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Why Wonder Woman is not a Mary Sue Like Rey


Despite being an extremely similar character to Rey, both women who possess unexplained powers seemingly from birth and other special skills, Wonder Woman was a much more interesting and relatable character than Rey. It's worth exploring why that was.

People don't constantly agree with everything Wonder Woman says and bow to her wishes at every turn. Quite the opposite, almost every single character she meets challenges her and stops her from easily doing what she wants: her mom, Steve Trevor, the military leaders, Etta Candy, even the Scottish guy. This creates instant relatability from the audience who can recognize that's what life is really like. No matter how right you might be, it is hard to convince other people of that.

Wonder Woman is not shown to be completely competent and have perfect knowledge of what to do at all times. She has to have someone else save her life in her first fight. She is clueless about fitting into western culture. She is sometimes over-confident, although her boldness does prove to be an asset most of the time. She questions her own instincts and philosophies near the end of the movie. She doesn't walk into the movie knowing everything and teaching it to everybody else. By contrast, we watch her learn and become a more complete and different person throughout the course of the movie.

When Wonder Woman succeeds in the movie, it is not at the expense of other characters being made to look like clueless, bumbling idiots. She doesn't get in an airplane and teach an experienced pilot like Steve Trevor how to fly. We don't have to constantly watch another character fail only to see Wonder Woman step in and show them how it's done right. Even when she is leading the charge, the male characters in the movie usually back her up with invaluable, skillful support. She gets necessary help from Steve to take out the sniper.

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Wonder Woman is not shown to be some kind of emotional powerhouse that doesn't need anybody and is a totally "independent woman." On the contrary, her love for Steve makes her extremely vulnerable emotionally. The loss of Steve is a life-changing experience for her. She still grieves for the man she loved 100 years later. She doesn't walk around like she doesn't need men and saying "I am woman, hear me roar."

The movie overall is about as least feminist as I ever would've imagined we would see in the current political climate. There is no way that Patty Jenkins is a modern feminist who buys into the current "wave" of feminism, whatever it might be. She isn't anti-men, anti-sex, anti-violence-in-media, anti-glamour, etc. She is simply pro-equality, believing women should have the opportunity to compete on the same playing field as men and playing by the same rules. Before feminism was mucked up with one unrelated political agenda after another attaching to it like barnacles, this simple, clear and fair ideal was all it meant. Jenkins has created a movie that embodies that fairness and in the process shows that she understands women better than the feminists do.

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I liked how she was so drawn to a baby in that one scene. It was endearing and exactly what I would imagine 95% of the women on the planet doing upon seeing a baby for the first time. Wonder Woman was REALLY a woman. That's a good thing.

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I think she is independent in that she's self-sufficient but she values the friendships she has made. She has an emotional life for sure.

Yeah, true feminism is about treating men and women as individuals worthy of respect and fair treatment. There is a necessary critical approach which tackles questions of oppressive institutions and cultures in order to realise this equality and challenges unjust power relationships that affect both genders.

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So a betty sue?

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Diana Sue. XD

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In fact, WW is pretty much the opposite of any Mary Sue because she's standing around like a moron while Steve the Hero does everything and she has less dialogue than anyone else in the movie, including Steve's comic sidekicks.
And thanks for mentioning how her ridiculous puppy love for the guy she's known for 5 minutes makes her "vulnerable", since it was, in fact the whole point. She's a chick, see? She's powered by love and fluffy things.

Patty Jenkins directed the movie. She did not write the script. A bunch of dudes did. Shocker.

I guess that's why you like her.

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The movie overall is about as least feminist as I ever would've imagined we would see in the current political climate. There is no way that Patty Jenkins is a modern feminist who buys into the current "wave" of feminism, whatever it might be. She isn't anti-men, anti-sex, anti-violence-in-media, anti-glamour, etc.


What the hell? What era are you living in that feminism is "anti-men, anti-sex... anti-glamour"? If anything, "modern" (whatever the hell that means in your case) feminism is the opposite of all that. You're totally out of touch. Get out of whatever cave you're living and get a clue on what you're talking about.

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ARE YOU KIDDING ME? SHE TOTALLY IS! She ended World War I by herself, are you kidding me? They literally had her end World War I!

Give me a break.

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Succeeding in the end does not make you a Mary Sue, that's what all heroes do. Is Karate Kid a Mary Sue just because he wins the final tournament after getting his butt kicked the entire movie?

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Did you miss her sanctimonious monologues about war all the time?

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Like Yoda's and Mr. Miyagi's monologues about not using your powers for attack?

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To be frank, that was their legal out if they ever got sued because of copycats.

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Dude, by your standards, Captain America is a Mary Sue.

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James Bond is one of the biggest ever, but highly-competent or overly-competent males aren't really complained about. That's the sexism guys like the OP fail to comprehend.

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ARE YOU KIDDING ME? SHE TOTALLY IS! She ended World War I by herself, are you kidding me? They literally had her end World War I!

Give me a break.

No she bloody well didn't end WWI by herself. When she arrives in London the governments are already in armistice negotiations. Ludendorf kills several of the German High Command officers who want to continue negotiations and reject his plans for another attack. Steve Trevor is told several times that his mission could jeopardize the ongoing negotiations. The armistice negotiations are taking place, and they are what ends the war.

Steve and Diana blowing up one weapons depot and killing one high ranking German general (and British diplomat -- but no one apart from Diana even knows he was ever there) is not something that is ever stated to be the decisive, war-ending event. The viewer is left to assume that the negotiations proceeded and the armistice was agreed upon by the governments of both sides. The actions taken by Diana and Steve don't affect the negotiations, except insofar as they eliminated Ludendorf, who was about to derail them with his chemical attack on London. Most people were smart enough to figure that out.

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She kills Ares and everyone starts hugging after that. I think it's safe to say that she did. Thanks.

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So, on your side of the argument, we see two or three people hugging -- which could be entirely down to their just having survived when the entire base around them went up in a huge fireball, and they can't believe their luck. On my side, we have the KNOWN fact that armistice negotiations were already well underway before Diana ever left the island, that, and the KNOWN fact that Ludendorf had to take out most of his own high command to try and prevent an armistice from being signed, and the KNOWN fact that Steve had been ordered to take no action lest it derail peace talks.

Even with all the combatants under Ares' influence, peace was about to be made. Killing him simply removes some of the ill will and bitterness he was stirring up, which everyone was about to make peace in spite of anyway.

Yeah, I think its safe to say you're wrong. Thanks.

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ROFLMAO, I can see without a shadow of a doubt that you are dead wrong. Watch the movie again. They snapped out of their daze and started hugging after Diana defeated Ares. Other people will back me up on this. Nice try.

You did remember Diana wondering why they didn't stop fighting after Ludendorff was killed, right? They did RIGHT after Ares was defeated. It was right there, no one announced the armistice was signed, the Germans snapped out of whatever murderous rage they were in and started hugging the Allied soldiers, like it was their freaking decision as to whether or not to stop fighting.

I can't believe you're actually telling me I'm wrong about this. There is nothing to argue, it's RIGHT THERE IN THE FILM, PLAIN AS DAY.

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Yes, I saw them hugging. It's there is the film. SO WHAT!?! A handful of people who just survived a massive fiery explosion hugging each other does not mean that ALL the soldiers -- MILLIONS of soldiers -- on the Western Front, the Italian Front, at sea, in Africa, the Middle East, ALL of them suddenly dropped their weapons and started singing "An Die Freude". And if Diana singlehandedly ended the war, please explain why the warring sides were on the verge of signing an armistice before she ever even showed up. You keep ignoring that part.

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THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE! THEY STARTED HUGGING AS SOON AS ARES WAS DEFEATED!

REWATCH IT!

Jesus!

Were you half-asleep?

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I JUST SAID ABOVE IT HAPPENED!!! REREAD IT!

But what happened was a HANDFUL of guys. You saw NOTHING about all the other millions of soldiers in the war.

And you're still IGNORING my question: if Diana singlehandedly ended the war, please explain why the warring sides were on the verge of signing an armistice before she ever even showed up.

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1. Obviously if the handful stopped fighting for no reason when Diana killed Ares, the rest did too. This is how stupid this movie was. I think you're in denial. It was shown that he was manipulating everyone into going to war. This isn't even up for debate.

2. Both sides were up to sign the armistice. Ares was manipulating Ludendorff into doing something rash to continue it. The movie's rationale was that once Wonder Woman killed Ares, everyone caught sense and decided to stop fighting.

It's a stupid movie. Any more questions or are you going to continue making yourself look stupid?

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1. Is pure assumption on your part. Sorry, your assumptions are not facts. It is STATED, that he was manipulating everyone into fighting. What we see on screen supports that he has influence, but NOT that it is all powerful. In fact, the movie shows that his influence is NOTHING NEAR as powerful as what Diana believed. She believed men were fighting solely because of Ares' influence. It's revealed in the movie that men fight because they are flawed, fallen creatures, and Ares just gives them the means to unleash the baser, more malignant passions that they have all on their own, and to indulge in the violent conflicts that they launch all on their own. To use your own words: THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE!

REWATCH IT!

Jesus!


2. Ares wasn't manipulating Ludendorf to continue the armistice, he was manipulating him to try and stop it and launch a new German offensive to continue the war.

You're just straight up ignoring anything that doesn't fit your interpretation. And if you thought it was a stupid movie, why are you wasting time commenting on it?

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It's a highly intelligent movie both in terms of the surface narrative and the allegorical story it conveys.

It did seem odd that Ares was actually helping to promote the armistice while seeming to help WW and Steve to stop Ludendorf's plans for continuing the war. Did he want to keep them busy and out of the way so that he could push the Armistice agreement to set the stage for a building resentment as a fertile ground for a later second very deadly global conflict, ie. WW2? If WW had allied herself with him perhaps he would have dispensed with his plans to work quietly behind the scenes to create war, and instead wreak havoc directly to destroy human civilisation.

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He was promoting the armistice because he was trying to get all the other countries to lay off Germany for long enough so that Ludendorf could put together his sneak attack.

What's less clear to me is why he funded the trip for Diana and Steve to invade Germany. Maybe he was hoping Diana would start to believe man was more corrupt if she saw the horrors of war on the front up close?

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I believe he did say something like that. He said he wanted to kill her as soon as he saw her, but then thought she might join him if she saw what humanity was like.

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Lol, if you hated Wonder woman so much, why you keep coming back here?
Just ignore and move on.
Trollbait failure.

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That's my right, have a nice day, shill.

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well, this was entertaining.

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"I regret even continuing this argument for as long as I have."

Because you lost?

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That is great to hear. I always like it when they make strong female characters who are not made strong by putting men down. I heard this was not the slightest bit anti-male which is an excellent achievement considering the current climate.
Glad to see people not making movies about males vs females and just focusing on making them great through a great story and acting.

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Rey excels in her competencies: She can pilot, she's good with electronics, she knows how to fight, and despite her early memories being blocked by trauma, she is still a Force user who was trained as a child.... trained by Luke. That last part is the foundation of her entire life: Jedi training during youth. After that, she had to fend for herself for basically two decades.

Rey still has her failures, too. She got scared and got captured after wandering away from Maz's castle (lol that had autocorrected to Mao). She also took her time during the last Kylo fight before finally deciding to use some actual combat, instead of trying the same lightsaber attack over and over (seriously, she looks like she panicked and forgot what she knows, she keeps trying to do the same forward thrust and Kylo just brushes it off every time).

She isn't made to look good at the expense of Finn, because Finn is exactly who he needs to be: He was raised as a child soldier and has had limited experiences. He mostly knows how to help construct a base, and the basics of how to be a Stormtrooper (though he didn't have any length of experience in that field, since his first mission was his last).

Finn has no experience in the world. He has grown up within an insular militaristic organization where he only needed to be qualified for one job, then he trained for a new one and quickly had a moral quandary against actually being a trooper. I'd bet a huge chunk of his First Order training was more propaganda and obedience conditioning than anything else.

LASTLY on Finn, if you think Rey would only be realistic if all males in the story were more competent than her, and she was not superior to any of them, then that is just insipid. Poe is certainly VERY competent --- Does Poe ALSO "male bash" by being made to look better in contrast to Finn? No, you'd never say something like that, because Poe and Finn are both male, so it doesn't matter.

Seeing the sexism yet?

Kylo, similarly, is exactly who he needs to be based on his character. He also had to be injured and even more emotionally fragmented in order to eventually stop beating Rey during the lightsaber fight, AND Rey had to overcome him by concentrating on the light side of the Force. Plus, she got the upper hand at the end, but didn't actually defeat him, as the fight was ended by the terrain.

Plus, there are so many "Marty" Stu's who have never been complained about, overly-competent male characters who are just accepted and even celebrated. Many of these male characters have historically been paired with "damsels in distress" that they must save, yet I doubt you would care about them being made to look good by contrasting them against a female character who does nothing.

But you wouldn't care about that, because the character is male. Males in movies can be overly-competent all they want, apparently.

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