html

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/armenian_issue/index.html

A VERY FRESH EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING AS A RESULT OF THIS BRAINWASHING
UCI Newspaper, May 1 2006
---------------------------------------------

Genocide Memorial Turns Ugly

On April 24, UC Irvine's Armenian Students Association
commemorated the 1915 Turkish killing of hundreds of
Armenian leaders with a candle-light vigil at the
administration flagpoles.

At one point during the event, a woman flashed the
Turkish flag and yelled at the Armenian students from
a distance. Some of the Armenians approached her and
got involved in a verbal fight. One Armenian student
reportedly spat in her face.

When the argument ended, the UCI Police Department
arrived and obtained a testimony from the Turkish
woman, who attempted to identify who spat at her.
ONE PICTURE FOR EACH BURNING QUESTION
(I believe in a fair society history should be discovered not invented)


TURKIYE HAS BEEN TRYING TO FACE THE PAST BUT THIS DOESN'T HELP ARMENIAN AGENDA BECAUSE IT MIGHT CONCLUDE THE TRUTH!!!
http://www.armenian-genocide-lie.com/armenia-rejects-turkeys-dialogue-call


http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/050.html

Historian Guenter Lewy in his article titled “Revisiting the Armenian Genocide”
published in Fall 2005 edition of Middle East Quarterly
( http://www.meforum.org/article/895 ) says this:

“…Most of those who maintain that Armenian deaths were premeditated and so constitute genocide base their argument on three pillars: the actions of Turkish military courts of 1919-20,…, the role of the so-called "Special Organization" accused of carrying out the massacres, and the Memoirs of Naim Bey[3] which contain alleged telegrams of Interior Minister Talât Pasha…. Yet when these events and the sources describing them are subjected to careful examination, they provide at most a shaky foundation from which to claim, let alone conclude, that the deaths of Armenians were premeditated….” End of quote.

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/051.html

Based on this, isn’t it a bit dishonest of you to present a complex, contested, and clearly unresolved historical event as “settled history” to unsuspecting listeners? Don’t you think you should qualify your views as those of the Armenian camp?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/052.htm

Historian Guenter Lewy in his letter of response to his critics of his article titled “Revisiting the Armenian Genocide” published in Winter 2005 edition of Middle East Quarterly ( http://www.meforum.org/article/895 ) says this:

“… the tribulations of Turkish refugees from the Balkan wars and other armed conflicts of the pre-World War I era have not received the attention and condemnation they deserve. The West has been preoccupied with the horrors of the Armenian story, and the suffering of Turks has often been ignored. The same holds true for the wartime famines that took a heavy toll of life among both Turks and Armenians. This double standard in recognizing human misery must be repudiated for the sake of historical truth and to help descendants of these victims live with their pain…”

Isn’t this double standard Prof. Lewy is mentioning clearly displayed here again today by your embellishing and magnifying the suffering of Christian Armenians while ignoring, or worse yet, dismissing the more profound suffering of Muslim Turks? Do you think such selective morality is scholarly?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/052.html

There are millions of Turks today who have similarly tragic stories of entire Turkish families and neighborhoods having been wiped out by Armenian nationalists armed by the Western allies. Some of the Muslim victims, mostly Turkish, were themselves refugees who survived terrible massacres in the Balkans, the Aegean Islands, the Crimea, the Caucasus, and elsewhere and who were resettled into Eastern Anatolia only to be met by yet another cycle of Christian violence at the hands of Armenian bands. Isn’t it true that their stories were never told, their pain and suffering were never noticed, and their tears never seen, due to the endless Armenian propaganda which has saturated the West since 1915?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/053.html

More than 70 Western students of Ottoman history categorically rejected the appropriateness of the genocide label for the fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey in an statement published in 1985. Other prominent scholars and intellectuals, including distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango, joined their ranks since. Doesn’t dismissing such awe-inspiring array of learned opinion boil down to bigotry in academia ? Are you comfortable with the dogmatism that ignores the enormous body of evidence disputing Armenian claims of genocide?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/054.html

Careful reading shows that the reports of British, French, American, German, and Austrian consular officials and Western missionaries, who were on the spot in Anatolia, confirm the occurrence of killings, though in a biased and sometimes even racist manner, but do not implicate the "Special Organization" or any other agency of the central government. Moreover, almost none of these mention the terrible massacres to which the Muslims were subjected and which are documented in the Ottoman archives. When the entire body of evidence put together, the picture emerging explains most non-partisan historians use the phrase “a civil war within a world war” to describe the Turkish-Armenian conflict. Why, for example, did you not dwell on the Muslims suffering at the hands of Armenians? After all, 523,000 Muslim victims, mostly Turkish, were documented in the Ottoman archives to have met their end at the hands of Armenians. Why this double standard on your part here today?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/055.html


Isn’t your allegation of a systematic elimination of the Armenian population undercut by the exemption of the large Armenian communities of Istanbul, Izmir, Edirne, and Aleppo from deportation? Since Armenian activists like to compare the Turkish-Armenian conflict for World War One to the Holocaust, in an attempt to gain instant credibility by association, wouldn’t this be comparable to Hitler exempting the Jews of Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich, and Hamburg from the final solution? How can you, in all fairness and honesty, compare the civil war between the Turks and Armenians during WWI to the Jewish Holocaust of WWII?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/056.html

The alleged telegrams of Talât Pasha contained in the Naim-Andonian book supposedly ordering the killing of all Armenians are exposed as crude forgeries not only by Turkish historians but also by almost all Western students of Ottoman history. Even a Hilmar Kaiser, an anti-Turkish biased scholar popularly cited by Armenian activists, concluded that "further research on the ‘Naim-Andonian' documents is necessary." How scholarly or honest is it to base the serious accusation of genocide on a proven forgery?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/057.html

If Armenians wish to believe that the verdict of the Turkish courts-martial of occupied Istanbul during 1919-20 is proof of the guilt of the Young Turk regime in the premeditated murder of Ottoman Armenians, they are free to do so. Armenian sympathizers, however, should know that the evidence used by the military tribunals, including but not limited to witness and expert testimony, confessions, searches and seizure is hardly reliable. They were never cross-examined. What’s worse, this evidence simply does not exist and the original documentation of the trials is conveniently “lost” by the Armenians and their victorious “foreign” allies. What we have today are “copies” of some documents in the gazette of the Ottoman government and the press in occupied Istanbul. Could even a single person be convicted of murder based solely on hearsay and press reports? How can the Armenians convict a whole nation of the most serious crime? Isn’t all this a bit to too extreme?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/059.html

I am deeply saddened and somewhat offended by your anti-Turkish biased presentation of this highly controversial subject. Isn’t presenting only one side of a controversial issue such as this one, while censoring the other side unscholarly, unfair, and even unethical ?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/060.html

You would not think about covering controversial subjects, such as abortion, gun control, immigration, war in Iraq, or others with only one side of the story told,
would you? Why then would you settle for one side of the story when it comes to the
Turkish-Armenian conflict? All we heard is the Armenian views; where is the Turkish point of view here? Why this prejudice against the Turks and the Muslims?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/064.html

According to the Armenians, Turkish pain does not exist. Turkish dead do not matter; only Armenian dead do. Turks do not deserve a chance to be heard. Do you subscribe to such a blatantly racist approach? And if you don’t, where is the Turkish speaker up there?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/061.html

I don’t believe I heard much about the well-documented facts that the Ottoman-Armenians resorted to agitation, terrorism, armed revolts, and supreme treason (as in joining and invading enemy), in that order, from 1890 to 1915. Do you deny these facts to make your genocide allegations stick?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/063.html

The Armenians activists label "deniers” all who rightfully challenge the baseless Armenian accounts of history. Those “deniers” are then harassed even terrorized-- as an unfortunate incident at UCI last week showed where a student was attacked by Armenians just for being Turkish. Some Armenian even go farther than that to categorically label all Turkish-Americans paid Turkish government
agents. Do you think such intimidation and terror tactics by Armenians are justifiable?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/068.html

I believe Armenian accounts boil down to dishonest history with racist interpretations and should have no place at an institute of higher learning such as this college. Wouldn’t it be fair to invite the representatives of the responsible opposing views to challenge the unfounded allegations of the Armenian camp for the benefit of your listeners? Isn’t a thoughtful and lively debate always better than a partisan monologue or a bigoted chorus?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/065.html

Isn’t Genocide is a legal term precisely defined by the U.N., that can be used only after a verdict is reached by a competent tribunal (such as Nuremberg), after due process where both sides of the conflict are properly represented and heard and cross examined? Does such a court decision exist? Have Turks ever been heard? Shouldn’t the qualifier “alleged” until a competent court decides that the term genocide applies to the Turkish-Armenian conflict precede this term, in all fairness, truth, and objectivity?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/067.html

As the table in McCarthy’s book clearly demonstrates, Turkish and Muslim losses are to enormous and spread over too long a period to “casually escape one’s attention” or to be considered an “honest oversight”. Can you appreciate how important it is for the Turkish Americans and Muslim Americans, that any balanced coverage of the Turkish-Armenian conflict during World War One (WWI) mentions the truth about the more than 2.5
million Turks and Muslims killed by the allies and their Ottoman-Armenian cohorts?
Especially when 523,000 of those victims met their end at the hands of Armenian nationalists between 1914-1918 alone?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/069.html

Are the atrocities committed against Turks and Muslims not worth your time, attention, and/or respect? Are their lives less valuable than the lives of the Christian Armenians?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/071.html

Have you been just, fair, and honest in covering both sides of this issue for the benefit of your unsuspecting listeners? Here is what By Justin McCarthy says on page 309 of his book DEATH AND EXILE: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 (Princeton: Darwin Press, 1995) :

Muslim Deaths Muslim Refugees
Greek Revolution 25,000* 10,000*
Ottoman-Russian War (1827-1829) Unknown 26,000
Deportees from Crimea 75,000* 300,000
Deportees from Caucasus 400,000* 1,200,000
Bulgaria (1877-1878) 260,000 515,000
Ottoman-Russian War (1877-1878) Unknown 70,000
Balkan Wars 1,450,000 410,000
Caucasus (1905) Unknown -
Eastern Anatolia (1914-1921) 1,190,000 900,000 (internal replacements)
Caucasus (1914-1921) 410,000 270,000
Western Anatolia (1914-1922) 1,250,000 480,000**
1,200,000 (internal replacements)
Total 5,060,000 5,381,000

* Estimates
** Turkish-Greek Exchange of Populations
Source: Justin McCarthy, Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922, (Princeton: Darwin Press, 1995), p. 309

How can anyone, let alone any scholar, ignore such an enormous human suffering spread over such a long time? Isn’t this bias and bigotry at its worst?

I was deeply disappointed to see a one-sided presentation of a controversial subject here.
The right thing would be to allow the “other side of the story”, namely the Turkish side, also be heard by the unsuspecting listeners. Failing that, as was the case, the teachers were exposed to biased Armenian allegations only. Is this fair or even?

Precisely because of all this lopsided coverage of the Turkish-Armenian history in America, a Turkish-American had coined a new word back in 2003, his humble gift to the English language, which word now perfectly describes this lecture: Ethocide. Coined from the words "ethics" and "cide" (killing), ethocide means " extermination of ethics via systematic and malicious mass deception for political, social, cultural, economic, religious, and/or other gain". Isn’t it time that this ethocidal coverage of the Turkish-Armenian conflict riddled with anti-Turkish bias and bigotry gave way to sensible dialogue to properly evaluate a dark chapter in history where my Turkish predecessors paid the highest price in terms of loss of life and property, and 91 years later, it seems, dignity?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/073.html

Don’t Armenian claims seem to find acceptance only in those platforms where Turkish views are censored? Isn’t it ironic that the truth is not in what the Armenians say , but ironically, in what they don’t say? Where is the Turkish suffering in your presentations? Where are the Armenian terrorism, armed uprisings, and treason? Where is half the story?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/074.html

Isn’t it a fact that most of the Armenian allegations were proven to be exaggerations, embellishments, distortions, fabrications and/or fraud? Aren’t some celebrated examples of bogus Armenian claims include the infamous Hitler quote, the skull-pyramid photo, the Talaat telegrams, the Andonian files, Musa Dagh episode, Morgenthau’s ghost writers, 1.5 million casualty figure, population statistics, causes, and more? Is it right to treat these unchallenged and baseless Armenian claims as “facts”?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/075.html

Do you know the difference between “allegations” and “judgments”? Isn’t it true that while anyone can make any claim, only judgments are filtered through the “due process” by careful and orderly cross-examination of factual, relevant input? Have the Armenians ever won a court case authorizing them to use the term genocide? How can they endlessly benefit from a nonexistent “judgment” of genocide?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/076.html

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Are you aware that 127 leading non-governmental organizations in Turkey recently suggested to the Republic of Armenia to take the Republic of Turkey to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Netherlands? I agree with those NGOs as it makes a lot of sense to me. Since Armenians seem to have many books, films, exhibitions, witnesses and more, they should have no problems having Turkey convicted. So, what are the Armenians waiting for? Is it because the Turkish archives would be opened for all to see in such a court and Turkish views would be heard perhaps for the first time for most?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/077.html

Are you aware that the Republic of Turkey just recently made an official offer to the Republic of Armenia recently to establish a joint committee of historians and open all the archives, so that this matter can be studied based on facts and figures, not propaganda and hearsay? Do you know that Turkey’s archives are open, but Armenia’s, the Armenian churches’ and the Armenian Diaspora’s are not ? Do you know that Prime Minister Erdogan said the Turkish side would accept the outcome of such a competent research committee, regardless of which way the final verdict goes: genocide or civil war. So what are the Armenians waiting for? Since you are so convinced, why not say yes to this blue ribbon investigation committee? What are you fearful of? Facts?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/078.html

Are you aware that the British refused to use the Armenian sources in their Malta Trials (1919-1921)? Do you know that the Armenians filed all the documents you now speak of, although mostly hearsay and accusations, with the court clerk when the British imprisoned the Ottoman leadership to investigate the Armenian charges. Do you also know that the British had to let the Ottoman leaders go free, without filing a single charge? Shouldn’t this be the end of all Armenian allegations?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/079.html

Don’t partisan presentations such as yours today deliberately distort the truth, deepen divisions and polarizations among the Americans of differing heritage (ie Turks, Azeris, Armenians, and others) and prevent peace?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/080.html

Isn't it ironic, that we have bombed Yugoslavia punish the Serbians for ethnic cleansing;
we have fought Saddam first for aggression and then for supporting international terrorism; but we rewarded with US help when Armenia, a Christian terrorist country, committed all three of these crimes? Didn’t Armenia conduct aggression and ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan since 1994 causing 1 million Azeri refugees to leave their home at gunpoint? Didn’t Armenia support international terrorism from 197os to present killing, 70+ Turkish diplomats and bystanders worldwide? Isn’t this a double standard on the part of the successive U.S. governments?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/081.html

Aren’t Armenian allegations of genocide dishonest and racist history? Racist because they imply that Turkish dead do not matter, but Armenian dead do? And dishonest because they deliberately misrepresent as genocide a civil war within a world war caused by Armenian greed, , terrorism , armed revolts, and treason?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/082.html

Isn’t your presentations typical of the official Armenian propaganda line? Can it pass the "the Four T’s” test:
tumult (as in armed revolts against their own government);
terrorism (both domestic and international, then and now);
treason (as in joining the invading enemy armies); and
Turkish suffering they caused (2.5 million Turks lost their lives during WWI, 523,000 thousand of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists.) ?
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/083.html

Armenians keep saying that they believe genocide is settled history. Since when history has become a matter of “belief”? Isn’t history supposed to be a matter of “scholarship”, as in research, peer review, and debate? One would expect from the organizers to serve the American public by providing a free-speech-platform here where dialogue and thoughtful debate can help to illuminate issues. How does this partisan speech exposing the public only to the biased views of Armenian camp serve the public?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/084.html

Why do Armenians keep invoking the Jewish Holocaust? Did Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines? Did Jews kill Germans to terrorize the German population into fleeing? Did they join the invading enemy armies and commit terrorism and stage armed revolts and commit treason? And did they do all that for 25 years prior to 1940 to establish a Jewish state on German soil? Of course, not. But Armenian did all that and much worse between 1890-1915 in Anatolia, victimizing Ottoman-Muslims. How can the two vastly different histories be mentioned in the same breath? How can a civil war be equated to the Holocaust?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/085.html

Was it genocide or wartime tragedy? If Armenian resorted to terrorism, armed uprisings, and outright treason, and Turks responded to the serious wartime security threats with a wartime measure of temporary resettlement, wouldn’t it make it a civil war?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/086.html

If it was genocide, where is the court verdict? Where is the proof of intent? If there is no intent, how can there be genocide? Didn’t the Malta Tribunals of 1919-1921 by the British, abandoned due to lack of evidence, prove that today’s Armenian allegations of genocide are nothing more than an afterthought, a new spin on an old event, and a political maneuver?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/087.html

How come we heard nothing about the Turkish suffering caused by the Armenian nationalists like the Dashnaks, the Hunchaks, the Ramgavar, and others? Weren’t the Turkish losses at least 4 times heavier than Armenian losses?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/088.html

What about Armenian terrorism, rebellions, and treason? Why didn’t we hear anything about them?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/089.html

As the prominent Turkish Historian Halacoglu recently said, crying makes poor history. Isn’t it a fact that my grandparents can’t cry on TV today, like those Armenian survivors, because the Armenians and Greeks killed them in Anatolia between 1911-1922 ?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/090.html

It is well documented that until May 2, 1915, the date of the telegraph by Enver Pasha from the Russian front to Talaat Pasha in Istanbul, there was not even talk of temporary resettlement; so how can it be genocide if there is no intent of killing Armenians?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/091.html

Where is the right of the Turkish-Americans’ to the freedom of speech with access to this panel denied?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/092.html

Isn’t New York Times guilty of censoring Turkish views? Didn’t NYT publish 145 anti-Turkish stories in 1915 with zero rebuttals, refutations, or challenges allowed for Turks? Is this the fair and balanced coverage the Armenians are basing their allegations on?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/102.html

Aren’t Armenian allegations of genocide are dishonest history because they ignore Armenian terror, rebellions, and treason!

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/103.html

How come you always mention denial by the Turkish government when you know we are the Turkish-Americans, not the Turkish government and we also categorically reject the Armenian claims of genocide?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/106.html

Do you know the first of the six apologies the Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI which is for Britain to apologize for the wartime propaganda in the “Blue Book” on which today’s genocide claims are built and for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in Anatolia?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/108.html

Did you know that Boghos Nubar Pasha, the Armenian leader, said in a published letter that “Armenians Were de-facto belligerents during WWI”? Doesn’t it prove that it was a civil war?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/109.html

Do you know the second of apologies Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI which is for France to apologize for the wartime propaganda in the “Yellow Books” and for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in Anatolia?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/109.html

Do you know the third of six apologies Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI which is for Russia to apologize for destroying 850 years of harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/111.html

Do you know the fourth of six apologies Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI which is for the Protestant Missionaries sent from Boston to apologize for dividing, polarizing, and destroying 850 years of harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia ?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/112.html
Do you know the fifth of six apologies Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI which is for the New York Times to apologize for biased coverage of 1915? Did you know NYT published 145 partisan reports defaming Turks versus zero rebuttals by Turks allowed?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/113.html

Do you know the sixth of six apologies Turks have been waiting for since the end of WWI which is for the Ottoman-Armenians to apologize for destroying 850 years of harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia with their greed, agitation, terrorism, rebellions, and treason?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/114.html

Did you know the Ottoman Empire loved and cherished the Armenians as “the most loyal nation” but the Armenians betrayed this respect by donning the French and Russian uniforms to kill their Ottoman-Muslim neighbors?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/118.html

George M. Lamsa, a missionary well known for his research on Christianity,
The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia 1923, p 133 said and I quote:
"…In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well- known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies…." Isn’t this proof enough of the Armenian fraud and Western complicity?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/120.html

John Dewey, of the Library Dewey System fame, wrote in The New Republic on 12 November 1928 the following: “...Few Americans who mourn, and justly, the miseries of the Armenians, are aware that till the rise of nationalistic ambitions... the Armenians were the favored portion of the population of Turkey, or that in the Great War, they traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an Army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population...”
Isn’t this proof enough of the Armenian distortions?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/121.html

Dr. Gwynne Dyer, a London-based independent journalist, wrote in 1976:
“… The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication
in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and
emotionally committed audience, are the major handicaps of Armenian historiography
of the diaspora today…” Isn’t this a proper description of the Armenian fanaticism?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/126.html

Georges de Maleville, lawyer and a specialist on the Armenian question, La Tragédie Arménienne de 1915, (The Armenian tragedy of 1915), Editions F. Sorlot-F. Lanore, Paris, 1988, p 61-63, said: “…In all the countries, under all the regimes, the staff of the armies in the field evacuate towards the back, the populations which live in the zone of fights and can bother the movement of the troops, especially if these populations are hostile. Public opinion does not find anything to criticize to these measures, obviously painful, but necessary. During winter of 1939-1940, the radical - socialist French government evacuated and transported in the Southwest of France, notably in the Dordogne, the entire population of the Alsatian villages situated in the valley of the Rhine, to the east of the Maginot line. This German-speaking population, and even sometimes germanophil, bothered the French army. It stayed in the South, far from the evacuated homes and sometimes destroyed until 1945….And nobody, in France, cried out for inhumanity…” Doesn’t this point poignantly to the hollowness of the Armenian claims?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/127.html

How did “the most loyal nation” in the Ottoman Empire turn into “the most distrusted nation” ? Can Turks be blamed for losing their trust in Armenians after Armenian rebellions and treason?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/128.html

What about Armenia’s aggression in Karabagh-Azerbaijan since 1988?
What about Armenia’s aggression in Azerbaijan since 1992? What about Armenia’s ethnic cleansing both in Karabagh and Azerbaijan since 1992? Why did you ignore one million Azeris expelled from their homes at gun point by Armenian thugs in 1994? Why is everyone so hush-hush about the tragedy of one million Azeri refugees who still brave the freezing Caucasus winters in leaky tents with little food or medicine for the 12th years in a row?

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/129.html
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/129.html
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/132.html
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/133.html
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/134.html

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Ertugtuf,
This site easily defeats anything you have to say --

http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/Table_Of_Contents/genocide_documents.htm

Just go one by one on your points and compare each with the studied and proven information from the institute's website. And yes, this one is an "Armenian" site. The others posted above are from various locations.

People like you don't post factual information. All of a sudden you're the person who's going to "prove" that there was no genocide, when every sensible person knows that the genocide is a historical fact?

Get a grip on reality. You're only posting information supplied to you by the Turkish government -- information they've had 90+ years to write or rewrite in THEIR archives -- whereas the overwhelming information provided for viewing by the Armenians comes from numerous locations, and nearly all are outside of Armenia.

Think for a second and ask yourself why it is that only Turks see the genocide as they do, whereas a majority of the supporters of the Armenian claims are non-Armenians. The ONLY reason Turkey has had any opportunity to present its side is because it is in a strategic position to do so. If this question were only about the facts -- the overwhelming evidence -- you would have been silenced decades ago.

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mms:\\streaming2.uc.edu\artsci\history\g_panel.wmv

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Thanks for the copy-paste jobs none of which answer the questions that I directed. My message was clear. All these documents you refer to as evidence were present at the time those people were put to trial. None was considered serious evidence.

There's no evidence that there was any order issued for extermination.

Read Tehlirian's trial minutes. You'll see even that is not coherent. 1 minute he claims that Turks killed his family right in front of him and describes every detail (e.g. these were the soldiers escorting us) during prosecutor's cross examination he says that 'he was told that they were Turks'??

They go for insanity defense.

First instead of citing from one-sided journals read about those years. Not for Ottoman Empire or Armenians but in general. You'll see the deportations were very common during WW1 and many more Turks perished as they moved from current Bulgaria, Greece, Russia etc. to Anatolia. During the population exchanges deaths occured among the other populations, too. My grandparents were in that population exchange. They don't claim anything for dead people. It was war time they say. There were countries willing to receive other populations (e.g. Greeks went to Greece) but for Armenians there was no such place. That's why losses were more than in other incidents.

Nobody really has an answer for 'why Armenians?' They didn't do anything but all of a sudden some people decided to exterminate them. This is the claim but I really have a hard time understanding this explanation. Also methods are interesting. Quoting from your quotation 'massacre the able-bodied Armenian men ... in order to render the rest of the population defenseless' Well.. Kill the men and walk women and children hundreds of miles. Doesn't it sound weird?? Read about that on R.J. Rummel's page that you cited. You'll see everything he covers has one thing in common "gather masses of people" not walk them for months especially with food support from missionaries and red cross and let people photograph their suffering. It sounds to me, there's something wrong with this scenario.

Let me give you some info about some sources Armenian authors favor. Forty Days of Musa Dagh is a book claims to be factual but refuted by many survivors of the event who are French citizens now and have nothing to do with Turkey. Author spices up the story by adding the attack of Turkish army and a long fight between people hiding in Musa Dagh. I'm glad you cited something about Van uprising if you read more about it you'll see that it starts with Armenian Revolutionary Federation militants setting Armenian houses on fire, killing Armenians and trying to put the blame on Turks to start a revolt. When mayor (who's Armenian) finds out it was a setup, he ends being assasinated 'again' by Armenians.

Also read about Armenian occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh and why Armenian president avoided the most recent UN meeting.

Do you really think this is all about mourning lives that were lost. Armenia losses billions of dollars every year because Turkish border is closed. Turkey took this action after illegitimate occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh. What is Armenia pushing for with genocide claims? Check the timeline. After when they started really pushing for it? What is their first demand if Turkey accepts the genocide claims? They want Turkey to open the trade routes. So Armenian goverment can spend millions of dollars to publish books, websites and cover the needle by creating a haystack around it because in the end they'll definitely benefit from it. The reason it got this far is Turkish government never took it seriously. They assumed that nobody would buy this story and now they're behind Armenia in the game because of this lack of interest.

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Blind Skunk,
You're just another pathetic member of the denial campaign. What you fail to see is the obvious fact that your "small circle" of liars, fabricators, and all the other sort who attempt to deceive the public is shrinking by the day. Even many of your most "astute" supporters are losing ground and therefore are remaining quiet about the subject of the Armenian genocide. Your side has changed in the various excuses it has made about the genocide over the many decades, whereas the supporters of the claim of genocide -- Armenian and non-Armenian -- have maintained their position. Why? The truth can never be extinguished, no matter how much effort is put forth against it and no matter the length of time that passes. In the end, the truth always comes to light.

You truly are pathetic. I don't mean it to "insult" you. I mean it in the sense that it is sad that even a "common" person -- an average person of the world like you and I, as opposed to someone who has studied this subject extensively and would be considered a "historian" on it -- would go to this length of making ridiculous excuses, excuses that no sensible person would take seriously in any degree. What that does to you is make you seem foolish and desperate. For example, think of a mother who rejects the notion that her son is a rapist and murderer, and yet the police discover his DNA at the scene of the crime -- or worse for the criminal, the police discover that the crime was caught on tape.

I'm sure you've heard of ridiculous situations like this, where the criminal's family continues to reject any accusation against him, no matter the evidence. This is exactly the impression you give when you attempt to make excuses for what those Ottoman-Turkish murderers did before, during, and after 1915. Your ancestors -- the ones who took part in any capacity in the genocide, not the righteous ones who protected Armenians from the brutality -- not only destroyed over two million Armenian lives in all, but guaranteed that no Turkish "nation" will ever see a prosperous future that is free of the reminder of its violent past.

The Armenian genocide is unfortunately a permanent scar on every Turk. You should be extremely angry at your murderous ancestors -- the ones who took part in the genocide of course -- who changed the world's perception of Turks forever by putting you under such a bloodstained light, more than any other Turkish "leadership" preceding it. The genocide of Armenians by your ancestors is one of the most inhuman crimes in the history of mankind. Your anger should not be directed towards Armenians for informing you of it. We are only pointing you to the facts. It's you who has to accept those facts or live as a fool to the world. Accept the facts of the Armenian genocide and don't defend those demons who ruined you forever. You can improve yourselves by distancing yourselves from your murderous ancestors.

I feel sorry for people like you. You are so desperate to clear your conscience of the horrific crimes of your ancestors that you'll come up with the most ridiculous excuses to justify their acts and expect everyone to accept them. The only way to clear your conscience is to accept the facts of the crime of the Armenian genocide and define yourself as different and better than those who preceded you. What I mean by that is that you should prove to the world that you are nothing like your ancestors. When you defend them -- the murderers who committed the Armenian genocide -- what do you think the world sees of you? It sees a "reflection" of your ancestors -- the perpetrators of the genocide.

You should be thankful there are righteous Turks who do good deeds and demonstrate that there is a chance that some who "deny" the facts of the Armenian genocide today will "accept" those facts tomorrow.

All you're being asked to do is accept the facts. That is all.

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Blind Skunk,
This is good material for you to read. Please, understand how important it is to be honest with yourself. Denying the obvious hurts you the most.


An interview with Ara Sarafian - Turkish review VIRGUL- Issue 95 - May 2006

dimanche 4 juin 2006, Stéphane/armenews

http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=23050

AN INTERVIEW WITH ARA SARAFIAN

published in the monthly book review Virgul, Issue 95, May 2006

OSMAN KOKER : If I remember right your name was first heard in Turkey in the year 1995 when your research at the Ottoman Archives was interrupted by the officials there. In the past few years your name is mentioned in connection with the “Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-1916”, known as the "Blue Book".

At the conference in the Istanbul University on 15-17 March you made a presentation about the Blue Book. Why did you choose the Blue Book as your topic ?

ARA SARAFIAN : I chose this subject because it is topical in Turkey, and because the Blue Book issue reflects the disturbing face of the official Turkish thesis on the Armenian Genocide. The whole case against the Blue Book, according to the official Turkish thesis, relies on deliberate misinformation about the subject. This is why I call many of my antagonists “denier” of the Armenian Genocide rather than people I disagree with.

O.K. : How was the Blue Book prepared ?

A.S. : The Blue Book was originally compiled as a report. We do not know how the decision was taken to request such a report, but certainly we do know that its compilers, Arnold Toynbee and James Bryce, acted in good faith when putting it together. We can make this assertions because we have Toynbee’s working papers from this period (including his correspondence with Bryce), as well as his later published works where he talks about the Blue Book and the Armenian Genocide.

O.K. : What are the criteria employed in deciding to include a witness account in the book ? Do you think these criteria are reliable ?

A.S. : The key criteria for the inclusion of reports in the Blue Book was that sources had to be authentic primary records (eye-witness accounts). Most of these reports were from a neutral United States, which had its consulates in the interior of the Ottoman Empire until April 1917. These consuls reported what they saw around them, and they also forwarded other reports written by Americans and non-Americans in these regions, such as the letters of American, German, or Swiss missionaries.

Given these source of information, Toynbee and Bryce did not doubt the originality of these accounts from the Ottoman Empire, and they judged their value as primary sources on a record by record basis.

I think the criteria used by Toynbee and Bryce to gather and assess their materials were creditworthy under the circumstances. They even made provisions for possible errors creeping in by basing their case on the weight of all the evidence without relying on one or two documents. They also, for example, made sure that, the core narrative of events rested on the evidence of Americans, Germans and other foreigners, in case the “native evidence” (those from Armenian or Assyrian sources) may have overstated what they saw.

In fact, when they did so, they realised that the strongest reports were provided by non-Armenians, and that the “native evidence” merely provided additional information.

According to the available evidence, the report that was compiled by Bryce and Toynbee was accepted as a Parliamentary Blue Book in the summer of 1916 because of the strong case it represented. Certainly Toynbee had no idea that the report he compiled would become a Parliamentary report.

The strength of the Blue Book today lies in the fact that we have a complete record of how it was put together. We also know where (most of) the original documentation came from, as well as how these documents were selected from a wider body of archival records in the United States. This is why we can still find the original records today (and can not simply speculate about their real or fictitious origins).

I used these archival and published sources to carefully annotate my critical edition of the 1916 work.

O.K. : Do you think we can refer to the Blue Book as a propaganda tool ? What were the means/methods used by the British in their propaganda efforts at that time ?

A.S. : The British used propaganda as part of their war effort. Some of this was crude, and some of it not so crude. The British government was careful such propaganda did not backfire. That is why they did not publish anything on Ottoman Turkey early in the war (for example when they were landing at Gallipoli), because they did not have reliable information. They were concerned that, if they made a poor case against the Ottoman Empire, it would offend the Muslim population of the British Empire. The first pamphlet they printed, not under an official title, was after October 1915-when they first began receiving reliable information about the destruction of Armenians. In fact, the basis of that booklet was a speech Bryce made in Parliament, based on the new evidence from the USA. Toynbee was asked to create a publication from Bryce’s speech, which is what he did, and it was published under his own name.

As more evidence of atrocities against Armenians was revealed, Toynbee and Bryce continued to collect such records in a more formal way in February 1916, for a more critical and systematic report. Once the decision was taken to publish the Blue Book, it was used for effective propaganda purposes. However, the work itself was not compromised by crude propaganda considerations, nor fabricated as some deniers of the Armenian Genocide like to suggest. The Blue Book was compiled to a high academic standard, and the archival records we have today support this point out.

O.K. : As you know, Ottoman Empire too published a book, “Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Harekat-i Ihtilaliyesi”, for propaganda purposes about the Armenian issue during the WWI. What can you say on this book ?

A.S. : Regarding Ottoman wartime propaganda against Armenians, it cannot be compared with the Blue Book. Turkish nationalists have republished the Ottoman government’s anti-Armenian propaganda without serious examination where the records came from, who compiled and edited them, who forwarded them to the compilers, where the original materials are today, how records were included or excluded from the Ottoman publication, etc. It would be an interesting exercise for the TTK (Turkish History Association) to undertake and publish such an annotated republication, as the Gomidas Institute has done for the Blue Book.

O.K. : You are the editor of the 2000 "uncensored" edition of the Blue Book ? What does "uncensored" mean ?

A.S. : I am the editor of the 2000 and the 2005 “uncensored” editions ! The latter one came out last year with minor additions in the introduction.

I decided to call my annotated republication the “uncensored edition” because I included information that was left out of the original publication. In 1916, many of the witnesses whose reports appeared in the Blue Book, were still in the Ottoman Empire (for example, the US consuls in Trabzon, Harput, Aleppo, Mersin). The British could not reveal the identities of these people for obvious reasons. In other cases, the eyewitness accounts were so specific, that the identities of the sources inside the Ottoman Empire could be revealed by the witness statements, so some place names also had to be obscured as well. When Toynbee censured such information he also placed it into a confidential key, which was not made generally available-except to trusted individuals. Toynbee also explained all of this in his introduction to the main volume.

The confidential key was made public after WWI and has been in print for the past 50 years. So, when we reproduced the Blue Book at the Gomidas Institute, we also put all of this information back into the main work. This is why we called it the “uncensored edition,” because we put all of the missing information that was taken out in 1916 was put back into the main text.

Deniers of the Blue Book today do not acknowledge these facts and argue that the Blue Book hid its sources because the report used by the British were fictitious ! Recently, at the Istanbul University Symposium, Sukru Elekdag claimed that Justin McCarthy had just “discovered” a copy of the key in the British National Archives at Kew, and that the key showed that the reports comprising the Blue Book were not creditworthy. Of course, Elekdag’s assertions remain absurd : as mentioned before, the key to the Blue Book has been available for many decades. Furthermore, if one looked at McCarthy’s work over the last 20 years, one can see in his bibliographies that he has been consulting archival collections that have included the confidential key (most notably the Toynbee Papers, Record Group of the State Department). In fact the same is also true for other deniers, such as Mim Kemal Öke, Salahi Sonyel, Kamuran Gurun and others. The publication of the “uncensored edition” of the Blue Book has forced McCarthy to change his position, but it is not enough to save him. He has acknowledged the key only to claim (again wrongly) that the content of the Blue Book is inadequate.

Other than collapsing the confidential key back into the main Blue Book, I also used the Toynbee Papers in the British National Archives to trace the original records that were sent to him. Having traced the bulk of these records to the United States National Archives, I checked if the reports sent to the British were selective (i.e. were there any reports which did not support the Armenian Genocide thesis ?), and if the accounts that were sent were changed by communicants in the USA or by Bryce and Toynbee themselves. I then annotated the blue book with this additional information, including full citations where the original records could be found, and I gave my analysis in a new introduction to the “uncensored” Blue Book.

What were the results ? The Blue Book was exactly what it claimed it was in its original introduction. It was carefully put together with the authenticity of each document examined. I can also say that the U.S. reports appearing in the Blue Book were not selective nor distorted. In fact, if we added all of the missing records from the State Department files (i.e.including those which were not sent to the British in 1916), the Blue Book thesis would actually be strengthened. Some of the worst accounts about the Armenian Genocide were not made public by the Americans-but we can certainly read them today.

I have also published these sources in another book called “United States Official Records on the Armenian Genocide 1915-17” and these records (and more) will soon appear on the internet on www.gomidas.org.

O.K. : Turkish retired ambassador and member of parliament Sukru Elekdag said, in the conference at the Istanbul University, that the Blue Book was the "last fortress of the Armenian genocide allegations". Is this true ? Aren’t there any other publications or archival records on Armenian genocide.

A.S. : Sukru Elekdag is like the captain of a sinking ship who continues telling his passengers that he knows what he is doing. The Blue Book issue is a personal debacle for him, as well as others who have worked for him on this issue. The choice of staking Turkey’s reputation on the denial of the Blue Book was a political blunder which will only bring shame to the Turkish republic. I say the Turkish republic because Elekdag managed to get the whole TGNA behind him on this issue. I do not feel sorry for Elekdag, but I feel sorry for those well meaning Turks who trusted his judgement.

Furthermore, at the Istanbul University symposium, Elekdag claimed that his Blue Book campaign was part of the Turkish government’s peace initiative last year to resolve the Turkish-Armenian issue and to hand down a peaceful legacy to future generations of Armenians,Turks (and presumably Kurds). If his Blue Book campaign is a measure of that initiative, then we have to questions the actual peaceful intentions of the Turkish authorities.

Elekdag and his supporters seem to be mocking us when addressing the Armenian issue. They seem to believe that they are in a position of power, and that they think they can get away with anything they want. They are part of the problem in Turkish-Armenian relations today, not part of the solution.

I suggest Turkish intellectuals consider carefully the case I am making here. The Blue Book issue is very instructive how Turkey looks in the outside world-especially as the TGNA has made it into an international issue.

I believe the most important sources that are available on the Armenian Genocide are the memoirs of Armenian survivors. Many of these sources are incredibly detailed and provide the perspective of victims. Then there are the diplomatic records of the United States, Germany, Italy and other countries. Of course Ottoman records have their own significance, though I cannot comment on them. I was only recently readmitted back into Ottoman archives and I hope to have the opportunity to return to Turkey and work with such materials as well.

The Gomidas Institute has published the memoirs and diaries of foreign diplomats and missionaries, such as the diaries of Ambassador Morgenthau. The latter manuscript was published in its entirety, because it is a crucial primary source. It also supports Morgenthau’s stance on the Armenian issue. Most people in Turkey know about Morgenthau because of Heath Lowry’s booklet which misrepresents Morgenthau’s reports and diaries and castigating the American ambassador as some sort of an Armenian puppet. Heath Lowry’s assessment of Morgenthau is wrong and part of Elekdag’s denialist campaign from the 1980s. Lowry and Elekdag have worked together closely to deny the Armenian Genocide. In fact, there was a big scandal about this very subject not so long ago, following a clerical error at the Turkish embassy, when Lowry’s correspondence with Elekdag, where they discussed the denial of the Armenian Genocide, was sent to an American scholar. That scholar exposed this correspondence and there is plenty of information about that scandal on the internet.

The Gomidas Institute is currently fund-raising so that it can continue its research and publishing work, in English, Armenian and hopefully Turkish. Right now we have a number of key books to publish, including translations in our new Turkish language series.

However, as an independent academic institution, the Gomidas Institute has no government or other institutional backing. We are also not a lobbying organisation. We have to raise funds for each project we undertake and each book we publish. Sometimes we have to refuse funding because potential sponsors try to twist our work for partisan purposes. Like many other institutions, we have to remain vigilant to maintaining our academic integrity. There is no question where we stand in such matters. I hope we will continue our work and start cooperating with similar institutions in Turkey.

O.K. : Have you come across reference to a specific incident mentioned in the Blue Book in some other records/archival documents or books ?

A.S. : Yes. For example, the events in Harpout, including the mass murder of Armenian community leaders are corroborated in the diaries of Maria Jacobsen and Tacy Atkinson, as well as the memoirs of Henry Riggs. Similarly, the appalling condition of Armenian deportees in Osmaniye are corroborated by many sources, including the diaries of an Armenian schoolboy from Corum, Vahram Dadrian. There are many such examples.

O.K. : What do you think is the significance of the Istanbul University symposium on the future of Turkish Armenian relations ? And what are your expectations to follow ?

A.S. : By holding this conference, the participants at the Istanbul University symposium demonstrated a fundamental point : the treatment of Armenians in 1915, including the Armenian Genocide thesis, is a legitimate topic of discussion in Turkey today. This is a radical departure from the past, when the subject was both a taboo and proscribed by law. This does not mean that the official Turkish thesis, which does not recognize the Armenian Genocide, has changed. But it does mean that the subject is open to scrutiny and discussion.

I expect that there will be many participants in future discussions, where Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian and other historians will agree and disagree on concrete historical issues regarding their common history. I hope it will be a fruitful endeavour.

Even now, many ethnic Turks do not agree with the official Turkish thesis, just as many Armenian historians do not agree with the established Armenian one. The important thing is that the Armenian Genocide (and the genocide of Assyrians) can now be addressed within the boundaries of sensible academic debates.

O.K. : It was a big surprise for us that Yusuf Halacoglu, head of the TTK (Turkish History Association), offered you to make researches together and you accepted it. Doesn’t the Gomidas Institute and the TTK stand in opposition to each other on the events of 1915 ?

A.S. : Despite all our differences in the past, I accepted Dr. Halacoglu’s offer in good faith. I will try to work with him and the TTK as well as I can. The TTK and the Gomidas Institute stands in opposition to each other on the events of 1915. But I hope we can show by our example that it is still possible to agree and disagree with each other in a scholarly manner, in the interest of truth, as well as peace. Besides, the TTK is not the only body that discusses the Armenian issue in Turkey. There are many other official and unofficial organisations, as well as private individuals, who already take part in such work and discussions. The Gomidas Institute is only one party in this debate.

O.K. : Don’t you see any pitfalls and difficulties ahead ?

A.S. : Yes, there is always the possibility of failure for all sorts of reasons. But that is not a reason not to try. Peace is a great prize we can all share together.

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The red highlighted sections below and on the second page are for the specific references to the Armenian genocide.


Dhimmitude and The Doyen
June 4th, 2006

Recently, multiple deserving tributes to Bernard Lewis’ career as a scholar, and public intellectual, have been written in celebration of this remarkable nonagenarian (see here for example )—the latest by Reuel Gerecht appearing in the Wednesday May 31, 2006 online edition of The Weekly Standard, coincided exactly with his 90th birthday. Gerecht, in his lavish praise, maintains that Lewis,

…has attained a stature in the field and with the general reading public unrivaled by any historian, living or dead, of the Middle East and Islam. His range of writings—from the pre-Islamic period, through Islam’s classical and medieval ages and its premodern “gunpowder” empires, to today’s Muslim nation-states—is simply unparalleled by any other scholar, even from the golden age of Islamic studies in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when the field’s terrifyingly erudite, multilingual European founding fathers—the much despised “orientalists”—bestrode the earth. Lewis is the last and greatest of the orientalists…

Whether or not one accepts all of Gerecht’s assertions, there can be little debate regarding Lewis’ “unrivaled” current stature, particularly as a public intellectual. And in discussing how Lewis’ views have evolved over his enduring and illustrious career, Gerecht highlights a striking example:

In 1945, for example, Lewis was not in favor of a Jewish state in Palestine; today, he is, seeing Israel as one of the things that has gone more right than wrong in the region.

Gerecht might have also cited the evolution of Lewis’ thought on the Muslim conception of freedom, or “hurriyya”. At present, Lewis worries,

The war against terror and the quest for freedom are inextricably linked, and neither can succeed without the other. The struggle is no longer limited to one or two countries, as some Westerners still manage to believe. It has acquired first a regional then a global dimension, with profound consequences for all of us. . . . If freedom fails and terror triumphs, the peoples of Islam will be the first and greatest victims. They will not be alone, and many others will suffer with them.

Previously, analyzing hurriyya/freedom for the venerable Encyclopedia of Islam, Lewis discussed this concept in the latter phases of the Ottoman Empire, through the contemporary era. After highlighting a few “cautious” or “conservative” (Lewis’ characterization) reformers and their writings, Lewis maintains,

…there is still no idea that the subjects have any right to share in the formation or conduct of government—to political freedom, or citizenship, in the sense which underlies the development of political thought in the West. While conservative reformers talked of freedom under law, and some Muslim rulers even experimented with councils and assemblies government was in fact becoming more and not less arbitrary…

Lewis also makes the important point that Western colonialism ameliorated this chronic situation:

During the period of British and French domination, individual freedom was never much of an issue. Though often limited and sometimes suspended, it was on the whole more extensive and better protected than either before or after. [emphasis added]

And Lewis concludes with a stunning observation, when viewed in light of the present travails in Iraq and throughout the Muslim world, as well as his own evolved views:

In the final revulsion against the West, Western democracy too was rejected as a fraud and a delusion, of no value to Muslims.

In stark contrast, Lewis’ views have remained unchanged on the subject of the plight of those non-Muslims living under Islamic rule—what Bat Ye’or’s own remarkable scholarship has characterized with painstaking elegance as the civilization of dhimmitude (here, and here). Writing in 1974 ( vol. 2, p.217) Lewis maintained,

The dhimma on the whole worked well. The non-Muslims managed to thrive under Muslim rule, and even to make significant contributions to Islamic civilization. The restrictions were not onerous, and were usually less severe in practice than in theory. As long as the non-Muslim communities accepted and conformed to the status of tolerated subordination assigned to them, they were not troubled. The rare outbreaks of repression or violence directed against them are almost always the consequence of a feeling that they have failed to keep their place and honor their part of the covenant. The usual cause was the undue success of Christians or Jews in penetrating to positions of power and influence which Muslims regarded as rightly theirs. The position of the non-Muslims deteriorated during and after the Crusades and the Mongol invasions, partly because of the general heightening of religious loyalties and rivalries, partly because of the well-grounded suspicion that they were collaborating with the enemies of Islam.

More recently, Lewis in a rather flippant pronouncement, characterized the conception of “dhimmi-tude” (derisively hyphenated, as he wrote it), “…subservience and persecution and ill treatment” of Jews, specifically, under Islamic rule, as a “myth”.

The late S.D. Goitein (d. 1985), was a Professor Emeritus of the Hebrew University, scholar at The Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, and a contemporary of Lewis. The New York Times obituary for Professor Goitein (published on February 10, 1985) noted, appositely, that his seminal (and prolific) writings on Islamic culture, and Muslim-Jewish relations, were “…standard works for scholars in both fields”. Here is what Goitein wrote (from, S.D. Goitein. “Minority Self-rule and Government Control in Islam” Studia Islamica, No. 31, 1970, pp. 101, 104-106) on the subject of non-Muslim dhimmis under Muslim rule, i.e., dhimmitude, circa 1970:

...a great humanist and contemporary of the French Revolution, Wilhelm von Humboldt, defined as the best state one which is least felt and restricts itself to one task only: protection, protection against attack from outside and oppression from within…in general, taxation [by the Muslim government] was merciless, and a very large section of the population must have lived permanently at the starvation level. From many Geniza letters one gets the impression that the poor were concerned more with getting money for the payment of their taxes than for food and clothing, for failure of payment usually induced cruel punishment… the Muslim state was quite the opposite of the ideals propagated by Wilhelm von Humboldt or the principles embedded in the constitution of the United States. An Islamic state was part of or coincided with dar al-Islam, the House of Islam. Its treasury was mal al-muslumin, the money of the Muslims. Christians and Jews were not citizens of the state, not even second class citizens. They were outsiders under the protection of the Muslim state, a status characterized by the term dhimma, for which protection they had to pay a poll tax specific to them. They were also exposed to a great number of discriminatory and humiliating laws…As it lies in the very nature of such restrictions, soon additional humiliations were added, and before the second century of Islam was out, a complete body of legislation in this matter was in existence…In times and places in which they became too oppressive they lead to the dwindling or even complete extinction of the minorities.

Bat Ye’or’s own extensive analyses of the dhimmi condition for both Jews and Christians published (in English) in 1985 and 1996, are summarized here:

..These examples are intended to indicate the general character of a system of oppression, sanctioned by contempt and justified by the principle of inequality between Muslims and dhimmis…Singled out as objects of hatred and contempt by visible signs of discrimination, they were progressively decimated during periods of massacres, forced conversions, and banishments. Sometimes it was the prosperity they had achieved through their labor or ability that aroused jealousy; oppressed and stripped of all their goods, the dhimmi often emigrated.”

…in many places and at many periods [through] the nineteenth century, observers have described the wearing of discriminatory clothing, the rejection of dhimmi testimony, the prohibitions concerning places of worship and the riding of animals, as well as fiscal charges- particularly the protection charges levied by nomad chiefs- and the payment of the jizya…Not only was the dhimma imposed almost continuously, for one finds it being applied in the nineteenth century Ottoman Empire…and in Persia, the Maghreb, and Yemen in the early twentieth century, but other additional abuses, not written into the laws, became absorbed into custom, such as the devshirme, the degrading corvees (as hangmen or gravediggers), the abduction of Jewish orphans (Yemen), the compulsory removal of footware (Morocco, Yemen), and other humiliations…The recording in multiple sources of eye-witness accounts, concerning unvarying regulations affecting the Peoples of the Book, perpetuated over the centuries from one end of the dar al-Islam to the other…proves sufficiently their entrenchment in customs.

Thus it is not surprising that in a letter (personal communication) dated April 7, 1977 hand written to Bat Ye’or and her historian husband, referring to their earliest (French and English) writings (see for examples, Les Juifs en Egypte Geneva: Editions de l’Avenir, 1971, and this; this; this; and this), Goitein wrote,

I do not think our opinions on the history of the dhimmi differ widely. It is merely a difference of emphasis

Another seminal modern scholar of Islamic civilization, Speros Vryonis Jr. , endorses Bat Ye’or’s (see this, p. 115) negative view of the Ottoman devshirme-janissary system which, from the mid to late 14th, through early 18th centuries, enslaved and forcibly converted to Islam an estimated 500,000 to one million non-Muslim (primarily Balkan Christian) adolescent males. Lewis’ divergent characterization portrays this institution as a benign form of social advancement, jealously pined for by “ineligible” Ottoman Muslim families:

The role played by the Balkan Christian boys recruited into the Ottoman service through the devshirme is well known. Great numbers of them entered the Ottoman military and bureaucratic apparatus, which for a while came to be dominated by these new recruits to the Ottoman state and the Muslim faith. This ascendancy of Balkan Europeans into the Ottoman power structure did not pass unnoticed, and there are many complaints from other elements, sometimes from the Caucasian slaves who were their main competitors, and more vocally from the old and free Muslims, who felt slighted by the preference given to the newly converted slaves

Vryonis rejects categorically Lewis’s celebratory assessment with these deliberately understated, but cogent observations :

…in discussing the devshirme we are dealing with the large numbers of Christians who, in spite of the material advantages offered by conversion to Islam, chose to remain members of a religious society which was denied first class citizenship. Therefore the proposition advanced by some historians, that the Christians welcomed the devshirme as it opened up wonderful opportunities for their children, is inconsistent with the fact that these Christians had not chosen to become Muslims in the first instance but had remained Christians…there is abundant testimony to the very active dislike with which they viewed the taking of their children. One would expect such sentiments given the strong nature of the family bond and given also the strong attachment to Christianity of those who had not apostacized to Islam…First of all the Ottomans capitalized on the general Christian fear of losing their children and used offers of devshirme exemption in negotiations for surrender of Christian lands. Such exemptions were included in the surrender terms granted to Jannina, Galata, the Morea, Chios, etc…Christians who engaged in specialized activities which were important to the Ottoman state were likewise exempt from the tax on their children by way of recognition of the importance of their labors for the empire…Exemption from this tribute was considered a privilege and not a penalty…

…there are other documents wherein their [i.e., the Christians] dislike is much more explicitly apparent. These include a series of Ottoman documents dealing with the specific situations wherein the devshirmes themselves have escaped from the officials responsible for collecting them…A firman…in 1601 [regarding the devshirme] provided the [Ottoman] officials with stern measures of enforcement, a fact which would seem to suggest that parents were not always disposed to part with their sons.

‘..to enforce the command of the known and holy fetva [fatwa] of Seyhul [Shaikh]- Islam. In accordance with this whenever some one of the infidel parents or some other should oppose the giving up of his son for the Janissaries, he is immediately hanged from his door-sill, his blood being deemed unworthy.’

Perhaps most concerning in the realm of dhimmitude have been Lewis’ inexplicably evolved views on the jihad genocide of the Armenians. His renowned The Emergence of Modern Turkey, originally published in 1962 (reissued in 1968 and 2002), includes these characterizations of the mass killings of the Armenians by the Turks in 1894-96, 1909, and 1915:

(1894-96, p. 202) The Armenian participants mindful of the massacres of 1894-96, were anxious to seek the intervention of the European powers as a guarantee of effective reforms in the Ottoman Empire [in the 20th century].

(1909, p. 216) With suspicious simultaneity a wave of outbreaks spread across Anatolia. Particularly bad were the events of the Adana district, which culminated in the massacre of thousands of Armenians…While Europe was appalled by Turkish brutality, Muslim opinion was shocked by what seemed to them the insolence of the Armenians and the hypocrisy of Christian Europe. The Turks were, however, well aware of the painful effects produced by these massacres in Europe, which had not yet forgotten the horrors of the Hamidian repression [i.e, the 1894-96 massacres]

(1915, p. 356) Now a desperate struggle between them [i.e., the Turks and Armenians] began, a struggle between two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a million and a half Armenians perished.

Thus when Lewis wrote his authoritative history of modern Turkey, he understood, and made explicit, that the Armenians had been massacred under successive Ottoman governments in 1894-96, and 1909. Moreover, he maintains that the Armenians were subjected in 1915 to a “holocaust”, during which 1.5 million “perished”. By 1985, however, Lewis was the most prominent signatory on a petition to the US Congress protesting the effort to make April 24 – the date the Armenians commemorate the victims of the genocide – a nationwide Armenian-American memorial day, which would include the mention of man’s inhumanity to man. Both this petition drive and a simultaneous high profile media advertisement campaign were financed by the Committee of the Turkish Association. Vryonis has raised, unabashedly, the appropriate questions and accompanying concerns regarding Lewis’ actions:

When was Professor Lewis expressing an objective opinion: when he wrote the book [i.e., The Emergence of Modern Turkey, 1962/68 versions], or when he signed the political ad? To phrase it more bluntly, what shall we believe? Certainly, the data available to him in the writing of the book were sufficiently clear and convincing for him to proceed to these three clear and unequivocal statements [i.e., describing the 1894-96, and 1909 events as massacres of the Armenians by the Turks, and the 1915 slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians by the Turks as a holocaust]. What had changed? The subject had entered the sphere of politics, and Prof. Lewis, along with so many other signers of the ad, had decided to take sides where their economic, professional, personal, and emotional interests lay: with the Turkish government, and not with history.*

Furthermore, during the past decade, as Yair Auron has observed, when Lewis was requested,

…to make available the academic research published in recent years, which, in his professional opinion, constitute the basis for the change from his original position to his new position that there was no state-planned or administered genocide/mass murder of the Armenians…Lewis did not respond to this demand, even though he noted that letters to him and his reply would be published.

Auron’s final assessment is apt:

Lewis’ stature [has] provided a lofty cover for the Turkish national agenda of obfuscating academic research on the Armenian Genocide.

Lewis’ wildly fluctuating opinions aside, a consensus among bona fide genocide scholars has emerged which is consistent with Richard Rubenstein’s conclusion from 1975, that the 1915 Turkish massacre of the Armenians was,

…the first full-fledged attempt by a modern state to practice disciplined, methodically organized genocide

And Bat Ye’or reminds us why the Armenian genocide was a jihad genocide committed against a non-Muslim people “violating” the ancient dhimma, a “…breach…[which] restored to the umma [the Muslim community] its initial right to kill the subjugated minority [the dhimmis], [and] seize their property…”. Moreover, the massacres,

were perpetrated solely by Muslims and they alone profited from the booty: the victims’ property, houses, and lands granted to the muhajirun, and the allocation to them of women, and child slaves. The elimination of male children over the age of twelve was in accordance with the commandments of the jihad and conformed to the age fixed for the payment of the jizya. The four stages of the liquidation – deportation, enslavement, forced conversion, and massacre – reproduced the historic conditions of the jihad carried out in the dar-al-harb from the seventh century on. Chronicles from a variety of sources, by Muslim authors in particular, give detailed descriptions of the organized massacres or deportation of captives, whose sufferings in forced marches behind the armies paralleled the Armenian experience in the twentieth century.

Bernard Lewis possesses an enormous fund of knowledge regarding Islamic civilization accrued over a distinguished career of more than six decades of serious scholarship. A gifted linguist, non-fiction prose writer, and teacher, Lewis shares his understanding of Muslim societies in both written and oral presentations, with singular economy and eloquence. These are extraordinary attributes for which Lewis richly deserves the accolades lavished upon him in the recent spate of 90th birthday homages. And even Lewis’ detractors cannot deny his deep seated affection and genuine concern for the Muslim world. For example, Ian Buruma sees Lewis’ cheerleading role in relation to the war in Iraq as a manifestation of this phenomenon:

…perhaps he loves it too much. It is a common phenomenon among Western students of the Orient to fall in love with a civilization…. His beloved civilization is sick. And what would be more heartwarming to an old Orientalist than to see the greatest Western democracy cure the benighted Muslim?

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But Lewis’ remarkable contributions are diminished by a yawning gap in his understanding of dhimmitude, including an apparent unwillingness to even acknowledge this uniquely Islamic institution. His myriad works and addresses are largely devoid of the concerns for the dhimmis—past (here, and here) present (here), and ominously, future (here)—Lewis freely expresses for their Muslim overlords. This critical limitation and its implications must also be recognized by all those for whom Lewis remains an iconic source of information, and advice.

* Note: The 2002 edition of The Emergence of Modern Turkey, p. 356, reads:

Now a desperate struggle between them [i.e., the Turks and Armenians] began, a struggle between two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the terrible slaughter of 1915, when, according to estimates, more than a million Armenians perished, as well as an unknown number of Turks.

In this revised text, “slaughter” replaces “holocaust”, the estimate of the Armenians who “perished” is changed from 1.5 million to “according to estimates, more than a million”, and a concluding remark is added referring to the “unknown number of Turks” who also perished in the putative struggle for possession of a single homeland. Peter Balakian makes these germane observations (from, The Burning Tigris, New York, 2003, p. 432, note 25):

…without any substantiation, Lewis dispense of the Armenian Genocide in a couple of sentences, calling it a ‘a struggle between two nations for the possession of a single homeland’. Lewis never explains how an unarmed, Christian ethnic minority in the Ottoman Empire could be fairly called a ‘nation’, that could engage in a ‘struggle’ with a world power (the Ottoman Empire) for a single homeland. In a recent interview, There Was No Genocide: Interview with Prof. Bernard Lewis, by Dalia Karpel, Ha’aretz (Jerusalem, January 23, 1998), Lewis asserts that the massacres of the Armenians were not the result ‘of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government’. These evasions are aimed at trivializing the Armenian Genocide.

Andrew Bostom is the author of The Legacy of Jihad.

Andrew G. Bostom

This article is from THE AMERICAN THINKER (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5550)

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