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Mom's not a thing. Why do they give Sam lines like this?


"Mom's not a thing." Why do the writers insist on giving Sam lines like this? Sam knows how Dean reveres their mother. Clearly, Dean doesn't think of her as a 'thing'; he doesn't need to be scolded by his brother for it. Especially when he's clearly yearning for something, one thing, to go right for him/them for once. It just makes Sam seem like a douche and they do it so often.

It's hardly the only instance of him talking down to Dean like this, just the most recent. It's like they want me to dislike him.

All the warm fuzzies I felt for him at the end of the last episode just evaporated again with this one line.

*Edited subject for clarity.



"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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Because how would Dean know right from wrong without a daily dose of Samsplaining?

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Heheh. As someone else pointed out to me, there is absolutely no purpose to this line except for Sam to talk down to Dean. None.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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As someone else pointed out to me, there is absolutely no purpose to this line except for Sam to talk down to Dean. None.
Nope, none at all, which just makes Sam sound like a d-bag. The guys have each other, on the same page, blah, blah, blah? Yeah, I don't think so, not with lines like that.

These writers ... their motivation baffles me.

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Yeah but see the guys have changed lines before - at least Jensen has. So Jared can't question something like this - make one small change in the line?

Or do they like Sam looking like a d-bag? Or maybe they don't realise he looks like that?

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Sam is still deeply pissed Dean did not let him die when he wanted to go back in the season when he had an angel possess Sam to heal him after failing to redeem Crowley.

Sam was actually talking with Death, ready to let it go. He felt he had done his part. Dean refused to let him go. Selfish.

Then again a season later when Dean was a demon and essentially dead, Sam refused to give up on saving him somehow (in spite of Dean telling him not to bother). Was that though revenge for not letting him go?? As in "You dragged me back here and now you ain't getting out this easy"?

I thought it a terrible writer stink job when they had Sam doing almost the very thing Dean did a season before that pissed Sam off. But maybe not.

Back to my original thought... Sam is pissed at Dean and so he gets in zingers like "Mom is not a thing" whenever he can.

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Sam was actually talking with Death, ready to let it go. He felt he had done his part. Dean refused to let him go. Selfish.


Really? So, when Sam allowed someone to be murdered by a Reaper in "Faith" so that Dean could live--against Dean's strongly expressed wishes--that wasn't selfish? At least Dean had the reasoning at the beginning of season nine that the last he'd heard, Sam wanted to live, enough to give up the Trials, so there was no reason to believe Sam really meant it when he was telling "Death" he was ready to go.

The Historical Meow http://thesnowleopard.net

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Reapers, at least on this show, do not murder people. If they did Sam and Dean would be dead as that Reaper has it out for them after killing death (God this all sounds so stupid...). I do not know the show Chapter and Verse so while I have watched every ep I do not recall the incident you mention.

Yes both of the brothers are selfish when it comes to letting each other go. But the inconsistency in their actions regarding one another is just the writers\show runners agenda to keeping the show running. Except early on when Kripke was running tings and the show had consistent writing (and a 5 season expiration date). Remember Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back from the dead? And then at the end of that season (3 I believe) Hellhounds came for Dean and killed him? Sam did nothing to stop the Hellhounds. They were coming and that was that. Nowadays, Super Winchester would find an ancient spell or Roweena would whip up a potion or Crowley would...

AND recall the ep back in the good old days when it was revealed how many times the brothers HAD died only to have heaven restore them due their important role in the battle between Satan and Michael??

Law of averages is against them ever growing old but... right now the motive of the show is to keep both brothers alive no matter what happens.

Sam gave up the trials as I recall because Dean dragged him out of the barn. Sam was in such bad shape he could not fight off Dean or probably even finish the trials. Nonetheless, Dean took him to a hospital where the next season picked up.

My thought regarding Sam being pissed at Dean maybe nonsense since I do not think the writers even think like that. Their job is to try and keep the show edgy while always always finding an "out" for either brother should the end be nigh (turning the Darkness into a person was horses**t. It should have remained an invisible yet unstoppable force that covered the earth in endless night - but that would have been probably too expensive to film! So we get a persona. A target. Surely it meant eventually the duo - with help - would find a way to stop it. God showing up was a cool thing, I admit, and while the Darkness was never vanquished it is no longer a threat. On to the next...).

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Sam gave up the trials because Dean asked him to, but it was still Sam's choice. Dean didn't drag him anywhere. Sam basically asked for a reason to go on, Dean gave him some, and then Sam asked: How do I stop? And accepted Dean's help. So the last thing Dean heard from Sam was that he wanted to live. Whatever Sam said and did in his coma/dream-state was not known to Dean.

Not telling Sam what happened once he was conscious again? That is all on Dean. Saving his life via the only means available to him? That was also on Dean and he did the only thing he could: he saved his brother.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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I'd have to go back and re-watch all of that but I'll take your word for it.

Even so he knew asking a angel recently fallen from heaven to inhabit Sam without Sam's knowledge or consent was not just wrong but possibly dangerous (as indeed it turned out to be and cost Kevin his life).

Anyway it is a once decent now subpar horror show. Kripke should have kept it to his plan but the people who owned the show (like they owned the "X-Files" and ran it into the ground) said "No way it's a ratings hit!". Kripke left. End of show on many levels. Since season six it has gotten increasing ridicules (just my opinion). Kudos to Jared and Jason for keeping a straight face.

"Penny Dreadful", "Black Mirror" (an anthology show), "Les Revenants" (the French version, season one), are all head and tail above "Supernatural". Worthy of lengthy discussions. We here are simply wasting time.

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Feel free to stop wasting your time then. This whole 'should've ended after season five' natter might've held water if the show hadn't successfully completed six more seasons, working on a seventh.

There is room on television for more than just the shows you deem worthy. And honestly, if you can't even remember the episodes, then your opinion doesn't really hold any weight for me. Enjoy your 'quality' shows.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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Reapers, at least on this show, do not murder people. If they did Sam and Dean would be dead as that Reaper has it out for them after killing death (God this all sounds so stupid...). I do not know the show Chapter and Verse so while I have watched every ep I do not recall the incident you mention.


And yet, a Reaper *did* murder people in "Faith" because he was under a compulsion spell by a human. And as soon as that spell was broken, he turned on that human and murdered her.

So, yes, Reapers are quite capable of murdering people and have been shown to do so.

It would help your case immensely if you stopped going on endlessly about how you loved the show best in the first five seasons (which, it seems, you barely remember), but we're supposed to fill in all the (whole lotta) stuff you just plumb forgot, and actually went back and *watched* those seasons.

Yes both of the brothers are selfish when it comes to letting each other go.


This is an opinion. And not one you've done a very good job of supporting so far.

But the inconsistency in their actions regarding one another is just the writers\show runners agenda to keeping the show running.


Seriously? Did you just start watching television?

Except early on when Kripke was running tings and the show had consistent writing (and a 5 season expiration date).


Kripke on his own couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag. How do I know? He went on to write "stellar" shows like Revolution and Timeless, that's how I know. A major part of Kripke's "greatness" stems entirely from the solid and experienced writing and production team the network got together to support him.

Also, this show has been on longer now than it was under Kripke, which means it's past time for Kripke fanboys like you to make a decision either to accept the show as it is post-Kripke or piss off to watch some other show.

Remember Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back from the dead? And then at the end of that season (3 I believe) Hellhounds came for Dean and killed him? Sam did nothing to stop the Hellhounds. They were coming and that was that.


I'm beginning to suspect you never watched the earlier seasons of this show. If you had, you would clearly remember that Sam spent all season three doing all sorts of shady things to save Dean and that he was still doing so right up to the point where he and Dean were attacked by Lilith and her Hell Hounds.

The only reason Sam wasn't able to stop the Hell Hounds was because Lilith was white-lighting him.

Nowadays, Super Winchester would find an ancient spell or Roweena would whip up a potion or Crowley would...


Oh, sure, it's so much worse now with human Sam having to fight as a human, as opposed to those precious-as-rubies early seasons when he was a whiny super-human with demon blood powers and his very own demon-witch mistress.

AND recall the ep back in the good old days when it was revealed how many times the brothers HAD died only to have heaven restore them due their important role in the battle between Satan and Michael??


You mean that *one* episode where we found out that Sam's idea of Heaven didn't include his family in it? At all? And Dean was so hurt that he dropped the amulet he'd worn since childhood in the trash? Oh, yeah. Good times.

Law of averages is against them ever growing old but... right now the motive of the show is to keep both brothers alive no matter what happens.


In Hunter terms, they already are old. That ship has sailed, burned, sunk, and turned into an underwater nature preserve. Time to move on from that tired trope.

Sam gave up the trials as I recall because Dean dragged him out of the barn. Sam was in such bad shape he could not fight off Dean or probably even finish the trials. Nonetheless, Dean took him to a hospital where the next season picked up.


Complete and utter bollocks. Sam gave up the Trials because Dean told him he had found a better way and Sam chose to stop.

My thought regarding Sam being pissed at Dean maybe nonsense since I do not think the writers even think like that. Their job is to try and keep the show edgy while always always finding an "out" for either brother should the end be nigh (turning the Darkness into a person was horses**t. It should have remained an invisible yet unstoppable force that covered the earth in endless night - but that would have been probably too expensive to film! So we get a persona. A target. Surely it meant eventually the duo - with help - would find a way to stop it. God showing up was a cool thing, I admit, and while the Darkness was never vanquished it is no longer a threat. On to the next...).


Was this word salad supposed to mean something? FYI, if you're going to criticize writers on their job, you need to write a coherent sentence, let alone paragraph, about it.

The Historical Meow http://thesnowleopard.net

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Sad but true.   

"Everybody creates what they fear most."

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Because how would Dean know right from wrong without a daily dose of Samsplaining?


I genuinely laughed out loud at this.

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Because the writers seem to be going overboard on their golden boy "perfect son" Sam. They seem to think this makes Sam look empathetic to Mary's plight and makes Dean the selfish one only thinking of his feelings.

Based on one picture for next week, I think we're in for a lot more of it.

Chuck on Dean- Firewall between light and Dark
Rob on Jensen- The man is a gift to tv

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And it's really funny because I could see Dean going out of his way to try and help her as best as he could. He wasn't being selfish. He was just hoping in a way I don't think he had before but I suspect he know all along that it would end this way. He didn't want to face it until he had to. 

"Everybody creates what they fear most."

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Yeah that annoyed the hell our of me as well. Dean wasn't even referring to Mary when he said thing. He said something to the effect of "We just got mom back, can't we have one good thing for once". Mom coming back is the good thing, he's not saying mom is a thing. Sam of all people should know that Mary is not just a thing to Dean.

Sam's insistance that Mary was struggling and that they had to talk about was annoying as well. Dean never said that she didn't have a hard time, just that the needed to give her time to adjust. Which seems pretty sensible.

Nothing in the world that's worth having comes easy

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Besides talking wouldn't have changed the outcome.

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"Mom's not a thing."


This was pretty stupid.

Dean"Can't we have one good thing."

Sam "Mom's not a thing."

It like they were trying to start something for melodrama and didn't think it all the way through.

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Reading through this thread made me wonder:

1) how do you guys know these lines were scripted and not improvs?

2) how is "Mom's not a thing." more condescending to Dean's character than Jensen's pie bit in the last episode?

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1) It doesn't matter. Scripted: the writers make Sam seem like a douche. Improved: Jared makes Sam seem like a douche. I lean towards scripted.

2) It's not. But the subject of the thread is this line of dialogue.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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Did I miss the separate thread you made bemoaning the pie bit?

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Nope. But feel free to start one and I'll happily post in it. Agreeing*, for the record. That still doesn't have any bearing on this thread.

*ETA: Qualifying that --- I don't like (to put it mildly) when they have Dean eat like a 2 year old. Whether it's script direction or Jensen's idea (doubtful), I loathe it. However, even with that, there's a difference between Dean (or Jensen) mocking himself, and Sam (or Jared, or the writers) being a condescending douchebag to Dean. << I'll post that in your thread, should you decide to start one.



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eel free to start one and I'll happily post in it. Agreeing*, for the record. That still doesn't have any bearing on this thread.

*ETA: Qualifying that --- I don't like (to put it mildly) when they have Dean eat like a 2 year old. Whether it's script direction or Jensen's idea (doubtful), I loathe it. However, even with that, there's a difference between Dean (or Jensen) mocking himself, and Sam (or Jared, or the writers) being a condescending douchebag to Dean. << I'll post that in your thread, should you decide to start one.

+ 1 << I'll post that after your post in the other thread if it is started as well.

"Everybody creates what they fear most."

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I don't mind that Dean has a healthy appetite or that he's a junk food junkie. I do mind that he's depicted with food hanging out of his mouth one too many times. This isn't Dean. Maybe Jensen thinks it's funny, maybe the director suggests it... but it doesn't fit with Dean. He's not a slob in any other sense (check out his room). And if he was - then Sam would be too. I'm sure John never enforced table manners.

Anyway, it annoys me. Nowhere near as annoying, tho, as that condescending remark from Sam. And if there's one think Jared's really good at, it's delivering these kinds of Dean-belittling lines (YOU only sacrifice when it doesn't hurt YOU).

As a card-carrying Dean girl it really gets up my nose. I'm sure Sam fans have their own list of complaints about the way Dean treats Sam - ok, he's bossy, he teases mercilessly, he tends to punch first argue later. But I don't remember a time when Dean was ever intentionally mean-mouthed when Sam was hurting.

On the other hand - it kinda makes these brothers REAL. I don't want them vanilla or without character depth. The way Sam deals is to lash out with his tongue, Dean tends to lash out with his fists.



Saving people, hunting things, the family business

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>>And if he was - then Sam would be too. I'm sure John never enforced table manners.

Well, except that Sam was away from them for a while and was at college and had a girlfriend. He also went to a friend's house for Thanksgiving, etc. He may have learned more manners that way. Besides, even two kids raised the same way don't always react to it the same way. Maybe young Sam saw his brother eating and thought he was gross and went out of his way not to be like him. Anyway, I don't especially like it when Dean eats that way, either, but as long as it's just in the bunker with Sam and Mary, it's not too bad. The time when it was just Sam's version of the story we were seeing doesn't count and while I am not denying that there were other times, I can't think of one off hand.

I do not have attention deficit disor...Ooh, look at the bunny! 

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And sometimes Dean does it deliberately to annoy/gross out Sam. Another very brotherly thing to do. Those times don't bother me.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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I don't mind that Dean has a healthy appetite or that he's a junk food junkie. I do mind that he's depicted with food hanging out of his mouth one too many times. This isn't Dean. Maybe Jensen thinks it's funny, maybe the director suggests it... but it doesn't fit with Dean. He's not a slob in any other sense (check out his room).

ITA with you. I find it annoying and not really funny. He might be doing it for a laugh but, once again, it's a laugh at the character's expense which saddens me. I do know that several fans find it entertaining and amusing. I'm just not one of them.

"Everybody creates what they fear most."

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I love Dean's enthusiasm for food - it's one of the few real pleasures in his life. But unless he's doing it to deliberately annoy/gross out Sam, it's just not funny.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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I love his enthusiasm for food and understand it's one of the few pleasures in life. I know first hand how that can be. It's when he goes over the top, like eating the pie in that manner. That's what I find annoying, if you know what I mean.


"Everybody creates what they fear most."

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Yep, I sure do.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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I'm actually okay with the food thing. Dean is a big personality and has been portrayed (especially recently) as a genius. Geniuses have quirks, some of them odder than others. That's one of Dean's more minor ones.

I'm more bothered by other characters (especially Sam) talking down to Dean *and* the writers portraying this as acceptable behavior. I've been seeing ads lately for syndicated reruns of Fraser and I think Sam is kind of a Fraser type. Fraser is a snob (and so is his brother Niles), but he also has quirks where he throws hilarious, rather Sam-like tantrums. The big difference (aside from it being a comedy) is that Fraser's rants are not portrayed as mature or acceptable, the way Sam's are--that's why they're funny. If there were more push-back for Sam from Dean, I think the story would feel more balanced.

The thing is that Dean fully has the bulk of the audience's sympathy. When another character puts him down, that damages the other character, not Dean, with the audience. I just don't think that's necessary to do all the time. It wasn't necessary to make Mary look like a cold, self-centered bitch. It's not necessary to make Sam look like a toddler masquerading as an adult, either.

The Historical Meow http://thesnowleopard.net

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The bottom line for me is that it's one thing for Dean (or Jensen) to mock himself. It's not okay for Sam to do it. Not on such a regular basis and definitely not in such an undeserved situation as what Dean said about having 'one good thing'. It was a nitpick and completely out of line, given what they are dealing with.

You're absolutely right in that it's more damaging to Sam's character than Dean's - unfortunately, I don't believe for a second that is or was the intention of the writers (or whoever is responsible for this line and its delivery).



"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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This is crap writing, through and through, but IA that it was the writer's intent that Sam was being portrayed as the more "empathetic" brother there. The problem is that, as usual with these writers concerning any brother dialogues, at this point, the "show" is completely at odds with the "tell". My feeling is that this is just yet another set-up for Dean to be "schooled" by everyone and their mother(Heh. Literally speaking, this time) on what it means to be "family" again. Count on it.

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The thing is that Dean fully has the bulk of the audience's sympathy. When another character puts him down, that damages the other character, not Dean, with the audience.
And yet the showrunners and writers keep on delivering this exact same tripe, 12 years in, weirdly expecting different results from the audience that they're never going to get. Textbook insanity? Maybe that explains the writing on this show.

It's true, having characters - especially Sam - constantly talking down to and belittling the wildly popular Dean Winchester does not make Dean less popular nor said other character more popular. If it has any effect, it's the opposite, and they only have 12 years of feedback that this tactic is not beloved by their audience.

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I agree completely with your entire post.

But I also remember in one of the recent episodes - the one with Jodie, Claire etc? - both brothers including Sam - were eating like that.

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1) It doesn't matter. Scripted: the writers make Sam seem like a douche. Improved: Jared makes Sam seem like a douche. I lean towards scripted.

2) It's not. But the subject of the thread is this line of dialogue.


The dialogue is strange and very "teen scene" to say Mom's not a thing. Why am I thinking Saved by the Bell kind of talk??? I'm referring to that kind of writing. There is something very "teen" oriented in the writing. Just saying...I know that Supernatural has a lot of young fans. But Dean and Sam are adults and it comes across as weird when they act like kids just because the show has a teen following.

I think the show was going for the drama, like Dean and Sam know exactly what they are talking about, but trying to go around the issue?

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Meh. Dean's side of the conversation was not teen-ish, nor was Sam's, apart from this one douchey line that served no purpose except to let him talk down to Dean again.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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The dialogue is strange and very "teen scene" to say Mom's not a thing. Why am I thinking Saved by the Bell kind of talk??? I'm referring to that kind of writing. There is something very "teen" oriented in the writing. Just saying...I know that Supernatural has a lot of young fans. But Dean and Sam are adults and it comes across as weird when they act like kids just because the show has a teen following.


I commented on the episode thread that the writing in this episode came across as "Hollywood" to me. One could argue they were trying to target a younger audience, but we've seen how they write when they do it and this is, for want of a better word, too subtle. Plus, everyone involved is way over adolescence. I don't think Mary's storyline is aimed at teens.

No, I think this is a simple case of inauthentic writing, what happens when someone is lacking the experience he/she is talking about and has spent perhaps a bit too much time in the Hollywood industry echo chamber. Real people don't talk like this. It's just simplistic Hollywood BS cliches.

I do think the acting in that final scene was great and I sure hope the writers start raising their Mary game when she returns. Sam Smith is fun to watch and deserves better.

The Historical Meow http://thesnowleopard.net

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Jensen repeatedly plays up Dean's love of food. It's not condescending.

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It doesn't matter. Scripted: the writers make Sam seem like a douche. Improved: Jared makes Sam seem like a douche


This.

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I thought Sam came off a bit sexist and condescending toward his mother. Not intentionally, but he did seem to buy more into the idea of Mary the perfect June Cleaver than Dean consciously did (perhaps because he also had more emotional investment in the idea of her hating hunting than Dean did). Dean had already hunted with her in the past, whereas by the time Sam met her in "The Song Remains the Same," she had retired, and was married and pregnant. So, Dean, despite his childhood memories and the fantasy gauze he had carefully woven around them, was less shocked to see his mom want to go hunting.

The Historical Meow http://thesnowleopard.net

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It seems that both of them are seeing what they need/want to see in their mother, and in some ways, neither of them are wrong, based on what they know of her.

Unfortunately, based on what we know of Show (writers/showrunners past & present) it will likely be Dean who is left holding all the guilt/blame for not 'understanding' Mary and her needs. Just once it would be nice if one of his parents put his (and Sam's) needs before their own. Just once.

It would also be nice if Sam could stop condescending to Dean at every opportunity.

"Screw destiny, right in the face." ~Dean Winchester

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Because Sam's comments actually make him sound like a pissy adolescent. He goes to Dean for answers and leadership and then argues about it.

It's a continuation of Dean's role as a parentified child. I actually thought the boys outgrew this for a while but they're in way over their heads with this situation.

Bobby and Dean have had similar discussions about Sam (Dean concerned about Sam) and Dean actually listened to Bobby. It would have been nice if Sam actually listened and the two shared a moment of simply not knowing what to do about Mary.

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Sam acts as a pissy adolescent is canon.

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That brother convo was the weakest part of the entire episode, IMO. It came off as just another Sam lecturing Dean bit(part pitiful dialogue and part JP's poor delivery of the lines-as usual, IMO); and IA that it was put in there to make Sam seem more empathetic(and I, too, hope that it was scripted and not ad-libbed), but it failed miserably because the line was actually pathetic and painted Sam as being insensitive to his brother feelings in thinking that Dean was thinking of her as a thing. It was an awful line. Just awful. Sounded like something someone on tumblr would say, tbh.

But yeah, I also have to agree that we're likely in for more of this type of garbage. 

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but it failed miserably because the line was actually pathetic and painted Sam as being insensitive to his brother feelings in thinking that Dean was thinking of her as a thing.

And people wonder why I dislike Sam. It's not just the big things like Sam not looking for Dean, but it's the smaller things that add up over time. Sam has always talked down to Dean. I've always found it annoying.

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