My friend and I couldn't figure out why there were so many people involved from India. I realize that it takes a gazillion animators to produce a film of this caliber, but was it necessary to have so many foreigners, if this is U.S.A. made? Just curious; nothing more. Can anyone explain?
share[deleted]
How utterly fascinating! I had no idea. Thanx for your consideration in explaining the whole process. Yes, it is extremely sad, Jim. In a roundabout way I was friends with Wolfgang Reitherman (his wife, Janie, actually) who was one of Disney's original 8 animators . . way back when.
Sigh .. learn something every day, huh? More outsourcing; killin' this country in so many ways. Rats!
Have a terrific week-end and again, wherever you are, thank you for responding so quickly .. and for your insight.
Jeanie
Orange County, CA
How utterly fascinating! I had no idea. Thanx for your consideration in explaining the whole process. Yes, it is extremely sad, Jim. In a roundabout way I was friends with Wolfgang Reitherman (his wife, Janie, actually) who was one of Disney's original 8 animators . . way back when.But free trade is building/enhancing the world in so many more ways!!! share
Sigh .. learn something every day, huh? More outsourcing; killin' this country in so many ways. Rats!
Have a terrific week-end and again, wherever you are, thank you for responding so quickly .. and for your insight
No it's not. It's leading to inequality and the exploitation of resources - nothing more.
shareNo it's not. It's leading to inequality and the exploitation of resources - nothing more.The reason some people live off a dollar a day, is not that they`re stupid, but restrictions on trade/migration. People outside of Europe, North America, Japan are fully capable of doing what people in Europe, North America, Japan do, and if they are allowed to offer their services, we will see global income equality, as opposed to what we have today, i.e. extreme income inequality. share
You ignore so much in terms of what makes free trade useful and advantageous which is why you don't comprehend how global income equality through free trade is not at all possible.
People live off a dollar a day because people are influential enough to keep them there. It's very simple. It's exploiting markets and exploiting financial regulations to favour a small tiny minority. That is why there is free trade - to make money quicker and faster at the expense of those who have less in pockets of the world where they live with people with even less.
Then they can use their governments to create wars, drug problems, in-fighting and other activities as long as they remain rich. Some studies in economics is required here and the trade in drugs.
The fact you think people in outside of the developed nations are fully capable of doing this is laughable considering you said with such pride that free trade will aid the world. My God dear you are so out of touch with ugliness in our faces that I seem to realise very quickly why the world is in the state it is in.
By the way, no I am not left wing, socialist, communist - just a well read and published economics students.
People live off a dollar a day because people are influential enough to keep them thereInfluential via the government, i.e. via regulation, i.e. the opposite of free trade?
It's exploiting markets and exploiting financial regulations to favour a small tiny minorityExploiting via the government, i.e. via regulation, i.e. the opposite of free trade?
That is why there is free trade - to make money quicker and faster at the expense of those who have less in pockets of the world where they live with people with even lessWe don`t have free trade, we have mixed-/planned economies, we have tons of regulation/manipulation/distortions of trade/monetary systems/prices of credit etc.
Then they can use their governments to create wars, drug problems, in-fighting and other activities as long as they remain richHow can one use a government who "does not intervene"(free trade) to "create wars, drug problems, in-fighting and other activities""?
Some studies in economics is required here and the trade in drugsIsn`t the governments ban on drugs(i.e. the opposite of free trade), that makes the drug trade extremely profitable?
The fact you think people in outside of the developed nations are fully capable of doing this is laughable considering you said with such pride that free trade will aid the world. My God dear you are so out of touch with ugliness in our faces that I seem to realise very quickly why the world is in the state it is in.I`m a norwegian, and I claim that the avergae citizen of a third world country is fully cabable of performing the work an average norwegian performs with a salary of $72 500 a year. And I claim that it`s the government intervention on a global scale(on behalf of special interest groups, i.e. nationalists/racists/egotists etc) that prevents a more even distribution of goods/services/buying power internationally, not non-existent free trade, market economy etc.
Just because you said opposite of free trade doesn't mean there are effects of free trade. You completely miss the point that free trade is only possible because it is cheap elsewhere. If it wasn't cheap elsewhere you'd stay where you are.
It's very simple when you think about it. You're assuming that the same rules can exist everywhere. That's a pretty naive ideology considering the reason (as I illustrated and you pointed out but you don't see that) is, the west corrupt officials and banking systems (another thing you missed and ignored just to disagree) to encourage a particular exchange to make free trade admirable.
It's this admirable nature of that creates this.
Then you talk about drugs and you can't seem to connect everything together.
Just because you are idealistic, it doesn't mean you follow an ideology and that is where you fail in understanding what was being explained to you.
Just because you said opposite of free trade doesn't mean there are effects of free trade.You`re saying that even though people(with low wages) could freely move to places with higher wages, they would not be able to do so, or even though companies could freely move to places where wages were lower(than were they are located now), they would not be able to do so?
You completely miss the point that free trade is only possible because it is cheap elsewhere.Why wouldn`t free reade be possible if we had global wage equality(wages ain`t the only criteria when choosing were to live, or were to locate a business)?
If it wasn't cheap elsewhere you'd stay where you are.If there was equality in the world, there wouldn`t be any reason for people to move to a place where wages were higher(if wages were the only incentive), or any reason for companies to move factories etc to places were wages were lower(if wages were the only incentive).
It's very simple when you think about it. You're assuming that the same rules can exist everywhere.Why can`t the same rules exist everywhere, i.e. rules that protect individual sovereignty, freedom/liberty to relocate, seek employment elsewhere etc?
That's a pretty naive ideology considering the reason (as I illustrated and you pointed out but you don't see that) is, the west corrupt officials and banking systems (another thing you missed and ignored just to disagree) to encourage a particular exchange to make free trade admirable.It`s the corrupt officials/government mandated banking systems(fiat-monetary system etc), i.e. government intervention/regulations etc, that I think should be abolished.
It's this admirable nature of that creates this.Yes, the government intervention by corrupt officials working on behalf of special interest groups.
Then you talk about drugs and you can't seem to connect everything together.Drugs are banned by corrupt government officials/politicians, making drugs a very lucrative business for criminals, and as a result of that making demand for police force and the weapons produced by the military industrisal complex(i.e. special interest groups that benefit from the intervention by corrupt government officials).
Just because you are idealistic, it doesn't mean you follow an ideology and that is where you fail in understanding what was being explained to you.What have you explained? Aren`t you basically saying that government intervention creates the problems, but you will not admit that the abolishment of government interventiuon, would make the problems that arise as an effect of government intervention disappear, to a large extant? share
It's very peculiar how you respond to posts by responding to parts of the post and not the whole. Do you think when somebody talks they are talking in bits and giving numerous responses? Do you interrupt people when they speak? It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. All you indicate by replying like this as is visible with your response as well is
a) you do not understand what is being spoken of here.
b) You are idealistic, hoping to be part of an ideology but you don't understand the ideology considering what you are saying about free trade and therefore your idealism is flawed.
c) Considering b, you will never grasp what is going on because you haven't questioned what you are saying on a practical sense
d) You talk about drugs and miss the point again.
What is the point in replying to something you have no idea about. If I say something and you don't understand it because you repeat yourself why is there any relevance is what is occurring?
It's very peculiar how you respond to posts by responding to parts of the post and not the whole.I respond to the claims etc, that I disagree with.
Do you think when somebody talks they are talking in bits and giving numerous responses?You are writing, and I`m pointing out every claim you make that I disagree with, and why I disagree.
Do you interrupt people when they speak?You`re not speaking, and if people were saying something based on a premise that is incorrect, I`d let them know.
It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. All you indicate by replying like this as is visible with your response as well isWhat exactly don`t I understand?
a) you do not understand what is being spoken of here.
What ideology are you refering to?
b) You are idealistic, hoping to be part of an ideology but you don't understand the ideology
considering what you are saying about free trade and therefore your idealism is flawed.What is it I write about free trade that is flawed?
c) Considering b, you will never grasp what is going on because you haven't questioned what you are saying on a practical senseWhat "practical sense" are you refering to?
d) You talk about drugs and miss the point again.What point am I missing?
What is the point in replying to something you have no idea about.What don`t I know?
If I say something and you don't understand it because you repeat yourself why is there any relevance is what is occurring?You`re right, I don`t understand that sentence, especially the second half. share
Your last post highlights exactly what I was saying in the previous post and how what you are doing is utterly flawed and conversation with you is impossible since you don't understand free trade or English. Also, it would be wise to learn how to use an apostrophe. Even more so if you read some books.
shareYour last post highlights exactly what I was saying in the previous post and how what you are doing is utterly flawedWhat are you refering to?
and conversation with you is impossible since you don't understand free tradeWhat is free trade?
or English.What are you refering to?
Also, it would be wise to learn how to use an apostrophe.What was the mistake?
Even more so if you read some books.I`ve read some books! share
Bottom line is, nationalism is the way to go. Give your own people the work, and the money to go with it, to spend locally (rather than sending it all over the world.) Buy local. Let the rest do as they will in their own markets.
Just say "no" to cheap overseas labour. It's much more important than saying "no" to locally grown marijuana.
Bottom line is, nationalism is the way to go. Give your own people the work, and the money to go with it, to spend locally (rather than sending it all over the world.) Buy local.Why?
Let the rest do as they will in their own markets.Why not include them in the global market?
Just say "no" to cheap overseas labour.Why?
It's much more important than saying "no" to locally grown marijuana.What if people benefit from marijuana? share
It would help, this is advice by the way, if you went back and understood what people were saying.
Then I'd do a little, actually a lot of reading on marketing.
I'd also consider reading and understanding exchange rate markets and currency markets too.
Basically, you know nothing.
It would help, this is advice by the way, if you went back and understood what people were saying.What are you saying?
Then I'd do a little, actually a lot of reading on marketing.Why?
I'd also consider reading and understanding exchange rate markets and currency markets too.You`re refering to fiat-currency?
Basically, you know nothing.You don`t mean that? share
and this is what you use " ' "
Not this " ` ".
Considering the numerous times you use it and with the arrogance, you should have known that by know but this doesn't surprise me considering your ability to comprehend what is being spoken of, responding to it with a clear indication of lack of insight and then arrogantly assuming there is some benefit to what you are saying shows the flaws that smother you.
and this is what you use " ' "Can you be more specific in regards to the flaws? share
Not this " ` ".
Considering the numerous times you use it and with the arrogance, you should have known that by know but this doesn't surprise me considering your ability to comprehend what is being spoken of, responding to it with a clear indication of lack of insight and then arrogantly assuming there is some benefit to what you are saying shows the flaws that smother you.
It isn't your market. I hold shares in DWA as it is listed on the NASDAQ. I am a Briton living on the other side of the Atlantic and want what is part of my pension fund to perform well.
Protectionism is still rife in the USA, you can only hold back the tide of true capitalism for so long, not the pretend American capitalism which is really just hegemony.
Wow. You are a retard, aren't you?
Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!
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As someone who works in this industry and personally knows Dreamworks employees who worked on this film, I feel the need to correct many aspects of your statement.
1. Sending work to DW India is not outsourcing. It is simply another studio DW setup in an area outside LA. They also have a studio in Redwood city where most of Megamind was worked on. That film was not outsourced either. It is true that animation is outsourced all the time to many countries. The same is true of SFX in live action movies. But most of the major feature animation companies do their work in house. If they want cheap labor that's what interns and apprentices are for.
2. The idea that the DW people over here are "GOOD American animators" while the people in India are not is contradictory. The workers in India were trained by DW employees from the US and in fact many of them stayed on in India during the course of the film. A few of the had to fly back to the US recently for the opening. So in many cases its the same people just working on another continent. I'm pretty sure they're skills did not evaporate on the flight over. Also in a country of 1.3 Billion people you'd have to work hard to not find talented people. I imagine recruiters were tripping over them during the vetting process.
3. The idea that DW would spend millions to set up a relatively small brand new studio overseas to save money is a bit silly. Yes the employees likely work for less. But it will be a very long time before DW makes back the start up money. Remember that in most cases, sending work overseas means using a company and facilities that already exist. Not the case with DW India. One of the major reasons to have the studio overseas is to have a 24 hour pipeline. Indian animators can work on a scene while LA supervisors sleep. Then the supervisors here watch the work, make notes and can even send rigs off to get fixed while the Indian animators sleep. They are doing the same thing in all sorts of industries.
4. Animation has never been run by animators. Walt Disney was a business man first and foremost. He might have been involved the creative process, but Milt Kahl he wasn't. In all honesty, I don't think I'd like a studio run by animators. We're bad at math and too nice. The best studio heads are smart enough to run the business end and hire great people to do the creative stuff.
Sorry its long, but I like to be thorough. And before you label me a DW stooge, remember I don't work there. I just know lots of people who do.
[deleted]
Thank YOU for your explicit and honest opinion of the process DW goes thru.
I thought i was only receiving 3 responses, but when I just checked, I see that there have been 10-11 since my original question was posted. It is fantastic to read various explanations. The majority commends the use of Indian animators, the reason behind doing as they do, so I must go along with that.
It IS a very big world, but with all our technology, it seems prudent to have animators on both sides of it . . toiling away, to make a great movie. They aren't for just kids anymore . . I have all the Shrek films.
I can't wait to share some of these with my friend. She'll be just as amazed.
Jeanie
Orange County, CA
morimuraseira is absolutely right.
As someone who worked on the movie from India, I felt pretty disappointed when I saw the original post.
Outsourcing happens when you hire a different company to do your work. The people working in the different company just does their thing and probably moves onto a new "client". DW India is like a third arm of DreamWorks (second being PDI/DreamWorks in Redwood City) and so its not outsourcing.
Animation data freely flows between the three studios of DreamWorks and when a movie is nearing completion the studio pulls in people from all the different places to get it done. DW India is just one of them.
And people wondering about the quality, the last thing DreamWorks will do is compromise on the quality. We were held to the same high standards, reviewed by the same creative heads (Director, VFX Sup, Art Director etc), trained by the same Heads of Departments - some of them even flew down to India to personally train just so that we understand what Puss in Boots was all about.
If you saw the movie and couldn't say what was worked where - then we've done our jobs. And we hope we did.
Is it technically Outsourcing? No
Is it Offshoring? Yes
Offshoring is defined as the movement of a business process done at a company in one country to the same or another company in another, different country. Almost always work is moved because of a lower cost of operations in the new location.
Dreamworks did this mainly because labor costs are 40% lower in India, and animating movies is labor intensive.
Bottom line - less Americans working.
Thanks for putting things into perspective...the minute someone sees "India" or any other Asian country involved, they jump to outsourcing then start complaining about good American workers losing work to third world cheap labor.
shareMost of Puss in Boots was done here, but a portion of it was outsourced to Dreamworks' Indian studio that usually does it's TV stuff like the Penguins show and Father of the Pride.I`m sure the the GOOD indian animators love their craft too, but they`re not as greedy as their american counterparts. And when the "unartistic financial business major types" make the decision to employ more GOOD animators who love their craft(at a lower price pr animator), they`ll end up with more animation for the same price. share
The sad truth is, it's cheaper to employ foreign animators then American animators. You can make a TV show or feature film in India or Korea with animation that is "passible" for way WAAAYY cheaper then hiring GOOD American animators who will produce good quality animation. It's the unartistic financial business major types who make the decision to go overseas... not the artists who love their craft.
It's been going on in TV animation for a long time and now, unfortunately, some feature studios are doing the same thing.
It's really sad to me how the animation industry isn't run by... well... animators anymore.
Who cares?
That is all.
(maybe if the movie was bad you could complain...... I don't care who they hire)
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You Tell him, Jim! I was really taken back by his reply . . but then, it takes all kinds. And perhaps he didn't quite understand the meaning of my question in the first place. Or?
share"People who actually care about animation as an artform and not a business. "
What a moronic comment. People from India can't be artistic? What a sad attitude. I sense your real beef has nothing to do with art at all.
Wow! What's with the attitude? I cared enough to inquire . . there were scads of Indian animators and I thought that strange. It had nothing to do with the quality of the movie. I "assumed" we had more than enough right here in So. California. But now I know why they chose to outsource. That is all.
shareAs I understand things, DreamWorks Animation was not interested in creating the Penguins television series, rather they wanted to focus on feature films. So, Nickelodeon produced the series, which was animated by Paprikaas Interactive Studios, in Bangalore, India.
DreamWorks started creating their television seasonal specials, and decided to work with Paprikaas more directly. That is where the DreamWorks Dedicated Unit concept was born. There are more than two hundred people in Bangalore working exclusively on animation for DreamWorks. And, with Puss in Boots, they have started working on significant portions of feature films.
This is not outsourcing. Sony hires a lot of US workers, but you wouldn't consider that outsourcing. Many US companies have offices worldwide, and not always because it is less expensive. The realization was that India was a perfect choice for the company. English is a common language in India, making that location more ideal than some other places. India also provides legal recourse for intellectual property theft issues, where some other countries do not offer similar protections. DreamWorks had a working relationship with an animation company wanting to expand their workforce and improve their recruiting by using the DreamWorks name. The people working at the dedicated unit are well-compensated and happy to be working in animation, to go along with their schooling, training and experience from working at other film, animation, and/or technical companies. So, the fact of the matter is that there is a pool of professionally qualified and extremely talented artists in India, and circumstances came together for us to be connected with them. And, it has been positive for everyone involved. I mean, just look at the results!
I hope this answers your questions.
I work for DreamWorks Animation. Everything submitted is my own opinion and I do not speak for the studio in an official capacity.
http://www.totallygeek.com/
Holy Frijoles! What an amazing explanation!
You're fabulous . . . cannot thank you enough for really giving me the whole "skinny" on exactly why Dreamworks contracts out like that. Thanks so much.
Actually, I am surprised at the responses I've had from my little question. Yours is the 3rd, and of course, the most concrete that I have read.
Jeanie
Orange County
Thank you. I have worked at DreamWorks Animation since 2007, and I lived in Bangalore for all of 2009. The team in India is great to work with and we (Stateside) look forward to their growth and continued work on future projects.
http://www.totallygeek.com/
You lucky dog, you! Who wouldn't want to be employed by either DW or Pixar.
Wish my son could get a cool job like yours. But he's an electrician's apprentice . . so far removed from you artistic types.
Have a great week-end.
Jeanie
Well u dont get much curious when american movies earn millions of dollars from countries other than US, hence why get curious when once in a while a hollywood movie employs a few foreigners.....????
shareWish my son could get a cool job like yours.
And heck, Peter Jackson 'outsources' to New Zealand and everyone goes nuts over his films.
In some ways it is outsourcing, cause it's the corporations looking for the cheapest employment base to make their product to *deliver* to another market.
If it was a movie mainly destined for the India market, (say like an Ikea distro center) then it's not outsourcing, but this movie was mainly for other markets.
I agree there's top notch talent in India, but this is outsourcing--look at the numbers: the production costs for PiB was around $130mil, which is cheap compared to the last 3 Pixar movies at *over* $200mil. And that PiB production time was fairly short at 2yrs for a good storyline compared to 3-4yrs. This is a huge win for Dreamworks... and we know the foreign box office numbers will have excellent trends.
Dreamworks got their money's worth by paying for lots of animators to do the job (in India), instead of a state of the art datacenter, free lunches, a pool and a volleyball court (as that mentioned company in Emeryville).
And... there maybe a India production team, but for all we know, they could be using a server farm in... Ohio.
Sorry, but you really do not know what you are talking about with respect to DreamWorks Animation. First off, India was brought in late in the game to work on any of the segments for Puss in Boots, a production which took no less time than any other of our other feature films. Next, our international business rivals domestic box office these days, so we create a product for a worldwide audience. India's theater count is ever increasing and that country accounts for much of our revenue. We are not Pixar and do not do business in the same way they do: none of our production budgets are anywhere close to 200m. Puss in Boots had a production cost quite similar to our other productions. The computing resources and data center functionality matches what we use in California. In fact, due to the age of the environment, they are running some things more up to date than what we currently have in California. Finally, the perks you listed are inconsistent between sites, including our folks in New York, London and elsewhere.
http://www.totallygeek.com/
Peter Jackson outsources to NZ? He's a New Zealander and he lives in New Zealand. I don't see that as the same thing.
shareThat's so sad that even our animated movies are being outsourced. Seriously, for a movie that's going to generate hundreds of millions of dollars, they couldn't afford to keep this in house?
shareBob ~ read some of the other responses, esp the one from Jim. I printed two of the responses that were the best explanations. Really, it will change your mind on this. It did mine. extraordinary. we are so lucky to have this form of communication in order to enlighten ourselves. Thanx for your input. Jeanie
shareif no one has pointed it out yet, tax breaks are also part of it. In both India and Africa many tax breaks are available for animation companies in comparison with America and in particular here in England. Many English animators I know I have been headhunted by companies and then told they would have to move to India.
shareThank You Square_Zebra for yet another reply. You'd be amazed at all the wonderful people in our world . . responding, giving terrific answers to my inquiry. I have learned SO much on just this subject.
Jeanie
Orange County, CA
America won the Communists lost :(
It's called Capitalism and a free market, the cheaper the better, don't be a sore looser, if you don't like Capitalism you can move to Cuba or North Korea.
WHAT in the world are you getting at? It was a simple question, one that I asked last year, for cryin' out loud.
I needed to know . . dumb ass. I'm not looking to go out of the great USA for any reason on earth. I received many responses, and all were excellent in their own way. You, are SICK!@!
[deleted]
By what divine right should we get jobs over others? India is a country full of, from what I can tell, extremely hard working people. Having pride in one's nation and not wanting other nations to get their fair share are two different things. They deserve what they earn. Totallygeek.com dropped knowledge bombs all over this thread.
shareThat doesn't mean we have to give them our jobs. Let them set up their OWN industries, and let us keep our jobs here.
I mean, christ, if I have a problem with my gas bill, my MONOPOLY gas company (I'm in Alberta, dealing with Direct Energy) demands I talk to someone in China about it - and I have to give them my PERSONAL INFO to do it. I'm glad I'm moving, and I hope the next place has a different company, preferably one that has its call centre HERE.
I refuse to deal with Bell for the same reason - at least when I talk to Telus people, I can bloody well understand them.
Although it's partly our own society's fault. We need to stop filling our kids' heads with delusions of grandeur crap, and tell them that straight As in high school does NOT make them too good to shovel horse *beep* or answer phones, and does NOT mean that they can whine and demand a great-paying cushy no-work job for their entire post-school lives.
And parents need to stop putting trades down as a viable career option for their kids. In fact, the only safe job nowadays IS a non-exportable trade (and with "affirmative action" or "employment 'equity'" or whatever you want to call it, combined with mass immigration from cheap-labour countries, you'd better make your own local business out of it, at least if you're on the wrong end of those programmes, which means basically "whites need not apply" ... and from what I've seen, immigrants only hire their own, and are allowed to do so, and are praised for it. Don't you try to do that, though, white man; if you don't have enough visible majority-"minority" type people, you will run afoul of the law.)
[deleted]
Because Dream works is now owned by Indian...
That is reliance group.
The USA, Canada, Australia, and other countries similar need to make laws barring its national industries from outsourcing to scab countries like India and China - it's killing our economy, and denying work to our own.
Dearheart, I felt the same way until I read various other replies from "those in the know". Have you?
These large animation companies have outsourced because the OWN part or all of the other animation places, like in India. One gentlemen wrote that while their staff in India are working, we're asleep here, and vice versa. So they get double the amount done in less time . . with excellent results.
I never dreamed I'd be getting so many responses to my question. They come in once or twice a month and I wrote that ages ago. So, perhaps you'll better understand if you read the other people's responses & reasoning. It sure opened up my eyes~! Have a wonderful day, wherever you live. Jeanie
You don't need people working on the other side of the planet to have people working all the time.
Ever hear of shift work?
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