MovieChat Forums > The War at Home (2005) Discussion > Open Debate

Open Debate

posted 17 years ago by unheardguru
19 replies | jump to latest

First of all, this is a public forum for discussion relating to "The War at Home." It is not a private site restricted only to fans of the show who come together to agree with each other about how brilliant it is. If you want to eliminate opposing viewpoints from public view, try Communist China.

Secondly, and I can't speak for every other poster who dislikes the show, for me, there is something about this program that breeds passionate contempt. I watch a lot of TV, and there are shows I dislike, but I am ambivalent towards them. I never went on the "Stacked" message boards to complain about it, I just, as many have recommended, didn't watch it. The War at Home is different. I can't stand it, I complain about it, I post complaints about it, and I watch every episode I can. While I can explain in detail why I don't like the show, I can't explain why I keep coming back to it, or why I feel the need to vocalize my opinions so much more.

I accept the fact that some people find this show funny, even hysterical. I don't say that they are wrong. I realize it is their opinion, just as my feelings to the contrary are my own.

But no one has been able to answer me one question on this board: Why do you like it?

And I am not looking for people to tell me "I like it cause it is funny" or "Cause it is good." Is there any fan out there who can give me an honest appraisal of why they love the show, and then stand by their opinions if someone disagrees with thoughtful, articulate points?

It is easy to feel that you are superior to people who's arguments consist of "This show sucks, Michael Rapaport is lame," but can any of you fans out there justify this show with someone who can actually respond intelligently?

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

Is "thinking" that big of a chore? What is it about Sit-Coms that makes them OK to be mediocre? Books have been written and critics have discussed why sitcoms like All in the Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Seinfeld, Mash, I Love Lucy and others have been benchmarks for the genre. Yet we say the overwhelming ordinariness of the War at Home is OK because it is just a sit-com?

I am not saying that anyone HAS to do anything, but I was hoping there would be someone out there who can actually defend their opinions with a rational thought. If you like the show because it is funny, that is fine. But that isn't a point that can be debated. "Funny" is subjective. I was hoping someone would have an opinion on the characters, the plots, the dialogue or anything else that goes a bit beyond their basest immediate reactions.

Maybe you don't think about this stuff. OK. But just because you don't think doesn't mean no one else does.

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

Stuffy? Overbearing? Pompous? Absoultely not. Pretentious and Miserable? I'd say that is a pretty fair assessment.

And I do enjoy some mindless entertainment, and I appreciate it for the very fact that I can turn my brain off when I watch. One of my all time favorite shows is Married with Children, which certainly doesn't aim at the intellectual crowd. But it also doesn't pretend to.

Yes, I am a born critic who can't help but ask why he does or doesn't like something. Are you saying that is bad?

And the shows you mentioned are not called classics because TV critics liked them, or even because when they were on, they were some of the most popular shows on TV. It is becaused they challenged viewers in new ways. Whether you like sit-coms about single, career minded women like MTM, or prefer the Donna Reed type housewife, that is all subject to the individual. Some people like fries, and some want the baked potato. It is called individual taste. But no one can deny that when those shows came out, no one had ever seen anything like them, nor had they been done so well. If the humor is not your cup of tea, that is OK, but the point is that with those shows, there WAS more to discuss.

And you don't have to read War and Peace to get your brain working. Try an episode of The Office. See a show that can make you laugh AND make you feel. Or try reruns of All in the Family on TVLand for a show that makes you laugh AND think.

Yes, most sit-coms are derivitive mindless dreck, but that isn't all they CAN be, and I will never understand the attitude that says that that is OK. Tune in to NBC tonight and watch some sit-coms that don't rely on the cliches of the uber-geek kid, the dumb dad or the hot daughter. If TV CAN be better, why can't we DEMAND it be better?

PS, I hate people who try to correct other people's spelling in posts to try to back up their own arguments, so that is not what I am doing, but if you intentionally mis-spelled "intellect," then that is actually pretty funny.

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

Thanks! You too.

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] drunkdaddyo69 17 years ago

i like it because you dont! mind your own business.why do people like spongebob?
who cares.i like what i like regardless of what you or anyone thinks.

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

Am I demanding people write a treatise on this? Did I insist everyone answer? If you don't want to reply,then don't. You like it cause you like it? Fine. If someone out there has a deeper response, I'm curious to hear it. Is that really a crime?

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] Maserati7777 17 years ago

I like the show because it's edgy comedy. And the jokes are actually funny.

Now if your the type who enjoys boring comedy from Arrested Development or slapstick comedy from The Office I could see you not liking this.

But with this show they use jokes that are offensive and thats what makes the show funny.

It's sort of like a modern day "All in the Family" You hate them yet you love them.

They don't rely on stuipid jokes like Family Guy, it's intelligent offensive humor. Plus they make fun of so many celebrities it's hilarious. And they arn't afraid to use the f word and beep it out.

One of the funniest things I think I've ever seen was in a preevious episode where the docter was discussing Mike's problem.

Here's the scene
"Dr. Leiber: (about Mike) This is a very difficult thing for a therapist to tell a parent about their child...
Vicky: Oh, God!
Dave: What, he's sick? He's really sick?
Dr. Leiber: Actually, the clinical term is, "Big ****ing Liar."

I can tell you I've never heard an audiance laugh longer than I did here. I mean maybe once before but the laughing from this was almost as intense as the scene itself.

Do I CAUSE YOUR DEATH? Just like you caused Erin's?
Maserati777

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

First of all, thank you for proving that you don't have to enjoy a sitcom as nothing but mindless entertainment. You seem to know what you are talking about (Although whether AD is "boring" and The Office is "slapstick" is also debateable).

I watched that episode, and, believe it or not, that line was the first time I had laughed out loud at anything on the show. (And I mean that as a compliment to the exchange)

One thing that you mentioned made me ask myself something, and I don't mean this as an insult, but purely a talking point: Is it brave to use the f-bomb, knowing full well that it will be bleeped, or even with the intention of bleeping it?

Your comparison to All In The Family is one I have heard before, and I just can't agree with the comparison. The character of Archie Bunker was a mysoginistic racist bigot with a dead end blue collar job, no redeeming social skills and an incorruptible hatred of just about everything. And people loved him. Everyone knew that he was philisophically wrong on just about everything, but his logic and evidence was always indisputable, although ignorant ("If God wanted us to marry the blacks, he wouldn't have stuck them on the other side of the ocean."). But the biggest thing about Archie Bunker was that he never apologized for his opinions or actions.

On the other hand, Dave Gold is an upper-middle class insurance salesman with some outdat6ed ideas that he is CONSTANTLY apologizing for. ("I know it's wrong to say, but I just don't want my daughter dating a black guy.") The writers are scared to let him be offensive, so they make him harmless instead.

Also, you mentioned something about them making fun of celebrities. I don't remember any specific celebrity jokes, but I've always thought that pop-culture jokes were lazy writing. Are we really going to be laughing at Paris Hilton is a Slut jokes in five years? Will you watch reruns of TWAH with your kids in 20 years and they will laugh at a Jessica Simpson is dumb joke? The goal of comedy should not be just to get a laugh today, but to get a laugh forever. Maybe I'm asking too much, but the greatest bits in comedy history would still be funny if they were first said today.

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] Maserati7777 17 years ago

I was thinking and maybe Roseanne is a better comparison.

I mean this show isn't as funny, but the comedy style is similar. And I'm glad this story isn't as racist as All in the Family because I feel you can't get away with that type of show today.

All in the Family was the kind of show based on love, Archie's bigotry wasn't the main topic of the show. The show was based off a normal, middle-class family. For the most part anyway.

It had it's characteristics. Archie the bigot, Edith the ditz, Gloria the sweet and Micheal the meathead.

What I mean is the show was common, the dialogue was edgy.

On this show the show is edgy as with the dialogue. But in this case they use many different subjects. In fact it's almost about the evolution of the kids teaching the parents.

Shows have changed over the years

Leave it to Beaver where kids listened to their parents, they did their homework when they were told and called their dads, sir.

Then in the late 60's and The Brady Bunch kids still listened to their parents but they got in more serious trouble but not full out serious.
Another note is belly buttons were taboo, both Jeannie and Mary-Ann had to hide their belly buttons from the camera. This includes the early 70's too.

Then the 80's hit with Growing Pains in which you have parents who seem as if they were the rebels when they were younger. You have Mike who lies and cheats every episode. I mean you can see by this time being dumb was a trend on tv.

Then you have Roseanne in the 90's

You have Roseanne herself the cool, independent mom who understands her kids problems because she went through them herself, not to mention her sister Jackie who's sort've like her right wing man. Dan is the overprotective beer belly father who still cared for his family. Becky was the slutty imaged older blonde sister and Darlene was her complete opposite, DJ was the get in trouble younger brother. Mark was the ditz and David was the artsy nerd type.

The show was complete. As with The War at Home.

I sort of feel it's the end of the cycle. But it's still smart in terms of jokes. The show has good writers who have come up with some funny comedy. And I like how the shows cuts to clips of the cast revealing their true feelings infront of a blank background.

I guess I like it because it's edgy, and funny. I don't even like The Office or AD or Family Guy, heck whats the appeal to Seinfeld?. I wish we had funny comedies again.

I Love Lucy
The Jeffersons
Three's Company
Roseanne

Comedies in which you inspect to laugh through out an episode not just being surprised by it.

I feel that way with The War at home, I expect to laugh and I do.

It may not be a classic like these but it's the closest I can find.

Do I CAUSE YOUR DEATH? Just like you caused Erin's?
Maserati777

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

One of the differences I see between this and Roseanne, however, is that there was nothing glamorous about roseanne. They dressed drably, they had crappy jobs (for the most part) and they were all pretty unattractive. Even the slutty daughter was pretty homely. They were an upper lower class family with all the problems and issues of an upper lower class family, but they happened to be funny.

The War at Home is about upwardly mobile,middle class people with no real problems. They have a big, impeccably tidy, well lit house with ample closet space, four bedrooms, six TVs, two cars, and whatever gadgets their kids might want. I saw an episode a while back where the mom buys a 130 dollar bottle of wine, and another episode where the dad, who could never spend 10,000 on a watch, is excited to hear that he can get the watch for only 1,000!

And I do feel that you are over-simplifying the characters on Roseanne and All in the Family. Michael was just the meathead? Do you really feel that was the only aspect of his character? Or Gloria was just "sweet"?

On the other hand, I feel like you can get everything you need to know about the characters on TWAH in five words or less. "Hot, self obsessed daughter." "Super Nerd son" "Con artist son" "Hot, Sarcastic wife" "Bigoted, overbearing dad." Is there anything you can really add to those descriptions to reveal more about their characters? If you were an actor trying to flesh out one of their roles, would you need more than a post-it to jot down notes?

I feel this show has a much closer relation to a show like Home Improvement than Roseanne, both in the type of Family it portrays and the style of the jokes. You can feel every set up for a punchline coming, and the plot of every episode follows pretty much the same tired formula.

I do agree that the family sit-com has evolved from its earlier incarnations, but I don't think TWAH is a symbol of where that cycle has come. You have already said that you aren't a fan of it, but Arrested Development is a far more innovative show, portraying a highly disfunctional family with a rich history, intricate relationships and, in the end, love for one another. It was a show unlike any other that had ever been on TV, whereas TWAH, I think, feels like bits and pieces of a lot of shows shoved together.

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] Maserati7777 17 years ago

Home Improvement was so ABC Family.

But though it is like a lot of older shows. Lokk at where thoese shows are now. Either cancelled or had a last episode.

You see those shows so many times they become less funny everytime. But The War At home is making new episodes everytime.

What other show, thats still being taped, thats not on a pay channel, makes such mature jokes as this one.

I mean ABC seems to enjoy making big budget hour long shows, NBC is sending all it's money to Heroes(Which I'm happy about, BTW) and CBS is hooked on crime drama.

Fox is the only main network that seem's to enjoy making different styles of shows.

You have a collection of big budget shows like 24, witty sitcoms like The War at Home and talent shows like American Idol.

Don't get me wrong I hate most of the major networks since they have each cancelled one of my favorite shows. FOX being the biggest piece of.... after cancelling Reunion without even finishing the 20 episode season.

That's nice to see a funny sitcom again. I haven't seen a funny sitcom like this since they cancelled That 70's Show.

Do I CAUSE YOUR DEATH? Just like you caused Erin's?
Maserati777

[–] unheardguru 17 years ago

Every network, Fox included, has been moving away from scripted comedy towards procedural dramas and reality TV. This season there have only been two half hour comedies to debut and last, and those are 30 Rock and the Class. Saying TWAH is unique amongst TV comedies is like proclaiming yourself president of a deserted island.

And I am curious as to what your point is when you say that the shows that TWAH seems to borrow from are all no longer on the air. Does that make it OK? Being derivitive is all right as long as it doesn't go head to head with the source material? All those shows that came out a few years ago that were clones of Friends were awful then, but now that Friends is done, they can put them on?

And how would you define "edgy" humor? I don't think there is a more whitebread show than Boy Meets World, but they did episodes on pre marital sex, under age drinking and pie fights. OK, maybe the Pie Fight episode isn't applicable, but you know what I mean. DJ developed an eating disorder on an episode of Full House. Al nearly got date raped on Step By Step, and Webster got all up in the pancake mix! Not to mention that very special episode of Diffrent Strokes where Nancy Reagan got America's Youth to quit drugs.

The point is that plenty of bland, edgeless shows address so called "edgy" issues.

And let me ask you this: If Fox is so behind their comedies, what happened to The Loop and Free Ride? Or better yet, when was the last time you saw a bus advertisement for TWAH? Fox doesn't care about comedy any more than any other network, with the possible exception of NBC.

Beware the According To Jim-ization of America. "Good enough" is not the same thing as "Good"

[–] Maserati7777 17 years ago

"And how would you define "edgy" humor? I don't think there is a more whitebread show than Boy Meets World, but they did episodes on pre marital sex, under age drinking and pie fights. OK, maybe the Pie Fight episode isn't applicable, but you know what I mean. DJ developed an eating disorder on an episode of Full House. Al nearly got date raped on Step By Step, and Webster got all up in the pancake mix! Not to mention that very special episode of Diffrent Strokes where Nancy Reagan got America's Youth to quit drugs"

When I say edgy I mean things like

Daves finds out some of his pot is missing. He covers himself by saying it belongs to their grandmother for medical purposes. Mike overhears this buys some at the local playground and gives it to to her. Later Hillary finds it and smokes it. Did I mention Hillary is only 16 in this episode.

Hillary wants to get breast implants but Dave tells her it's what on the inside that counts. Later Larry comes home with an unattactive girlfriend and Dave has to find a way to tell Larry he can do better without becoming a hypocrite.

Hillary starts an escort service at school.

Mike just assumes a school preiest is hitting on him, so in order to prove his point he comes on to the priest. In one scene he actually bends over slowly in front of the priest.

Anyway here's an interesting video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D53CDbe9q78

Do I CAUSE YOUR DEATH? Just like you caused Erin's?
Maserati777

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Maserati7777 17 years ago

"what happened to The Loop and Free Ride"

I read somewhere The Loop is returning, but Free Ride was cancelled.

It's not that Fox doesn't like comedy it's that they don't have any. And if you noticed comedy is usually 30 minutes and they already have no room.

So since most of their shows are only a few months, like american Idol and 24. You probably won's see The Loop until then. But it needs a partner so since

The War at Home is partnered with Til Death, Fox needs a new pilot.

Do I CAUSE YOUR DEATH? Just like you caused Erin's?
Maserati777