MovieChat Forums > Fast Food Nation (2007) Discussion > Responsible meat eating 101

Responsible meat eating 101

posted 16 years ago by hardtruth
60 replies | jump to latest

Ok, with one side screaming meat is murder, and the other side yelling then murder is good in bbq sauce, I thought I would write a sensible post on the subject.

1. Killing for food is not wrong. It is the law of nature. It is what every creature on this planet does in order to survive. If they aren't actively killing things then they are benefiting from the killing in some other way.

2. Eating meat is not wrong. When an animal dies it's body can either decay wastefully, or it can feed families and cloth them in some cases.

3. Mass slaughter houses are efficient and generally clean and produce low cost, high quality, meat products with little risk of disease.

And since I'm a sensible guy

4. The way these animals are raised and slaughtered is an atrocity. It is in our nature to eat meat and kill. It is not in an animals nature to grow, live, and die, on an assembly line or in a cage.

5. Mistreating animals (even animals you are about to kill) is wrong. The animals that feed us deserve our respect and our love. They give of themselves so we can live. How could you kick, torture, or mistreat such a gift? This includes the rough handling, wing and beak clipping, squeezing baby chicks poo out during sexing and tossing the babies around like a product.

6. Using animals to feed other animals is also wrong. Cow blood should not be used as a milk substitute. Feed derived from animal parts should not be used to feed other animals, especially the same species. This isn't just for moral reasons, many diseases like pryons, mad cow, etc are most infectious when animals consume the flesh of other animals in the same species. A slaughter animals diet should promote a healthy animal by feeding an appropriate amount of food (no FN force feeding ducks for fois groix) of an appropriate kind, grains and grasses for grazers, etc.

7. Animals should be slaughtered as painlessly as possible by professionals trained specifically to end their suffering in the least violent and painful manner possible. Violations should result in severe punishment for intentional distress and harsh punishment for accidental transgressions.

Everything they do with the animals body after it's dead I'm pretty open to however they need to do things to make a buck. If they want to process it on an assembly line, fine by me as long as it's clean.

Veganism is not perfect, in fact it's un-natural, unhealthy, and only in nations with such an over abundance of food will you find people so overly privaledged as to look down their noses at people who eat meat.

The meat industry is heavily flawed, mostly because people don't know how it actually works. The Meatrix short films on this movies DVD are enlightening (if contrived).

I encourage the meat eating public to watch vides like "Meet your meat" and find out what really goes down in slaughter houses. If you don't like what you see (and most wont) then fight to change it.

You don't have to be a PETA vegan to be outraged by the meat industry. You don't have to pidgeon hole yourself into one extreme or the other. I eat meat and I want animals to have it better than they have it now. That neither makes me a hypocrite or a crazy, it makes me a meat eater with a heart.

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

2. Eating meat is not wrong. When an animal dies it's body can either decay wastefully, or it can feed families and cloth them in some cases.
---

You make it sound like they are making good use of old animals. BS. The aim of animal farming is to get the animal to a useful weight as quickly as possible, ie to ensure that its life is as short as possible.

"CSI" helped my DIY!!!

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

No, nobody in their right mind would think that's how the meat packing industry works. But all animals will die. And nature is set up so that other animals, plants, and micro organisms will consume the body.

Cows, chickens, and pigs, are not natural animals living in a wild ecosystem. They have been bred and engineered by human beings for the purpose of providing us with food.

We took wild boars and bred them to be less agressive, not to have tusks, to become larger and pack on more meat, and to tolerate each other so they can live in closer proximity than wild pigs.

The same with cows and chickens. We took an original wild species and altered their evolution specifically to feed ourselves. They serve no other purpose in the world than to feed us. If released into the wild they would not survive without us.

You don't want anybody anywhere to eat meat in any form. That is your agenda and you are going to stick to it just like any other zealot. I don't expect you to see reason when you are so enamored of the religion of veganism.

PS I couldn't help but think of you when I saw this. Sometimes animals do just fine lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD5zjUbWpXY

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

And you will die one day, but it would be wrong for me to kill you. Nor do I want to. I intend to kick your ass, but only in a symbolic way.

PS Veganism is not a religion. I just don't think it is right to kill any life form unless there is a good reason.

"CSI" helped my DIY!!!

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

I'll die, you'll die, everybody we know will die, our pets will die, it's the way it is.

Yes it would be wrong for you to kill me. I'm a human being, not an animal. It would also be wrong for you to kill one of my cats, because they are considered property (and family to me).

If you owned and raised an animal with the express purpose of using it as food, it would not be wrong to kill it. If you were hunting with a license it would not be wrong to kill an animal.

Human beings and animals have different rights and I will always place the rights of human beings above the rights of animals.

Veganism IS a religion because your belief in it makes you irrational and it makes you evangelize to all those around you attempting to convert them even if you have to invent reasons, deceive or lie. I don't care if you think religion is god because that's not the case. Buddhists don't believe in an almighty being but it's one of the most practiced religions in the world.

And since you left a huge gaping loop hole in your argument that "I just don't think it is right to kill any life form.." how many plants have died to feed your vegan habits? The same things that have been done to animals, packing them in tightly in un-natural conditions, modifying their growth to make them too big, and harvesting them using machinery, all of those things apply to commercial crops just the same.

You're going to argue that plants aren't animals but you said "any life form" and whether you eat plants or animals you are still killing. The difference is that plants don't look at you when they are dying and they are quieter about it. So you really don't have any compassion for living things, you are more concerned with the guilt you feel when you kill animals that you don't feel when you kill other living things.

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Except you cannot point out anything illogical that I said.

Meat eaters are responsible for more plant deaths than I am.

My reasons for not wanting to harm more plants than I have to are to do with waste and land use and fairness and the environment.

My reasons for not wanting to hurt sentient life forms unless I have to are because they are sentient.

Not the same thing, but I apologise for not making that point clearer. Fine okay. I don't want to hurt any sentient life form unless I have to. Plus, I don't want to destroy any more plants than I have to.

You say that you put humans before non-human animals. Fine. Not going to argue about that because it is not particularly relevant. It doesn't actually give you a valid reason for eating meat. It's not as if you would die if you didn't eat meat. It's not as if you would even get weaker.

"CSI" helped my DIY!!!

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

But you're wrong Rose. People do get sick and sometimes die eating vegan diets. Veganism is an unhealthy and unnatural way to eat and that is a perfectly valid reason to eat meat. Also people who don't have so well don't have any choice in what they eat. They eat what's on the table or they starve. I don't think you realize the difference between starvation and malnutrition.

I can't help it that you are too blinded to see how you contradict yourself. You're a fool, why should you understand?

You use the word sentient life. What is sentience? That is an unanswered philosophical question really. It can't be proven to exist in animals or humans for that matter. It can't be measured or quantified. So I'll follow your argument and give you the reasons.

Human beings are intelligent
Human beings are self aware
Human beings can conceptualize and realize
Human beings are knowledgable
Human beings have complex emotions.

What this means is when you put a human being to death
1. They know they are alive, they are aware of what life is and therefor they know what death is, fear it, think about it, and agonize over the thought of dying.
2. They have complex emotions so when they agonize about dying they feel physical and mental pain even before the execution begins.

3. They anticipate both the pain and the death to come. It's a kind of psychological torture, knowing what is about to happen.

4. Human beings are self aware. We are different than any other animal on this planet in that we are not slaves to instinct. We think in abstracts and feel emotions, thoughts, and feelings that animals do not. It's not just a matter of intelligence or problem solving. A computer can reason as well as any animal but a computer will never feel pain.

We respect human life both because we are humans and it is a human trait to have compassion, but also because human beings can suffer and do suffer worse than animals. The pain we feel is more intense, and the psychological pain we endure is immeasurable.

Now there are some animals in the world that show some human like qualities. Simple language, problem solving, emotions, etc. But they are not human beings and they don't see the world as we do, nor do they view death as we do. Human beings are terrified of dying more than any animal. Every animal knows what death is instictively. It doesn't spend it's time worrying about it.

There are some animals that because of their similarities to man should not be consumed for food. There are also some animals which we do not eat because they provide us with emotional comfort (pets).

But I'm sorry to break this to you but cows and chickens are two of the dumbest animals on this planet. They are barely aware of the world around them and have no idea whats going on right up to their death. Yes they feel pain and no they should not be mistreated, but the actual act of slaughtering them is no where near what a human being would go through in their spot.

There for it's apples and oranges. You simply cannot compare an animal to a human being. Any more than you could hold an animal responsible the way you would a human being.

If a lion kills and antelope are you going to put it on trial for murder? Do you think dogs should be jailed on indecency charges for pooping in public?

You seem like you kinda like to think animals and humans deserve the same rights but with a right comes responsibility and animals can't be held responsible and therefor have no rights. That's what it fundamentally comes down to.

I'm all for compassionate treatment of animals, especially animals to be slaughtered. No animal should be mis treated by men. We should be giving thanks to them for nourishing us.

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Veganism is an unhealthy and unnatural way to eat.
---
I don't want to be rude, but I suggest you look at the facts. A properly-planned vegan diet provides every single nutrient you will ever need, in adequate quantities.

People do get sick and sometimes die eating vegan diets.

They don't die from lack of animal products! And what about all the unhealthy meat eaters out there?

Sentience is the awareness of your existence. You could describe it as the ability to have a good day or a bad day.

If you believe it is acceptable for you to deny an animal the possibility of continuing to enjoy its life, that is your opinion. But please admit that it is because of your tastebuds and not for your health.

"CSI" helped my DIY!!!

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

Veganism is un-natural for human beings. I'd also like to point out that we are tremendous aholes to even be discussing things like this when so many people in the world are so hungry they would gladly eat whatever they could to survive.

As for diets I would say an all meat diet would be as unhealthy as an all veggie diet. There is a reason we get tired of eating the same things over and over, we have a biological impulse to find variety because that is a healthier way of eating.

For many Americans, they eat what they can afford. Using the fast food model that is presented in this movie I'd like to point out a few things I dislike about the industry. Why is it you can get a double cheese burger at Mc Donalds for 99cents but a salad is like $5?

And if you've ever been really poor in your life before, some of the staple foods are government cheese, soups and stews to make your supplies last longer, and a butt load of fish sticks and soy filler meat. 99 cents for generic lips and snouts hot dogs for instance.

One of the most perfect foods on the planet earth is Rice. It's one of the few foods that you could live on almost exclusively and not suffer malnutrition. Yet you hardly see it on most plates. Because people like their breads and corn products instead.

I mean when it comes to discussion of diet and health, we could go on and on about what's wrong without even getting into animal rights.

Your definition of sentience is pretty much in line with my thinking. I don't believe chickens and cows and pigs are self aware. Their minds, and their consciousness is very different from ours because they fit into the natural world in a different place. One of the tests of sentience is recognizing your reflection in a mirror. There are some animals out there that when looking in a mirror will realize they are looking at themselves. Most either ignore it, or think it's another animal.

I would kill an animal to satisfy my taste buds as you put it because it's the natural order of the world, and their entire purpose of being born, of all the selective breeding that went into their development as a domesticated species is to provide me with meat to consume.

As I've said several times and you have yet to comment on the fact, I also believe animals that are raised for slaughter should be treated with respect and kindness. They deserve our love for their sacrifice and we should provide them with good lives and when the time comes their deaths should be as stress free and painless as possible.

I don't agree with the way they are treated and raised and I think it reflects badly on human empathy, but I'm not so blind that I believe animals are human beings or should be put before people. People come first and always will.

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Veganism is un-natural for human beings.
---
Which explains why so many of us are thriving.

People come first

Which would explain why you would eat your (hypothetical) pet dog/rescue dog before you ate me, if you were marooned on a lifeboat with no food. But you're not on that lifeboat. You have choices.

Have you ever carved a naked woman out of MDF before?

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

Thriving?

Maybe because being a prius driving vegan is all the rage these days. Why actually care about animals and try to help them, or people for that matter, when you can go down to your local organic food store, or a Toyota dealership and buy psychological validation. It's not that they don't care at all, but that they want to be seen as caring. How many PETA supporting celbs drive around with leather seats and carry their personal items in $10,000 leather handbags from Italy?

Rose you probably mean well but you are so frustratingly blind to the world I'm 50/50 on trying to show you, or to slap you for being so dense.

If I were in that hypothetical lifeboat I would be far more concerned with water. But since I do have choices I prefer a natural diet of meat and veg.

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Yes, thriving, as in being healthy, having healthy vegan children, taking part in sports, that sort of stuff.

I don't drive, I don't wear or use leather and most of my clothes are second hand. So why the heck are you comparing me to celebrities? Maybe I should be flattered!

As I already said on another thread, I give to charities and buy quite a lot of fair trade stuff, but you keep on pretending that I don't care about the Third World. I don't think it suits you to know anything about the real me. It would suit you better if I were just a stereotype that you invented, but tough. I'm me.

Have you ever carved a naked woman out of MDF before?

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

Healthy Thriving children?

Where are these uber mensch getting their daily supply of Vitamin D to prevent rickets?

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Sunlight, dear. Also, it has to be added to margarine by law but not all firms add the non-vegan form.

http://www.vegansociety.com/people/lifestyle/families/parenting/vegan_ children/

Have you ever carved a naked woman out of MDF before?

[–] hardtruth 16 years ago

Sunlight? ORLY?

That's funny because back in the day, when that was about the only way for an average person to get it, people still got rickets and were malnourished, even in bright sunshine. That was back in the good old days when people didn't use sun block, and got skin cancer and other goodies.

You could send little billy outside for a few hours without sunblock and let him get chapped and increase his risk of cancer, or you can apply sunblock and loose 75% of the already insufficient production of vitamin d in the skin.

Like I said before, you are a clueless sod and utterly oblivious to the world outside of your carefully crafted delusions. There is no argument in this world that you are going to win trying to say that vegan diets are natural OR healthy, much less practical for the majority of the worlds population.

You will never admit it to yourself but you continue to benefit from meat and animal products and you need them to be healthy and to survive in this world.

I don't expect you to ever see that, you're too far gone.

Kodack

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Like I said before, you are a clueless sod and utterly oblivious to the world outside of your carefully crafted delusions.
---
Wow, kodack. You really are a bit of a b1tch, aren't you?

And I thought you said that you knew all about vegetarians and vegans as you used to be veggie. Clearly, you have not got a clue about nutrition. Not a frigging clue. I know people who have been vegan all their lives, at least one of them is now a parent himself. They have healthy bones.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/osteomalaciarickets.htm

As you will see from the link, most people in the UK get most of their vitamin D from sunlight. Although as I said Vitamin D2 is vegan and is added to vegan margarine. Vitamin D3 is not vegan and is added to other margarines. All margarine in the UK has Vitamin D added by law.

You really should check your facts.

Have you ever carved a naked woman out of MDF before?

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2005/04/18/he lf2.xml

We can't fully explain pie.

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

Furthermore, most of the people with whom I deal on a daily basis are meat eaters, so I am hardly living in a bubble.

The debates on this board have amply demonstrated that we do not need animal products to eat, or to fertilise crops, or to wear.

I am, however, starting to regret calling you a b1tch. Not because I feel it was rude of me to do so. It was a fair assessment of you based on your behaviour. But perhaps it would be fairer to have compared you to someone having a temper tantrum. I didn't go along with your "Oh, Rose, I used to think like you, but now I am enlightened" routine, so you got annoyed and started with the name calling.

We can't fully explain pie.

[–] Lothar-Zogg 15 years ago

"Why actually care about animals and try to help them, or people for that matter, when you can go down to your local organic food store, or a Toyota dealership and buy psychological validation. It's not that they don't care at all, but that they want to be seen as caring. How many PETA supporting celbs drive around with leather seats and carry their personal items in $10,000 leather handbags from Italy?"

Reminds me of the days I worked in a "vegetarian" food co-op, being one of the few meat eating employees, I kept my personal food choices to myself, but amused myself sometimes by asking someone I knew to profess to being vegetarian/vegan exactly why they were so. After listening to the invariably cliched responses, I'd point out the leather jacket they were wearing, along with the leather belt/wallet/purse/shoes or the "organic"eggs/cheese/milk found in their shopping basket. After stumbling for some kind of rational explanation for a minute or two, they would walk away red-faced/humiliated/puzzled. Made my day.

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

Well, I'm not wearing leather. But on a number of occasions people have tried that one on me when I wasn't! That made my day.

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] hardtruth 13 years ago

Im just fine thanks. Rose has been on ignore for years.

Kodack

[–] mahlee 16 years ago

I thought the main point was about human beings having choices. So people can choose to eat what they like, what they want and what they can afford. Period.

There are many unjust things in this world that can be improved for the better. Work conditions, slaugherhouses, meat and fast food industry practices are just a tiny portion. WHat is the point in trying to convince people to switch to vegan diets? How many people can you influence if any? Do you really expect to change the majority of the world population, so that one day, in the most unlikely of your dreams, that all human beings will stop eating meat and all 'animals' can live in peace?..
The longest living national populations in the world are certainly not vegetarians.

Anyway I don't mean to elaborate on this argument. I just wanted to read other people's opinions on this movie and found it ridiculous that some people were misusing this place to make judments and criticisms on people who can and love and enjoy eating meat. I love veggies too. And I love my meat.
Leave the decision to me and let movie watchers enjoy reading about regular movie opinions here.

[–] Radiant_Rose 16 years ago

The longest living national populations in the world are certainly not vegetarians.

There is nothing about meat that promotes longevity.

I'm shooting at a fifth grade level!

[–] batistuta47 15 years ago

That entirely depends on the definition of longevity. a BALANCED MEAT MEAL WILL GIVE EVERYTHING YOU NEED WITH GREATER ENERGY AT LESS COST. iT CERTAINLY COMES WITH NEGAVTIES AS WELL, BUT NON OFTHE HAVE A CHOKEHOLD ON THE PERFECT DIET.

DAMN CAPS, NOT FIXXIN EM/

[–] batistuta47 15 years ago

Did I do that?

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

What? What? Firstly, I've never been a member of PETA, ever, but what is going on? Ranchers ask animal rights campaigners to help feed cattle that are destined for slaughter? Meat eaters make up the majority of the population of the US, as I am sure batistuta will point out, so why not request their help?

Peacocks! Responsibilities!!

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

Thank you for that. I agree that it is counter-productive to throw paint at people, that just makes it easy for them to claim they are being persecuted and takes the focus off the animals.

Peacocks! Responsibilities!!

[–] psdhart 15 years ago

the OP and the moilovesit pretty much sum up my opinion.

[–] sodiumlaurylsulfate 15 years ago

Word!

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

Veganism unhealthy????
before i went vegan i had liver and kidney damage - my last blood test came back all normal PLUS my iron levels were better than ever - my doctor said "whatever you've been doing, keep going".
when i told her it was veganism she nearly choked on her tea.
lol

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

Hi, cattyfins!

The OP of this particular thread is a very hostile person. Most of the meat eaters on the board start off quite hostile, then mellow a bit. Kodack, on the other hand, started hostile, then mellowed, then turned rather hostile when I said as politely as I could that I disagreed with his logic for stopping being vegetarian. Then he stopped posting here.

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

the thing is they will never convince me to eat meat and i probably won't convince them if they start off with such closed minds so i guess there is no real point eh.
still, always glad to meet a fellow vegan who knows the joy of karma-free eating.
:-)

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] marauder256 15 years ago

the thing is they will never convince me to eat meat

For some reason, I'm thinking of Saw when you said that. I'm thinking either force-fed steak or Chinese used cooking oil/animal blood torture.

and i probably won't convince them if they start off with such closed minds so i guess there is no real point eh.

1. "Probably" means that you still think you can convert the evil carnivores of death to the side of puppies and rainbows and sparkly things. Of course, this is if you don't care about free will and take orgasmic joy in being right every single time you interact with somebody.

2. Just take a moment, read that second bolded part again, and then flip the script. If you did it right, you will see why I am trying so hard not to use the dreaded h-word.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimalWrongsGroup
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AGodAmI

Oh yeah, these links? They're the reason I post here sometimes. If I don't see these traits in a poster, I don't post. There are a lot of vegetarians out there, and most of them choose not to use what they eat as their primary personality trait. The ones that do get the piss taken out of them constantly. Don't be one of those people.

still, always glad to meet a fellow vXe'r who knows the joy of karma-free eating. :-)

Too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GBPQ6fiLr0

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

That first link is interesting. I have often thought that TV drama tends to class People-Who-Believe-In-Something as the villains of the week. Although sometimes it isn't them.

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.
yes i do wish that i could convince evryone to go vegan, i say probably because even though i live in hope i am aware that it won't happen.

i strongly believe in free will but not when it comes with the pain and suffering of others.
i dont have to always be right but i see no point in an argument that is at a stalemate.
i think alot of the posters who are pro-meat DO start with closed minds and choose not to see how animals suffer just because meat-eaters like the taste of their flesh.

as for your links, i completely disagree with some of what that link says about PETA - claiming that they would rather see one hundred million africans die of aids then one animal die to research a cure is simplified and wrong-headed, not to mention, do you really think they're only gunna kill one animal? how many do you think have died so far?? what about the stuff about how we must milk cows or they will die? is terribly misinformed and just promotes the propaganda and lies of the dairy industry, what do you think happens to the calves? do you really think a cow just makes milk forever without the pregnancies to cause the milk production? just stupid.

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] marauder256 15 years ago

I thought I wouldn't have to do this again, but here goes.

not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.

I think that's because I went "no side" on this one. Besides, everything's been said by kodack, Lothar-Zogg, and mahlee in this topic. Not to mention many, many others from both sides. Even General Rose is making some sense. Everything else from here on in is basically this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGeI_ZyFgdw

Not going to go line for line with that post, but here's what I saw:

*a contradiction
*an unwillingness to listen to other people's points objectively. You still want to be right if you can't find value in stalemates.
*a prejudicial statement formulated from anecdotal evidence on this board (and not from real-life experiences like other anecdotes from other posters)
*an independent clause that can be misconstrued to mean that some people on IMDB are cannibals
*you probably ignored most of the content from the first trope and didn't even read the next two in order to rant about something you didn't agree with and back it up with pathos, only your finger slipped and the p became a b.

Face it; everything's been said. Overcoming the odds of death by *GASP* changing your diet isn't going to affect much, no matter how much you want your life to matter to somebody else. That's what a late-night infomercial's for.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to stave off an attack from the 454th Armored Feline Special Forces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GBPQ6fiLr0

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

'Face it; everything's been said. Overcoming the odds of death by *GASP* changing your diet isn't going to affect much.'

exactly my point - an argument that is going nowhere.
i never said that people on IMDB are cannibals or implied it - how ridiculous.

your patronising tone is unwarranted and i noticed you didn't respond to any of the points i brought up.

i have listened to other people's statements and expect the same in return.

would you like me to point you to some other sites to back up my opinion as you have done to back up yours??

by the way, pathos and bathos? your attempts at clever insults just make you appear mean-spirited. this is important to me, indeed it is important to many, and your 'witty' barbs do nothing to diminish that, they just diminish you.

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

marauder has promoted me to being a General now?

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

Rose - LOL
can i join your army?
tee hee

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

It's not really an army, but welcome.

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] marauder256 15 years ago

Let me get this straight. You were pissed off by this:

Also, one of the founders of PETA takes insulin for her Type I diabetes; of course massive amounts of research using hundreds of thousands of animal subjects was necessary to make this possible. This from a group that would rather see 100 million Africans die slowly in agony of HIV rather than one animal die during research for a cure.

A true statement (the first sentence) followed by an exaggerated conclusion based on the track record of said group. You follow with:

as for your links, i completely disagree with some of what that link says about PETA - claiming that they would rather see one hundred million africans die of aids then one animal die to research a cure is simplified and wrong-headed, not to mention, do you really think they're only gunna kill one animal? how many do you think have died so far?? what about the stuff about how we must milk cows or they will die? is terribly misinformed and just promotes the propaganda and lies of the dairy industry, what do you think happens to the calves? do you really think a cow just makes milk forever without the pregnancies to cause the milk production? just stupid.

1) That wasn't the point of the links. The point was that something that started off with good intentions (Animal Wrongs Group) can get out of hand if the person gets blinded by their own ideals and erases the line they will cross to make them a reality (Knight Templar). Let this run rampant and, of course, A God Am I results, in which the offender (and their ego) have to be deflated before things go out of control and everybody suffers because one person had to go to great lengths just to feel good about themselves and justify their existence. The name of the website? TV Tropes, not killfluffy.com. Rose got it and answered accordingly. You still didn't read them, did you?

2) Rhetorical question. However, there is a large group of people who could step in for said animals and be subject to scientific experimentation. Then again, the genetic makeup is too complicated. What may work for some may not work for others. Plus it's supposed to be immoral. Is it really immoral if there are so many "volunteers"?

3)The only way I can answer this is, "Buy a cow and make a website chronicling your adventures." Other than that, yes, the dairy and cattle industry is messed up. That's what the others before me said. Instead of *****ing about it and thinking that that's going to solve the problem, I'm wondering why those farms don't sell some livestock when things get too big to function properly. I'm guessing that there aren't enough buyers, but there must be some small farms whose land isn't ready to grow crops yet.

All right, let's see what you've got now.

exactly my point - an argument that is going nowhere.

Then why post? Oh right, your need to be right and your dismissal of anything that doesn't fit your viewpoint.

i never said that people on IMDB are cannibals or implied it - how ridiculous.

Then proofread your posts so stuff like that doesn't happen.

"I think a lot of the posters who are pro-meat DO start with closed minds. They choose not to see how animals suffer because they like the taste of meat."

See how simple that was? Just be glad I didn't format your post to MLA and graded it to oblivion.

your patronising tone is unwarranted and i noticed you didn't respond to any of the points i brought up.

Well, I did now, even though your "points" could be found in any pamphlet or Geocities site that just wants to shock people.

i have listened to other people's statements and expect the same in return.

1) Don't you mean read?
2) Somehow, I don't believe this. I think it's more like scanning for something you don't like and harping on that while dismissing their entire post as typed/written/spoken by a subhuman piece of trash. Example: The first post on this topic, where you skipped everything and focused on kodack's statement on veganism because you thought he was insulting you.

would you like me to point you to some other sites to back up my opinion as you have done to back up yours??

You mean the same stuff that's been here before you even thought to come here? I've read it and while some of it has made me think about your plight, you're going to be disappointed when somebody doesn't bow to your superiority or give you a cookie for finally demonstrating an objective POV. But hey, knock yourself out. But that wasn't the point:

Oh yeah, these links? They're the reason I post here sometimes. If I don't see these traits in a poster, I don't post. There are a lot of vegetarians out there, and most of them choose not to use what they eat as their primary personality trait. The ones that do get the piss taken out of them constantly. Don't be one of those people.

You may have skipped that, knowing your history of an anti-reading comprehension bias. You're falling into the trap. You know the cure.

by the way, pathos and bathos?

Of course. It was either that or just come out and say that your points are just pathetic appeals, which you would have interpreted as an insult. As for bathos, here's one of those links you probably won't read anyway:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narm

It's ruined many a dramatic moment.

your attempts at clever insults just make you appear mean-spirited.

This is the Internet. More specifically, this is a message board. What, did you think there were 6 billion+ of you running around? Did you think that other humans are stupid and needed your guidance and wisdom just to breathe correctly? If I do appear to be mean spirited, it may be because I've had a few experiences with people who need to advertise their diet because of their lack of personality or *GASP* empathy, not to mention other people who share the same personality traits. Guess what? Not all vegetarians and vegans are like that. Some of them are pretty cool people who have more going on in their lives than what they eat. Strive to be more like them.

this is important to me, indeed it is important to many, and your 'witty' barbs do nothing to diminish that, they just diminish you.

Of course it's important to you; it saved the most important thing to you. The problem is that it's been taken to a level close to being born again and selling your soul to the devil instead of being on the level of beating cancer.

So this is all about validation? I see how you cling to others who are just like you and shun others who have the audacity to sport a different viewpoint. Insecurity perhaps? Just give it time; you'll get comfortable in your own skin. That nagging feeling to build that mesmerizing ray or blow up that farm or kill that scientist will subside when you find other interests, like farming or basket weaving or if you want to keep your personality traits, bashing those different from you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GBPQ6fiLr0

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

However, there is a large group of people who could step in for said animals and be subject to scientific experimentation. Then again, the genetic makeup is too complicated. What may work for some may not work for others.

I think I already made the point that, for example, rats and mice are quite dissimilar, and humans are even less like rats than mice are.

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] batistuta47 15 years ago

however, rats and mice are far more similar to humans than say....ants or rocks. We have to start somewhere.

[–] Radiant_Rose 15 years ago

And now we have the ability to start with human tissue samples, epidemiology and scans of human volunteers.

Oh, no! Bart has stolen the elderly!

[–] batistuta47 15 years ago

Lol, if you think there are a lot of political and ethical issues with using animals, take a look at the rancor surrounding human trials of any sort. Not to mention that they are still more expensive and difficult.
Animals are quicker, easier, cheaper and regardless of your personal opinion, pose fewer ethical challenges to more of the public.
Some things also require in vivo testing.

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

goodness me Marauder you seem like a very angry person, that diatribe just comes across as a huge angry rant.

that whole diabetes thing does piss me off, if she was given a choice between insulin tested on animals and insulin not tested on animals and she chose the vivisection based insulin then i agree she'd be a hipocrite, in the absence of choice i think it's fair that she takes her insulin and lives.

i actually am a vegan who has so much more going on then what i eat, my friends are a mix of veggie, vegan and meat-eaters and thats fine. i am not some born-again vegan who shoves it down everyone's throat - you are making some big assumptions there that simply aren't true. thats ok, you don't know me and so it really doesn't matter that you choose to put me in that box - whatever.

i dont need to be right, i came on here to add my opinion (well, more like an observation) to the mix (which was a very small and cheerful post about how veganism improved my liver and kidney function - nothing too offensive or challenging or revealing of who i am; nothing about animal welfare issues etc.) and i have been judged and harassed by you since then, methinks it may be you who needs others to 'bow down to their superiority', you who is 'bashing those different to you'.

All i did was share my experience as a vegan, in light of the comments previously made that veganism is unhealthy or un-natural, i added my story to give some balance to that comment. You interpretted this as me declaring my all-encompassing vegan war cry, plotting world domination from my secret lair made up of my own ego. A huge stretch i must say but if that's how you feel comforatble you go ahead and view me that way. I however refuse to respond in kind and am not interested in discussing this with someone who is only keen on furthering the readership of his favourite tropes and theories.

enjoy feeling superior; i am happy with who i am, my life, my friends and family. No insult you throw my way will make me who you want me to be.

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] hardtruth 13 years ago

I wanted to chime in, 2 year later with my 2 cents.

You want to eat vegan food.
It makes you feel healthier and better than eating meat.

I say more power to you, eat what you want to eat, it's a free country and I am thankful we have such abundant food resources that we can pick and choose what we eat.

The reason I bash on people like Rose is because they aren't content with personal choices and they try to force their ideals on an unwilling public.

You eating a vegan diet is not a moral reflection on me eating meat.

Rose telling us that eating meat is murder and unhealthy and un-natural is though, so that's where I have a problem with it.

Kodack

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

btw Marauder as i said i never implied they were cannibals - read it again.
I am talking about ANIMAL meat which i think is fairly obvious.

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] marauder256 15 years ago

All right, that's it. No links, no smileys, no subtlety, no humor. I'm just going to lay it out for you:

Get over yourself. No one is trying to convert you into anything. I was just trying to point out that you were turning into one of those psycho vegans who just have to advertise their diet and how they're so great because of it. If I had just spit it out and said, "Lighten up", this situation would not have happened. You may think you're not that person, but your posts say otherwise at least starting in the middle of 2008. Something tells me you just patrol this site looking for people who badmouth veganism so you can show them the error of their ways and probably get another convert on the side.

You wanted to post your story of how you fought kidney and liver disease by changing your diet, yet couldn't resist making a few snide jabs for some reason at those who eat meat. Don't try to be shocked by somebody responding to that.

At least you have some sense of absurd humor (guess I lied about there not being any humor in this post):

You interpretted this as me declaring my all-encompassing vegan war cry, plotting world domination from my secret lair made up of my own ego.

1) Why did I not know of this war cry? Is it like Xena's war cry?
2) How do you make a lair out of ego?

I also love the part of me as the mad psychologist who vows revenge against those fools at the Academy for rejecting my ideas. See, you can loosen up and be funny.

\_O__/

[–] cattyfinns 15 years ago

well if i gave that impression it was wrong - i am REALLY not that type of vegan and have never been.
i am actually quite a relaxed person with a brighter side of life attitude and am known as quite the jester amongst my friends.

i think the Vegan war cry might be slightly higher pitched, like the ones that only dogs can hear - lol.
and it is hard work to build a lair out of ego, first you must find a place big enough to house it (and all those volcanos are taken up by Bond villains - darn it), then build your ego up through a series of comments designed to systematically take down the evil warlords that imprison animals in factory farms whilst simutaneously promoting your own agenda to brainwash the world.
Mwah ha ha.

seriously though, i really just want to let people know that veganism is not unhealthy, it is a valid choice that i have made but it is of course, everyone else's own desicion how they live their lives.
i guess ultimately i just wish that people were at least more aware of the choices they are making everyday. i am not strict but if i break my diet and have a piece of cheese i am aware of what that cheese cost someone else. when i see handbags made of leather or a coat made of fur i am aware of what it cost an animal to put it there.
I dont want that to sound egotistical, it is not intended that way because i am in NO WAY perfect and neither are my choices perfect for everyone else, but i wish awareness was higher - for me too.
does that make sense and not sound offensive?

I'm not really like that... except when I am.

[–] hardtruth 13 years ago

Ok talking about 'karma' with respect to what you're eating actually just pissed me off.

You have fallen victim to Vegan trap #4 "Smug holier than thou attitude".

I'd just like to point out that unless you grew it yourself, or got it from a co-op, immigrant people were likely exploited to grow and harvest your food, the crops were fertilized by meat industry by-products resulting from the slaughter of animals, and lastly there is no such thing as karma.

Bad people don't always care that they are bad, they have no conscience, and often they get away with it and do well in life.

FYI if you've ever donated to PETA your money was spent to kill animals and fund eco terrorism. FACT.

Kodack

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] Nova_UB313 15 years ago

4. The way these animals are raised and slaughtered is an atrocity. It is in our nature to eat meat and kill. It is not in an animals nature to grow, live, and die, on an assembly line or in a cage.

5. Mistreating animals (even animals you are about to kill) is wrong. The animals that feed us deserve our respect and our love. They give of themselves so we can live. How could you kick, torture, or mistreat such a gift? This includes the rough handling, wing and beak clipping, squeezing baby chicks poo out during sexing and tossing the babies around like a product.

6. Using animals to feed other animals is also wrong. Cow blood should not be used as a milk substitute. Feed derived from animal parts should not be used to feed other animals, especially the same species. This isn't just for moral reasons, many diseases like pryons, mad cow, etc are most infectious when animals consume the flesh of other animals in the same species. A slaughter animals diet should promote a healthy animal by feeding an appropriate amount of food (no FN force feeding ducks for fois groix) of an appropriate kind, grains and grasses for grazers, etc.

7. Animals should be slaughtered as painlessly as possible by professionals trained specifically to end their suffering in the least violent and painful manner possible. Violations should result in severe punishment for intentional distress and harsh punishment for accidental transgressions.

This is all correct. Thank you very much for the clear description.

None of us should be split into two hostile camps--meat eaters vs vegans. This is not correct, and only furthers miscommunication and ignorance. However, meat eaters need to be informed as to 'how' their factory farmed meat is being produced, and the blatant abuses and heinous crimes that are taking place to increase profit margins.

In the 'extras' section of the 'Fast Food Nation' DVD, there were some vignettes entitled 'The Meatrix,' which basically summed up the issues nicely. The message wasn't that meat eating is wrong, but that factory farming is cruel, unjust and profit driven. The final message was to support local or small family farms.

More science, less fiction.

[–] 15 years ago

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