It seems that any thread that has anything remotely to do with Mormons attracts accusers and bashers by the buttload. Let's see if my theory is correct. How many posts will there be when I come back that insult Mormons?
Have at it!
-The Shark
Couldn't resist, but please note this isn't an insult rather documented fact, that you would use the term "buttload" when referring to Mormons; given the fact that so many church leaders have had problems involving young boys and men with homosexual activity (whether in person or arrested for being internet predators).
shareWow, what grade are you in again? Can you please document the fact that "so many church leaders have had problems involving young boys and homosexual activity". In response to the original question, yes, it is a fact that any board remotely connected to the church will attract posters like dtmsphil and kineticut. Makes you wonder, would they be doing this if the movie was connected to Jewish people?
shareHere's your documentation:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-05-2001/0001566613&EDATE=
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon8.html
http://www.libertypages.com/clark/10421.html
http://www.lasvegastribune.com/20050909/editorials2.html
http://www.bloggernacle.org/?p=126
excerpt: "David Henry Herget, a High Priest, was excommunicated in 1993 for child rape then reinstated in 2004. The general body of the congregation knew nothing of this history and the author, Norton R. Nowlin, writes a chilling scenario of Herget having the trust of and access to primary children. Herget was recently arrested on suspicion of 18 charges, including child rape and sexual exploitation of a child."
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7653-.html
"BUTTE, Mont. - A leader in the Mormon Church was arrested in an Internet sex sting after allegedly arranging to meet a 14-year-old girl in Idaho.
Clayton R. Hildreth, stake president of the Butte chapter of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was taken into custody Wednesday at a home in Boise.
Hildreth, 51, of Dillon, was charged in federal court with one felony count of using the Internet to knowingly attempt to entice a minor to engage in sexual activity. He was released on $50,000 bond after a hearing Friday."
just to name a few...its everywhere, take a look for yourself.
By the way, I have no clue what you are implying by the "Jewish" comment?
dtmsphil, you listed 2 cases that occured. There are currently tens of thousands of church leaders. These molestations that occurred were horrible, however to blame an entire church on the actions of a couple of people is at best ignorant and at worst dishonest and disgusting. If I can show you examples of traditional Christians' sexual misconduct, will that prove they have a "buttload of problems with homosexual activity"?
shareActually, there were several cases there...you just noticed the two excerpts and didn't bother going to the web links. I guess I should've listed several more, but for some reason I don't think that would've really mattered to you.
You know what, you don't need to show me examples of traditional Christians doing bad things, because its everywhere and its wrong. But it was wrong before they did it and still wrong after they did it. In your church it seems as though you have had such a contradictory history of what's right and wrong, because it changes so much, that it seems to happen on a much larger scale and then covered up.
But I do agree with one thing you implied, Mormons and traditional Christians are not one in the same.
*yawns*
If this Church is so wrong, why are we the leading humanitarian aid in the world? Why is it that we are the ones that supply other churches' humanitarian groups with their supplies?
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that a church that does so much good can be evil. "By their fruits ye shall know them..." and all the good stuff. Yes, individuals within the Church make mistakes (pedophilia, stealing, murdering, etc.), that is because they are human too, and are not perfect. You will find the same sins no matter where you look. It is not representative of the Church as a whole. All of us strive, or should strive, to be like Christ; many of us stumble along the way.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
Remember, (and you should've even learned this in your Sunday School) good deeds have nothing to do with your final destination! If so, so many "humanitarians" wouldn't have to worry about their salvation.
shareAu contraire. Are you saying that many good people who live righteous lives are going to Hell simply because they are not Christians? They model their lives after Christ, whether knowingly or unknowingly, and yet they are going to Hell? I think not.
Good deeds have much to do with your final destination. I do not think that a loving God would condemn millions of good people who lived better than some Christians.
That's like saying that a Christian can go out and murder someone, and yet get to Heaven because *gasp* they believe in Christ. Sorry, but they broke a commandment.
The bottom line is, faith without works is dead. If you truly have faith, you will show it by your works, by striving to be Christlike. And I firmly believe that even those who display Christlike qualities without directly believing in Christ will go to "Heaven."
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
Wow, by your previous post, I actually thought you were smarter than this.
And you saying, "That's like saying that a Christian can go out and murder someone, and yet get to Heaven because *gasp* they believe in Christ. Sorry, but they broke a commandment." I didn't say anything even closely comparable to that.
And you are right, faith without works is dead, but works without faith is dead too. So, know is going to get to heaven by just being a good person. If so, there would be no need for a heaven or hell. No need for freewill, no need for a Christ that died on a cross for you and me...just be nice and the rest will take care of itself.
"They model their lives after Christ, whether knowingly or unknowingly, and yet they are going to Hell? I think not." You can't model yourself after Christ if you don't blindly and knowingly believe in Him. You are talking about a utopian religion where all good people are okay and by your comparison, that Christian that murdered someone would be okay, because they are generally a good person.
Very dangerous way of thinking.
Nevertheless, that is how I think. I really don't believe that Heavenly Father would hang so many of his children, when they *are* good people. Further, I don't think I'd want to believe in a God who claims to love His children, but does not give them every possible chance.
That is why I am so faithful in *my* religion. Hell is reserved only for those who commit the ultimate of betraying the Holy Ghost, and thus our Father.
A lesser degree of heaven is accorded to those who did not accept the Gospel or partake in our covenants. They are elevated to a higher degree if they were good, Christlike people.
The highest degree is reserved for those who kept Heavenly Father's commandments and performed our ordinances.
I don't believe that everything is black-and-white, as you do. I don't believe that our Heavenly Father would send His children to unimaginable suffering because they may or may not have had the opportunity to learn of Christ.
---
I am not talking of a "utopian religion." I *know* people who are more Christlike than many Christians, and yet they don't believe in Christ. It's like in the Chronicles of Narnia (which is a Christian allegory), the Last Battle, I believe. One of the Calormen fighters is accepted into Aslan's kingdom after Narnia is ended, and yet he did not believe in Aslan. He believed in the evil Calormen god (I forget his name). Aslan accepted him because he still acted as Aslan would have him act.
I'm not going to waste time arguing theology with you; you have your doctrine, and I have mine. They are different, and we'll get nowhere arguing about it.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
You apparently do not believe in the Bible or for that matter, Christ's own words, because they wholly contradict what you are saying!
shareIn the wise words of another "proove it." Show me where that guys doctrine is contradicted by Christ's teachings. Show me please. I know he believes in the Bible, so prove what he is saying is wrong.
sharewell if you're looking for "proof" from Christ's teachings:
He said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me." Thus the humanitarian without Jesus as his personal lord and savior will not get to heaven.
and just for good measure since this is a mormon topic, the new testament teaches "by grace you have been saved through faith, not by works" (thus there is no earning your way into heaven).
And yet the New Testament also states that faith without works is dead.
Which is it?
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
You need to read all of the New Testament, you will find that Faith without Works is dead. If you need me to look that up for I will.
shareYou said, "Are you saying that many good people who live righteous lives are going to Hell simply because they are not Christians? They model their lives after Christ, whether knowingly or unknowingly, and yet they are going to Hell? I think not."
The Bible says:
2 Peter 2
19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Philippians 3
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
***You cannot unknowingly serve Christ***
You said, "Good deeds have much to do with your final destination. I do not think that a loving God would condemn millions of good people who lived better than some Christians."
The Bible says:
2 Timothy 3
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
John 11
24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
You said, "And I firmly believe that even those who display Christlike qualities without directly believing in Christ will go to "Heaven."
The Bible says:
2 Corinthians 6
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."[b]
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."[d]
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."[e]
***you have to believe, there is no other option****
Bonus scriptures:
John 20
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 4
5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Very good job with citing scripture, that is how these discussions need to be. I totally agree with what you are saying but alos agree with what you are disagreeing. Tell me, what happens to the man who is raised in a place where Christ is not taught? Lets say he never sees or read or learns anything about Christ. Lets say that he is honest and caring and loving and all the things that we are taught. Does it seem just that he be condemed when he never had the opportunity to accept Christ? The God I believe in and the bible teaches about would not do such a thing. That is one reason why God's true church has an ordinance called baptisms for the dead. That way those who do not have the chance to hear the gospel in this life can have the chance to learn of it and accept Christ as their savior in the next. This ordinance is not new, it has just been forgotten by all churches accept the LDS church.
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but quickened in the Spirit. 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eitht souls were saved by by water.
1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Can you be any clearer? Wouldnt the true church be doing this ordinance? Show me the churches that do, all you will find is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints founded by Joseph Smith a true prophet of God. Here we plainly see the justice of God in that He has a system in place for the preaching of His gospel to His children who are no longer on earth to accept Christ. That is where your statements are a bit off. God know our intents and our true motives and He knows if we are just going through the motions of worshipping Him.
Ok, here comes my list of Faith and Works scriptures that will show us why we need to act on our Faith.
Romans 2:13-16
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
James 1:22-27
22 Bt be ye DOERS of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh int o the perfect law of liberty, and dontinueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the WORK, whis man shall be bledded in his DEED. 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Verse 27 reminds me of the Home teaching and Visiting teaching programs of the LDS church. Weird huh, maybe us Mormons arent as crazy as everyone thinks.
Matthew 7: 21-27
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in they name have cast our devils? and in they name done many woderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew your: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these saying of mine, and DOETH them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM NOT, shall be likened utno a foolish man, which built his houseupon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the flods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
So by DOING what God commands, one builds a strong foundation that will prevail against the onslaught of Satan's tempations. The doctrine of Christ is not idle. Christ did not just say believe in me and do whatever you want and you will be saved. We show God that we accept Christ through following him and DOING what he did.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.
Um, didnt you say that works had nothing to do with it? Was Matthew just confused? I dont think it can be any plainer.
Then in Matthew 25: 31-46 The Doers shall inherit the kingdom. "For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink:" etc.
All over we learn that we must be baptized, which is a work that we show faith by doing. Mark 16:15-16. John 3:3-6 & 10:1-14, 1 Peter 3:21, Galations 3:27, Acts 4:11-12. I know you have a Bible so I didnt type all these out.
Luke 6:46-49
46 And why cll me, Lord, Lord, and DO not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and DOETH them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48-49 do the building the foundation on rock again, but I think you get the idea. Luke also showed how the good Samaritan was an example of good works in Luke 10:25-37.
John 7: 16-17
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My docritn is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will DO his will, he shall know of the doctirne, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Here we learn that we are to test God's doctrine to see if it is from Him and we do that by DOING His will.
Revelation 20:12-15 I only write 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS.
Didnt you say we were not judged by our works? Weird.
James 4 14-17 only writing 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and DOETH IT NOT, to it is sin.
And to end with I will go back to James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt though know, O vain man that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 look it up 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 look it up 26 For as the body without the sprit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Ok, I think that after reading this you either believe in the Bible and believe that these were inspired men or you dont. If you believe in them then please explain why they teach that faith without works is dead? This principle is all over the Bible and yet so many Christians do not teach nor understand it. That is how we can know good men of God as Matthew taught in 7:15-20 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
This explains a few more principles tha I have been taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Why dont other churches have all of these principles staight, could it be that they do not have a prophet of God directing them by revelation. I know that President Hinckley guides Christ's true church by divine revelation. It is the only true church. Not that other churches are bad, but they do not contain the fulness of the gospel. Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. There isnt more than one true church otherwise it would be so confussing. That is why it is so confussing because there are so many churches that teach so many things. That is what compelled Joseph Smith to pray and find out which is true. We know what happened next, and we can know that it did happen only through prayer and by the revelation of the Spirit. I have and I know these things to be true, will you test it out?
by referring to Joseph Smith as a prophet you ignore the scripture where Jesus taught his followers to beware of false prophets, even those who come in Jesus name.
shareby referring to Joseph Smith as a prophet you ignore the scripture where Jesus taught his followers to beware of false prophets, even those who come in Jesus name.Sorry, Syk, but that's not how I see it. Although the scripture does say to "beware" false prophets, it does not say to beware all people claiming to be prophets, just the false ones. Just because the Latter-day Saints accept someone to be a prophet whom you and I might not, does not mean that person was not indeed a prophet. So, I'm afraid that you can't say that they're ignoring those scriputres just because they accept Joseph Smith as a prophet.
That's like saying that a Christian can go out and murder someone, and yet get to Heaven because *gasp* they believe in Christ. Sorry, but they broke a commandment.Are you so sure your Church doesn't believe exactly that? Where do you think Nephi is going to wind up after his final judgement, after what Joseph Smith "translated" from what Mormon "wrote" that Nephi himself "wrote" that he himslef did to a Jerusalem-dweller named Laban who had something that Nephi's dad wanted?
Seriously, bfc, obviously you're familiar with the passage, so why are you intentionally taking it completely out of context?
shareIs it wrong to examine a passage of "scripture" from an alternative point of view? Or must one only adapt the point of view of the "hero"? If so, who said so?
I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm just looking at it from the point of view of a criminal investigator at the scene of a probable crime.
After you've read the "scriptures" as many times as I have, you, too, will be able to do that.
"By their fruits ye shall know them..."
I've got three words for you: "Mountain Meadows Massacre" - look it up.
[deleted]
There are lots of Catholic haters out there. Ever heard of the KKK? They are just one of the many anti-Catholic groups out there.
And there are lots of anti-Scientologists, too.
It's just less not very likely to encounter a Catholic hater unless you are either a Catholic or another Catholic Hater.
Same thing about Scientologists.
I'd be willing to guess that you are a Latter-day Saint.
I'd also be willing to guess that your feelings get hurt whenever you hear something that you don't like to be said about your Church.
I'd also be willing to wager that it's either been a while since you read First Nephi Sixteen, or you haven't yet understood it.
This is one of the parts of the Book of Mormon that I always try to incorporate into my personal ministry. Sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get non-Latter-day Saints to swollow it, but it's quite true.
I'm sure you've head the old saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me".
Same kind of thing.
If someones feelings are ever hurt by something that someone else says, it's only because the listener recognizes at least an element of truth, which the listener doesn't want to acknowledge or doesnt' want anybody else to acknowledge.
It isn't the words that hurt, it's the truthfulness of those words, it's the desire to deny the truthfulness of those words.
You're right. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was by no means your fault, nor President Hinkley's fault, nor the fault of anyone else who is alive today.
I agree that it doesn't make any more sense to compare today's Latter-day Saints to Bishop Lee and his followers, that to try to make the same comparison of today's Germans to Hitler and the Third Riech.
Not all Germans were like the Nazi's, and not all Latter-day Saints are like Bishop Lee.
Nevertheless, that's what some people are going to key on. Because that's part of human nature.
It's also part of human nature to have their feelings hurt when someone says something mean but at least somewhat truthful.
My advice to everyone who gets their feelings hurt, is
1. Listen. Don't try to shut it out. Don't try to shut them up, but listen. Listen to it all. And pay attention. And when they think they're done, ask them to tell you more, but be sincere about it. Find out as much about whatever it is that hurts your feelings as you can.
2. Figure out what it is about what they were saying that was causing your feelings to be hurt so much.
3. Do whatever you can to correct whatever it is that's wrong.
If it still hurts your feelings, that's because there's still something about it that is still true that you still don't want to acknowledge and correct.
You can't correct the Mountain Meadow's Massacre. Don't try. Instead. Just acknowledge that it happened. Acknowledge that it could happen again. And do your best to keep anything like that from happning again. But also, don't try to condemn anybody else for wanting to distance themselves from anyone they perceive to be a part of that. Just do your best never to become part of anything like it.
Make sense?
[deleted]
Thanks for sharing. (Those were my three words for you minus what it is parentheses here and the quote below.)
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."--Albert Einstein
Just like Mel Gibson, by offering "propaganda" thinly veiled as "entertainment", the Moromon church has invited all the bitter ranting that will take place here. The Da Vinci Code was clearly ofgfered as fiction, but Gibson's film was offered as "fact". The difference in response is tremedous, because there is an element of FRAUD involved. You buy a DVD to be entertained, and it attempts to invoke sympathy. This angers people. It did me.
I read the back cover of the DVD before buying this movie. It mentions that it is written by someone named "Gerald Lund", whose books comprise an "epic series". The cover sleeve goes on to call this story a "pivotal moment in American history". Already, that is all false, and a complete misrepresentation. The only good -or factual thing about this movie is that it records the following: The good people of Ohio had the good sense and conviction to tar and feather Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, their oil was not hot enough -and he survived. Smith then "got out of Dodge" and went on to terrorize the good people of Missouri, who raised an army to defend themselves from the polygamist sexual deviants that invaded their state. Nowhere does it state, except for those two facts, this trash is cult propaganda. Afterwards, searching for "Lund" reveals that he has apparently sold only 2 million copies of this book (indicating that he cannot even sell it to 10% of his Mormons). The Steed family, central to the movie is admitted to be a total fiction, in the movie's own credits. Thus, there was no "history" at all. Just lies. I cannot believe Spielberg has lent his name to this movie, and allowed them to soil "Lucasfilms" by listing Lucas in the credits for this garbage. I was so insulted by this "Utah-Taliban" production, that it called for special strategy: The shop that sold me the movie has a "full refund if not satisfied" guarantee. I debated taking the movie back to get my money returned. But then, I realized that would allow someone else to watch this movie! I care too much about my fellow man to allow that, -so I burned it. Do America a favor: buy a few of these movies, -and burn them.
Just like Mel Gibson, by offering "propaganda" thinly veiled as "entertainment", the Moromon church has invited all the bitter ranting that will take place here. The Da Vinci Code was clearly ofgfered as fiction, but Gibson's film was offered as "fact". The difference in response is tremedous, because there is an element of FRAUD involved. You buy a DVD to be entertained, and it attempts to invoke sympathy. This angers people. It did me.
I read the back cover of the DVD before buying this movie. It mentions that it is written by someone named "Gerald Lund", whose books comprise an "epic series". The cover sleeve goes on to call this story a "pivotal moment in American history". Already, that is all false, and a complete misrepresentation. The only good -or factual thing about this movie is that it records the following: The good people of Ohio had the good sense and conviction to tar and feather Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, their oil was not hot enough -and he survived. Smith then "got out of Dodge" and went on to terrorize the good people of Missouri, who raised an army to defend themselves from the polygamist sexual deviants that invaded their state. Nowhere does it state, except for those two facts, this trash is cult propaganda. Afterwards, searching for "Lund" reveals that he has apparently sold only 2 million copies of this book (indicating that he cannot even sell it to 10% of his Mormons). The Steed family, central to the movie is admitted to be a total fiction, in the movie's own credits. Thus, there was no "history" at all. Just lies. I cannot believe Spielberg has lent his name to this movie, and allowed them to soil "Lucasfilms" by listing Lucas in the credits for this garbage. I was so insulted by this "Utah-Taliban" production, that it called for special strategy: The shop that sold me the movie has a "full refund if not satisfied" guarantee. I debated taking the movie back to get my money returned. But then, I realized that would allow someone else to watch this movie! I care too much about my fellow man to allow that, -so I burned it. Do America a favor: buy a few of these movies, -and burn them.
Ahmen to that
"Im sure we'll be mutilated beyond recognition by then"-Watson Prittchet(House on haunted hill)
[deleted]
How ignorant can you be? THat is insane. Actually people who are practing homosexuals are not allowed to be members of the church. So stop being so stupid!!!!
shareJust posting a non-insult.
shareLet's see... so far we have one bashing conversation going. It's funny that the whole child molestation thing isn't supposed to be considered an insult when it's obviously posted as an attempt to degrade the Mormon church's image. Although it's not as scathing as they come, I will count it as an insult. Note that I am not attempting to address the issue itself, but rather I am commenting on the purpose of the post.
I also observe some rather silly comebacks from Mormons themselves. I find it odd that anyone would simply lash out even worse in return to such accusations. It only makes the poster look less informed and less civilized. However, I would also assume that these people are rather young and may not understand how to form a proper argument.
I will cease to make any further conclusions until I observe a little more. Please, continue.
-The Shark
Yea, pretty amazing that 5 (or 10, or even 100) is evidence of systematic abuse in a Church that numbers 12 million (or even evidence of a "buttload".) I can tell you that the Church takes abuse very seriously and that they will not "move" molesters around. Really cant anyhow, since we don't have a paid ministry. All these people cited were in their Church position on a strictly volunteer basis. This is an incredibly silly argument.
sharethis whole post is lame and proves no point.
sharewhere in the world is peter frampton anyway? i think we need a full shot of 'frampton comes alive' that would help. (me anyway).
did we forget to mention that the religion with the real reputation for molestation is the catholic church? anyone want to bash the catholics? probably not - anyone know why they couldn't eat meat on fridays (or they were condemned to hell)? let's make fun of them for a while. sheesh.
Let's not.
shareI dont get your "Let's not" post? What did you mean? Nephi had to murder Laban to get the plates in order for his family to have the scriptures. Read the whole chapter it explains the reason why he had to do it.
shareLet's not make fun of anybody.
Nephi had to murder Laban to get the plates in order for his family to have the scriptures. Read the whole chapter it explains the reason why he had to do it.Had to? or decided to do that instead of doing something else? I don't believe God or the Holy Ghost, or any angel from heaven is going to force anyone to do anything. Yes, I've read what is purportedly Nephi's rationalization for killing a drunk man, and from a certain viewpoint, it makes sense, but, just think: If the same thing happened today, and Nephi had been caught by the police, and had been convicted of murder, would he or would he not be excommunicated by the leaders of the Latter-day Saint Church today? share
Well you tell me, and also lets remember what Nephi was doing, he was following his prophetic father out of Jerusalem before it was destroyed, and Nephi didnt live in todays world and God knows that. Here is what that story states.
1 Nephi 4:6-13
6 An I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do. 7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine. 8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban. 9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof;... 10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him. 11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into they hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unot the commandments of the Lord;and he also had taken away our property. 12 And it came to pass that thte Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the lord hath delivered him into thy hands. 13 Behold the lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
You say it was Nephi's rationalization for killing a man, when the scriptures say he was commanded to do it, and he didnt want to, and was commanded again. The Lord wanted his prophet Lehi to have the scriptures and Laban was given other opportunities to give them up. So the Lord commanded Nephi to kill Laban. I for one would hope that if I were put in that cituation that I would be as intune with the Spirit as Nephi, and that I would obey the Lords commandment. You cant tell me that the Lord couldnt command Nephi to do can you? If you do arent you limiting the Lord's power?
You skipped the best part!
14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: aInasmuch• as thy seed shall keep my bcommandments, they shall cprosper• in the dland• of promise.
15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the alaw• of Moses, save they should have the law.
16 And I also knew that the alaw• was engraven upon the plates of brass.
17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.
18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own asword•.
19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.
20 And after I had done this, I went forth unto the treasury of Laban. And as I went forth towards the treasury of Laban, behold, I saw the aservant• of Laban who had the keys of the treasury. And I commanded him in the voice of Laban, that he should go with me into the treasury.
21 And he supposed me to be his master, Laban, for he beheld the garments and also the sword girded about my loins.
You say it was Nephi's rationalization for killing a manNo, I said it was purportedly Nephi's rationalization.
You cant tell me that the Lord couldnt command Nephi to do can you? If you do arent you limiting the Lord's power?Can God Lie? Can God Sin? Can God command someone to sin without also sinning himself? Pretty deep doctrine questions.
"And, unfortunately, the murder of Laban is one of the murders that a lot of Anti's use as evidence that Joseph Smith was a proponent of violence."
I recommend anyone who is interested in this subject to first read 1st Nephi Chapter 4 (http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/4). Afterwards, read "Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban" from FARMS (http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=7&previous=L3B1YmxpY2F0aW9ucy9ib29rb2Ztb3Jtb252aWV3LnBocA==)
And the fact that you're posting on a lame thread makes you even lamer. Zing!
-The Shark
I'm sorry, i couldn't help it, i just have something to say to DTMSPHIL. I am asking you nicely to stop wasting your time slamming on the LDS church. No one REALLY cares what you say. What do you hope to acoomplish by doing such things? Because all your doing now is wasting your time. Have a nice day =)
shareSo I'm right so far... These boards really do just attract people who want to argue.
Not all of this is bad, though. I think the civilized exchanging of beliefs and ideas is an awesome idea because it promotes understanding and unity, as long as it doesn't turn into bashing and attacking. Whenever either side turns into pointless lashing out and finger pointing, that is when things turn silly and lame. Who is honestly going to change their lives because they were told how dumb they are? Nobody is. The best way to help someone see how your beliefs can impact them is to live those beliefs and help them understand them without biting their head off.
-The Shark
These boards really do just attract people who want to argueWere you surprised? That's exactly what the primitive Internet was all about. What fun would there be in everybody all sharing the exact same opinions about things like this? It would be so much better, though, if people would be more respectful of other people's opinions, and if everybody thought enough ahead about what they were writing to include support for any potentially inflamatory statements.
Sorry about my post not making sense. I wasn't feeling well, and I am not very lucid at the best of times. What I meant was that given the hostility many people feel against the Church (CoJCoLDS), when a few members engage in illegal behavior, it automatically becomes the whole Church's fault and indicative of how "evil" the Church is. Frankly, I get an entire different flavor from reading news stories of child molestation by leaders in the Catholic Church. There the issue is rightly left with the individual and perhaps his immediate supervisors (if they did anything that allowed furtherance of the abuse.) I have never read that the Catholic Church is a "sanctuary for pedophiles" for example.
This also comes up with dealing with violent religious fundamentalism. If you asked most people post (and even pre) 9/11 what religious denomination had the most trouble with its members engaging in violence in the name of that religion, I daresay the number one answer would be Islam. But no, not after the media blitz accompanied "Under the Banner of Heaven" a rather innacurate tale of evil Mormon fanaticists. Made me feel that Mormon fundamentalists (a term I dispute anyhow) were just steps away from hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings, so imminent was the threat.
If the BTK killer had been Mormon, I guarantee you that fact would have been blasted over the airwaves. I know that he was active in a church, but I honestly cannot tell you the denomination. I don't remember it being mentioned. But if he had been Mormon, it would have been automatic to link it to any mention of him. "Accused BTK serial killer Dennis Rader, a devout Mormon..."
Goes with the territory, I suppose....
If you asked most people post (and even pre) 9/11 what religious denomination had the most trouble with its members engaging in violence in the name of that religion, I daresay the number one answer would be Islam. But no,And, from my studies of Islam, they'd be right by not naming Islam as a religious denominaion.
You're just sitting back and enjoying this, aren't you Shark?
shareMy .02 are this...I don't have a problem with Mormons. I have a big personal problem with Mormonism. I feel that this is a big modern day cult. A few reasons (of many)...
The huge battles and cities the book of mormon teaches of...where is any evidence of this ever happening? It would be easy for someone with an LDS background to doctor something up for other mormons to look at to ease minds. The truth is that these events never took place. Another thing to mention is the fact that Gordon Hinkley stated in an LDS conference that Mormons do not believe in Jesus of the bible...but rather the Jesus in the BoM. Another sign of a red flag is the very definition of a prophet. In D&C 84, 1-5, it states Joseph Smith would build a temple in Missouri during his time...never happened. By rule, this would negate anything else he says claiming to be a prophet of God. Another thing that absolutely disgusts me is this...Brigham Young stated in the Journal of Discourses Vol 7 Page 289 "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."...wow! In John 14:6, Jesus states "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me you would know my Father as well." If you truly believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God then how can you possibly believe that Joseph Smith has authority of equality with Jesus or above Jesus. That's the huge problem with the LDS church. When you exhalt man higher than he deserves and lower Christ down to the level of man, that's playing with fire...that is a classic feature of a cult. We will never be gods...there is only one and will always be only one. You, nor I will ever be a god. If I've offended anyone by writing this...good. It's not a good thing when a member of the LDS church questions their church's background, it's plain frowned upon. Do your own research. And I'm not talking about asking your Bishop at the local ward either. I believe that you should know 100% what you believe and why you believe it. I also believe they do a very good job at teaching what to say in the event that someone questions your beliefs...very sneaky. Just like I know that when a couple of bike ridin' guys show up at my door, they will, at least twice, tell me that the LDS church is true...simply trained to say that at the MTC. The LDS church doesn't stand up to the tests... I'm not attacking mormons. I just believe you are being soooo mislead and it's a very sad thing. Just because someone tells you that that LDS church is true, doesn't mean you have to believe them. Take the time and find out what your church really believes....what they REALLY believe.
How about equal opportunity bashing... theres plenty to *not* believe in both the books... the bible and the BoM. The N.T. was not even written down until 40 yrs after any execution of Jesus. Too much time to take any of it as fact. Then the BoM written in 18?? whatever ... and no evidence of any of the events and places ever happening or exsisting. Takes too much faith to believe in either.
The fact is there are good and bad people on both sides of the fence here. Religion never *made* someone a good person and its insulting to constantly here from christians(Both Trad. and Mormon) that good things are a blessing from god! Damnit! When I do something good, it's because *I* did it!! not some devine influence! Being Atheist does not make someone evil and being Christain/Mormon does not make one good, no matter how *hard* you will it to be. Some people justify too much in the name of their religion.
Both sides should start asking real questions to themselves. If there really is a god... and I personally don't think its possible... why would it leave out whole populations of people and only reveal 'the truth' to a select few(or one).
wake up
Truth is available to EVERYONE who *wants* to find it. Seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you.
You need to have a desire to believe, and that takes faith. Its easier without believing...and I know that from personal experience. I tried very hard to be an Atheist. Your comments actually remind me of Laman & Lemuel in the Book of Mormon, as they said that the gospel was a "hard thing" for them.
Having faith is a difficult challenge because you have to want it. But that's the point. It isn't easy...because it requires humility. You have to have humility to be able to seek, and you have to have a desire to believe to knock.
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
dboling02,
just to make a comment on your "revealing to select few"...
The Bible can't be something you just heard of yesterday. All you have to do is not harden your heart against it and put faith in what Jesus says is real. You can challenge, test, whatever word you want to about the Bible. The fact of the matter is, you can't prove it false. It's never been done...by scholars, scientists and everyday people that try and disprove it. If you do...you'll be the first of millions who've tried. Let me know how that journey works out...but I'll save you time and tell you that you won't be able to do it. If you don't believe in God or Jesus (which is the same person by the way LDS church), that's fine, don't believe. It doesn't change the fact that what he says he will do...will happen.
On the same note...do the same with the BoM. It's actually quite easy to disprove and has been done several times. It's just unfortunate and sad that people have been mislead.
Dude rapture you really dont know what you are talking about. Do some research sometime and look at the cultures that pre-date the Mayans and Incas. If you really want to learn about them i can find some "proof". However your flawed thinking is that you need to prove the Bible or BofM when in reality just ask God. DOnt you think he would know what is true. You show me anywhere in the book of mormon that contradicts what is taught in the Bible. Try it, you wont find anything. About the God thing what about in Genesis 3:5 that says, "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Why is gods plural not god? Anyway, people like you claim to be an authority on the LDS church and you probably really dont know that much. That would be like me telling you what the Catholics believe. Maybe ask someone who knows about the Book of Mormon to tell you why it is true. Or better yet let God tell you. That is what I did, so no matter what someone like you says, I will listen to Him.
shareHey Rap...
I believe in God the Heavenly Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost...they are three seperate individuals.
Now, if you are refering to Jehovah being Christ...that's true, but we are not the only religion that believes such, either.
There is just as much lacking evidence for the Bible as there is the Book of Mormon. Its a requirement to have faith in each case, its just that the Bible has been around for a heck of a lot longer. You can't imagine that in 150 AD, Christianity was well abound and there wasn't criticism agains accepting the New Testiment.
I'll tell you what...when we're kickin' it up in the Spirit World hundreds of years from now (if we're not all resurrected by then)...let's share a tasty beverage together and peer down at earth and see how the Book of Mormon is accepted at that time.
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
"It's just unfortunate and sad that people have been mislead."
Yes, it is sad. May I politely suggest from reading your contributions to this thread that it is possible that you have been mislead?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml go to this website or one like it and look at your "proof."
shareYes, a leap of faith is needed to come to Christ. It's very hard to understand and fathom the idea of God at first. When I mentioned about being able to prove it, I did not say being able to prove it correct. I said being able to prove it to be false. Being able to prove the conversations is just like me asking your to prove a conversation you had yesterday with somebody...it's impossible. However, there isn't any reasons for me not to believe they really happened. Structurally, historically, agriculturally, etc...the BoM fails miserably. Huge civilizations don't just completely vanish. There should be structures, weapons found, bodies (skeletons) found due to wars the BoM teaches. They don't find them. DNA proves against it. I've listened to LDS scholars even say nothing has been found. This is just one point. If you are going to put your faith into something...you should believe 100% of it, not 67%, 83%, etc... it's an eternal decision. Your website link is what I commented on earlier, just a bunch of excuses for Mormons written by a Mormon. Why don't you address the comments I mentioned in my first post? To say I don't know what I'm talking about, I must be a Mormon basher and etc...I was baptized into the LDS church some time ago. The difference is that I asked questions (which they didn't like) and realized they aren't "true". I'm not going to be a part of something for the sake of being part of it or because my parents said it's "true". I know I'm not going to change your minds just from a web site thread for a Mormon movie. And on the other hand, nor will you change me. You do however, owe it to yourself to fully know how your religion was founded and all the history of it. Don't let someone just tell you what you should believe. If you ask your Bishop, he's just going to tell you what you should hear according to the LDS faith. Again, I'm not against Mormons. I love every person I meet. Just have an open mind and allow some questions to be answered. I find all too often that Mormons shut down any and all "challenges" to what they believe. If someone gets close to touching a nerve, having them view or read something, they shut down communication as quickly as possible...which I believe is trained at church. If the LDS is 100% true, it shouldn't have any such problems open for debate or discussion.
shareAt least we agree on the main point and that is faith is what is really needed in order to know the truth. Yes there are claims that there isnt proof to the Book of Mormon, but there are also things that seem to fit. Such as the findings of horse and elephant bones dating to before Columbus. The practice of writing on metal plates and stone boxes. There are many things that fit with what the Book of Mormon teaches. I can find many findings for and also many findings against. But for me men's logic and knowledge isnt perfect and we really dont know as much as we think we do. My point is you havent shown me where the important aspects of the Book of Mormon are false and those being docrinally. I have studied the Bible and the Book of Mormon and both are wonderful resources for how we can find happiness during this life. They both teach of a loving Heavenly Father who cares what happens to us and they both teach that Jesus Christ is the only Savior and way for us to return to their presence. I know many people who have joined the church and then fallen away my mother-in-law being one. They are not bad people and at least she is better than most members I have met. You haven't bashed Mormons, but many self proclaimed "Christians" do. I think it is equally wrong for Mormons to bash other's beliefs. I can sometimes get angry and feel hurt and lash back at times but that isnt right either. My point is just as you said that neither one of us will or can change eachother's way of thinking on the interenet. If we could then we really didnt know that much about what we believe. For me, yes my parents were members and as a child I believed because that was all I knew. But since then I have questioned many things and searched deeply in the scriptures to find my answers. I cannot deny the Holdy Ghost's promptings through prayer that I belong to the true Church. Others can believe and should believe the same thing otherwise why belong to any church if you do not know it to be true. I just wish Christians were actually Christlike to everyone and not bash eachother so much. Imagine how much more good could be done if we focused our efforts on helping each other be better. I guess that is about all I have to say and I appreciate your politeness and for not bashing my beliefs.
sharenosyrb,
I do agree that many "proclaimed Christians" bash Mormons. I also believe that there are several people from all walks of faith that behave against how they should...one being acceptance of others.
http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html
This is a link from a statement from the Smithsonian Institute. You can choose to read it if you'd like, but you don't have to. This is their position on the Book of Mormon as far as archeology is concerned. As you know, the SI is not biased one way or the other...being pro/non Mormon or pro/non Christian. They quite often refer to the Bible in digs. I only present this to you, as I believe you to be a bit misinformed about horses and elephants. Take it as you will.
To go a little further on your statement about "then we really didn't know that much about what we believe". I only meant this...I don't think after you read that or by the time all of us go our separate ways from this thread, you will believe what I'm saying nor will I about your faith. I do believe in the possibility that perhaps those who have posted or just decided to read this rather large thread, will really look at the LDS church a little closer. I respect your position and by no means do I pass judgement on you or anyone of the LDS faith. But, I'm not against stating my position by saying I believe the LDS church to be a modern day cult. I know that won't be a very popular opinion and I'm sorry if that upset you, but when you look at it from outside the LDS church and Biblically speaking...it's hard to classify it otherwise.
nosyrb,
Earlier, you had stated that I could not find a contradiction from the Bible and the Book of Mormon. You are correct that I couldn't find one...I did however find quite a few. I forgot that you mentioned this, and I wanted to point this out to you. Again...read this and take it as you will. This is a link that will show direct contradictions. Verses taken from the both.
http://www.mormonchallenge.com/ref_biblecontra.htm
This link will take you to a site developed to reach out to Mormons. If you decide to look at this and read it... you may find some of it offensive to your beliefs. I encourage you to take a look at it as it does look at the LDS church from a Biblical view and the differences we have. You don't have to...as I know it's difficult for those who hold the LDS faith very dear to them, as I believe you do.
"This is a link from a statement from the Smithsonian Institute. You can choose to read it if you'd like, but you don't have to. This is their position on the Book of Mormon as far as archeology is concerned."
This document is no longer found on the Smithsonian Institute website. Nor is the one about the Bible and archeology which basically said the samething. Funny how people will talk about how the Smithsonian "proves" the BofM is not true, but forget to tell you that they said the samething about the Bible....
In regards to horses and elephants... there has been bones of horses and elephants found in ancient America... but let's forget about those for a minute. Is it not possible that they found animals that remind them of horses and elephants and choose to call them horses and elephants? If you don't think that's possible, got look at a Buffalo in North America.
I think you need to take the time to look up the defination of "cult".
This is the WikiPedia definiation * Cult (from Latin cultus "care, cultivation, worship") HAS THE PRIMARY MEANING OF "WORSHIP", specifically "liturgy", or "rite". See Cult (religion).
* in popular usage, a Cult describes people that are in a group - generally a religious group - working together for a cause.
If this is what it means to be a "cult" then I as a Member if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints am proud to be in a "cult". If it means that my religon is a group of people working together for a cause then, I have to say that is true. We are a delighsome people who work to better the world by spreading the gospel(by definition "good news"), helping the sick and afflicted, and working to love all people as Christ loved all people. And I have to say, although many people do not believe what we teach, I know from experence that, if lived fully with love and faith, the teachings of my church will make you happier then you could ever imagine. I think that is really the point. I think the reason people of my church fight so hard for it's good name, is that when you love something, and it makes you happy, you want to share it and you want it to be right. That is the bottom line of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Live it and you will be Happy. If you can find the same level of happieness from any other source, then embrace it and live it. But don't bash this true, loving, and full gospel, untill you have given it every thing you have, you have read the book, lived the teachings and prayed with your whole heart to know if it is true. Untill then you have not taken the time or the effort to find the happieness that is promised in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
BTW: I loved this movie. It was a good visual of what I have studied all my life.
Just thougth I would add a little to this conversation.
The two words, "cult and occult," sound similar. But while different, they both pose a similar spiritual threat to people by appearing to be something they are not. Both can cause its victims to miss God's loving and free provision for their lives through Christ, and cause them to face a tragic, Christless eternity. There are many nice, friendly and caring people in the cults and the occult. God loves them, so much that Christ died for them. They are not our enemy. Our enemy is Satan and his deceiving spirits.
Cults
In popular usage, "cults" are religious groups predicted by the Bible (2 Peter 2:1) that deviate from the central, historic truths of biblical Christianity and God's revelation in Christ. Some cults are offshoots of ancient pagan religions, have no similarity to Christianity, and are easy to identify. Others falsely try to imitate Christianity, often using the Bible and Christian terminology, and are more difficult to distinguish. These latter cults typically exhibit one or more of the following traits:
1. They may consider Jesus Christ as not equal to God the Father, but something less. But Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9), and Paul said that Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15) The Bible is repeatedly clear that Jesus is deity, and when on the earth, He was God in human form. We can be redeemed from our sins only because God's own perfect blood (in Christ) was shed for our perfect cleansing.
2. They may typically reject the clear biblical revelation of a triune God, sometimes called the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit -- one God, not three, but manifest in three Persons. The Bible refers to all three as Persons, yet One. A mystery, but truth.
3. They may have their own "sacred" book in addition to the Bible. And although they usually deny it, these books conflict with and are given precedence over the Bible.
4. They typically reject the wonderful biblical truth that salvation is a "free gift" from God by grace through faith alone (this truth glorifies God and not man). Instead, cults and all other "religions" falsely say that people must "earn" their salvation by certain works and deeds, often works that will perpetuate the cult (this glorifies man rather than God).
5. Cults are often exclusive, centering around a strong leader (or late founder) who has the only "true" interpretation of Scripture. Whereas Christ came to give us freedom, (Galatians 5:1), cult members are in bondage to that cult or leader, with the threat that leaving the cult will cause a loss of salvation.
Thousands of these cults exist, but here are some major ones listed in most cult reference books: Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, The Unity School of Christianity, The Way International, The Children of God, Scientology, The Unification Church, Unitarianism and the New Age Movement (which is also occult).
If involved in any cult, run -- don't walk -- to the nearest exit, and find a Christ-centered, Bible- believing church. Also, apply the four-step process below.
References. There are many excellent books available on cults. Four are: The Kingdom of the Cults, by Dr. Walter R. Martin; The Deceivers, by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart; Cult Watch, by Dr. John Ankerberg and John Weldon; and Larson's New Book of Cults, by Bob Larson.
Ah...there is a problem. I went to Wikipedia and this is what I got...I think you where a little selective on what you put in your post.
(I am copy and pasting...I am not editing this ok)
In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream. Its separate status may come about either due to its novel belief system, because of its idiosyncratic practices or because it opposes the interests of the mainstream culture. Other non-religious groups may also display cult-like characteristics.
Definition of "cult" in dictionaries
The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different meanings of the word "cult"32.
formal religious veneration
a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents;
a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents;
a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator;
great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book).
The Random House Unabridged Dictionary definitions are:
a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
the object of such devotion;
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
the members of such a religion or sect;
any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
Well, hey...Rap...
I've questioned many of the same things. I've done my investigating. But I have experienced a change in my life since joining the church that I cannot deny the fruits thereof. I have been frustrated many times with church history, or with problems with other members. I have flirted with inactivity quite a bit. But for me "Sweet is the Peace the Gospel Brings."
It seems like you have some incorrect perceptions of the church.
If someone gets close to touching a nerve, having them view or read something, they shut down communication as quickly as possible...which I believe is trained at church.I have received no such training. True, there are some tough questions out there...but you have to know where to go for the answers by asking God.
Todd,
I definitely respect you and your comments. As stated before, I have not one single problem with persons who are of the LDS faith. I do, however believe that Jesus was clear about everything he said. One of them being not adding to the Bible. It took me over 25 years to give my life fully to Christ and I'm loving every bit of it. For me, understanding and learning more of His word, I just can't understand why the LDS faith feels it needs to have the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants (spelling?) and the Pearl of Great Price as part of their teachings when it was clearly stated to not add to the Bible. I firmly believe the Bible is complete. Do I think I am wiser for asking the previous questions...no. I didn't claim to be wiser than the next. However, they can't be ignored. I'm not claiming to know everything about the LDS church nor do I claim to be a Bible scholar. I do know that I could find out answers to any question about the Bible that are Biblical. I can't imagine finding answers to satisfy or support questions concerning the LDS church.
As far as my quote you mentioned...that has been my experience almost 100% of the time. I don't know where you live, but I can't imagine more LDS people living outside the area I do. What I'm saying is I have daily contact everyday with people within the LDS church. If a discussion arises, they will seem interested, participate...then quickly shy away if anything contradicts the Book of Mormon.
Well, that sucks that you don't have people around you that can participate in an honest, even if difficult, discussion of the Book of Mormon. I wonder if such reactions are more in line with people who lack tolerance, compassion, understanding...and probably knowledge of things outside the LDS frame of mind.
I live in Arizona, and run into a lot of similar issues down here. I mean hey, I'm a Mormon Democrat...not everyone loves me!!
In the site you mentioned above, which I visited, Some of those things are half truths.
In regard to the Bible being complete, I think that it is not. With citing how no one is to add or take away from the Bible, I should mention that is referring to the individual books, and/or...testimonies of people and not literal to mean that no one else can have, write, or publish additional testimonies. For example, the oft cited "THE END OF THE PROPHETS" at the close of Malachi is not even true for the Bible, as the New Testament opens with a Prophet, John the Baptist.
It is stated several times in certain books of the Bible that no one should add to what that person said. But the next page begins a new 'book' in the Bible. It is not meant to be literal.
Secondly, in considering Christ's word, or 'Gospel'...it is also meant that no one is to add or take away. However, as you are probably familiar with, the position of many churches and religious scholars is that the Bible and many churches are incomplete. This was seen during the Reformation with people such as Martin Luther, etc. The current church was seen as incomplete, and everyone made attempts to 'get back to' true Christianity. Through translations in multiple language from many different people, the Bible has been changed and altered.
Go into a local bookstore, like Borders and go check out the MANY different versions of the Bible. Pick up a few and see how drastically they differ from one another. By accident or on purpose many things have been changed. They may be similar, but the wording is different. When the wording is different, the meanings can be lost.
One example, oft cited, is the exchange where the Lord asks Peter if he lovest Him. He asks three times, once each for Peter's thrice denial of the Lord. In the original Greek, a different work for love was used. Forgive me, because I do not know which were used; but each word highlights a different aspect of love. In the King James version, only Love...or actually I believe it says "lovest", is used. Therefore the meaning is diminished.
This is only one minor example I have off the top of my head, but it means volumes to me in speaking to the incomplete nature of the Bible. I believe this is what lead to many different churches understanding scripture so differently. The Bible lead to many different interpretations, and thereby...doctines, that disagree. Would it be God's will to bring about so many variations of His 'Gospel?' Probably not...
Now, true, there have been factions that have broken off from the LDS church as well, but I believe there is 'One' word...and that is obtained by the Bible, The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, and from the mouths of the Prophets. The use of Prophets was constant from Adam to Christ, and through his Disciples. Apostasy took the Prophets into the Dark Ages. Before the end, why would the emergance of Prophets once again be so out of place with the Lord's design?
For me, it makes sense...but even more than that, I believe it to be true.
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
They make Mormon democrats??? That's a first (just teasin')
I see it a little different. For me, I can't see how someone could see two images before him. One being God and another being Jesus. When all those referenced in the Bible dropped to the ground and shouted "Holy, Holy, Holy", not even being able to look at the face of God. I have stated earlier that I believe in what is commonly referred to in the Christian church as the "Trinity". So, for me, I find it a bit odd that J. Smith could possibly see two people and just stare without falling to worship. Another thing is, the word of God doesn't change. If a "prophet" of God is within the LDS church, why would another "prophet" change what a previous said or taught. Could he have been wrong...not if he was a true prophet, because His word is His name and it doesn't change.
Another item is Israel. This is a Biblical place. Still, to this day, the names of cities that are mentioned in the Bible are still the names of most of the places in the Bible (and where they should be geographically). If...the the places in the Book of Mormon really did exist, if Jesus really did come over to the Americas, if the huge battles really did happen, if the huge civilizations really existed...where are they? Where did they go? Why are the names of the places that supposedly existed all changed? There is absolutely zero archeological proof or even a shred of evidence for these events or places ever existing. Reformed Egyptian? Why aren't there any maps for these places?
Now, I admit and know it takes great faith to believe in Jesus (or anything for that matter). But, for me, I can't believe in anything that teaches that I will become a god. Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Jesus is Jesus and God is God...that's it. You, nor I or any other man on this earth (past or present), will ever be a god. I can't put my faith in something that never happened.
I think there are many different organized religions in the world because someone thought they had to do something different in order to follow Jesus. Others used it for personal gain and some where just plain deceived by Satan. Man has always and will always look for answers and it could be that these religions are their answers. I think organized religion in general gets in the way of what's important...having a personal relationship with Jesus. I love Jesus, I talk to Him quite often. And I am sure of it that He hears me.
Sup?
Well, its late...and I really should reply because I'm dead tired...but...
What stuck out to me in your post was:
if the huge civilizations really existed...where are they? Where did they go?That stands as a testimony to me of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. They were told repeatedly they would be wiped off the face of the earth. Secondly, all of the events described in 3 Nephi (earthquakes, floods, etc) drastically changed the face of the earth.
Todd,
I'm in the same situation you were in a couple of days ago...tired and should be in bed.
What eartquakes, floods, etc...do yous speak of? What else did it wipe out? Things just doesn't get erased from existance in this magnitude...really, they don't. This to me...would suggest Mr. Smith is/was making everything up to stand out among his peers and get people to follow...again, cultish. I know it isn't considered a practice among modern day LDS memebers (not talking about the FLDS what so ever...they are just nuts and I'm sure you could agree on that), but I speak of polygomy. This was no doubt part of the LDS church. Where does it mention anywhere in the Bible this is acceptable behavior? This was obvioulsy changed and not practiced in the church anymore. But, what stops the next guy in line to change anything Mr. Hinkley teaches now? If he is a prophet, why would anyone go against what he says...also as a prophet (if that makes sense). Also, letting African Americans into the priesthood? This was pretty much a recent addition to the church. Were they not God's children before a "prophet" said to change teachings? Or was it looked at as a negative to the public when trying to recruit future LDS members? They are constantly trying to be viewed as a Christian church...of which prior to trying so hard, they didn't want to be recognized or compared to Christians. This...isn't cool.
Todd, I'm really not attacking you, and I hope you don't feel like I am. The best way I could describe it, is, when you hear of an abused woman staying with her husband after years of beatings because "I know he loves me and is good for me"...they are just blinded and can't see for themselves. The outside world always tells her what's really going on but she can't see it...
Hey, I come back and there's actually a civilized conversation going on here. Thanks for keeping your cool (for the most part), guys. It's much more conducive to developing understanding, which to me is more important than forcing someone to your beliefs.
My two cents (which doesn't really directly address everything that's been discussed) is this: I personally think it's silly how anyone would attempt to use physical evidence to prove or disprove anything religious. One minute a person claims that God is omniscient and that we know nothing compared to his intelligence, and the next he's trying to provide scientific evidence that a book of scripture or a church's claim is false. This is self-contradictory and inconsistent with said person's claims. I believe that when dealing with spiritual matters one must rely entirely on his faith in God and Jesus Christ, knowing that they know how things work much better than we do (I think we can all agree that the knowledge of man is insufficient and changing while that of God is not). In other words: just because one may think a civilization couldn't have existed since there aren't enough bones or ancient temples discovered by man, does that mean that all other possibilities are counted out? Is God always going to leave everything laid out nice and pretty for us to find, or is it possible that he's done something else with that evidence and we can't even fathom what that might be? The point of this is to place your trust in Christ. Faith in him is the only way the truth of anything can be made known through his holy spirit. Relying on our own knowledge will always leave us narrow-minded and lacking.
And while I am LDS, I must admit that this applies to members of my own faith as well. I think it's nice that we can find ancient civilizations that support the Book of Mormon, but we should not use this as a crutch for our own testimonies of the truth of Christ because ultimately there will be physical flaws according to the intelligence of man. We must rely on Christ alone for the knowledge of the book's truthfulness.
Again, this applies to everything, not just the Book of Mormon: the Bible, prophets, etc.
-The Shark
P.S. I don't mean to be offensive or attack anyone, this is just how I feel about it.
Check out http://www.thesharkbyte.com for some entertaining amateur films I've produced.
Hey Shark...welcome back to the conversation!
I like what you have to say about faith, and that's really my point anyways. I agree with directing that statement to current members as well. I am not one to fall all over the 'Meso America' theory for one. For me, when a prophet says it was north america...I'm good with that. (I'm speaking to the incident during Zion's Camp when Smith said they were traveling through a land that had seen terrible battle between the Nephites and Lamanites.
As Smith, Rap...It struck me the other day that people still claim Joseph Smith to be a fraud in that he was trying to set up a cult of followers. Well...the man's been dead for 160 years, plus. The church has seen its greatest growth only in the last, what 50-30 years? 12 million and counting is pretty dang big to still be a cult, I think.
But speaking as a member...Cult or Not...I am focused on worshiping Heavenly Father and trying to be a righteous disciple of Christ. (Although somedays I do a much better job than others.)
As for poligamy...whose a scriptorian here?
With the extension of the Priesthood to all worthy males, I think it was time that the people in America were ready to accept colored leaders in front of white congregations. This event was made possible by the civil rights movement a decade later. After the dust settles was a perfect time to extend that to everyone. There are probably nearly as many members of the church who are white as their are non-white. (Okay...not being racist...just descriptive) I think it is actually a question for someone of a different race and color to answer.
But for me...none of this is a big deal. I ganied a very powerful of the Book of Mormon, and reinforced it through prayer. With that came an ever-growing testimony of Joseph Smith. That testimony is still growing the more I learn of him. Aside from my testimony...which I something so abstract, I can't begin to share with you...what I can say is the happiest I am in my life is when I strive to follow the counsel of the Church and strive to abide by the teachings of the Book of Mormon.
No one can deny these things to me. Small points of doctrine that raise questions, I investigate...and come to a resolution that satisfies the question for me. For others they may be reasons to not believe...but my faith in God, Christ, the Book of Mormon as true scripture...and my knowlege and experience with the restored priesthood...and having Prophets and Apostles on the earth...leaves me without question.
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
Shark...am I "said person"? I'm guessing I am. If so, how did I contradict myself? I was looking at my previous posts and don't see it. I could be wrong, but like I said...I don't see it.
shareShark,
Looking and reading your most recent post again...no, everything doesn't have to be laid out all nice and pretty. But, something...anything would be nice to see to give the BoM some credit. I don't know where you live, but where I do, anyone from the Temples and offices building dodge this question and have admitted nothing has ever been found.
This is going to sound rediculous, but just hear me out. What if I decided to make such a grand story up saying I was a prophet of God. Some nice feel good messages and maybe a few things that don't sound like the word of God, but because I say I'm a living prophet of God...you believe me. I'll throw in some quality values even to tempt my peers into following me. I'm doing so well with this, I'll say I've seen God AND Jesus. I'm still a prophet of God, so if I say I'm going to do something, it shall pass. But, come to find out...my own prophecies about myself don't come true. I'll write down some things in a book that will later contradict my earlier writings. I'll also write down in my book some things about species, agricultural things that many years later are disproved. But, that's ok...I'm still a prophet of God. I'm still not done with how great I am, but would you believe me and follow me so far?
Now, I know you know where I'm going with this. You shouldn't have to pray about the BoM and see if it speaks to you to tell you if it's true. If it was the word of God, it's true. No praying about it is needed.
It's a little strange and a little sad that the LDS members here where I'm at and what I've read on this board say the same thing, basically word for word. It's like bearing your testimony is the defense of the LDS church. That has to be trained in church, for sooo many to say the SAME thing over and over.
Jesus and Satan are not brothers...to say this a plain and simple blasphemy.
Baptism for the dead? This practice isn't even Christian...Baptism for the dead is done by those outside of Christianity, since the Apostle Paul made a contrast between what "they" do and what "we" do. Paul said that even those who do baptism for the dead believe in the resurrection. How much more should we, who don't baptize for the dead and are led by apostles who were eyewitnesses of Christ's resurrection, believe in the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:29-30).
Jesus has always been God. He didn't need to become one. Jesus has always been the only God there is along with the Father and Holy Ghost. (Isa. 44:10 and Mt. 28:19).
God has always been just that. He is in no way an exalted man. To lower the diety of Christy down to our level, is plain foolishness. He didn't need to do anything special to earn that status.
J. Smith made at least two key prophecies that didn't happen. Pretty much revealing him being a false prophet.
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses 10:110) Stated by another "prophet", B. Young. Always be so...hmmmm
I don't have any doubt that a lot of the people in the LDS church love Jesus. But, what Jesus do you love? Gordon B. Hinkley stated himself that LDS members do believe in a different Jesus than the Bible Jesus. I'm not making this up. This was at an LDS conference. I've heard it. This is not some guy sitting next to you on Sunday...this is the "prophet" stating this. So, if Mormons are now trying to portray a more Christian-like approach, how do they explain not believing in the Jesus of the Bible? Again, I don't doubt you and Todd love Jesus. But, you should know what Jesus is real and which one isn't.
You may throw this into the traditional "Mormon bashing" category that exists when key differences are pointed out. I'm not doing that...only pointing out the obvious...
To comment on something else...I don't get offended by anything mentioned. The Bible stands on it's own...nothing else is needed.
This is a question I do have. I'm sincerely wondering this...does the LDS teach about prophecy? If so (again, I don't know if they do or don't), what are they saying about the end times? Russia now siding with Iran (Biblical prophecy)? Israel in general? What are your own opinions?
I'm curious why you want to know what is prophisied about the end times if you don't believe in the prophets anyways.
As for many of us saying the same thing over and over...I don't know what to tell you. What I said earlier came from my heart and it is what I feel. I have not been instructed to say anything like that...they are my words. If many members of the church say the same or similar things, I would more readily say that has more to do with the spirit of God rather than church instruction.
The church is too big and diversified to have such a strong standard of 'brainwashing,' or whatever you are alluding to.
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
Todd,
Ok, I respect you and your comments. Let me say that this is my personal experience about how LDS memebers comment...bearing testimonies. 100% go to that when simple questions are asked or they just turn and walk, when answers can't be found that aren't pulled out of the air. I'm also going to say I live where there are more Mormons than anywhere else on this planet. So, "brainwashing" is a possibility how I see it.
You can't answer these questions, because if you did, you would see the LDS church isn't the "true" church or anywhere close.
I asked about prophecy, because it excites me that this could be the end times we are all living in. I do believe that we will see Jesus again very soon. It could be next week or in 25 years... who knows. But, if current events are what the Bible speaks of...it's almost done. I was simply curious on what you thought. I wasn't going to debate your opinion on this.
Well, I hate to break it to you...but the answers to the LDS faith are spiritual. You are simply not willing to seek out spiritual answers to these questions through prayer and fasting. That is the bottom line. This is a religion...religion is predicated upon faith. The answers all come from Moroni's promise in the Book of Mormon. You are to pray in faith, asking with a sincere heart, desiring to know the truth. That is why the answers result, in the end, to testimony.
As for prophecy regarding the last days, there is an excellent website that has compiled much regarding this topic at www.ldslastdays.com
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
I should also note...that its not out of a desire to avoid difficult questions...I just don't have the time to research every possible criticism personally. I wish I did, but I don't. For me the answer is much simpler.
Might I also suggest www.fairlds.com for some answers as well.
-Todd
www.toddlbauerle.com
Raptured,
You claim in an earlier post or state that LDS people bear testimony when faced with "hard" questions. It also seems you are inferring that that is somehow inferior to your reasoning and/or a convenient way of getting out of debate.
You also "quoted" some prophecies by early LDS presidents Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Todd hit the nail on the head when he essentially said that the LDS church is religiously based and therefore based on spirit and faith.
It is apparent to me by your comments that you have been introduced, exposed and bought into thousands of words (at least hundreds) of publications, philosophies with the aim of tearing down the LDS church and its doctrine, also referred to as "Anti-Mormon" literature.
Perhaps, as you say, we don't believe in the same Jesus, but yet the truth remains that there is only one Jesus of Nazareth who ever walked the earth. He is the Only Begotten of God the Father in the flesh, who under God the Father's direction, as Executor, created this earth, numberless worlds, was born to Mary in a manger, preached to learned men in the temple at the age of twelve during the Passover feast one year, begin his organized mortal ministry around age 30, was falsely accused by his own people, arraigned before the Sanhedrin, pitied by Pontius Pilate who carried out the wishes of the Jews who did not recognize him as their Messiah, wrought the perfect and matchless atonement to redeem men from physical and spiritual death, died on Calvary's cross and resurrected, appearing first to Mary near the garden tomb and then appeared to many others before ascending to his Father. Prior to and since then he has appeared face to face with prophets who have communicated his will (which is really his Father's will) to mankind via the written and spoken word. He will come to reign personally upon the earth at some future time when the earth will be baptized with fire to follow up the baptism of the earth with water which happened at the time of Noah's flood. The earth will be cleansed by this fire and be change to a paradisiacal state where those worthy of its glory will be able to dwell.
You may refer to the foregoing summary of Jesus's roles, life, etc. as a testimony, a personal interpretation, dogma, etc.
The greatest and purest knowledge is confirmed by the powers of God.
When does belief/theory/testimony become knowledge/unrefutable fact/unquestionable truth? When someone reasons earthbound/mortal insights of man or when someone yields to the elevated thoughts/heavenly truths of God?
Perhaps the foregoing words have assisted you in your quest for truth and knowledge. But if only if you seek truth with the pure motivation of charity (love for others) instead of love of ideas, things or carnal-mindedness.
Content ratings: Indie films: LDS viewers in mind!
http://ldsreviews4movies.tripod.com
Just to throw in my two cents, why do you believe the Bible? You say it stands alone, but how do you know nobody has changed it from what Jesus actually taught? There are several different translations that have come out in recent years, and how would one say which is the best or correct one? Show me proof that your Bible is the correct translation. The only way to know is to ask God if what is taught is true. He will tell you. The same goes for the Book of Mormon. I read a few of your posts and you misinterpreted and reworded the scripture on Baptism of the dead. Next time quote the scripture without changing what was said and you will see that Baptism for the Dead was practiced in those days as it should be in our day. I too agree that the last days are coming but nobody knows exactly when Jesus will come back and we really dont need to worry about that as long as we are doing what he asked us to do.
share[deleted]
No we dont believe we are of Israelite descent. We believe that we are "adopted" into the House of Israel by our conversion, not that we literally are descended from it. We do call non-Mormons gentiles, that is true. As for the discrimination we have experienced, people wanted to kill the Jews for their religious beliefs, and people have wanted to kill Mormons for ours. So while the scale of our discrimination is vastly smaller than that against the Jews, the parallel can be made.
share[deleted]
At one point or another, all religious groups have experienced persecution to the degree that the Mormons have. Was any single incident committed against Mormons as horrible as that which was done to the Fancher-Baker party by Mormons? No. Maybe Mormons should find another group to self-identify with.You know, you might be right. The parallels do break down quite a bit at that point. That was the most significant incident of that nature in Latter-day Saint history, where a later-repentent renegade Latter-day Saint bishop led the massacre of more than a hundred unarmed men, women, and older children, sparing the younger children, whom that bishop's leaders whisked out of that Bishop's care, and upon the request of the first Federal officer to investigate, regathered those children for the Federal officer to relocate to the homes of each child's next of kin back east. The Jews and the rest of the Tribes of Israel, when they decided they'd had enough wandering and getting chased from place to place to place for forty years in the wilderness, under the leadership of their Chief Judge, Joshua, totally annihlated each and every inhabitant of the cities of Jericho, Ali, Bethel, Beeroth, Gibeon, Aijalon, Gezer, Chephira, Kiriath-Jearim, Makkeda, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, and Debir, sparing none of the men, women, or children at all, with the exception of exactly one household, that of Rahab, who befreinded Joshua's spies when the King of Jericho was searching for them.
The Lost Tribes didn't go to the Americas and become Amerindians. If anything, they are in Armenia, Sothern Italy, and other parts of the world near the middle east. DNA science has shown us that.If you are referring to the same DNA evidence that I've been studying for the past decade, you forgot to mention the most important fact about it: that the ONLY specific-to-Semitic-Tribes DNA indicators is a particular allele to be found, curiously, among the male members of the Kohen/Cohen/Khoheni/Khohanim(etc.) family who, according to all their painstaking genealogies, show that they are a branch of the tribe of Levi.
[deleted]
There is almost nothing to support Mormon theories based on Joseph Smith's yarns.There is so much to their beliefs that just plain depend on faith. But it is also so difficult to disprove their claims based on any kind of evidence, scientific or otherwise. That's why I why I try to redirect as many people who think they can disprove them scientifically to more productive pursuits.
The Mormons have barely been perscuted at all.When comparing them to so many other religious groups, I agree. When comparing them to the Methodists and the Baptists I grew up with, though, I would have to say that the Latter-day Saints have been a lot more persecuted than so many other groups I know of.
For Mormons to point to the Jews as a group that has experienced similar tribulations is moronic, or Moroni-ic, I guess.Clever word associaiton. You'd have to wonder, if Joseph Smith did make this all up, why he would claim that after meeting Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, the next Heavenly messenger was a MORONi!
You're right. Science hasn't completely disproven the LDS version of events, but there is little support for the Mormon version.Acutally, common sense has nothing to do with this. Anything that can be taught is beyond common sense. share
DNA links Amerindians to Asians. DNA also links Southern Italians, Kurds, and Armenians to Sephardic Jews. Common sense would also tell one that these scenarios are much more likely than those which the Mormons like to believe, the one that really only exists in their candycane daydream land.
No we dont believe we are of Israelite descent. We believe that we are "adopted" into the House of Israel by our conversion, not that we literally are descended from it.According to all of the Hebraic traditions I've ever studied, and many of the other traditions I've studied, being adopted into anyone's family is indistinguishable from being directly descended therefrom. So, instead of this being a comparison between apples and oranges, this is like comparing huckleberries to blueberries.
We do call non-Mormons gentiles, that is true.This is one of the big things that I have against mainstream Latter-day Saint culture: their propensity to acquire cool-sounding buzzwords without understanding them and then make incorrect and inappropriate use of them, to the
As for the discrimination we have experienced, people wanted to kill the Jews for their religious beliefs, and people have wanted to kill Mormons for ours.Can you imagine how many fewer Latter-day Saints would have faced persecution by using less-discriminative terms?
[deleted]
Well.. it makes sense that I have no way to disprove your claim to be a Zwingnot, nor do I have any way to disprove your desire to be just as much of a Zwingnot as anybody ever has been.
But, that's exactly what people like Martin Luther claimed to be doing.
And the Maccabees.
And Moses.
In other words, if you were trying to illustrate how the Latter-day Saints can't possibly be what they claim to be, you still have some work to do.
[deleted]
Sorry, Riley, that was a response to Mr78's post from a week or so ago, that i'd missed somehow.
But, don't worry.. I'll get back to more of yours.
[deleted]
Reno? The biggest little city on earth? could be fun. Depending on how far you have to travel to get there. Driving all the way through Nevada to Reno wasn't much fun the last time I did that, but there's a lot to Nevada that can be a lot of fun.
share[deleted]
"Can you imagine how many fewer Latter-day Saints would have faced persecution by using less-discriminative terms?
Everybody I have ever read about who has ever wanted to kill a Mormon has only wanted to kill a Mormon. I have never read about a single person who has ever wanted to kill a Latter-day Saint."
Oh good thanks. I wish we could go back in time and tell those woman who had to trudge barefoot and bleeding across the state of Missouri that if they had just called themselves "Latter-day Saints" everything would have been peachy keen.
This is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard in my life. I always thought it was the fear of the presupposed political bloc voting (and thus political power) of the Saints and their anti-slavery stance in Missouri that led to most of the persecutions in that state. Now you have enlightened us that is was their choice of name. Thanks for that. Of course, "Mormon" is a nickname that others chose for us. We preferred Christians (but of course we arent that) or Latter-day Saints (too long and makes us sound too good.)
You know, I gotta say that although I disagree with a couple of bfc's points, he has done the best job on this thread of being civilized and attempting to create understanding rather than mere bashing. I applaud bfc in his comments and studies and respect his conclusions even though I may somewhat disagree.
That's all I wanted to say, I'm not really in the mood to jump back into the mix.
-The Shark
I wish we could go back in time and tell those woman who had to trudge barefoot and bleeding across the state of Missouri that if they had just called themselves "Latter-day Saints" everything would have been peachy keen.Is it? After Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, where did Emma go?
This is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard in my life.
Not that I really want to jump into this, but I want to just correct a few facts:
Emma remained in Nauvoo until her death in 1879. (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/people/emma_smith.html)
Joseph Smith III did not grow up in Missouri. He lived in Nauvoo until 1866 (age 32) when he moved to Plano, Illinois. He stayed there for 15 years, moving to Lamoni, Iowa in 1881. He finally moved back to Missouri in 1906 (at the age of 73). He died in Missouri in 1914 (at the age of 82.) So, he lived in Missouri from 1838-1839 and from 1906-1914, a total of approximently 9 years, out of 82 years.
In regards to "dozens of law suits" betwen JS3 and BY I have to claim ignorance. I only know of one law suit; the Kirtland Temple Law Suit. That law suit was in the State of Ohio and granted the RLDS Church title of the Kirtland Temple and said that it was the legal successor to the Church setup by Joseph Smith. I'd imagine that the LDS Church was involved in the Temple Lot lawsuit, although I don't know that for sure. However, that was found in favor of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot). The Nauvoo Temple Law Suit was between LDS Church and the Strangite Church. JS3 would have been too young to have been involved with that. BY and Emma Smith had some legal trouble as lot of Church property was in JS2's name. Emma felt it was JS2's property; BY felt it was Church property.
There was a 67 year period from the "Extermination Order" to the time when the RLDS Church moved back to Missouri. I think this helped as a "cooling down" period. However, I do agree with you on the "we-good-them-bad" attitude.
No matter what you believe Joseph Smith still MADE UP THE BOOK OF MORMON!
Investigate for yourself and you'll find there were no witnesses (those who claimed to witness the golden tablets later recanted or said they saw them only in a dream), there were/are no golden tablets and even the language it was said to have been written in didn't ever exist.
I know you mormons are sincere in your belief and sincerity is an admirable trait, but you should seek to realize if your beliefs are true. If the new testament is true then the book of mormon can't be.
No matter what you believe Joseph Smith still MADE UP THE BOOK OF MORMON!If you weren't around, how do you know?
Investigate for yourself and you'll find there were no witnesses (those who claimed to witness the golden tablets later recanted or said they saw them only in a dream)I have been investigating for more than 30 years. I've never seen anything except baseless opinion to support that, whereas I've read a lot of evidence on both sides, pro- and anti- to the contrary of what you just said.
, there were/are no golden tablets and even the language it was said to have been written in didn't ever exist.that's a pretty brash statement for someone to make to someone like me who studies ancient languages for the fun of it, who has seen written languages that look an awful lot like the facsimilies which have purportedly been made of it.
If the new testament is true then the book of mormon can't be.Why do you say that? Why can't they both be true?
Hello SyKosis,
Interesting assertions, to say the least (or most). Investigation for myself? I have. The Book of Mormon is true and was translated by Joseph Smith with the help of heaven. This statement is not merely a wanting or sincere desire to believe but a statement based on the witness of the Holy Spirit to my spirit. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
[deleted]
First, none of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon ever recanted their testimony, even though some of them left the Church (I think it was 6 out of the 11.) This is a fact and you should really get your story straight before you post.
Secondly, I have no idea where you get the idea that the Book of Mormon is false if the New Testament is true. You will have to enlighten us on that one.
here's one example. Jesus told Peter that he was the rock on which He would build his church. Peter built Jesus' church, Joseph Smith built his own.
shareIs it safe for me to assume that you don't believe Joseph Smith's and Oliver Cowdry's story about being visited one day by Peter, James, and John, so that Peter (translational nickname meaning "Rock" in Greek) could instruct Joseph Smith to pick up where the handpicked followers of Peter's, James' and John's day were supposed to go, but after a few generations began to fail and flounder?
Because with that claim, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry appear to have satisfied your claim that Joseph Smith's churh should be built upon the rock of "Peter", but you were probably just not aware of it.
Latter-day Saints, however, believe that the nickname "Peter" did not come because of Peter being the foundation of the chruch, but because Simon Bar-Jonah had been the first of the apostles to utilize the gift of Revelation to learn for himself that Jesus was indeed the Christ and Lord and King, and that he was given that nickname as a reminder that the Church was not to be guided by Simon Bar-Jonah, but by the Lord and King himself, via the true rock, which is Revelation.
Which is why Latter-day Saints also believe that Peter did not choose Linus as his successor, but rather that the Lord had already selected any breathing apostle of his, to take the reins of the entire ministry of the entire world upon Peter's death, with some pretty compelling evidence about how it is that that John received revelation of a very general nature after the death of Peter, is his book of Revelation, which was included in the Bible, whereas nothing about any of Linus' revelations are included. (not to be interpreted as my belief that Linus didn't receive revelation, but simply that if he did, and if he wrote them down, they sure don't appear to have survived the Dioclesian persecution and book-burning of A.D.203-205)
So, Joseph Smith's and Oliver Cowdry's story of being instructed not just by Peter, but also by James and John, serves pretty well to justify the Latter-day Saint claim that their Church is based upon the very same rock that you refer to, regardless of how you chose to interpret the meaning of the words "rock" and "Peter".
you are right, I never heard that one but it seems just as implausible as the other myths of Joseph Smith. Your own explanation for your faith just makes it sound even more likely that you're naively following a man-made doctrine rather than the gospel.
shareHow is being guided by revelation and/or inspiration a man-made doctrine?
shareAt least the LDS faith says where they got authority to baptise and to lead the church from. How about other faiths. Where did they get authority? From seminary? That seems man-made whereas getting the priesthood by those Christ him self annointed seems to be true authority. How is that a man-made doctrine? You make absolutely no sense.
share[deleted]
mohun1066,
Very succint and well-made points...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."--Albert Einstein
"Jesus told Peter that he was the rock on which He would build his church. Peter built Jesus' church, Joseph Smith built his own."
Not exactly. Jesus asked Peter who people said he was and Peter said that he was the Christ. Upon that declaration was the statement made, that he would build the Church by the faith that Peter showed. In the Greek, Peter is rendered Petros which means a stone or rock and the rock he would build the Church on was rendered Petra which means mass of rock. So it was a play on words. He basically said that Peter (and his declaration) represented a small part of the building material (faith) that Jesus would build the Church with, not that Peter himself would build the Church.
This Church fell into apostasy after the deaths of the apostles. Joseph Smith rebuilt the original Church under authority from Jesus.
Oh and thanks for the kind words, Notyour. Not sure how succinct I really am however.
mohun,
well, the comment I replied to was succint. That's what I meant.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."--Albert Einstein
First of all what witnesses saw the original Bible transcripts? Is the Bible made up? And secondly show me anywhere where any of the witnesses recanted what they said. Yes some fell away but none of them ever said that the Golden Plates were never shown to them. Where do you get your made up information from?
share[deleted]
Although all three of the "Three Witnesses", Martin Harris, David Witmer, and Oliver Cowdry wound up leaving the Church and getting excommunicated, and although all three of them were persecuted for years by people trying to get them to recant their claim, the only evidence that I have ever uncoverd to indicate that they might have recanted were newspapers where someone says they heard that someone else said that they heard one of them recant.
In other words, only in the tabloids.
Martin Harris' story is by far the most intriguing.
I don't recall the source of this story, but I believe it was in a newspaper, but it was a story about Martin Harris, a Mormon Seer, who, about ten years after Brigham Young fled out west, had decided to work his way back east, and had wound up in either Kentucky or Tennesee, and where it became known who he was, which made him a local curiosity.
Being an avid drinker, he would gladly tell his story to anybody who would be willing to buy him a drink at the local tavern, and he apparently told his story quite often.
One day, a bunch of people decided to buy him more than his usual drink or two, to see how much his story changed.
They got him plastered and started having fun with him asking him all sorts of whacky questions, leading up to the doozer, which went somewhat like this:
"Now come on Martin, you arn't going to keep telling us that you really believe that you saw an angel who showed you any plates of Gold, are you?"
Martin Harris' answer went something like this: No, I'm not. I don't believe it at all. In fact, I'd like to set the record striaght. I don't really believe it, and I have never really believed it. The whole truth of the story, gentlemen, is that I KNOW it. It is no longer a question of belief, it is a question of knowledge, and I know it and I can't help but know it, because it really did happen."
Both Oliver Cowdry and Martin Harris wound up relocating to Utah, where they remained until they died. John Whitmer didn't, but I have never found any non-tabloidesque sources saying he ever recanted.
WOW...this thing took be two days to read. I am not a Mormon "hater" but I do disagree with the LDS teaching. I have studied both LDS and non-LDS publications. And to tell you the truth...the only consistent thing with LDS is that it is consistently changing.
Examples
The Temple ceremony (both the sealing and also the one..cant remember the name..for when one joins the church)...changed
People of color...Changed (I believe in the 1970's) (this is in reference that Black people could not be in the priesthood.)
Book of Mormons...changed (look at the original copy (there are still a few around) I am not making this up)
I have spent the last 5 years studying and reading all that I could find. My best friend is apart of the church. I work in a department that over half of the people (there are only 20 people total) are mormons. Half of the graduate students are also mormons. I have spoken to them about issues. I don’t nor have I ever hated someone for what they believed...that is not what GOD the Father and Son (one in the same) have taught us to do. We should love the sinner and not the sin. This is a VERY hard concept for one to grasp.
Believe what you want to believe…but when it all comes down to it. If the LDS church is correct then I will be happy in my own kindom (my godhood with my spirit babies and all that jazz) but if I am correct in what I believe……………man, I really hope they are correct, for there sake that is (I know where I am going).
Luckily for me that I believe that the LDS church is directed by a true prophet who has the power and authority to to direct Christ's church and so any changes are only done when revelation has been received. Phew, that was a close one.
By the way, maybe read the New Testament a bit more and you will see that Christ and God are two seperate beings. Cross reference Jehovah of the Old Testament with Christ of the New Testament and you will see that He is the Savior spoken of in both. Why does Christ pray to His Father if He is His Father? Look at Christ's baptism, Voice from Heaven (God the Father) dove (Holy Ghost) and Christ in the water (Jesus Christ the Son and our Savior). I would be glad to list scritpures but have no idea if you believe in them as you failed to use any references in your cute post. I do appreciate your polite attitude and it is refreshing as most non-lds posts on here are pretty mean.
Why would it matter if we were wrong? You said that you hope we are correct for our sake? What does that mean? What are we doing that is so bad that we had better be right or else?
Nosyrb,
First, I was at work…I do not have a Bible nor my BoM or my D&C nor my reference books (both of the Greek and Hebrew translations)…nor anything else with me. So, I apologize for not having my references.
Second, the prophet…lets tackle that one first. I know that you have been told (as all LDS people) that God is continually giving new revelation to their prophet. How do you guard against false teachings? Another question is, if your prophet gave a revelation that differed from church teachings in the past, how do you determine which to follow? The thing is Christians hold their ministers accountable to the Bible. (Galatians 1:7-12 and 1 John 4:1) Also the early Christians compared Paul's teachings with the Old Testament in Acts 17:11-12. With that being said, what is the standard for Mormons? Now you may say "God has promised he will never let the prophet lead us astray." Then why is there provision made in the D&C Sec. 107:81-83 to replace a fallen prophet? Jesus warned about false prophets in Matt. 24:11 and 24. Now you are probably thinking about Amos 3:7 to prove that God will always have a prophet leading the church. However, this is taking the verse out of context. God promised that he would not send judgment without giving a warning first through a prophet….just wanted to clear that up. Another thing is…if only the president of the LDS Church can receive revelation for the church, why are the books of the New Testament written by different people? Even Mormons agree Paul was never the head of the church. Shouldn't the apostles of Mormonism be as authoritative as Paul? Another question I would ask you is, how many false prophecies could a prophet give and still be a true prophet? In Deut. 18:20-22 God declares that all his prophecies must come true. If you (LDS members) don't accept all the doctrines of their prophets and apostles, how does one know which teachings to accept and which ones to reject? Now you are probably saying through prayer. But don't LDS apostles pray before preaching? How can a lay member expect to get greater discernment than those ordained by God? Can you give an example of a doctrine that an LDS prophet or apostles has taught which they can openly reject? Now you may bring up a doctrinal issue like Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrine and you may say that was Young's personal idea and not official doctrine even though he taught it from the pulpit. So, my question would be then what constitutes "official doctrine"? You may say that doctrine must be voted on by the church and canonized. But does that not establish that one of their prophets could give a false revelation? Then couldn't he lead the people astray? Another question I am going to put into the mix is why does the D&C only have four sections by prophets other than Joseph Smith? Why has no revelation been added since 1978? Is God no longer giving revelation to their president as he did in the beginning? Now you may say that LDS prophets still get revelations…well then where they are printed. Why don't they canonize them? Are they approaching a closed canon concept?
Third, the Trinity…LDS teaches a totally different concept of God. So, I would rather focus on the basic nature of God the Father. Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal on some other world, which was ruled by yet another deity. (See Smith's sermon on the nature of God in History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 302-317 [King Follet Sermon]) Each god rose from mortality to immortality and earned the position of a god. He does not surpass the previous god, but is forever under his direction. It is sort of like an eternal pyramid system, or escalator, with each god answering to the one above him. Have you had a chance to read Smith's sermons on God? If Smith's doctrine of God is wrong he falls under the condemnation of Deuteronomy 13, a false prophet leading the people after a false god. So how do you tackle Smith's doctrine of multiple gods with Isaiah 43:10-11 and Isaiah 44:8?
Forth, LDS teaches that in order to gain eternal life (as opposed to merely entering heaven) one must be "worthy." It is achieved after a life of full activity in Mormonism, full tithing, temple marriage, etc. So the questions I have for you are: What is required to achieve eternal life in Mormonism? Have you met all of those requirements? If you died today do you know that you will have eternal life? I would like to point out that I and any other Christian has the assurance of eternal life through faith in Christ, not church activity (1 John 5:13).
Ok…I think I put enough references in this one. You will notice that I did not just use the Bible…I also used the D&C…I told you I read all views.
And …….. Phew, I almost thought I could not answer those questions.
First off, sorry for being rude, I am glad to here you believe in the scriptures and I can tell you study them. That is good. I will quote what you say, that way I can stay on task.
"Second, the prophet…lets tackle that one first. I know that you have been told (as all LDS people) that God is continually giving new revelation to their prophet."
God has done this throughout the Bible...so why is it so hard to believe that he uses this today?
"How do you guard against false teachings?"
By researching what is being taught and then comparing it to the scriptures to make sure it doesnt go against anything there. And most importantly pray and ask God and see what the Spirit says.
"Another question is, if your prophet gave a revelation that differed from church teachings in the past, how do you determine which to follow?"
Whichever is most recent is the will of God. Look at the Law of Moses and what the New Testament teaches of how Christ fulfills that law and gave us a new law. Same principle, do you follow the Law of Moses still?
"The thing is Christians hold their ministers accountable to the Bible. (Galatians 1:7-12 and 1 John 4:1) Also the early Christians compared Paul's teachings with the Old Testament in Acts 17:11-12. With that being said, what is the standard for Mormons?"
That's good I (I'm LDS aka Mormon aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)hold my teachers and leaders to the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and the D&C.
"Now you may say "God has promised he will never let the prophet lead us astray." Then why is there provision made in the D&C Sec. 107:81-83 to replace a fallen prophet? Jesus warned about false prophets in Matt. 24:11 and 24."
One way as the Bible teaches is "by their fruits ye shall know them." Look at what a prophet is saying, if it is in alignment with the teaches we already have then it might be ok. The most important way to know is through personal revelation. God will let you know if it is from Him or not. Same goes for anything really, how do you know the Bible to be true?
"Now you are probably thinking about Amos 3:7 to prove that God will always have a prophet leading the church."
Correct. The Lord reveals his work to his prophets and confirms to believers that the revelations to the prophets are true (Amos 3: 7). Through revelation, the Lord provides individual guidance for every person who seeks it and who has faith, repents, and is obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ.”The Holy Ghost is a revelator,” said Joseph Smith, and “no man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations.
"However, this is taking the verse out of context. God promised that he would not send judgment without giving a warning first through a prophet….just wanted to clear that up."
Can you clear these up too? The Church is built upon the foundation of Apostles and prophets, Eph. 2: 19-20. Apostles and prophets are essential to the Church, Eph. 4: 11-16. Joseph Smith was called to be a seer, prophet, and Apostle, D&C 21: 1-3. We believe in prophets, A of F 1: 6.
"Another thing is…if only the president of the LDS Church can receive revelation for the church, why are the books of the New Testament written by different people?"
Because Christ commanded His apostles to do so. They were acting under His authority. At lest eh Gospels. Then the later books were different letters and such. Kind of like the LDS Ensign. More people can receive revelalion individually and also for those with whom they have stewardship over. A person who takes care of the affairs or property of another. That which a steward cares for is called a stewardship. All things on earth belong to the Lord; we are his stewards. We are accountable to the Lord, but we may report on our stewardship to God’s authorized representatives. When we receive a calling of service from the Lord or his authorized servants, that stewardship may include both spiritual and temporal affairs (D&C 29: 34).
Thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things, Matt. 25: 14-23. Unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required, Luke 12: 48 (D&C 82: 3). Jesus gave the parable of the unjust steward, Luke 16: 1-8. Whoso is found a faithful steward shall enter into the joy of his Lord, D&C 51: 19. Every man is to give an account of his stewardship, D&C 72: 3-5. He that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things, D&C 78: 22. The Lord will make every man accountable as a steward over earthly blessings, D&C 104: 11-17 (D&C 42: 32). Be diligent that thou mayest be a wise steward, D&C 136: 27.
"Even Mormons agree Paul was never the head of the church. Shouldn't the apostles of Mormonism be as authoritative as Paul?"
They are, hence General Conference and the Ensign. The important thing to remember is the importance of authority and where people claim to receive it from. At least the LDS church to have authority direcly given from God. I have numerous references if you would like them but will only include a few. Prov. 29: 2
2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice•: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn•.
Matt. 7: 29
29 For he taught them as one having authority•, and not as the• scribes.Matt. Matt. 21: 23
23 ¶ And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what aauthority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
Mark 1: 22
22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 13: 34
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Ok, that should suffice, there are many more if you would like them. Notice that Christ doesnt teach that by going to Seminary one receives authority, He must call them.
Luke 9: 1
1 THEN he called his atwelve disciples together, and gave them power and bauthority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
So how does this work if there is no prophet to be the mouthpiece for God?
"Another question I would ask you is, how many false prophecies could a prophet give and still be a true prophet? In Deut. 18:20-22 God declares that all his prophecies must come true."
Agreed. But you also must distinguish when a prophet is speaking as a prophet or as a man.
"If you (LDS members) don't accept all the doctrines of their prophets and apostles, how does one know which teachings to accept and which ones to reject?"
You are supposed to accept all true doctrine. If it is from a prophet you must find out if they are all true and if you find that out them to be true then you are accountable to follow them all. But nobody is perfect.
"Now you are probably saying through prayer. But don't LDS apostles pray before preaching?"
Yes. But I need to pray for myself otherwise I am just taking their word for it and I know God is no respector of men and He will tell me personally.
"How can a lay member expect to get greater discernment than those ordained by God?"
You cant, but you are entitled to personal confirmation of any doctrine. You just cant expect to receive new revelation on behalf of the Church. It must come from the one with the proper authority but that doesnt mean you cant find out that it is true from God.
"Can you give an example of a doctrine that an LDS prophet or apostles has taught which they can openly reject?"
Not from my experiences. For me if they taught is as a prophet or apostle and I know it to be true then how can I reject it? I can think of things that are hard such as Chastity, or not having piercings (for men, not really my problem) or tatoos. Things like that are hard for some, and yet they came from the prophet. So we are supposed to follow it. Nobody is going to make anyone though, that's why you see tatoos and piercings on some Mormons.
"Now you may bring up a doctrinal issue like Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrine and you may say that was Young's personal idea and not official doctrine even though he taught it from the pulpit."
He has never taught it as doctrine. That is the key. He may be right, but until it is officially declared as doctrine such as "A proclamation to the world" then it isnt taught as doctrine but is what he thinks.
"So, my question would be then what constitutes "official doctrine"?"
When it is declared and signed by the prophet and apostles such as I mentioned above.
"You may say that doctrine must be voted on by the church and canonized."
Nope, only the prophet and aposltes have to "vote" on it and for that matter only the prophet really has to.
"But does that not establish that one of their prophets could give a false revelation?|"
I suppose it is possible, but so far it hasnt happened. Apostles have fallen away, but a prophet of this church so far hasnt nor will God let him if it really is His church. There will be people who claim that it has happened but I believe that it hasnt. Never has there been any doctrine that I havent been able to find out that it is from God.
"Then couldn't he lead the people astray?"
Sure he could and there have been many Anti-christs in the scriptures. The point is that we can always find out through personal revelation from God whether a prophet is true or not.
"Another question I am going to put into the mix is why does the D&C only have four sections by prophets other than Joseph Smith?"
Because he did a great job in restoring the truth. Why has there been no revelation since the Bible? Where did all the prophets go?
"Why has no revelation been added since 1978?"
That isnt true.
1978, September 30
Revelation granting the priesthood to every worthy male member without regard to race or color sustained by Church (see OD-2).
1979, August
LDS edition of King James Bible with study aids published.
1981, September
New editions of Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price published.
1984, June
Area Presidencies inaugurated, with members called from the Seventies.
1985, November 10
Ezra Taft Benson became President of the Church.
1989, April 1
Second Quorum of the Seventy reorganized.
1994, June 5
Howard W. Hunter became President of the Church.
1995, March 12
Gordon B. Hinckley became President of the Church.
1995, April 1
Position of regional representative discontinued. Announcement of a new leadership position to be known as an Area Authority.
1995, September 23
”The Family: A Proclamation to the World” from the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles was published.
1997, April 5
Area Authorities to be ordained Seventies. Third, Fourth, and Fifth Quorums of the Seventy announced.
1997, October 4
President Hinckley announced the building of smaller temples.
1997, November
Church membership reached 10 million.
1998, April
President Hinckley announced goal of having 100 temples in service by the year 2000.
"Is God no longer giving revelation to their president as he did in the beginning?"
I think I have shown a few examples.
"Now you may say that LDS prophets still get revelations…well then where they are printed. Why don't they canonize them? Are they approaching a closed canon concept?"
Not at all. Read the Ensign. And check out www.lds.org.
"Third, the Trinity…LDS teaches a totally different concept of God. So, I would rather focus on the basic nature of God the Father. Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal on some other world, which was ruled by yet another deity. (See Smith's sermon on the nature of God in History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 302-317 [King Follet Sermon])"
I am not sure if that is taught as doctrine, but it is very interesting, yes?
"Each god rose from mortality to immortality and earned the position of a god. He does not surpass the previous god, but is forever under his direction. It is sort of like an eternal pyramid system, or escalator, with each god answering to the one above him. Have you had a chance to read Smith's sermons on God?"
A little but as it isnt necessarily considered doctrine I havent devled too deeply. From what I have read it didnt seem horrible, but was interesting and I cant say that I know much more than that. I can research it more if you would like.
"If Smith's doctrine of God is wrong he falls under the condemnation of Deuteronomy 13, a false prophet leading the people after a false god. So how do you tackle Smith's doctrine of multiple gods with Isaiah 43:10-11 and Isaiah 44:8?"
Well first of all he never taught it as doctrine. And secondly all that matters to me is that Heveanly Father is my God, His Son Jesus Christ created this earth through His authority and is my Savior. Beyond that, it really doesnt pertain to my salvation and that is why God hasnt revealed all his mysteries as we have a hard enough time with the little He has given us. Here is what I believe God to be.
Mosiah 3: 19
19 For the anatural• bman is an cenemy• to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields• to the enticings of the Holy fSpirit•, and gputteth• off the hnatural• man and becometh a isaint• through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild•, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
D&C 29: 43
43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his aprobation—that by his bnatural• death he might be craised in dimmortality• unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
D&C 127: 2
2 And as for the aperils• which I am called to pass through, they seem but a small thing to me, as the benvy and wrath of man have been my common lot all the days of my life; and for what cause it seems mysterious, unless I was cordained• from before the foundation of the world for some good end, or bad, as you may choose to call it. Judge ye for yourselves. God dknoweth all these things, whether it be good or bad. But nevertheless, deep water is what I am wont to swim in. It all has become a second nature to me; and I feel, like Paul, to glory in etribulation•; for to this day has the God of my fathers delivered me out of them all, and will deliver me from henceforth; for behold, and lo, I shall triumph over all my enemies, for the Lord God hath spoken it.
Moses 1: 11
11 But now mine own eyes have abeheld• God; but not my bnatural•, but my cspiritual• eyes, for my dnatural• eyes could not have ebeheld•; for I should have fwithered• and gdied• in his presence; but his hglory was upon me; and I beheld his iface•, for I was jtransfigured• before him.
Moses 3: 5
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, acreated• all things, of which I have spoken, bspiritually•, before they were cnaturally• upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had dcreated all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the eground•; for in fheaven gcreated I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, Gen. 2: 7 (Moses 3: 7). Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones, Luke 24: 39. I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, 1 Cor. 9: 27. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, 1 Cor. 15: 44. The body without the spirit is dead, James 2: 26. The mortal body will be raised as an immortal body, Alma 11: 43-45. Every part of the body shall be restored, Alma 41: 2. Jesus showed his resurrected body to the Nephites, 3 Ne. 10: 18-19; 11: 13-15. The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also, D&C 130: 22. God created male and female in the image of his own body, Moses 6: 9 (Gen. 9: 6).
Whosoever shall humble himself as this little child is greatest, Matt. 18: 1-4. Believe in the light that ye may be the children of light, John 12: 36. Put off the natural man and become as a child, Mosiah 3: 19; 27: 25-26. Because of the covenant ye shall be called the children of Christ, Mosiah 5: 7. If ye will lay hold upon every good thing, ye certainly will be a child of Christ, Moro. 7: 19. As many as received me, gave I power to become my sons, D&C 39: 4. Fear not, little children, for you are mine, D&C 50: 40-41. Thou art one in me, a son of God, Moses 6: 68.
To organize. God, working through his Son, Jesus Christ, organized the elements in nature to form the earth. Heavenly Father and Jesus created man in their image (Moses 2: 26-27).
God created man in his own image, Gen. 1: 27 (Mosiah 7: 27; D&C 20: 17-18). What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Ps. 8: 4-5. Cursed is the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm, Jer. 17: 5 (2 Ne. 4: 34; 28: 26, 31). When I became a man, I put away childish things, 1 Cor. 13: 11. Men are that they might have joy, 2 Ne. 2: 25. The natural man is an enemy to God, Mosiah 3: 19. What manner of men ought ye to be? 3 Ne. 27: 27. The works of man are frustrated, not the works of God, D&C 3: 3. You should not fear man more than God, D&C 3: 7 (D&C 30: 11; 122: 9). All things are made for the benefit and the use of man, D&C 59: 18. I know that man is nothing, Moses 1: 10. God’s work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, Moses 1: 39.
God the Father: It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because he is the father of our spirits (Mal. 2: 10; Num. 16: 22; 27: 16; Matt. 6: 9; Eph. 4: 6; Heb. 12: 9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18: 14; Alma 26: 35; D&C 19: 1-3), all knowing (Matt. 6: 8; 2 Ne. 2: 24), and everywhere present through his Spirit (Ps. 139: 7-12; D&C 88: 7-13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82: 6; 1 Jn. 3: 1-3; D&C 20: 17-18).
God the Son: The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12: 2; 43: 11; 49: 26; 1 Cor. 10: 1-4; 1 Tim. 1: 1; Rev. 1: 8; 2 Ne. 22: 2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brothers and sisters, for he is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1: 1-3, 10, 14; Heb. 1: 1-2).
In Hebrew and related languages it designates “the divine being.” Many biblical names employ El with other words, such as Bethel (“the house of God”), Eleazar (“God has helped”), Michael (“who is like God”), Daniel (“a judge is God”), Ezekiel (“God will strengthen”), and Israel (“to prevail with God” or perhaps “let God prevail”). Possibly the best known use of El is in Elohim, plural form signifying the “almighty” or “omnipotent,” a name applied to the Father.
If anyone is still reading, the rest of my post will be on the following post.
Nosyrb,
I did not think you where rude in any way. I am sorry it sounding like I thought you where. I did not take any of it wrong. (I look at this conversation as two adults speaking [I think you are an adult] and therefore I am not expecting you to be rude nor vise versa.)
Since you wrote 8 pages worth (in Word that is how much it came out to) I will only touch on a few points. After reading this (not looking up any references that you gave). My first thought is…You contradict a lot of things you say. At one point you say that Apostles and prophets speak the truth…then at another point you state that they are not perfect…then you say that you have to pray about it before you have to except it (or something like that). So, which is it? I don’t follow anything that anyone says except for what is in the Bible (and only the Bible). As for the Old Testament, it states in the New Testament (not sure where) it says that the “the veil has been open (or taken down…not sure on the exact wording)” which mean that we now can have a personal relationship with God and we now follow the New Testament laws. (Ex. We don’t sacrifice lambs anymore…do we??) I have had this discussion with my husband because he brings up stuff all the time that we need to get straightened out. (this is very brief I know).
Now with the entire Smith and prophecy and such. Here are some samples of false prophecies from Smith.
1. Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)
No longer teach the gathering and temple never built.
2. Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)
Mormons driven out.
3. Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103)
Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise.
4. Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)
England and other nations did not join in.
5. United Order (D&C 104)
V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized.
6. Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)
No riches found, debts not paid.
7. Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)
He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?
8. New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)
LDS driven out, never built the temple.
9. Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)
Temple and house not completed.
10. Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)
Christ did not return.
11. US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.)
It doesn't and is not destroyed.
12. Three grand keys to test Messengers (D&C 129)
No known reference where any LDS church leader ever used this test. Does God give meaningless revelations?
I would like to just touch on how to test a prophet (according to the Bible). Frequently I have been asked by LDS member to pray about Joseph Smith's message and the Book of Mormon. But is this the proper way to determine if his message is truly from God? The Bible never says to test a prophet by prayer, but by his message. Deuteronomy 13 warns that a prophet must teach correctly about God. Chapter 18 tells us the prophet's prophecies must come to pass. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even angels can appear with a wrong message. We are to compare the message with the teachings of the apostles. In Acts 17:10-12, when Paul went to Berea to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews, we read "these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed..." Note, Paul did not tell them to go home and pray about it. They were praised for searching the scriptures, in other words, testing the message to see if it agreed with the prophecies of the Messiah.
Note that John made an appeal to fact, not feeling, when he declared "that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;...that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us..." (I John 1:1-3) He continued in the next chapter, verse 21, "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth...let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning...." Chapter 4, verse 1, "beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Peter wrote specifically to warn about false teachers: (2 Peter 1:15-16) "Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty...." In Chapter 2, verse 1, he continues "but there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,...and many shall follow their pernicious ways..." Then in Chapter 3 he continues "this second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandments of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers..." Notice, he refers them to past teachings and facts, not to feelings or prayer.
LDS members misuse James 1:5 (I don’t believe you used it…but I have heard some use it). That verse is for wisdom during times of temptation and persecution, not for knowledge or testing a prophet. He goes on to warn in Chapter 4, verse 3, about those who pray (and we assume it was in Jesus name) for the wrong things--"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss..." This verse shows our own desires or misdirected ideas can play a part in the answer. If someone claimed God said we should rob a bank and give the money to the poor, would we need to pray about it? God has already spoken on the issue in the Ten Commandments. So why should we pray to know if God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith to show him that they are two totally separated gods with resurrected bodies? Or that there were gods BEFORE our heavenly father. (See Smith's sermons in the LDS History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 305-312, 474-476) Compare his sermons with Isa.43:10-11, 44:6-8, 24-25, 45:5-6, 18-24, 46:5-10. Joseph Smith contradicts Isaiah—which one should we believe? Christians test prophets, pastors, and teachers by the Bible. LDS test the Bible by their prophets. They go about testing the message backwards. The Bible was here first, therefore Joseph Smith must be tested by it, not the other way around.
Certainly a decision regarding our eternal life is the most important one we will ever make and deserves careful examination. There are plenty of facts from LDS sources to show that Joseph Smith taught false doctrine, lied about polygamy (even to his own wife), changed his revelations, gave false prophecies, etc. He hardly meets the test of a prophet. Truth will stand up to investigation.
As for Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit being one. The Bible declares that Jesus is fully God, not a subordinate deity. He eternally exists as God and is our creator.
John 1:1-4, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
"Since you wrote 8 pages worth (in Word that is how much it came out to) I will only touch on a few points."
Did you notice the second post? I definately wrote a novel. Sorry. I just love talking about religion I guess. I am glad that you were not offended, I have a tendancy to come across rude or sarcastic and some people I guess are really sensitive to that.
"After reading this (not looking up any references that you gave). My first thought is…You contradict a lot of things you say. At one point you say that Apostles and prophets speak the truth…then at another point you state that they are not perfect…then you say that you have to pray about it before you have to except it (or something like that). So, which is it?"
A prophet is not perfect unless you count Christ among them and then there has been only 1 perfect prophet. Prophets and apostles are imperfect human beings and at times they speak as men and have ideas and their own theories that are not necessarily doctrine. Hence, we much research what is being taught and ask God.
"I don’t follow anything that anyone says except for what is in the Bible (and only the Bible)."
Why? Does God not care or do we not need Him anymore? If you answer yes to eithe question then why wouldnt He use the same means He has always used? We have a lot of different things we encounter daily that the Bible doesnt touch on, so how are we to determine what is right and wrong and how doe we know for sure that is God's will?
"As for the Old Testament, it states in the New Testament (not sure where) it says that the “the veil has been open (or taken down…not sure on the exact wording)” which mean that we now can have a personal relationship with God and we now follow the New Testament laws. (Ex. We don’t sacrifice lambs anymore…do we??) I have had this discussion with my husband because he brings up stuff all the time that we need to get straightened out. (this is very brief I know)."
I believe that was in reference to how Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, and He gave us new laws. It doesnt say that we have all the scripture and all the word of God.
"Now with the entire Smith and prophecy and such. Here are some samples of false prophecies from Smith.
1. Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)
No longer teach the gathering and temple never built."
Not true. We still believe that by the second coming we will have a temple there. Yes, it hasnt been built yet.
"2. Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)
Mormons driven out."
Has it fallen? Is the church weaker now? We have 12 million on record so maybe 6 million or so active, not too shabby considering less than 200 years ago there were only 6. Look at Israel, they were driven out all over the place for years and yet they were God's chosen.
"3. Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103)
Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise."
Or maybe Joseph was unsure. How do you know that God just wanted to see who would be willing to go and never intended them to. Imagine what would have happened had they gone through with it. Tons of inocent lives would have been shed on both sides.
"4. Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)
England and other nations did not join in."
I'm no historian, but maybe they helped fiscally if no other way. Or think of the number of immigrants fighting.
"5. United Order (D&C 104)
V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized."
Because we were not ready for that. How many commandments did Moses first bring out of the mountain? I know it was more than the Ten.
"6. Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)
No riches found, debts not paid."
I have no clue on this one. I'm not even sure I know what this refers to. Here is what the summary says, but I dont get where bad prophecy was.
D&C 111 Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2: 465—466. At this time the leaders of the Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry. Hearing that a large amount of money would be available to them in Salem, the Prophet, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Oliver Cowdery traveled there from Kirtland, Ohio, to investigate this claim, along with preaching the gospel. The brethren transacted several items of church business and did some preaching. When it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming, they returned to Kirtland. Several of the factors prominent in the background are reflected in the wording of this revelation.
1—5, The Lord looks to the temporal needs of his servants; 6—11, He will deal mercifully with Zion and arrange all things for the good of his servants.
"7. Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)
He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?"
Sure, but maybe the guy who shot him had a choice and if he hadnt couldnt Patten have served his mission? Or maybe God wanted to know if Patten would be willing to go? I dont know God's will in all things. I do know that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son and then at the last minute He stopped it. God tests our faith.
"8. New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)
LDS driven out, never built the temple."
Far West This was the largest Mormon settlement in Missouri. A site for a temple was dedicated at this location (see D&C 115). On 8 July 1838, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles received a call from the Lord to serve missions in the British Isles (see D&C 118). A temple site was dedicated and the cornerstones were laid. Seven revelations published in the Doctrine and Covenants were received (sections 113-15; 117-20). Joseph F. Smith, the sixth President of the Church, was born 13 November 1838 in Far West. Far West served briefly as the headquarters of the Church under the Prophet Joseph Smith.
That's about all I can find on that. Maybe a temple will still be built there. I dont think the world is over yet, so who knows.
"9. Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)
Temple and house not completed."
We have a temple in Nauvoo now, so that one is taken care of I guess.
"10. Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)
Christ did not return."
D&C 130: 14-15
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the acoming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let• this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
If you remember Joseph never lived that long, therefore he wouldnt see the second coming. And actually he did she the Lord before then because he was martyred. So that takes care of that one.
"11. US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed (History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.)
It doesn't and is not destroyed."
I think the relationship between the US and the Church is very strong. I know that President Hinckley has met with several and has been honored by Presidents of this great country. Doesnt mean monetary compensation, the church doesnt need money, thanks to tithing and smart investing.
"12. Three grand keys to test Messengers (D&C 129)
No known reference where any LDS church leader ever used this test. Does God give meaningless revelations?"
Have you used it? I have never seen an angel, ghost or whatever, but if I did I would ask to shake it's hand.
"I would like to just touch on how to test a prophet (according to the Bible). Frequently I have been asked by LDS member to pray about Joseph Smith's message and the Book of Mormon. But is this the proper way to determine if his message is truly from God?"
Yes.
"The Bible never says to test a prophet by prayer, but by his message."
Tell me then how you know whether the message if of God? Surely you believe God answers prayers.
"Deuteronomy 13 warns that a prophet must teach correctly about God. Chapter 18 tells us the prophet's prophecies must come to pass."
Does it give a timeline, or exactly how a prophecy must be fulfilled?
"Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even angels can appear with a wrong message."
So why were you early asking why prophets and apostles make mistakes if even angels can?
"We are to compare the message with the teachings of the apostles."
Agreed. Does it say not to pray too?
"In Acts 17:10-12, when Paul went to Berea to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews, we read "these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed..." Note, Paul did not tell them to go home and pray about it. They were praised for searching the scriptures, in other words, testing the message to see if it agreed with the prophecies of the Messiah."
Are you telling me that everyone of those people didnt pray about it? Wow, that's real faith. I for one believe that God will tell me personally if something is true. Maybe I lack faith, but so far it has worked.
"Note that John made an appeal to fact, not feeling, when he declared "that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;...that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us..." (I John 1:1-3) He continued in the next chapter, verse 21, "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth...let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning...." Chapter 4, verse 1, "beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Very good. How about this?
When speaking to the Corinthians, Paul reminds them that he did not preach the gospel to them using "words of wisdom." As he points out, "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek aftger wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;..." 1 Cor. 1:19-23. The "foolishness of is wiser than men," writes Paul, and so God has chosen the weak of the earth to preach the gospel, that no man may lift himself up in pride at his own wisdom.
Conversion does not come through "enticing words of man's wisdom,"--the power of rhetoric in which the Greeks prided themselves--but rather "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but the power of God" ! Cor. 2:4-5. In other words, the Corinthians were not persuaded to believe in Christ through a slick pitch or through logically airtight argumentation. Continuing his attack on rhetoric, Paul writes, "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power" 1 Cor. 4:20.
Knowledge of the truth comes not through rational means, as the Greeks would maintain, but rather through the revelation of the Spirit: "for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but whcih the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor:10-13
The Greek believers should abandon their worship of worldly wisdom: "If any man among you seemeth to be sies in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For wisdome of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men" 1 Cor. 3:18-21. In place of worldly wisdom, the Christian should seek for those sprirtual gifts which can edify the body of Christ, i.e. the Church 1 Cor. 12-14.
God will hold us accountable for the stewardship he has given us over our bodies. These are "temples" through wich we worship him; therefore, sexual impurity and overindulgence of all physical appetites are condemned.
Another important principle that I am trying to live better is found in Romans where Paul tells the Roman saints to live together peaceably, to love on another and to treat one another with equanimity Rom. 12-15. He reminded them, as he did the Corinthians, that the body of Christ has many members, each one possessing a different gift which benefits all other members of the community. Those who would cause divisions are to be avoided, "For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly" Rom. 16:17-18.
This is how I believe we are supposed to teach and uplift. But if we remember to ask the Lord, NO MAN will be able to persuade us and we can know the will of God.
"Peter wrote specifically to warn about false teachers: (2 Peter 1:15-16) "Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty...." In Chapter 2, verse 1, he continues "but there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,...and many shall follow their pernicious ways..." Then in Chapter 3 he continues "this second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandments of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers..." Notice, he refers them to past teachings and facts, not to feelings or prayer."
Careful. Anyone has access to the scriptures and can therefore distort or misinterpret their meaning. Only through personal revelation can we determine whether something is of God.
"LDS members misuse James 1:5 (I don’t believe you used it…but I have heard some use it). That verse is for wisdom during times of temptation and persecution, not for knowledge or testing a prophet."
James 1: 5
5 If• any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth• not; and it shall be given him.
Really? Seems if you lack wisdom, then you should ask God. Very clear in my opinion. So it seems to me that if I dont know something then God will tell me and He wont be mad about my lack of knowledge.
"He goes on to warn in Chapter 4, verse 3, about those who pray (and we assume it was in Jesus name) for the wrong things--"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss..." This verse shows our own desires or misdirected ideas can play a part in the answer."
So I guess I shouldnt ask for 1 million dollars and expect to see it. Has nothing to do with asking for knowledge.
"So why should we pray to know if God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith to show him that they are two totally separated gods with resurrected bodies? Or that there were gods BEFORE our heavenly father."
Because who knows ALL truth? Reread James 1:5 if we lack wisdom let him ask of God who upbraideth not. Read father and you learn to ask in faith and it shall be given him.
"(See Smith's sermons in the LDS History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 305-312, 474-476) Compare his sermons with Isa.43:10-11, 44:6-8, 24-25, 45:5-6, 18-24, 46:5-10. Joseph Smith contradicts Isaiah—which one should we believe?"
I dont see contradictions but I will try to look closer. Maybe that is why asking God would come in handy about now.
"Christians test prophets, pastors, and teachers by the Bible. LDS test the Bible by their prophets. They go about testing the message backwards. The Bible was here first, therefore Joseph Smith must be tested by it, not the other way around."
That was a bit generalized. I bet LDS are more informed than the average "Christian" and know what they believe. We have lots of classes at church and during high school and even college. I believe I am Christian as I believe in Christ and yet "Christians" dont want me to be called that, why?
"Certainly a decision regarding our eternal life is the most important one we will ever make and deserves careful examination. There are plenty of facts from LDS sources to show that Joseph Smith taught false doctrine, lied about polygamy (even to his own wife), changed his revelations, gave false prophecies, etc. He hardly meets the test of a prophet. Truth will stand up to investigation."
Read my part on evidence again. We arent as wise as we think. I dont agree with your "false prophecies." You put timelines on them and some have even been fulfilled just maybe not how you think they should have been. Maybe ask God.
"As for Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit being one. The Bible declares that Jesus is fully God, not a subordinate deity. He eternally exists as God and is our creator. "
Yes. Did you not read my last post? Be sure you read the second part as well.
"John 1:1-4, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Yes, Jesus is the creator of this earth through the power and authority of His Father. Jesus, Jehova, is God and Savior of this earth and yet He is still God's Son. I have written about this before, please reread my posts.
"Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.
Colossians 1:16-17
For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
All great and I agree that Jesus is the God of this earth and the Son of God, Elohim, or Heavenly Father. I dont disagree on that. I just know that they are not one being, that is all. Again, wonderful post, I hope my responses make some sort of sense.
Here is why I believe the God Head the way I do.
There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of them (A of F 1: 1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17: 21-23; 2 Ne. 31: 21; 3 Ne. 11: 27, 36).
God the Father: It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because he is the father of our spirits (Mal. 2: 10; Num. 16: 22; 27: 16; Matt. 6: 9; Eph. 4: 6; Heb. 12: 9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18: 14; Alma 26: 35; D&C 19: 1-3), all knowing (Matt. 6: 8; 2 Ne. 2: 24), and everywhere present through his Spirit (Ps. 139: 7-12; D&C 88: 7-13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82: 6; 1 Jn. 3: 1-3; D&C 20: 17-18).
There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that he spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4: 14-31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3: 17; 17: 5; John 12: 28-29; 3 Ne. 11: 3-7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7: 55-56) and Joseph Smith (JS-H 1: 17). Later he appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76: 20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that he is God (Matt. 5: 8; 3 Ne. 12: 8; D&C 76: 116-118; 93: 1).
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Mark 15: 34. These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16: 17. We are the offspring of God, Acts 17: 28-29. Thou shalt offer thy sacraments unto the Most High, D&C 59: 10-12. Enoch beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6: 36. Man of Holiness is his name, Moses 6: 57.
God the Son: The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12: 2; 43: 11; 49: 26; 1 Cor. 10: 1-4; 1 Tim. 1: 1; Rev. 1: 8; 2 Ne. 22: 2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brothers and sisters, for he is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1: 1-3, 10, 14; Heb. 1: 1-2).
The Lord identified himself as I AM, Ex. 3: 13-16. I am the Lord [Jehovah], and beside me there is no savior, Isa. 43: 11 (Isa. 45: 23). I am the light of the world, John 8: 12. Before Abraham was, I am, John 8: 58. The Lord shall minister among men in a tabernacle of clay, Mosiah 3: 5-10. Abinadi explained how Christ is the Father and the Son, Mosiah 15: 1-4 (Ether 3: 14). The Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, Ether 3. Listen to the words of Christ your Lord and your God, Moro. 8: 8. Jehovah is the judge of the quick and the dead, Moro. 10: 34. Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, D&C 76: 20, 23. The Lord Jehovah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, D&C 110: 1-4. Jehovah spoke to Abraham, Abr. 1: 16-19. Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith, JS-H 1: 17.
God the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost is also a God and is called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of God, among other similar names and titles. With the aid of the Holy Ghost, man can know the will of God the Father and know that Jesus is the Christ (1 Cor. 12: 3).
The Holy Ghost will teach you what you should say, Luke 12: 12. The Holy Ghost is the Comforter, John 14: 26 (John 16: 7-15). Jesus gave commandments to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost, Acts 1: 2. The Holy Ghost bears witness of God and Christ, Acts 5: 29-32 (1 Cor. 12: 3). The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us, Heb. 10: 10-17. By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10: 5. The Holy Ghost is the spirit of revelation, D&C 8: 2-3 (D&C 68: 4).
Here is some for Man's potential to become like God.
Refers to all mankind, both male and female. All men and women are the literal, spiritual offspring of a Heavenly Father. When they are born into mortality, they receive physical, mortal bodies. These bodies were created in God’s image (Gen. 1: 26-27). Men and women who are faithful in receiving the necessary ordinances, keeping their covenants, and obeying God’s commands will enter into their exaltation and become as God.
God created man in his own image, Gen. 1: 27 (Mosiah 7: 27; D&C 20: 17-18). What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Ps. 8: 4-5. Cursed is the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm, Jer. 17: 5 (2 Ne. 4: 34; 28: 26, 31). When I became a man, I put away childish things, 1 Cor. 13: 11. Men are that they might have joy, 2 Ne. 2: 25. The natural man is an enemy to God, Mosiah 3: 19. What manner of men ought ye to be? 3 Ne. 27: 27. The works of man are frustrated, not the works of God, D&C 3: 3. You should not fear man more than God, D&C 3: 7 (D&C 30: 11; 122: 9). All things are made for the benefit and the use of man, D&C 59: 18. I know that man is nothing, Moses 1: 10. God’s work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, Moses 1: 39.
Man, a spirit child of Heavenly Father: They fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16). Ye are the children of the Lord your God, Deut. 14: 1. Ye are gods and all of you are children of the Most High, Ps. 82: 6. Ye are the sons of the living God, Hosea 1: 10. Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2: 10. We are the offspring of God, Acts 17: 29. The Spirit itself beareth witness that we are the children of God, Rom. 8: 16. Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. The spirits of all men are taken home to that God who gave them life, Alma 40: 11. The inhabitants of the worlds are begotten sons and daughters of God, D&C 76: 24. Man was in the beginning with the Father, D&C 93: 23, 29. God created all men spiritually, before they were upon the face of the earth, Moses 3: 5-7. I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6: 51.
Man, potential to become like Heavenly Father: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48). Is it not written in your law that ye are gods? John 10: 34 (D&C 76: 58). We may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, Rom. 8: 17. Thou art a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4: 7. When he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3: 2. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne, Rev. 3: 21. To them have I given to become the sons of God, 3 Ne. 9: 17. Those who inherit the celestial kingdom are gods, even the sons of God, D&C 76: 50, 58. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, D&C 132: 20.
My continued novel. In response to your question here is the rest of my post.
"If Smith's doctrine of God is wrong he falls under the condemnation of Deuteronomy 13, a false prophet leading the people after a false god. So how do you tackle Smith's doctrine of multiple gods with Isaiah 43:10-11 and Isaiah 44:8?"
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
“Forth, LDS teaches that in order to gain eternal life (as opposed to merely entering heaven) one must be "worthy." It is achieved after a life of full activity in Mormonism, full tithing, temple marriage, etc. So the questions I have for you are: What is required to achieve eternal life in Mormonism? Have you met all of those requirements? If you died today do you know that you will have eternal life?"
How would I know? I think only God and Jesus Christ can answer that for you. Let me know if they tell you anything, ok?
"I would like to point out that I and any other Christian has the assurance of eternal life through faith in Christ, not church activity (1 John 5:13).”
That is very good, but explain to me why it goes contrary to the following from even just the Bible?
I would like to point out why I believe that belief to be wrong.
1 Thes. 1: 3
3 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of afaith•, and blabour• of love, and cpatience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
James 2: 18 18 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my afaith by my bworks•.
James 2: 20 20 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that afaith without bworks• is dead?
James 2: 26 26 26 For as the body without the aspirit is bdead, so faith without cworks is dead also.
Here is some more good stuff.
One of the attributes of God (Isa. 46: 9-10; Acts 15: 18; 2 Ne. 9: 20). Knowledge of divine and spiritual things is absolutely essential for one’s salvation; hence the gospel is to be taught to every soul. “How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” (Rom. 10: 14). Knowledge is not obtained all at once, even by revelation, but line upon line, precept upon precept (Isa. 28: 9-10). The scriptures, and also living prophets, are given so that the people might have knowledge of things of God and “know how to worship, and know what you worship” (cf. D&C 93: 19). Knowledge is one of the endowments of the Holy Ghost (John 14: 26; John 16: 13; D&C 34: 10; D&C 121: 26-33) and one of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12: 8; Moro. 10: 10; D&C 46: 18). Peter lists knowledge along with faith, patience, kindness, and virtue as necessary acquisitions for one who would seek for a divine nature (2 Pet. 1: 3-9). Since no one can be saved in ignorance of the gospel (D&C 131: 6), and one progresses only as fast as he gains knowledge (HC 4: 588), it follows that the person who gains knowledge will have “the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130: 18-19).
The work of the ministry is to do the work of the Lord on the earth - to represent the Lord among the people, preach the gospel, and administer the ordinances thereof. The chosen servants and appointed officers in the Church of Jesus Christ are put on earth by him to conduct the work necessary for the salvation of mankind. A minister “called of God, as was Aaron” (Heb. 5: 4), and endowed with the holy priesthood, represents the Lord when he is performing his official duties, and is the Lord’s agent. Therefore, what he does “according to the will of the Lord is the Lord’s business” (D&C 64: 29). The Lord has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, high priests, seventies, elders, bishops, priests, teachers, deacons, helps and governments “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (the Church), until all have reached the spiritual stature of Christ, the whole body being “fitly joined together” by that which every part supplieth. See Eph. 4: 11-16; 1 Cor. 12: 12-28; D&C 20; D&C 107. Other references are Acts 11: 30; Acts 14: 23; Acts 15: 6; Acts 16: 4; Acts 20: 17, 28; Acts 21: 18; Philip. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8-12; James 5: 14.
In ancient days, sacrifice meant to make something or someone holy. It has now come to mean to give up or suffer the loss of worldly things for the Lord and his kingdom. Members of the Lord’s Church should be willing to sacrifice all things for the Lord. Joseph Smith taught that “a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has the power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.” In the eternal perspective, the blessings obtained by sacrifice are greater than anything that is given up.
The Lord will render to every man according to his works, Prov. 24: 12. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, Matt. 5: 16 (3 Ne. 12: 16). He that doeth the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Matt. 7: 21. Faith without works is dead, James 2: 14-26. They must be judged of their works, 1 Ne. 15: 32 (Mosiah 3: 24). We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do, 2 Ne. 25: 23. Teach them to never be weary of good works, Alma 37: 34. It is requisite that men should be judged according to their works, Alma 41: 3. By their works ye shall know them, Moro. 7: 5 (D&C 18: 38). I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, D&C 137: 9.
“Ok…I think I put enough references in this one. You will notice that I did not just use the Bible…I also used the D&C…I told you I read all views.
And …….. Phew, I almost thought I could not answer those questions.”
Very well done. I have enjoyed reading your post. I hope you can see why I believe the way I do. I love learning from other people and it strengthens my testimony to investigate and search for the truth. I appreciate your kindness and your efforts. I look forward to your future posts.
OK...now I can go back to the conversation. I was out for vacation for a week and I had very little computer access. So, I will get to this as soon as I have a chance to read all of it.
shareI'm jumping into this dialogue uninvited. First, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has been interesting to read the thread running between you "h-zimmy" and "nosyrb".
h-zimmy,
I don't really know if you are sincere in your efforts to find out more about the LDS church and its doctrines or if your purpose is to bring up alleged contradictions OR if it lies somewhere else along that continuum.
It appears you don't like the pat responses you have been given by members of the LDS church such as the need to pray, etc. It also appears you want answers to some questions, but I believe it only appears that way.
When you get to the point of being sincere in your quest for the truth, I believe your questions will change into more sincere ones, as well.
May the Lord bless each of us to reflect deep enough inside ourselves and rely upon Him enough every day to find, embrace and commit to the truths taught by the Way, the Truth and the Life Himself--Jesus Christ.
I leave you with my witness that Jesus Christ lived sinlessly and atoned in the Garden of Gethsemane for each of us to make it back to heaven someday. He loves each of us perfectly. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
WHAT???????????????????????
notyourordinarymoviecritic
He raises a great deal of intresting points about possible unfulfilled prophecy, I am literally on the edge of my seat waiting for a response and you say that his questions are not sincere?????What kind of an response is that? First of all it is an indirect accusation to somebody who spent hours of research!!!Why would you accuse him of insincerity?
Is there an answer to his questions????
It is one thing to challenge another’s beliefs but to use lies to back up that challenge is something else. I am referring to the allegation that the witnesses of the Book of Mormon later recanted their testimony or said they saw it in a dream. That is a bold face lie. There is no evidence to back up that claim. If so please post any references so people can look it up. If it comes down to it I can supply the accuser with statements made by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon verifying even on their death beds that what they saw was true.
shareMy purpose is to add my witness to the truth. Simply put, some questions come across (it seems) as insincere rather than really searching for truth.
The Savior Jesus Christ understood this perfectly. When those who were insincere asked questions in an attempt to cause him to contradict himself, the law of Moses, etc., He spoke truth.
I'm sorry if I came across as accusing. I thought that I made that point that IF he/she was insincere, that...
Hope that helps...
I find all of this to be so ironic. First we have alleged Christians faulting Mormons because of their belief in the Book of Mormon. But you can turn right around and non-christains are doing the same thing to the Christians because they believe in the Bible. I copied this selection from a non Christian web site to prove a point
The Bible is the foundation of Christianity. It is viewed by fundamentalist Christians as the crystal pure, clear, infallible word of their god. They claim that it is absolutely the most wonderful collection of books in the history of the universe, that it is as perfect as any written document could ever be. My question is this-have they ever read the thing? I have read the Bible, and it just does not measure up to this sensational billing. In fact, it falls quite short of it. To be perfectly blunt, the books of the Bible are not materially different from other books written during the same time period. The books of the Bible merely reflect the primitive ideas and questionable morals of the ancient people who wrote them.
All Christians will claim that the Bible was inspired or created by their god in some fashion. If you ask a Christian specifically why he or she believes this, your query will likely be met with one of the following responses:
# "Because it says so."
# "Because it shows fulfilled prophecies."
# "Because it shows remarkable consistency for a book written over the course of one thousand years by some forty different authors."
# "Because it details the perfect teachings and the ultimate sacrifice of our dear Lord Jesus."
# "Because it is the ultimate guidebook for life."
The "because it says so" response is surprisingly common. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!" The problem, of course, is with the first three words.
The fulfilled prophecy claim is a tired Christian refrain which just does not stand up to critical examination.
The Bible is not consistent, it is inconsistent. It is, in fact, a morass of contradictions. Even if it was somehow "consistent," this would not make it supernatural.
There is no evidence that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible existed anywhere outside of the pages of the Bible, and the moral goodness and worth of the teachings ascribed to the biblical Jesus are dubious at best. In a moment I will explain why this is so.
The Bible is a guidebook for life? This is the most asinine claim Christians make, and that is saying a lot. It is supremely asinine because the Bible glorifies war and pillaging, condones torture, promotes infanticide, advocates child abuse, belittles and degrades women, and so on. In the Old Testament, the Christian god personally murders infants and children (Exodus 12:29, II Kings 2:23,24), it supports slavery (Exodus 21:20, Duet. 15:12-17, Duet. 20:10, Joshua 16:10) and, time and again, it orders its chosen people to massacre men, women and children (Samuel 15:3, Numbers 21:31, Isaiah 13:16, Duet. 3:3-8, Joshua 8:24-16, Hosea 13:16, etc.). I am sorry, but the Bible is not a guidebook for life.
Anyone notice a pattern here?
[deleted]
Just because a couple of stupid people who HAPPEN to belong to the LDS church go out and molest kids doesn't mean we all do.
What if I said that this Jewish kid went and smoked crack one day, so that must mean all Jewish people are crackheads?
Why do people only look at this from an "Anti-Mormon" point of view? What if the same thing happened in other religions? (WHICH IT HAS!) No one criticizes the Catholic religion because of all those priests/bishops (Sorry, I'm LDS, I'm not sure what to call them.) that were molesting young boys a couple of years ago. I mean, that is, people don't make a general assumption that all Catholics are child molesters like some do Mormons.
Somehow I think this further proves that the LDS church really IS the one true church on the earth - if Satan's drawing all these people to criticize and bash us.
Think about it.
slc_sweetie118
I really find it funny that you chastize and abuse fellow christians... who regardless of the nature or validity of thier faith still worship Christ as their lord and savior... I being an Atheist find quabbles amongst the suposedly faithful kind of entertaining. To me your all lumped into one ireadeemable group... Christians.
The nature of the arguement has evolved greatly from its inseption and now seems bent and focused on how to justify atrosities. Intriuging to me is that regardless of whether you are a Mormon or of any other denomination you have unwittingly concented to the murder and genocide of an inconcievable number of people. God, the fellow you all worship and deify drowned unknown numbers in a worldwide flood... He killed the inocent children of the egyptians after Thier FATHERS!!! and the pharoah had refused to let moses and his people go. God destroyed Sodamm and Gamoarah burning all who lived their alive and turned a poor hapless victim who wanted to look back at her home on last time into a pillar of salt (Lot's wife). Would you same people who justify these inscourpless acts of terror and evil also tell me the crusades where god's will... Or how about witch hunts... or maybe and probably worst of all, the INQUISITION.
I sence nothing but confusion amongst all of you. You would prattle on about my ignorance and would acuse me of blasphemy... but you all have judged your fellow man... and to those "OH SO PLEASANT" Mormon bashers... have you not called your brethren fools... have you not all condemned them to HELL FIRE
Well DAMN YOU. DAMN AlL OF YOU.
um let me ask you a question if you don't mind. In your mind you feel those people had no reason to be punished? so if some of you family was beaten raped and killed you would feel that the killer needed no judgement? And about the crusades maybe they did do lots of bad during the crusade but look at all the good it brought about? Our lives would probably be derastically changed if many bad things hadn't happened.
HEY for all my fellow LDS members out here is a wonderful site to all anti mormons questions
www.antiantimormon.com
Sorry I have been MIA...alot going on in my life at this point. I just thought LDS memebers may enjoy debating on this site http://concernedchristians.org It is a little better forum for debating then this one is. Hope you enjoy.
Oh and what I could read...I was not offended by anything anyone has said on this. We all speak from our heart and say what we know. And by the way...I have researched LDS (down to the last sentence...or somthing like what a post person said) so I know what I am talking about...and try very hard not to include personal oppion but only the facts that are very clear.
it's so sad when people try and tell other people that they are going to hell. you dont even have to read the bible to know the verse judge not, lest ye be judged. Or let him without sin cast the first stone. Lets just all live our lives to the best we can, put your trust in God and everything will be fine. Stop hating people because of their religion. Is mormonism hurting anyone? NO. Religion has never hurt anyone, but fanatical, prideful, religous people do.
shareAnd by the way...I have researched LDS (down to the last sentence...or somthing like what a post person said) so I know what I am talking about...and try very hard not to include personal oppion but only the facts that are very clear.I find this a rather bold claim, that you are an expert on Mormonism. You posts don't convince me that you really know much more than you have been able to glean from anti-Mormon websites.