All English should see this film!


I agree with many of those who have commented about this film - that the English - especially those born since the 1960s, are so ignorant on this topic. I grew up in a generation where the IRA were making headlines - most of my peers are completely oblivious to what came before. Having been to Ireland and fallen in love with it, I became interested in the history and also found this film. What completely amazes me is the warmth of the Irish people towards the English. I do not feel proud of our imperial past. Although ultimately the situation developed into a situation where horrific atrocities were committed on both sides, I feel my generation has no understanding of what caused the troubles in the first place! And I agree with one of the other user comments - the UK press/culture/education serve to keep it that way. I am sitting down with my two teenage sons to watch the film with them today. We should all have a better understanding of our heritage - whether we are proud of it or not.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

^^^^^ lol you just cemented the arguement

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

how so White Star??

do you think its strange that you think a large part of your countries history is 'not important'

reply

[deleted]

i suppose the question is does history belong a land, governing body or a more global reality...? How much does perspective actually matter?
you choose to be ignorant of the 'reality', and as the saying goes..
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

reply

[deleted]

Global reality = something that actually happened.
and if you live in Ireland, north or south it is likely that your ancestors, or your friends ancestors played their part. choosing to brush it under the carpet because it was a small blip in the empire's history is a bit ridiculous and deceitful to the people who actually live there. it was a huge part of the history of Ireland as a whole

reply

[deleted]

ok boss whatever you say. im sure you speak for everyone.

reply

[deleted]

fancy a pint? you're buyin

reply

>>>then why is it the English that should learn about it?

so you consider yourself English?

reply

[deleted]

RafflestheGentlemanPerve it's not the Republic. It's Ireland. It's one country. Nothing else. If you are opposed, you are the ancestor of plantation and aren't natural to our country. I don't move to India and expect them to follow my way. Although the plantation happened in the past it STILL happened. Those in the North who have no Irish heritage are not Irish be it "Northern" Irish or Irish.

I find it weird that people from the North in Rugby want to play God Save the Queen when Wales and Scotland would rather their own. Goes to show what the "Northies" really want. To be English!

reply

[deleted]

And with this statement your bigotry is revealed.

reply

[deleted]

Let me show you how wrong you are.

Generally "southies" don't care about the north, anyone who does is too old and have other problems to worry about.

I hated this film and felt it portrayed the English overly negatively, though the Black and Tans were degenerates.

You could put the same logic to the last couple of generations of Israeli jews.... Its an incredibly ignorant statement that belies your weak education.

reply

[deleted]

If you're having trouble understanding what I've said I'd be happy to clarify for you.

reply

[deleted]

You've yet to address anything I've said. Clearly this is because you are a troll and have run out of ammunition, or you lack the intellect to assimilate statements of others.

You have been judged and found wanting.

reply

[deleted]

Highly unlikely, it's blatantly obvious that you've given up trying to smart and are instead resorting to the more basic form of troll. That being stating the opposite and trying to have the last word.

so incredibly weak, and yet so common.

reply

[deleted]

Nonono, I'll allow you to be the better man in this case.

reply

[deleted]

Somewhere a Village is missing it's idiot

"Someone shoulda told ya - never give an Irishman good cause for revenge,"

reply

[deleted]

This film is ridiculously anti-British, it was written by a Scottish Nationalist, which is why the only good british character is a Scotsmen. When in reality Scottish Regiments were just as ruthless as any other. The Irish tend to romanticise the revolution, when they could have easily achived it peacefully.

By the way my grandparents are all Irish, and suffered to some extent in the revolution. I'm writing this with pure logic, as I see it.

reply

I am from Northern Ireland and we did a bit about the easter rising and the formation of the Republic of Ireland. However we spent more time on the last 40 years as its more relevant.
interesting been to Dublin a few times and the bullet holes in the GPO are cool "in a historical no offense meant way"

reply

Yea, I remember seeing the GPO and thought that after the Rising/civil war they would have repaired it or something.

Still pretty cool.


Everything seen in the film has happened in Ireland at some point during the occupation, in regards to the soldiers being bastards at least. I personally found the film quite tame compared to reality. The acting itself and the script may be questionable though.

reply

you are from northern ireland. say no more.

reply

I am so glad to see a refreshing post! For some reason, the Irish love the English, and it's not just due to tourist revenue. I'm a second generation Englishman (from Ireland, Cavan, in fact, and proud of it), and I was astounded at how well I was received in Ireland, one of the most beautiful countries I have visited, and in fact, contemplated emigrating to. One thing though, which most Irish don't like to be reminded of, is that they are British, the British Isles include Ireland. They don't like it because they relate it (quite rightly) with 400 years of opression, mainly from the Scots and English, but they are, have always been, and will always remain, BRITISH!..It has simply become politivcally incorrect to call them such.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

reply

That term has never been accepted in any part of Ireland except by unionists.

The preferred term would be "these isles" or something along those lines. Also you forget the sea separating Ireland and England is called the Irish sea/channel w/e. You could think of it as referring to Canadians as Americans because they're from North America, but they get angry when you do :P.

As far as reception to English in the south, generally they are pretty relaxed, however some places still harbour much resentment, such as Cork, which was the last city to be sacked by British forces if the history I was taught is accurate.

reply

Sorry, but you're so so so wrong. Irish people are not British, the British Isles is a geographical term, not a political one. The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign state, and the United Kingdom is another one. Check your facts! Being from the British Isles has no bearing on the ethnicity of a citizen of Ireland, it is a geographical construct

reply

Adams5905
British isles is just a geographical name.NOBODY in ireland refers to this island as a "British isle".
If you're from british columbia your not british,if your from an island in the indian ocean you're not automatically indian.
your argument is idiotic.

reply

3 years late, but I had to comment. Disclaimer: I'm neither Irish nor English (nor from anywhere near Britain), so I don't have any personal stake in this. But this seems like basic European history.

"Britain" strictly refers only to part of the largest island of the archipelago up to what was Hadrian's Wall. Its name is derived from the Roman name for it - Britannia (formerly Albion). The name Britannia in turn is derived from the former main Celtic inhabitants of the region during the Iron Age - the Britons.

The Britons (who speak the Brythonic languages), are the ancestors of three of the six largest surviving Celtic nations - the Bretons, the Cornish, and the Welsh. The other remaining insular Celtic tribes in contrast, descend mostly from the Goidelic or Gaelic-speaking Celts, and they are the Irish, the Manx, and the Scots.

The Irish, obviously, are not Britons (though they are both Celts) and they inhabit a separate island which had a different Roman name - Hibernia. Unlike most of the other majority-Celtic territories of that time - Britannia, Gallia (France, Belgium, parts of Germany and Austria, etc.), and Iberia (Spain and Portugal) - Hibernia was never occupied by the Roman Empire and remained more or less isolated from the rest of Europe for much of its early history.

In the centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire (the Dark Ages), some Gaelic-speaking Celts from Ireland (known as the Scoti by the Romans) invaded what was Caledonia (modern Scotland) and assimilated the native non-Romanized Picts and Britons there, eventually becoming the modern Scots and the Manx. At the same time, a group of Germanic peoples (i.e. NOT Celts) ended up crossing the channel and invading most of the Roman province of Britannia. These Germanic peoples were the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes.

They assimilated or drove out the original Romanized Britons. Hence their territory (modern England) became synonymous with Britannia/Britain.

Most of the Britons fled to surviving Roman-held parts of France and Spain, more specifically in Armorica (in modern France) and Gallaecia (in modern northern Portugal and Spain). These areas also became known as Britannia because of the Britons. The Britons of France later returned to reconquer the Anglo-Saxon Britannia as allies of the Normans (Vikings) and the French.

Following me so far? There were now three Britannias. One in France, one in Spain/Portugal, and another occupied by the Anglo-Normans.

The one in Spain (more commonly known as Britonia in modern history) survived as a distinct Briton colony for a few centuries before it was eventually integrated into the neighboring Spanish kingdoms.

The one in France survived into the modern times (it's now known as Brittany). To avoid confusion, during the medieval period, the Anglo-Norman Britannia came to be referred to in Latin as "Britannia major" (Greater Britain) to distinguish it from "Britannia minor" (Lesser Britain) which referred to Brittany. Thus we get the term "Great Britain". Later on when England annexed Wales and then united with Scotland, the term "Great Britain" came to encompass the entire island, instead of just the historical Britannia.

But Ireland remains separate. The full name of the modern country of the United Kingdom is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Note how Northern Ireland isn't lumped together with "Great Britain".

The term "British Isles" is merely a colloquial geographical term. Inaccurate, arbitrary and contentious. I can think of one other similar usage: the term "Malay Archipelago". Despite the name, "Malay Archipelago" doesn't refer to Malaysia alone as it should have, but also includes Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore, East Timor, and the Philippines (despite Malays being a minority or nonexistent in the latter countries).

reply

But , after ALL that blah blah.... Is the film any good? Or did you just want to air out your knowledge?

reply

But , after ALL that blah blah.... Is the film any good? Or did you just want to air out your knowledge?

reply

If you haven't noticed, I'm replying to a post which incorrectly claimed that the Irish are British all along. Because they are not. I'm not randomly sharing trivia to impress anyone. And yes, I enjoyed the film.

reply

Really interesting what you have posted. I didn't know most of the history you explained, but I doubt many consider the Irish as British based on both islands composing the "British Isles".

reply

Thanks Oblivion, the Spanish/Portuguese Britannia is news to me. Nice post.

reply

The one problem with this film is the English are portrayed as unthinking, unfeeling, sadistic caricatures of soldiers, whereas the IRA are portrayed as noble freedom fighters who are both measured and humane.

Don't get me wrong, the movie is entertaining and all, but they took a few liberties with history, just a little. Let's just say there's some bias there. History is never so simple as "good and bad". People are individuals, and there were plenty of decent English soldiers involved in the Troubles, just as there are plenty of decent Irishmen who got caught up with the IRA. This movie isn't nearly so nuanced as that.

reply

I think maybe you're looking at this thru the prism of a modern perspective. Whereas when it all happened 100 years ago, things were very different in so many ways.

Soldiers were cannon fodder. Conquered countries were to be brutalized and emasculated. Aristocrats ruled the roost, commoners were sub-human worker bees. And so on--very different to today's mores.

the English are portrayed as unthinking, unfeeling, sadistic caricatures of soldiers
In the above context, there's a good chance that's what they were. Many had probably been dehumanized by the horror of the very recent WW1, the rest just earning the king's shilling in a colony with an alien culture which they would likely have viewed as even more sub-human. Similar to the way peoples of North America, India and Africa were/had been treated.

the IRA are portrayed as noble freedom fighters who are both measured and humane
I don't think it portrayed the IRA as an organized force, it seemed to me much more an account of how you can only push a people so far before they'll say 'enough is enough' and fight back. Such combatants are less likely to be 'unfeeling, sadistic' etc than their dehumanized opponents. In the latter part of the film, the organized Irish forces were indeed shown as more brutal during the civil war.

there were plenty of decent English soldiers involved in the Troubles
Very true. I encountered quite a few during the Northern Ireland troubles in the 90s, and they were all a credit to the English, gentlemen to the last. Which was my earlier point, making comparisons between recent times and 100 years ago is largely a waste of time--ie recent behavior doesn't presume similar behavior 100 years ago.

they took a few liberties with history
Yes, I was surprised they didn't do a better job of placing the time of the film in its historical context. There would have been two especially important events to note.

First, Britain's greatest crime against Ireland by far was the Great Famine 70 years prior, with the government's various responses best characterized as incompetent, lacking and unconcerned. For example, Trevelyan [who was in charge of the relief effort] thought ""the judgment of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson".

I probably don't need to tell you how that affected feeling towards the English for many generations afterwards--most people in the film's time would have heard first-hand accounts from parents and grandparents. The population drop from 8 million in 1840 to less than half that at the film's time is a chilling statistic of devastation on a major scale.

Second, the English strategic error in executing the leaders of the small doomed 1916 rebellion "The Easter Rising". This caused widespread revulsion among the population and abroad, and convinced many previously ambivalent people that a peaceful route was a waste of time.

Had these 'living memory' events been properly referenced, I think film viewers would have had a much clearer understanding of why the depicted English brutality was understood by the Irish to be one more continuation of centuries-long subjugation and abuse.

Then again, it's only a film, not a documentary, so I suppose it's unfair to criticize the lack of meaningful context. That's already well documented by historians, and available to anyone who wishes to explore the issues further.

Things are so different today, of course. The Irish now hate the English only one day a year, the day of the rugby international :) There is now I think great friendship and mutual respect between the two populations, perhaps best symbolized by the Queen's impressive 2011 state visit.

reply

What very, very, very many people, especially Americans (seemingly because of Hollywood) fail to understand about the current situation in Northern Ireland now and the past 50 years, is that Northern Ireland has a protestant, British, loyalist/unionist majority.

Hollywood seem to think that IRA are wonderful freedom fighters and that Northern Ireland is only part of the UK because of British *beep* refusing to cede it to Ireland.

That's not AT ALL the case. Great Britain has multiple times offered Northern Ireland either cession to Ireland or complete independency, which Northern Ireland by vote of majority has declined. Northern Irish elected officials have even pressed through laws making the UK bound to promise N.Ireland continued status as a part of the UK and not being allowed to cede the territory willy-nilly.t t
N.Irish government have made the UK pass laws that say that they can't cede N.Ireland as long as the Northern Irish public doesn't have a majority public vote for cession/independency. And they are nowhere near that.

So rather than IRA fighting the imperialistic assholic Brits, the Brits has more or less said "we give you freedom to decide for yourselves, even if it means giving up possibly industrial valuable territory to Ireland or a new N.Irish state". And the Northern Irish government have responded with "We want to have a 100 % guarantee that we will benefit the advantages of being a part of the UK as long as public opinion/vote is for it".

UK can't get rid of Northern Ireland and the probably negative economic influence it has had during the troubles even if it wanted, because it has promised that it won't just abandon it.

When you see Hollywood depictions of Northern Ireland (and IRA in particular) you would easily get the idea that Northern Ireland is occupied by the British like Ireland was 100+ years ago. That's NOT the case. There are actually more brits than irish in N.Ireland. There are more protestants than catholics. Andzi especially there are WAY more that want to keep the status quo than want to become a part of Ireland or independent. The UK grants Northern Irelanders the right to choose Irish citizenship if they want to, which also (obviously) Ireland has agreed upon.

Check out some public opinion votes or polls on the subject. The Northern Irelanders that consider themselves British are the majority. The ones who consider themselves Irish are the minority. Protestantism and Catholicism is closely related, most protestants feel they are British and vice versa, but that's not the entire truth either. The mixed cultural heritage of Northern Ireland seems to lead more and more to a unique identity, since more and more in every new poll self-identify as neither Irish nor British, they identify as "Northern Irish" - regardless if they are catholic or protestant. And if in due time Northern Ireland wants to cede from the UK in the future, I'm all but certain that it won't be to form a united Ireland - in that case it'll be independency.

There are just NO democratic reasons for anyone to think that Northern Ireland should be a part of Ireland. You have to let the inhabitants decide for themselves, and they have repeatedly decided that they will remain the status quo and that they shouldn't be forced by either Britain or Ireland to a solution they are unhappy with. I think it's so disrespectful to Northern Irelanders when American popular fiction depict IRA as some kind of heroes, do you think most Northern Irish catholics/self-identifying as Irish that are pro-unification of Ireland consider the IRA to further their cause or hamper it?

They are extremists that want to get through a cause that there is no democratic support for in the region, and they use savage means to get nowhere closer to that end. They are free to just move to Ireland if they feel so goddamn Irish, they have been granted the right to choose their citizenship.

The UK has long been understanding for both sides of the conflict, and if there were a pro-Irish majority I bet my ass that they would have ceded the territory long ago. Since they tried to do that to stop the madness even maybe 50+ years ago. But they were stopped by the Northern Irish people themselves, and you can't argue with that. At least I don't think so.

Btw, I'm neither British nor Irish. I have no stakes here. I just don't like the glorification of terrorist IRA killing random innocent civilians and Hollywood making the majority population of Northern Ireland look bad.

At the Olympic Games a Northern Irish athlete can choose if he wants to compete for the UK or Ireland. They can choose their citizenship. Most people in Northern Ireland are happy with the current situation, tensions are steadily declining, and since they in a time of crisis would be a part of one of the great economies of the world they have a pretty sweet deal going on.

reply

What very, very, very many people, especially Americans (seemingly because of Hollywood) fail to understand about the current situation in Northern Ireland now and the past 50 years, is that Northern Ireland has a protestant, British, loyalist/unionist majority.

Demographics in the North are changing fast.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0104/1224309780877.html

The British and Irish governments and the people of Northern Ireland are facing the prospect – and sooner than most people might think – of how to manage a transformed constitutional situation where the majority in the North are likely to be from a Catholic background.

reply

The curious thing is that even though there is IIRC some 45% of the population are Catholics, in opinion polls in the past on average only 25% of N. Irish people wanted a united Ireland which rather suggests that 15-20% of Catholics are reasonably happy with the status quo and don't actually want a united Ireland. So even if the Catholics start becoming the majority a vote on unification isn't necessarily going to result in a united Ireland.

"Oh dear. How sad. Never mind!"

reply

We none of us know what the future holds (one may not even be around to see the great moments of historical change) but whatever happens, I wish only good things for all the people of this island (and beyond).

We should fight the Man (bankers and politicians ), not each other.

reply

Yet Sinn Fein is the largest Irish party in Nireland. Could it be that polls are propaganda?

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

reply

What rubbish, the cause of the Troubles is the facism of Irish nationalists and their refusal to accept the existence of Irish Unionists who don't fit into their sick and evil totalitarian vision of what our homeland should be, their obsession with the 'English' pure racism. This film is just IRA propanganda

reply

[deleted]

The English have always regarded the Celtic lands of Scotland, Wales and Ireland as theirs and we simpleton Celts as custodians of their lands.

You only have to watch/read the media and the constant daily attacks by the LibLabCon-trick regime against anything that stands up to its hegemony.

Attacking the SNP in Scotland, locking up Gerry Adams in Ireland for a few days whilst electioneering is underway. Even attacking English separatists in the form of UKIP.

The ruling elite in England have an archaic view of the world, whereby they are superior to all others. This film and separatists go against the English world view and must be attacked.

Unfortunately for the English, they are a dwindling speck on the edge of nothingness. Their ruling elite (whilst attacking Celts and English separatists) also import millions of foreigners to drive down costs and wages. In future there will be no English to harangue the Celts and Celtic culture will continue to thrive in the absence of the uncultured English.

reply

The English have always regarded the Celtic lands of Scotland, Wales and Ireland as theirs and we simpleton Celts as custodians of their lands.

You only have to watch/read the media and the constant daily attacks by the LibLabCon-trick regime against anything that stands up to its hegemony.

Attacking the SNP in Scotland, locking up Gerry Adams in Ireland for a few days whilst electioneering is underway. Even attacking English separatists in the form of UKIP.

The ruling elite in England have an archaic view of the world, whereby they are superior to all others. This film and separatists go against the English world view and must be attacked.

Unfortunately for the English, they are a dwindling speck on the edge of nothingness. Their ruling elite (whilst attacking Celts and English separatists) also import millions of foreigners to drive down costs and wages. In future there will be no English to harangue the Celts and Celtic culture will continue to thrive in the absence of the uncultured English.


What a bitter post, talk about chip on your shoulder!, we may be a "dwindling speck on the edge of nothingness" but so are the Celtic nations. Ireland, Scotland and Wales are receiving a flood of immigrants as well you know, or did you think that's just happening in England?, Ireland even has Brazilians living there now.

Given the low populations of those countries I suspect they will be "dwindling speck on the edge of nothingness" long before us, Ireland especially, all the young folk are leaving.

Anyway, this film is too black and white, life isn't like that, reminds me of the old westerns, cow boy in black = bad, cowboy in white or other colour = good.

reply

Anyway, this film is too black and white
No it's not. This film presents lots of moral connundrums and there is no inherent right and wrong aside from the imposition of an outside force that caused internal divisions.
I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

reply

@thekestralhunter

This film is ridiculously anti-British, it was written by a Scottish Nationalist, which is why the only good british character is a Scotsmen. When in reality Scottish Regiments were just as ruthless as any other. The Irish tend to romanticise the revolution, when they could have easily achived it peacefully.


Easily.....how? There were no democratic elections and UK kept playing hide the Home Rule.


@eru0527
What very, very, very many people, especially Americans (seemingly because of Hollywood) fail to understand about the current situation in Northern Ireland now and the past 50 years, is that Northern Ireland has a protestant, British, loyalist/unionist majority.


You seem to forget that the border line was drawn to ENSURE a protestant majority.

They were originally going to take Donegal but feared that due to it's large catholic population it would give rise to too many catholics down the line. So they left out Donegal and took Fermanagh instead.

To refer to N.I. as Ulster is incorrect. Ulster is 9 counties and the majority of Ultser, the 9 county one, want the north back. As do the rest of the counties.

reply

Anyway, this film is too black and white No it's not. This film presents lots of moral connundrums and there is no inherent right and wrong aside from the imposition of an outside force that caused internal divisions.
I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.


I agree. If anything, this movie shows what happens when thinking is black and white, which is why we see the world that we do now.

I think this is anything but they typical American cops and robbers/cowboys and Indians type of narrative, which is why I enjoyed it.

reply