need help from non-Christians + Christians - Amazing Grace (2007) Discussion

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part One:

One of the class discussion topics that really sparked my interest was the week we discussed Saint Augustine. The following situation was presented: one person, throughout a sizeable portion of his/her life, violated the Christian principles of living; but then shortly before they died, they genuinely accepted Christ. On the other hand, there is a second person who, although he/she is not a Christian and does not believe in God, has indeed lived by these same Christian principles throughout their life. The question was then raised if the first person would receive eternal life while the second would receive eternal damnation.
I believe these people have made their choices. The Bible makes it clear that we must accept Jesus as the Savior of our lives, and only then will we be allowed into heaven, receiving eternal life. If we do not, we will spend an eternity in hell, an eternal death. Jesus offers everyone the gift of eternal life, but the choice is left up to us to either reject or accept the gift. It is up to us then to determine where we will spend eternity. However, I believe it is also important for lifestyle to match this decision, living the way God wants us to. If we don’t we’re essentially telling Him that we don’t really want Him involved in our lives after all, and aren’t actually accepting His gift.
Still, our eternal destination does not rest merely upon doing good works. Reading what the text says about Saint Augustine, however, it seemed that he emphasized a good lifestyle. In itself, this is not a bad thing, but the text hardly mentions Jesus when describing Augustine’s views. Yet Christianity itself is founded upon Jesus.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] shandy82165 16 years ago

Our salvation is based solely on the grace of God through the blood of His Son Christ Jesus who died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead. That's it. There's no other way. There's no way we can be "good" enough on our own, we will always fall short His glory and perfection.

If we could do it on our own, then Christ's cruxifiction was in vain. He died for nothing. If our works could save us then we wouldn't need a Savior, would we?

It doesn't matter at what stage of your life you choose to accept, only that you choose Him. But choose you must, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is our choice and we have the free will to make up our own mind about it. Why would He force us to spend eternity with Him if we don't want anything to do with Him here on Earth?

reply

[–] Korios 9 years ago

Putting aside obvious objections about the relevance of posts like this in a film board, I just have this ethical dilemma for you :

Since you did not really address your ethics question but started preaching and self-indulging in faith, I will address it for you.
Case A : Imagine a man who has no faith but has never hurt a soul in his life, while helping everyone as much as he can. He is in his deathbed and the priest approaches him like a vulture, the same way a priest did to Voltaire, and asks him to accept Jesus Christ in his heart in order to go to heaven and be spared of hell. He doesn't, replying similarly to Voltaire, and then dies. If Christianity is true he will go to hell.

Case B : Imagine a serial killer and abuser of children and babies who never got caught. He reaches old age while having abused and killed about a hundred innocent children, all younger than 15, just to have fun or because he felt bored. All the while he was a pious Christian, a Southern Baptist specifically. Noone ever finds out about his crimes until his last hours. In his deathbed he feels for the very first time fear and guilt. He confesses his crimes to the priest for the very first time; the priest (naturally) absolves him of his sins and reassures him that "All is forgiven now, accept Jesus Christ in your heart and you will soon meet Him in paradise". The man expires relieved, being sure that he was spared hell.

Regardless of your personal beliefs, dogmas and "what the bible says" just think for a moment, use any common sense, ethics and morality you may bear and compare the above examples. If your faith is real and the bible is true then the first man, a very good man, has to go to hell while the second man, a monster, will go to heaven. Aside from the usual "God works in mysterious ways" BS in what universe would the above decision ever be considered just and fair? So, if the above are true and the Christian God exists then... he is unjust, unfair and cruel. Oh wait, he is not, I know, for everything God does is fair and just, and the right thing to do because.. "He is God silly" (the William Lane Craig defense, used even to justify the massive slaughter of Chanaanite babies by the Israelites, by saying repulsive stuff like "God wanted these babies close to him!").

Rant off. When you confuse ethics with religious doctrine, and base ethics not on what is just and fair but on what a collection of Bronze age ancient texts says, you create a $hit$torm for yourself mate.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

reply

[–] jdmaloy226-294-349453 8 years ago

By way of a thinking response, let's dig a little deeper into Cases A and B.

Case A: Are you asserting that this man was utterly innocent of any form of wrongdoing in his entire life? If so then you're putting forth an impossibility; everyone is guilty in some way of some sort of immorality. I'd suggest at least attempting to be realistic about it and include a summary of the sorts of wrongs he did in fact commit. (Feel free to make them as trivial as you like; the sorts of things that our modern and enlightened society would readily dismiss.)

Case B: Could you clarify what the rest of this man's life was like? What exactly did he do to maintain his front of being a pious Southern Baptist? Merely attending services every so often wouldn't cut it in most such churches; they're notoriously suspicious of isolated loners. He'd have to be married with kids, or have a good excuse for not being so. Not to mention showing up at the social events, being there for Sunday School and the Wednesday night Bible study, joining the folks who are paying visits on the widows and shut-ins of the congregation, taking part in all the charitable work the church does among the poor of their community... you get the idea. He did do these things, didn't he? (If you're going to say he didn't, then again you've put forth such an unrealistic hypothetical that it's not worth answering.)

If you insist on a thinking attitude towards questions of faith, then you need to start with a realistic picture of what real human beings are like -- not ridiculous one-dimensional caricatures.

reply

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part two:

Another one of our class discussions in relation to Augustine had to do with Christianity and wealth. The verse given is from the book of Matthew 19. Matthew 19:16-24 gives the account of a rich young ruler who approached Jesus and asked Him what he should do to gain eternal life. Jesus told him to obey the commandments: do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself (Jesus notably leaves out the commandment to not covet). The young man replies by saying he has kept all these commandments, and asked what he still was lacking. Jesus then told him to sell all of his possessions and give to the poor, and then come follow Him. Upon hearing this, the man walked away in dismay because he had great wealth.
Jesus knew that this young ruler was a very rich man, and perceived that his wealth, as well as a lack of commitment and trust was serving as a hindrance for allowing the young ruler to accept the gift of eternal life. Therefore, in order to remove this hindrance, Jesus told him to rid himself of his wealth. However, by turning away, the man showed that his love for his wealth was greater than eternal life.
The text quotes verses 23-24: “And Jesus said to His disciples, ‘Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.’” These verses don’t seem to give much hope for people who possess great wealth. However, it was not simply that this rich young ruler possessed great wealth that was hindering him from receiving eternal life, but his love for his wealth. The same applies to modern people of wealth. If we view our wealth as a gift from God, and use it wisely, then it does not become a hindrance. In addition, verses 24-25 go on to say that Jesus’s disciples were “greatly astonished” and asked Jesus if it was possible for anyone to be saved. Jesus answers them by saying that nothing is impossible with God. So even if there is someone who loves their wealth a little too much like the young ruler, with God’s help, it is possible to change our way of thinking.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] shandy82165 16 years ago

Is there a question here that i'm missing? You stated it correctly, it's the love of money, not the money itself that was the stumbling block for the rich ruler. And yes, it is indeed possible to change our thinking with Christ in our lives.

reply

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part three:

When reading about Friedrich Nietzsche and his master and slave moralities, I couldn’t help but disagree with Nietzsche’s assertions of Christianity. Nietzsche claims that with its promotion of love, sacrifice, and humility, the Church is rooted in the slave morality, which is oriented in resentment and fear. However, the Bible teaches that we ought to do these things out of love and respect for Jesus, as well as others and ourselves. We are to act humbly toward God, not out of fear, but out of respect. There are places in the Bible that talk about having a fear of God; but this fear is not out of cowardice and being afraid of God. In contrast, this fear of God means to have great respect for Him, and that we are in awe of His presence.

Christians, your help is needed for this part as well. When my teacher returned my rough draft to me with comments, one of them asked how I would respond to objections to the Bible being divinely inspired. So this is where I need help. I've heard some kinds of things before about proof of the Bible's validity, but I can't remember any specifics.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] shandy82165 16 years ago

I have a bit of trivia I can throw at you but you'll have to do the background research on it yourself to make it stick.

1. No archeological finding has ever refuted any historical documentation found in the Bible.

2. The unity of the Bible - 66 books written by 40+ authors over 1500 years. And one central theme...sin. One answer...Jesus.

3. Approximately 245 prophesies fulfilled (conservative estimate), 30 prophesies about Christ alone fulfilled...hundreds of years after they were predicted.

4. The Bible is regarded as the most accurate history book ever, even by secular scholars. (not sure about the source of this statement, do a little research)

5. The Bible of today is 99.4% accurate from the original transcripts after having gone through intense academic research, and the process of textual criticsm by scholars.

I'm not sure how much of that you can use, but I hope it's helpful. It's difficult to argue "God-breathed" because it presumes a belief in God.

But the accuracy of the document alone, and the prophecies fulfilled is awe-inspiring. And the unity! Name one other piece of literature containing 66 books written by over 40 authors spanning 1500 years with one central theme, containing hundreds of PROPHESIES, by multiple prophets, that have come TRUE. With more coming true right before our eyes! I tell ya, I don't know how you can NOT believe.

reply

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Thank you for your help. This is basically the kind of stuff I said I"ve heard befoere, I just could not remember the specifics.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] imdb-6179 16 years ago

Too bad you didn't get any help from non-Christians.

1. Age of the Earth? No world-wide flood? Evolution?

How many archaeological findings have ever supported anything in the Bible? I mean the interesting stuff - the "there was a city called blah" stuff is not particularly hard to get right, especially if you live there. I mean anything having to do with the divine.

2. Are you... kidding me? There is little unity, and what unity there is was created on purpose by later authors being inspired by earlier authors (witness the strained attempts of the New Testament Gospels to fit Old Testament prophecies - all in different ways, of course). And then there was the fact that the books that became "the Bible" were all specifically chosen, and there was a lot that didn't go in (e.g., the apocrypha). When people get together to try to get rid of differences (e.g., the First Council of Nicaea), it's not surprising that some of the differences are discarded.

And I hate to break it to you, but the Old Testament (which is a lot of the Bible) is not about Jesus. Hence why it's regarded as holy scripture by Jews and Muslims as well.

3. What you're saying is that people who were trying to establish a new religion happened to claim a number of things that were prophecies of an older religion. Big surprise? Note that, for example, Jews don't actually think the whole messiah thing was fulfilled. Not to speak of non-religious people.

4. The source of this statement is thin air. No secular scholar regards the Bible as especially accurate. Given that it's a piece of propaganda, that's not surprising.

5. The Bible of today? Which one? I guarantee that, for example, King James and New Jerusalem agree a lot less than 99.4% of the time.

And original transcripts? I'm not even sure what you could possibly mean by this. We have precisely none of the original manuscripts (written by the authors).

Given all this, my guess at how you COULD believe is that you ignore anything that doesn't fit into your worldview.

reply

[–] laxsurfer13 16 years ago

I just want to suggest a couple of books for you. You will probably be skeptical at first because the author is now a Christian, but he presents the material very well. Lee Strobel, may have heard of him, but his The Case for Christ and The Case for a Creator, approach some of the questions/objections you raised. At the time of Strobel's investigations he was not a Christian. Lee Strobel started out for years as a legal journalist, always out for the truth about ongoing cases and such, and so I don't doubt his sincerity or validity.

reply

[–] Korios 9 years ago

4. The Bible is regarded as the most accurate history book ever, even by secular scholars. (not sure about the source of this statement, do a little research)

While none of your other points are valid, this one is an example of supreme dishonesty, a shameless fabrication, so I will deal with that alone. Do you really think that repeating a lie many times will pass as truth, my dear propagandist? Is this Christian apologetics 101? There is not a single secular scholar who has ever regarded the Bible as "the most accurate history book ever", and if you manage to find one, the only place he can possible be is in a high security lunatic asylum.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

reply

[–] Korios 9 years ago

You do realize that addressing Nietzsche's writings on Christianity's master & slave morality with the line "we ought to do these things out of love and respect for Jesus" is the equivalent of answering "God did it" to someone asking "How did this happen?", right? Once again you formulated no dismissal or real criticism of Nietzsche's writings, instead resorting to Bible references. Which is exactly what you do not do in ethics; ethics is a part of philosophy, not religion, and in philosophy you are trained to think, to argue, to elaborate, to analyze, to sharpen your critical skills; the last thing you do in philosophy is to resort to "God did it" non-arguments. This demonstrates an intellectual disability.

You do not need to be non-religious to have a modest philosophical background, you just need to be able to think.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

reply

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Part four:

When learning about Soren Kierkegaard, I liked the way he distinguished between Christianity and Christendom. I liked the way he said that Christianity involves an inward commitment, which in turn transforms one’s life. I believe that this is really what Christianity is all about. It involves recognizing Christ’s sacrifice for us, and making the decision to accept Jesus as the Savior of our lives. It doesn’t have to involve a prayer, but just deciding that God is in control of your life. Christendom, in contrast, is merely the things associated with Christianity: going to church, reading the Bible, and merely acting like a Christian should.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] shandy82165 16 years ago

Again, is there a question here somewhere?

reply

[–] trina_disneyfanatic 16 years ago

I am finished writing my paper. I found stuff that I could use. Thank you to the person who gave me statistics about the validity of the Bible. By the way, to that same person, I found an article online that actually talks some about how the Bible is actually Divinely inspired. If you're interested, I can provide a link for this article. It also talks about the same kind of things this person gave in the reply to my thread.

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] kimwick 16 years ago

I would be interested in reading that article. If you see this post, could you please put it up. Thanks!

reply

[–] shandy82165 16 years ago

I would be very interested, thank you!

reply

[–] katrina-disneyfanatic 16 years ago

Okay, here's the link for that article. Those of you who are interested can check it out.

http://www.everymaverick.com/bible.php

If you love Jesus Christ 100% (and He is #1 in your life) copy this and use it for your signature.

reply

[–] vinsond21 16 years ago

Just airing my two cents' worth regarding some earlier posts:
1) Money - Christians are allowed to make money and enjoy the good life that it brings. But they should not let these take over their Christian walk. Christians should also not accumulate money unnecessarily. By all means save for one's retirement or have a fund for emergencies. But don't hoard money especially if it can be better deployed in furthering the Lord's work.
2) Old Testament - To the Jews, this is holy and sacred. To the Christians, this is still God's word but superceded by a more relevant New Testament. To the Muslims, this is only a reference for a new blasphemous version to be based on.

reply

[–] Arisuta 9 years ago

To be quite honest, you come across as someone out to preach their nutty zombie rabbi death cult BS who has absolutely no interest in philosophy whatsoever. You were also merely out to seek confirmation from similarly deluded religious bunkernuts for the warped view of reality that you possess. Congratulations, you found some fellow religiotards to prop up your mad ego and ignored any and all points raised against the worthless drivel that you spouted. A closed mind is incapable of learning anything.

"Which it will be ready when it's READY!" Preserved Killick, Master and Commander

reply

[–] scion777-554-857756 9 years ago

You're a bit of a donkey's behind, aren't you?

reply

[–] Arisuta 9 years ago

To whom are you referring?

"Which it will be ready when it's READY!" Preserved Killick, Master and Commander

reply