Question on S12 E23


Question re S12 E23

I was rewatching it and I don't really understand why "Jack" created the rift. Was this part of the future that he showed Cass? Where "Jack" got rid of Lucifer because he didn't want the competition. Or did he forsee the boys would do that for him. Or was the rift created by accident?

Also Crowley did a spell that was to close the rift to keep Lucifer in the alternate reality. But from what I saw it didn't work. Did Cass disrupt the spell by coming through the rift?

I know we won't get answers until S13 starts but thought I may have missed something and maybe you guys didn't.

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Good questions lilmac. I think it was later, that by him being born his strength was so powerful it tore the rift. Because twice we saw that beam of light travel from Kelly's hand and the diagonal light line was obviously the tear. So I think it was his birth that inadvertently created it.

I think Crowley wanted out, he wanted an escape route to end his own life, so he took it. Maybe Cas new Crowley was going to commit suicide and disturbed it? Who knows??




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I think Bella is right, Jack didn't intentionally cause the rift- it was the power generated by his impending birth that caused it.

Also Crowley did a spell that was to close the rift to keep Lucifer in the alternate reality. But from what I saw it didn't work.


It did work, it just took some time. I assumed Cas knew that a regular angel blade wouldn't kill an Archangel; he was just trying to slow Lucifer down until the rift closed and locked him in the alternate universe. But after Lucifer managed to recover and follow Cas back through the portal, Mary decided to sacrifice herself by knocking Lucifer back into the rift and holding him there until it closed.

It might make an interesting spin off. Maybe just the first one or two would be about Mary working with Bobby and other hunters in the alternate universe. But after that (however TPTB want to resolve the Lucifer/Mary storyline) the rest of the episodes could be different alternate realities. That way we could see some of our favorite characters again in 1, 2 or 3 episode arcs. Then on to the next reality.

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I didn't think either Cass or Mary knew that the rift was going to be closed. Cass was single minded to kill Lucifer when he came through the rift. The expression when he came back through it had me confused. Since Lucifer was right behind him I think he forced Cass back to the other side and then killed Cass. When Mary was pulled back through the rift I thought she had a look of surprise then glee as she was able to save her boys from the big bad.

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And the writing shouldn't leave us this confused IMO.

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I thought Dean made it pretty clear when he told Sam that despite Cas's faith in the Nephilim, Dean was putting his faith in himself, Sam, Mary, Cas and Crowley... sometimes. They were all in on the plan to trap Lucifer in the alternate reality. Cas introduced Sam and Dean to Alt!Bobby, who gave them an automatic rifle with angel killing bullets. Crowley entered the rift and put together the spell. It did seem like Mary was deliberately left out of the fight, but after half a season of angst over first Mary, then Sam lying about working with the British Men of Letters, I doubt that Dean would not have shared the detail of the plan with her.

Cas was the decoy- attack Lucifer and let Sam and Dean lure him to the rift. Once in the alt reality, Dean held off Lucifer while Crowley and Sam did the spell. It took a while for the spell to work; and it seemed like Cas's job was to stop Lucifer from coming back through the rift in the event that the Winchesters failed to hold him there long enough for him to be sealed in. However, after Cas spoke to Kelly, he seemed determined to take a more active part in protecting Jack- he stormed back into the rift and attacked Lucifer. Again, like the viewers, he must have known an angel blade wouldn't kill an archangel- but I think Cas thought stabbing Lucifer would slow him down enough for Cas to get out before the rift closed, sealing Lucifer in.

When that failed, Mary tried to knock Luci back into the alternate reality. I don't think she intended to get pulled in, but she had to know that attacking Lucifer with warded brass knuckles was going to put her close enough for him to kill her. She risked it to save her sons and to put Lucifer back in the alternate world before the rift disappeared.

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I didn't catch on that Cass was a decoy. I thought it was his obsession to kill Lucifer was the reason he reentered the rift.

Thanks

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I have my own question about 12.23. How did Sam and Dean not being born make that other universe the way it was? I don't think that can be right unless they were never supposed to be born in that universe - meaning that the angels had no reason to make sure they were born, like Lucifer was never locked in the cage, because without Dean and Sam, he would have never gotten out. That means he would've had more time to prepare for his war with Michael and the angels, and maybe that's why demons in that universe look different? I don't see how any of that has anything to do with Sam and Dean being born other than by knowing they would be born some day, the angels and demons more or less put their energy into more constructive things, rather than destructive. Like, the angels had to make sure the Winchester family tree matched up the right way going all the way back to Cain and Abel, then make sure the right things happened that would lead to Lucifer getting out of the cage without being hands-on about it, and the demons had to find a way to use the hands-on approach in getting Lucifer out of the cage, so Lucifer being locked away and all of that happened because of the anticipation of a future Dean and Sam some day that the AU didn't have? Or is there something I'm missing?

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The only way I can see that universe turning out the way it did without Sam and Dean is that angels and demons got a cousin from either blood line together when Mary didn't do the deal for John's life.

We know that Mary had family that was tied to Lawrence as Sam and Deana were settled there, but did Henry have family that was tied to Lawrence? Or is it possible that the Michael bloodline is not through Henry but through Millie, the one grandparent we know nothing about. Sure Henry is the tie to the men of letters but they could retcon it that the actual Micheal bloodline isn't.

I say that because I don't actually remember if we have a canon reason for her going to Lawrence after Henry's disappearance. Has it been officially said that the 'old man' that John was asked about since they introduced Henry. If not it could have easily been his grandfather (Millie's dad) as a step father and if it is a grandfather then that means more of John's family to play with that could be in the same town at the same time as Campbells and the YED.

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Interesting thoughts, so you're saying that a cousin of Mary and a cousin of John would've had to have two kids, and Sam and Dean's story was passed onto them, but they failed?

Why do the demons look different there? That's something else I'm pondering.

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It's possible. Adam was able to hold Michael because it was a bloodline. Cas jumped to Claire because it was a bloodline. It isn't a jump to say that the replacement hosts of both Raphael and Hannah were related to their original hosts.

Other members of Sam and Dean's family would have the potential to give viable vessels just they wouldn't have the thing that forged Sam and Dean to succeed - John Winchester.

Because like it or not Sam and Dean succeeded because of the way that John brought them up in. Sam was able to break through because Dean was there and why was he there? The codependent bond that John had brainwashed into them. How did the boys hold out so long for Sam to try and become a vessel on his terms - the skill set that John gave them and the people that John brought them into contact with and the bond with them - Bobby.

Adam didn't have that as John dipped in and out of his life. He was stubborn but didn't know he could or should hold out against Michael in the way Dean could and he had no reason to. Him staying him to help his brother not weaken because that is what was drilled into him didn't happen.

As for why demons look different there, no idea. We don't really know how much different they are going to look yet. Guessing they got the budget from somewhere to make some CGI/prosthetic demons in the terms of Buffy instead of shadowing everything or making it look human.

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Also, what about Dean being the Righteous Man? Was Alistair breaking him in Hell not needed to start breaking the seals, or are we guessing that something else happened there?

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Am guessing that any vessel marked for the main Michael vessel would be marked as the righteous man and for Alistair would need to break them as the first seal.

Though if they were weaker than Dean it may cause huge problem for the angels. Sure Dean was torturing when they got to him but he wasn't fully striped of his humanity or he would have been a demon. What if they didn't get to the new righteous man before they became a demon?

No Michael vessel and it would explain why the angels are going around wearing baby ears as I thought that the angels weren't actively out to kill humans in the apocalypse in the reality where Sam and Dean were born. Instead they viewed any deaths as collateral damage. But what if their great hope to get one up on Lucifer turns into a demon what is to stop them just viewing Humans as something that isn't reliable and is as bad as demons?

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Am guessing that any vessel marked for the main Michael vessel would be marked as the righteous man and for Alistair would need to break them as the first seal.


No, I don't agree with this at all. Dean being the Righteous Man wasn't because he was Michael's vessel. He just happened to be both. And he would've had to sell his soul and still die a righteous man to become that seal.

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John can be argued to be a candidate for a righteous man too, just he didn't break so the seal didn't break because he didn't get off the rack as if I mind right the first seal breaks when 'a' righteous man sheds blood in hell.

So if the angels have two new vessels they could like Sam and Dean manipulate a situation where one goes to hell and basically breaks and it would still be kind of close to Kripke's canon.

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He couldn't have been, or he would have been.

There was only one who could stop it. :)

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So sorry Clue, I can't agree with you.

If there was only one who could stop it then Nick, Adam and John wouldn't have been able to hold Lucifer or Michael at all.

John sold his soul with the exact reasoning that Dean did and his body could house Michael, the only difference was John wouldn't get off the rack in the terms everyone wanted. So either one would have done as the righteous man as long as they sold their soul in the right way and got off the rack.

And yeah, Chuck may have said that the only reason Jess died was because of some sick symmetry to force Sam to suffer the same was John had and to force him back on the road and I get Gabriel also went on about the symmetry of the brothers with Michael and Lucifer and they may have wanted it to be Sam and Dean but that doesn't mean it really needed to be for it to work.

The true vessel bit just meant that if need be Sam and Dean's bodies could hold out a bit longer in a fight than the others who housed Lucifer and Michael but it doesn't mean they were perfect, otherwise Sam wouldn't have had to be like Nick and chug any demon blood to prep for Lucifer.

In the end all what the Apocalypse was waiting for after Lucifer got free was Michael showing up and he did in plan B vessel Adam who didn't fit the brotherly symmetry that Gab was going on about as he was the little brother who happened to have a big chip on his shoulder about his Dad and he wasn't the dutiful son like Michael and Dean were.

Michael said it himself it was a bloodline while in John and Cain said his bloodline was one in 10, that is a lot of bodies. What was important about the brothers being raised like they were is that they affected the outcome. So it is possible in the other universe that when Dean and Sam didn't get born others were tapped but couldn't bring about the same outcome.

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Stopping the Apocalypse had nothing to do with being a vessel. That's just what the angels thought that prophecy meant. It was because Dean showed up in Stull Cemetery that the Apocalypse didn't happen.

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Exactly Dean showed up and it gave Sam the will to break through. Dean and Sam being who they were was the thing that stopped the apocolypse as well as being vessels.

Now imagine Michael in Adam facing say a lucifer in cousin Gwen Campbell. similar bloodlines but not the brothers. Would there be anything to help break through to her to stop Lucifer and Michael going toe to toe?

So any variation on who the vessels and righteous man were could change the outcome of

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I don't even understand what we're disagreeing about at this point. :)

I think my point originally was that essentially, the AU minimizes Sam and Dean's importance in seasons 1-4 and part of 5, but turns that around by saying they ultimately saved the universe. I just should've come right out and said it instead of asking facetious questions.

I think that's where we got sidetracked, because I disagree that in the SPN universe, anyone but Dean could have been the righteous man. Alistair causing him to break in hell AND being the only one who could stop the Apocalypse was what made Dean the only one who could fulfill that prophecy. John couldn't have gotten through to Sam. Adam couldn't have gotten through to Sam. Random Winchester X could have gotten through to Sam. Only Dean could have, and that's what made him the only one who could fulfill that prophecy in it's entirety.

Anyway, I still think that something weird had to have happened before Sam and Dean should have been born in that universe (more than Mary not making her deal - like something with the angels), not that them not being born is what caused it to look like that, but something that happened maybe with the angels or something with the angel's understanding of the 'bloodlines' they needed to get right for Sam and Dean to exist in the SPN universe.

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In a cack handed way I think the idea here is that the writers are trying to big up the importance of Sam and Dean but not showing it in a real sense yet because I agree no-one but Dean and Baby could have gotten through to Sam and no-one but Sam would have fought to break through to stop beating Dean to death.

It is just we are disagreeing where exactly the brothers are important to the apocalypse. For me everything before the cemetery can have someone else inserted of similar blood and situation. For me what they are vital for is what happened at the cemetery as without Sam and Dean things wouldn't have really come to a head and ended.

But I don't think that means the prophecy doesn't make sense - just the angels and demons interpreted it wrong, just like Cas said we do with the bible. The ability to be in different vessels means the Michael/ Luci grudge match and the possible accompanying world damage was possible at any time if Luci got free. The 'true vessels' prophecy was just Chuck's way of managing the when and trying to find a way to stop the worse of what could happen while trying to teach his sons a lesson.

But throwing Sam and Dean into the mix at the cemetery after how they were brought up was a way of trying to show that Luci and Michael the power of just being there for each other. Luci and Michael got to see that the one who felt lesser could get strength from the stronger one to gain control of himself and get what was important when the stronger one put aside the real BS. That was something Michael never did for Luci but Luci would never get it wasn't all about him either.

As for Sam and Dean not being born, I don't think something weird was necessary. It is possible that Mary did what we have been shown that was bad and just didn't make stupid deal for a loved one, through free will. But even though at the time she was right not to she suffered the consequences of it with the world being dragged into darkness and becoming a drunk.

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It is just we are disagreeing where exactly the brothers are important to the apocalypse. For me everything before the cemetery can have someone else inserted by other of similar blood or situation. For me what they are vital for is what happened at the cemetery as without Sam and Dean things wouldn't have really come to a head and ended.


But the righteous man prophecy was a two parter, and I think that's what makes Dean the only one who could fulfill it.

"As for Sam and Dean not being born, I don't think something weird was necessary. It is possible that Mary did what we have been shown that was bad and just didn't make stupid deal for a loved one, through free will. But even though at the time she was right not to she suffered the consequences of it with the world being dragged into darkness and becoming a drunk."

But the angels went to a lot of trouble to make sure that happened, i.e. made sure that Mary and John met, so why didn't they then step in to make sure that John survived in that universe? It's like they had the set up of influencing the perfect lines, got to the finishing line and tripped over their feet, but decided not to get up and finish it, whereas they did in our universe.

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The problem with the line in Head on a pin when Alistair brings up the fact that he tried the same tack with John but John was stronger than Dean to goad Dean is that it also gives the opening to say John could have been the righteous man but Alistair failed with him.

Because in a way it can be argued that John did finish things, just him finishing it was through the sons he shaped. Because John being the one to snap Sam out of it wouldn't have happened but Dean wouldn't have been able to either if he hadn't been brought up to have such as strong bond with Sam while being strong enough to take a beating that would kill normal men while Sam was breaking through to stop Dean being pounded. They were only was able to do that through being raised the way they were by John after Mary's death. John gave Dean the skills to break through to Sam but that is not taking away from Dean as Dean chose to turn up at that cemetery.

However brothers would have been completely different men if John hadn't raised them like he did, they may not have been strong enough to save everyone they wouldn't have been bonded into the same way.

As for the angels, yes they went to a lot of trouble to get Mary and John together but it was the demons who killed John to get the access deal. Something that was dependent on the same consent that Luci and Michael needed from Sam and Dean. That would have been dependent on the thing that the angels couldn't control free will. Also Mary is a hunter if the angels tried to salvage the situation by resurrecting John even if she said 'No' to the YED.

Well, Mary seeing John killed then brought back to life by angels she didn't understand? It may have caused her to run or to kill what in her head would have been 'revenant' John. Either way no Winchester boys. Though we won't know until we get next season.

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So now you're giving John all the credit for stopping the Apocalypse just so you can say that John was a potential righteous man when I say there was only ever one righteous man who could have been the first seal AND who could've stopped the Apocalypse? ;p

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Just saying that the prophecy could be interpreted that way if John got off the rack. It's mouldable, just as most prophecies can be moulded to fit circumstance if the person interpreting it wants it.

But sure John Winchester all the way, baby!!!! Hahaha

Now all JDM has to do is put that stupid bat down and come visit Supernatural ;)

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Been thinking about this a lot since this morning. It seems like Angels are aware of other realities and when time changes (The End, French Mistake, Heart will go on). What if the Alt verse is just another Angel manipulation to get a Sam and Dean. Azazel's plan was always to open the Hell Gate so in Alt verse that still happened. To raise Lucifer he would still need a righteous man. Without a righteous man they couldn't raise Lucifer and it would look like the season finale. So the Angels send back a Cupid to ensure that John and Mary fall in love. That creates the two perfect Michael and Lucifer vessels. Now that Dean exists they can send him back in time to cement the timeline and universe they wanted for the Michael and Lucifer showdown.

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I don't know if it is an angel manipulation or more of a way to kind of redeem Mary through bigging up the need for Sam and Dean as we know them to be involved in stopping the Apocalypse. As it appears the Mary from that universe didn't take the deal but Mary in 'our' universe did.

Dean said in his speech while tidying up the bunker that the deal she made made them who they were and they kick ass. Without it, it appears the world would have fallen into a cosmic war that wipes out most of humanity.
So making our Mary completely vindicated in her making the deal.

Though personally even if they make Mary a general who single handledly save the apoco world it doesn't redeem her to me. I get the keeping her distance but she willingly signed up to work in a death squad and used her sons as brute force while keeping them in the dark. A confession about how she kept her distance because it was hard and wanted to make things better doesn't wipe out those choices.

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Azazel said he was hoping Sam would be the psychic kid that would lead Lucifer's army, but he had Jake, Ava, Andy and many others to choose from. He also let John trade his life for Dean's because Hell needed a righteous man to break the first seal to free Lucifer. But when they couldn't break John, the crossroads demon Dean summoned to bring Sam back was tasked with only offering Dean one year- because Hell had a new righteous man to use in their plan. Sam and Dean were ideally suited to be the vessels for Lucifer and Michael, but they were not the only options.

There are millions of descendants of Cain and Abel, so there's bound to be thousands of bloodline "matches" other than the Winchesters and Campbells that the angels could have manipulated for their purpose. Sam and Dean not being born would not necessarily have stopped the apocalypse plan-- it would only change the outcome.

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See, I thought about one of Azazel's other psy kids leading the demon army, but then I thought about how Lucifer only sent him on that mission to find a special child, so that child would then kill Lilith. That doesn't necessarily change anything as any random psy kid could have presumably done that. And I guess the demons could've somehow found a random righteous man willing to sell his soul, so Alistair could break the first seal, and that random righteous man was the only one who could stop it, but didn't . . . maybe because he agreed to become Michael's vessel, and he wasn't strong enough as he wasn't a OTV . . . same goes for Nick, because I guess Lucifer still went to him . . . except that raises all kinds of questions about the prophecies in that universe that lead to Sam and Dean being and born.

Gabriel said the angels had always known it would come down to Sam and Dean, which is why the angels went about making sure the lines of Cain and Abel eventually lead to Sam and Dean. Does that mean that those prophecies weren't there or weren't the same, and if that's the case, then how much of it is because Sam and Dean weren't born, and how much of it is because the prophecies weren't there?

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Does that mean that those prophecies weren't there or weren't the same[/quote]
The prophecies were the same, but they were just prophecies... predictions, not set-in-stone inevitable outcomes.
[quote]Gabriel said the angels had always known it would come down to Sam and Dean

But it didn't; when Dean refused to be Michael's vessel, they went with plan B and resurrected Adam. And Lucifer lost his chance to fight Michael when Sam regained control of his vessel to stop Lucifer from killing his brother. Neither Heaven nor Hell foresaw that happening.

The prophecy was always that the apocalypse would be fought and half of Earth would be destroyed in the battles. What changed things was Sam and Dean Winchester exercising their free will and refusing to go along with the plan that Heaven and Hell had prepared for. A reality where the Winchesters were never being born meant the prophecy was fulfilled (probably by another line of Cain and Abel- plan C?) and the apocalypse happened as predicted.

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I think people are confusing me saying prophecy to mean the ones about the righteous man and all the rest of it. I'm specifically talking about what Gabriel said about everything coming down to Sam and Dean, something angels had known since creation, and I'm talking about what the angels did to facilitate that by having cupid make sure John and Mary got together . . . the whole chain of events that had to have been coordinated to make Sam and Dean be born was predicated on what Gabriel said and match-making in Heaven, so if the angels just sat back and didn't do those things, does that mean they didn't have the same loose plan the angels in the SPN universe followed. And if that's the case, then it's down to those loose plans not existing or the angels not interpreting them the same way, so it's really more that, than Sam and Dean not being born that lead to that world being the way it is.

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The plan to get John and Mary together did happen. The cupid made sure they met, fell in love, and planned to get married. But when Azazel killed John in 1973 (as seen in 4.3 In the Beginning) the plan to ensure Dean and Sam were born was derailed. As Alt!Bobby said, John Winchester died more than 40 years ago, and when Mary Campbell (she never married) was drunk, she would talk about how he was the love of her life.

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Except now I wonder if Azazel is how John was killed, because I always thought that by sending Dean back to the past, the angels put Mary on Azazel's radar. Without John figuring out that Azazel visited Mary's friend on the farm and Dean reading that in his journal to know where Azazel would be, Samuel and Mary would have had no reason to go there, which would mean that John wouldn't have been killed by Azazel. I think if Mary was killed in some kind of keeping with fate when our John would have died, just slightly different, then anything could have killed John, and Mary was either never given the option to make a deal or just didn't make a deal if somehow Azazel did still find out about her.

I also know that with Dean not being born there, that couldn't be done, but with the effort our angels made to ensure that both John survived and Mary made her deal by sending Dean back in time, the angels in that universe would've found another way to do it. They just didn't, which means they didn't follow through on the things Gabriel said they'd always known, and as a result there was no Dean to send back.

Honestly, I don't think the writers put as much thought into this as they should have, and I don't think that they remember the cupid thing. I think they just wanted a loose parallel between AU!Mary and our John, so that Mary and John's roles were reversed. I think it's supposed to be some kind of a lesson for Mary to learn that her 'deal' wasn't a bad thing.

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Yeah, I never factored the time travel thing. You are right, if Dean didn't go back in time then Azazel would never have offered the deal to Mary in the first place. So in that scenario, John and Mary would still be brought together by a cupid. Since Dean did not go back in time, Azazel did not kill John meaning that John and Mary ran away together and had Dean. Which means Dean existed to go back in time for Azazel to kill John......Paradox....this is why Time travel is maddening.

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:)

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It can be explained pretty simply depending on how far you want to go with it. If things went basically the same way then which ever psychic kid won the contest would open the Hellgate. The gate remaining open would unleash Lilith and the rest of hell onto the world. That would wipe out the majority of the world and would look like what was shown in the finale. From that point, the Angels could have reentered the world just to fight the chaos.

Now if they wanted to go further with the story line, Azazel could have found another righteous man to break the first seal and that person wouldn't have to be Michael's vessel. Everything would go plan B and the psychic kid would be Lucifer's vessel and the Angels could resurrect John for Michael's vessel. In the world we saw, you would have to say Lucifer won the battle as it was suppose to result in a paradise for the human survivors. I lean to the first scenario with Lilith unleashed and Lucifer in the cage.

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Yeah, I don't dispute that things after Sam and Dean being born were changed in those possible ways. It's the things that were changed prior to their birth that I'm questioning.

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Well, in Sam and Dean's universe, they were able to undo all of Heaven and Hell's plans. It is possible in the Alt-verse that Mary was able to do the same with choosing to let John die. It seemed like heaven was all in on the Dean and Sam fight so it was kind of all or nothing. If you are into quantum theory and parallel universes at all there is speculation that whenever there are multiple choices a new universe is created to support every outcome. Going by that there would have to be two universes, one where Mary said yes and one where she said no.

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If you are into quantum theory and parallel universes at all there is speculation that whenever there are multiple choices a new universe is created to support every outcome.


Yeah, I wrote a fanfiction that deals with this somewhat. :)

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