I demand an answer from leftwingers - The Road to Guantanamo (2006) Discussion

[–] 17 years ago

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Cause and effect. Are Muslims just bad or were they made bad by the conditions & treatment in the UK or elsewhere?

In spite of all the hysteria & paranoia, US muslims are not like those in Europe. That may be because they have jobs & make a living.

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

adamwarlock: You show your ignorance when you speak of the muslims'
conditions and treatment in the UK - they get exactly what everyone else gets, which is free health care, free education and if they need it, free housing. Some of them do very well, and funnily enough, it is from among them that the most violent and dedicated jihadis are often drawn. Additionally, no one aske dthem to come to the UK and they can always go home if they don't like it. The UK unlike muslim societies, is a free country.

US muslims are not like those in Europe?? I hope you are right, because I don't want to be blown up - but they'll bear watching and they are being watched, aren't they??

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[–] adamwarlock 17 years ago

US Muslims are quite cause they are way down the minority scale after Hispanics, African-Americans, Chinese, even Native Americans. I hear them say they are scared of people attacking them but I never heard the utter hatred towards the country that I hear from UK or French Muslims. Those guys seem to want a fight.

We're already thought of as using Serb methods.

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[–] aileenew 17 years ago

I am shocked by your ignorance...how can you lump in all Eupopean, British Muslims as extremists? I kind of thought that now we have all seen how Borat makes his spin people will start to understand how racism functions.
Why don't you consider George Bush an extremist, has he not caused the invasion of Iraq, Afganistan...etc?

The extremist element of any religion are usually the people who scream and shout the loudest, hence Newsworthy....Newspapers/Newsbins only print sensation. Wee don't hear all the stories of peaceful Muslims living in out British towns and working for peace in our communities.

Come on, the idea that these "guys only want a fight" makes you sound like a racist.
Why not try and actually understand the situation that thousands of young men of ethnic heritage have been placed in?
How easy is it to tell a Muslim from a Hindu, from a Buddist, from a Christian??? You know colour and religion become meaningless in the bigger picture.

The truth is the American Government arte still hurting over 9/11 and they will beat up anyone who they think may have been involved with or with out proof. Their actions have cause a cascade of violence across the world, which we may never see an end to.

I am not left wing nor am I religious, but I hope and pray that people start to understand the individual, not the colour before all this racism leads to genocide....and don't tell me that Bush would never go that far.

;-p

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[–] adamwarlock 17 years ago

I am against Bush and would be thought of as more to the left than anything but I am not going to follow the left in everything. Reports I've seen from France, Holland and the UK do not paint a pretty picture of Muslims there. I didn't say this is their fault, I believe those countries make their Muslims feel unwelcome hence all kinds of young Muslims running around full of hate. Not everyone but enough to kill Van Gogh in Ammerstdam or riot for days in Paris and Manchester.

Muslims in the US face similar problems but I don't see riots or radical clerics here (mostly cause they get arrested or deported). People here are getting used to non-white immigrants taking the jobs that whitre Americans won't do anymore. Most don't have a problem with Muslims or Hindus or Latinos.

The threatment of terror suspects as seen in this film is wrong even if they are guilty. We should be using our system to show that it works, to junk it cause they are "really bad people" is ridiculous. We tried the Nazis and Charles manson in our system and it worked.

I'm for the invasion of Afghanistan, how it was done could have been vastly better. We should have fitted up that country first before any other move. Iraq was unnecessary and now we are stuck with it. To leave or stay makes no difference, damned either way. This involves the surrounding countries as Turkey won't want a Kurdish country declared in northern Iraq, Iran would want to unite with the Iraqi Shia which will make the Sunni countries nervous, etc.

Thanks to revisonist historians, most like to claim Vietnam was lost due to the bad press, the public tiring and not sending more troops in. So the right wingers won't be satisfied until they get more troops in to see if that will work & claim any show of disunity will empower the enemy. But Bush will have to wrap it up during 2008 as his party won't want anti-Bush feelings to taint whomever is the Republican nominee in November. I say some kind of solution will be presented by mid-2008.

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[–] tullock 17 years ago

adamwarlock...You are very wrong to suggest that Britain (amongst other European countries)made Muslims unwelcome,hence their hostility.The people of Britain are a very tolerant bunch and the bulk of us have bent over backwards to help all cultures here integrate.The bulk of immigrants, be they Chinese,Indian,Polish or West Indians have integrated well over the past 50 years or so.Although they have their own beliefs they have enveloped our traditions ,culture and dress and make every effort to 'fit in'.Not so the bulk of Muslims.They DEMAND to wear their full face scarves,DEMAND that we change our culture,DEMAND their own laws,DEMAND to be left to their own devices.The list goes on and on.Their young men go to Afghanistan to fight OUR troops.They have marches where they hold placards DEMANDING that OUR troops be killed and that we are all 'KAFFIRS' and 'INFIDELS'and our PATHETIC Government caves in to their every demand.Now,obviously all Muslims in this country are not like this,BUT an awful lot are.As I mentioned in a previous post almost 40% said they supported the suicide bombings in London.This is really frightening.If we were truly a racist country then how come the West Indians and the Chinese and the Indians and the Poles and all the other immigrants don't make the incessant demands on us or send their youngsters to kill us?
Just to finish.A student at one of our top Universities printed a caracature of Mohammad in a student magazine.He was immediatly moved to a 'safe house'as university staff were concerned for his safety after Muslim students threatened him.A spokesman defending the Muslim students said that they were very distressed by the cartoon.Today satire died in Britain.It makes me weep.

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[–] adamwarlock 17 years ago

Well, what you just told me, tullock, doesn't sound very encouraging. Most of the immigrants want a better life for themselves and aren't from such a strict culture as is Islam. I've worked with Chinese and Dominicans and Poles and Guyanese without any problems. But they are all either Christian or not that dedicated to their religion as the need to make a better life for themselves. European countries are more homogeneous than the US or Canada so there is that feeling of "we're British here, things have to be done the British way." There are American ways of doing things but as most white Americans are descended from immigrants who kept at least some of the traditions of the old country with them, we're not against wearing sharves or displaying flags and what not (with the exception of the few racist groups). Italian families fly the Italian flag, root for Italy in the World Cup, celebrate Italian holidays, etc. So far, no major cases involving the rights of Muslims to wear their tradtional clothes or to pray in the work place. The ones fighting for "special" rights here are gays.

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[–] tullock 17 years ago

I take in what your saying.But the difference with a lot of the younger Muslims is that they are attempting to force their beliefs on us.A few examples....
1. A couple of years ago there was a national poster advertising campaign featuring an attractive young lady in a bikini.Muslims in London,Bimingham and several other large cities demanded it be withdrawn as it offended them.Our soft Government caved in and withdrew the hoardings in inner city areas.
2.A couple of weeks back a woman went into a branch of W H Smiths (A large retail chain in the UK),to buy cigarettes.A young Muslim woman was behind the counter and blatantly refused to serve the woman as selling tobacco was against her beliefs.Astonishingly WH Smith's management backed her saying that no-one else was available to serve and they had to bow to her wishes!
3.At a recent police recruit passing out parade a young Muslim woman refused to shake hands with the Chief Constable (The big boss),as it was against her religion to touch other men apart from her husband.How she was supposed to arrest any male criminals without touching them was never explained!
We have Muslim only swimming lessons,Muslim youths get free driving lessons from local councils,Muslim Sharia building societies do not have to submit books to the Inland Revenue (The tax man),female Muslim women get free fishing lessons as the authorities deem the sport to be too 'young white male' orientated,very few Muslims join our Army as they are ordered not to fight for 'The Infidels',the British police have to tread on eggshells when dealing with suspected Muslim criminals as they are automatically branded racists,numerous Muslims do not bother to learn even basic English so we have the ridiculous scenario throughout the country of local councillors needing translaters (at the tax payers expense).The list goes on and on and even after we have literally bent over backwards for them they still demand more.Unless you have experienced it is very hard to describe the situation over here.Obviously all Muslim people are not like this,I know many myself who are fine citizens ,but the more disruptive element seems to be taking over.

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[–] domagoj1973 17 years ago

Well how about human rights and the rights of Christians in Saudi Arabia?Are there any rights of Christians there?Or how about Iran?
I guess they want the same rules of their dictatorships to be approved in Europe.
But no...not in Serbia and not in Croatia,never surrender.

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[–] adamwarlock 17 years ago

Certainly these examples from tullock are things I would not support. Accomadating someone's beliefs are one thing, changing the whole system for a few or an individual is ludicriss. We have the language problem over here as many neighborhoods that are Hispanic basically become Spanish only (signs, store keepers, etc.). It's like only Spanish speaking people can go there. The cops have to learn Spanish to get by or they won't be able to question or arrest anyone. Chinatowns are similar but they seem to have a way of keeping to themselves so to Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods. Plenty of translators and bi-lingual personel needed at tax payer expense. Some have suggested Spanish & English be made the 2 official languages.

In most urban areas, the feeling is do your own thing as long as you don't bother me. The US population is more relgiously inclined than Europe so Muslims practicing their religion is kind of OK as opposed to being an atheist, homosexual, promiscuous, pro-porno, drug using, soft on crime leftie. Then the fundamentalist Christians, Muslims and Jews have something to unite over.

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[–] Radiant_Rose 17 years ago

Muslim youths get free driving lessons from local councils,

Proof?
----------------------

Nicebat and I had to party.

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Rose: What do you mean, proof? Accept what you are told or do your own research, who do you think you are...Idiot???

And FYI, muslim youths are allowed access to my local very well appointed and expensive gym free of charge because they are disadvantaged. Want proof?? Look for it - upper uranus

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Well, Tullock - that's why the BNP is gaining popularity, and why I thank god every day that my family and I are dual nationals are can come and go as we please - butit really hurts when I see what England has become. Of course, you know where the blame really lies,don't you/ Obviously, despicable as it is, the muslims are going to grab every advantage and opportunity to oppress teh British in their own country, but who is allowing them to do this?? The lefty liberal white elitist self loathers, of course. They are ethe true traitors - the muslims could seen be brought to heel with some serious policing and legislation putting them in their place, but the PC brigade will not allow it.

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[–] hass45 17 years ago

I don't understand the problem. Once they anyone immigrates to Britain and becomes a British citizen, they become...british citizens. Therefore they can "DEMAND" anything they want...right? Britain is a free country, and all its inhabitants and citizens are free to do whatever they want (under the law). Plus, it sounds to me as if it is people like you who are FORCING YOUR culture on them, trying to make them "British"...they already are british! And all the other races you mentioned as trying to "fit in". I'm not so sure. Everyone one of them has brought a new piece to British culture, and I'm not sure that they have changed as much as Britain has changed (After all, what is Britain's national dish?...curry!) I also have a problem with you lumping "an awful lot" of people into one bin. BTW could you send me the source that said 40% of Muslims approved of the suicide bombings in London. Thanks!

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

hass45 - Be informed - some people are acceptable and some are not - fundamentalist muslims are not = a piece of paper does not make British = a piece of paper can be take away and will be , in large numbers if things don't improve soon. Britain is not pakistan, and if pakistanis immigrants want to remain pakistani then that's where they should stay. BYW, I don't know who told you the British national dish is curry - that's been around sincce the 18th century = we eat all sorts of foods these days, but roast beef and yorkshire pudding still tops the list, and why should it not!!!

Incidentally, the demands that the muslims make are acceptable only if they do not offend the rest of us - so much for your cock eyed ignorant theory.

And google the source of that quote about 40% of UK muslims approving the suicie bombings yourself, don't be so lazy!!!

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

adamwarlock: Muslims are unwelcome in such large numbers and with such arrogant attitudes in europe - they have brought it upon themselves. I'm afraid that it is only a matter of time before US muslims take a similar course - I may be wrong, and I hope I am. but we'll see!!

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[–] jeopardy23 17 years ago

Your statement about those opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan being your enemies is avery extreme statement. After 9-11 the Taliban offered to turn Osama over to a third country to stand trial but that offer was rejected by the White House. Why didn't Charlie Wilson who thought that the precursors to the Taliban were freedom fighters or Sylvestor Stallone who played Osama's best friend Rambo get put in Gitmo? The main result of the invasion of Afghanistan is the flourishing of the poppy trade and the export of more Heroin to the U.S.

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[–] jnatch 17 years ago

How about posing a question, you moron

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] jomay-1 17 years ago

I was dumbfounded and enveloped in horror on 9/11. Consumed by the stories of survivors and the lives ended I was heartbroken at the condition of my world.

Then the retaliation of the US upon the Taliban nations began and my first human response was the US should bomb the **** out of 'em!

Then I recently watched "The World Trade Centre" with Nicholas Cage. My first response was I hate the people that did this - not the nations they were from nor the religions, only the individuals involved.

THEN I realised that's what they (terrorists) wanted. Not to murder 3000 people; much more than that. Create hatred upon hatred upon hatred....

I don't want them to have anymore control over anymore lives. Their souls were corrupted but I will not let them corrupt mine.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] shava23 17 years ago

I'm coming to this rather late, researching winterbottom in anticipation of this months' release of A Mighty Heart.

But tullock, a few points:

Moazzem Begg co-founded the bookstore and worked there in the past, but I can't find any reference that he was still involved with it.

The bookshop in question also is reported to have cookbooks and children's books.

Most of the Judaica bookshops I've ever been in were stacked high with anti-Arab literature, but somehow this doesn't make us American Jews suspect (or does it?). It's part of our history, and yes, for some folks, it's also part of our present.

The early administrations of Israel were riddled with young "freedom fighters" far more dangerous than anything that's come out of Britain so far. This conflict has a long and bloody history that didn't start on 9/11/01 -- in fact, the Brits contributed to it substantially in their handling of the Mandate in the 1940's, but then you can go back to the partition of the Ottoman Empire after WWI, or back to...

Some people just can't let go of old ideas, I suppose. Those who can't learn from history...:)

Anti-Moslem sentiment is also a tradition in Britain, so should we shut down every bookshop with histories of Richard the Lionheart's crusade?

*yawn* If you'd walked into the store, you'd see what you wanted to.

I recommend taking your blood pressure meds, having a nice cup of tea, and avoiding the news for a while.

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[–] al666940-3 17 years ago

The answer...

To whomever the fock started this nonsense of a post...

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Shaver: Very supercilious, it;'s not for you to recommend anything to anybody, so mind your own business.
since you, like all your sort, insist on dragging the British into everything, I'll tell you something that will make you laugh your little kippur off your little head - as it just so happens I lost a cousin in the King David HOtel explosion. He was his widowed mother's only child, married three months, and there was scarcely enough left of him to bury (good job he wasn't an orthodox jew or a muslim, wouldn't you say?) I'm sure that will give you a nice warm feeling thinking that one of those brits got what was coming to him. Mazeltov!!

Some people just can't let go of old ideas, I suppose, and I guess that's why muslims have such difficulty in adapting to life in the UK - they don't seem to be able to make any adjustments at all.

And now we come to the Crusades .... which as you know the muslims both started and won, and that must be true because they invaded what had been christian settled lands, and everyone in that area is now muslim = no brainer!!. However, that is not enough for them, they now demand that the cross of "St George, red cross on a white field, be banned from the UK, as it is the crusader symbol and offends them. Gosh, they really can't adjust at all, can they??

So I recommend that you exert yourself a bit and pull your head out of your a&se and realise that the people of Britain (I mean the host population) have rights which supercede those of incomers and they intend to exert them. I'd try a nice glass of Manichevitz if I were you!!!

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[–] gekarlin 17 years ago

"Last week in Britain several Muslims were arrested in connection with a plot to kidnap a serving Muslim British soldier and video him being beheaded.NOW it just so happens that one of the bookshops that were raided in connection with this investigation and found to be stacked high with anti-western literature WAIT FOR IT.....was joint owned by none other than Moazzem Begg,another of the Tipton Taliban recently released from Guantanamo Bay."

Raided in connection with... that is no guarantee Moazzem Begg was in on the plot. Even if he knew said offenders he could have been just a friend and/or unaware of their plans.
What is anti-western litterature? We all know how the media works. Chances are there was just a copy of Michael Moore's "Stupid white men" in there and the sensationalist media magically transformed it into anti western litterature.
And even if we knew as a clear and stated fact that Begg was in on this iy just shows how useless Guantanamo is. Random Arab dudes snatched of the streets of Venice toils 5 years in a barbed wire cage. Some never gets realesed. Moazzem begg is guilty as sin and gets sent home.

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[–] WhitePhosphorus 17 years ago

"o I now have to demand that at least one of you have the guts to answer this one,no matter how distastful it may be to you....."

I'm a leftwinger, and if you really want an honest answer, here goes.

Without looking at any evidence of what you stated, perhaps the Tipton three were guilty after all.

Does that answer your question?

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[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Of course they were *beep* guilty!!!

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[–] theskippyspartan 15 years ago

This is my view, and i respect your opinions guys so i won't bash your opinions.
imgaine this, your a muslim born and raised in America, but not heavily religious, much liek most people say they are christains but don't really give a crap about the values and ethics of religions. You go on holiday to Afghanistan to see relitives, and give some money to family members so they can get by. Then u are arrested, blind folded, and flown to Guantanomo bay Cuba.

Now, you put in a cell, with no explanation why you are there, ur are sleep depraved, questioned, tortured and basically locked in a cage for 2 years without contact with ur family. Upon your release, ur captor s say to you, we would liek for you to help us out and find more extremists, your reply (and quite frankly my reply if this happend to me) is "BEEP OFF". You are sent home to America, the two years ina cell has casued you to be more in touch with your faith...but now you have a strong hatred against your captors and all you want is some sweet revenge.

"When you cage a beast, the beast gets angry, and when you release it..it will proably bite back"

My belief is this, by systiamtically hunting down people, abusing them, threating them, and imprisoning theme you jsut make more god dam enemies, and more problems. Guantanmo works liek aprison, it dosn't fix anyone, all it does is make them worse. How many prisoners from prisons aroudn the world get released and then within a few months they are snet back again, this time for killing those who sent them their?

Al iam saying is this, be careful fighting fire with fire ins omecase may seem liek the only option, but we always end up burning ourselves.

And if guantanomo is way to get revenge, revenge is a posion menat for our enemies that we end up takeking ourselves!!!

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