titaniumticker's facts are all wrong


I'm tired of people like you, who use flawed information and bad facts to argue a point. It's dishonest and shameful.

This statement is demonstratably incorrect. "Prices of gasoline and other petroleum products, adjusted for inflation, are lower than they have been for most of the last 150 years....inflation-adjusted we're at the 2nd lowest price in history. "

The current price (January 2006) of oil is [68 dollars per barrel. In January 2005, the oil price was 42 dollars per barrel. Adjusted for inflation, the Median US and World Price of oil from 1869 to 2004 is 15 dollars. Oil is far more expensive than the historical average.

We are not at the second lowest price in history, but we are at the second highest price in the last 100 years. (The highest was in the 1970's oil shocks.) The lowest price in history occured at the start of the great depression, and the second lowest price occured several years later.

Sources:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5612507/
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1869.gif


Your numbers are bad. Be wary of anything the USGS says. They have a very poor track record. For example, in 1972, the USGS predicted that US oil production wouldn't peak until well into the 21st century, despite the fact that US domestic oil production had already peaked, as Hubbert predicted. The USGS's numbers are deeply flawed overestimations.

We do not have 3,000 billion remaining barrels of oil. We have approximately 1,144 barrels.

Oil discovery follows a bell curve, just like production does. Oil discovery peaked in 1964 and has dwindled to almost nothing in recent years. Major oil finds peaked in 1964. In 2000, there were 13 finds, in 2001 six, in 2002 two and in 2003 none. Three major new projects will come onstream in 2007 and three in 2008. For the following years, none have yet been scheduled. Currently our oil consumption rate is six times our oil discovery rate.

Sources:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1233533,00.html
http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/PetrolIndustry/q1.htm
http://www.energybulletin.net/6429.html
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2005/05/our-petroleum-predicament.html
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/duncan/usgs2000.htm

Peak oil isn’t a hypothesis, it’s an observed fact, and it’s already happening. In most countries, oil production has already peaked, and is declining. Only a handful of countries have yet to peak, and every year, a few of these are crossed off the list. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria haven’t peaked yet, but it is predicted by oil economists that they will peak in the years 2009-2015. Globally, oil will peak in the year 2011.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves#Countries_that_have_already_passed_their_production_peak

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TT is the only guy here will credible, calm, and reasonable information. You're in with the same idiots who predicted it would peak Thanksgiving day...hmmm?

Your bell curve was debunked in 4 of Titanium's links, why don't you look at them before making sensationalist, alarmist claims.

I'm going to run my hummer in my garage.

Adios, good luck with the apocolypse, i'll come drag you out of your basement in 10 years when you realize you're full of *beep*

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Predicting the end of oil era has been a venerable (albeit fruitless) pseudo-intellectual pursuit for most of the 20th century. This Nostradamian pastime regained new vigor during the late 1990s when (mostly retired geologists) Colin Campbell, Jean Laherrère, L.F. Ivanhoe, Richard Duncan and Kenneth Deffeyes -- and their groupies gathered under the WWW umbrellas of peakoil.net, peakoil.com, peakoil.org and hubbertpeak.com --- flooded the media with catastrophist tales of imminent peak of the global oil production to be followed by a precipitous decline of oil availability resulting in the demise of modern civilization. As self-appointed prophets are want to do, these wholesalers of fear have not been cautious when outlining the consequences. In Ivanhoe’s rendering “the inevitable doomsday” will be followed by “economic implosion” that will make “many of the world's developed societies look more like today's Russia than the US.” In Duncan’s telling there is massive unemployment, breadlines, widespread homelessness and a catastrophic end of industrial civilization.


Kenneth Deffeyes, an experienced petroleum geologist and a former professor at Princeton University, has been the most puzzling member of the peak oil cult. As a scientist he must know that the real world is permeated by uncertainties, that complex realities should not be reduced to simplistic slogans aimed to gain media attention, and that (as even a brief retrospective will demonstrate) making precise point predictions is a futile endeavor. Yet he set all of this aside and proceeded to write about the peak of global oil production in a way that leaves no room for any doubt (“no initiative put in place starting today can have a substantial effect on the peak production year”), that portrays the world’s energy use merely as a matter of supply (utterly ignoring demand) and, most incredibly, he went farther than any of his confrères by predicting not just the year but the very day when the world’s oil output was to peak.


On January 14, 2004 he wrote (albeit admitting that “it is a bit silly”) that


“we can now pick a day to celebrate passing the top of the mathematically smooth Hubbert curve: Nov 24, 2005. It falls right smack dab on top of Thanksgiving Day 2005. It sounds a little sick to observe a gloomy day, but in San Francisco they still observe April 18 as the anniversary of the 1906 earthquake.”


On June 5, 2004 he confirmed that “I'm still standing by my prediction that the smoothed world production curve will peak on Thanksgiving Day, 2005.” The day came and went -- so what is the verdict? In the strictest sense Deffeyes’s proposition is not provable by consulting any statistics: oil producing countries do not report their extraction on a daily basis. And even if it worked in terms of a mathematically smooth curve we would have to wait for many months to complete such a derivation.


But there is no need for waiting. Amidst the ocean of uncertainties concerning the future of global oil production there are (as Rumsfeld, correctly, would have it) two great known unknowns: we do not know with any satisfactory confidence the ultimate amount of oil that we will be able to extract from the Earth’s crust; and we do not know the eventual extent of market reaction to substantial price shifts (a plain way of saying that the elasticity of crude oil’s consumption is an elusive variable). And because we do not know either the eventual maximum of potential (resource-limited) extraction or the actual level of (market-driven) production we cannot know with any readily quantifiable certainty the year (forget the day) when the global oil output will peak.


As far as resources go, peak-of-oil catastrophists believe that there is virtually nothing left to be discovered while both the theoretical understanding of sedimentary basin geology and the fact that large parts of the crust (including some regions in the Middle East, most of West Africa and huge chunks of Siberia) have yet to be explored with intensity comparable to that of the North American drilling point to further substantial discoveries. Acting on this, both national and multinational oil companies are now engaged in extensive drilling aimed at adding millions of barrels of new capacity in the coming years.


As for the market reaction, the response, eventually, does come. After OPEC nearly quintupled its oil price in 1973 the global oil consumption declined by merely 1.5% in 1974 and by 1976 it was nearly 4% above the 1973 level. Oil use may have been inelastic to the initial quintupling but it surely responded to an additional near-trebling that took place between 1978 and 1981: by 1983 the world’s oil consumption fell by 11%.


The same forces have been at work recently. The day before the Thanksgiving the price per barrel went down by 50 cents, during the preceding month it declined by about 8% and since August it fell by about 17%; it fell again the day after Thanksgiving when it stood, in inflation-adjusted terms, more than 20% below the historic high reached in the spring of 1981. None of this indicates a market spooked by the prospect of global extraction never surpassing the Thanksgiving rate! Headlines and attention grabbing have been always about new bad news, about caricaturing complexities and about reducing the message to the lowest understandable denominator. But scientists should leave this “information” niche to the National Enquirer or to Dr. Phil.


Undoubtedly, there is a finite amount of oil in the Earth’s crust, but even if we were to know it to the last drop we could not predict how much of it we will eventually extract (much of it will be simply too expensive to get out, or too unappealing compared to other choices). Undoubtedly, there is continuing (and relatively slowly increasing) oil demand in affluent economies and there is rising demand in China and India, but we do not know how fast the global use will grow and at what levels it will start eventually leveling off because that rate is determined not only by the volume of recoverable oil but also by the fuel’s price and by the cleverness and rapidity of our technical advances. Inevitably, sometime in the future global extraction of liquid oil will start declining but we will not be able to pinpoint that event and it may not be of much interest anyway.


The story of the modern world is, most fundamentally, one of continuous energy transitions as the leading fuel changed from wood to coal and then from coal to oil. But oil never dominated as much as coal did because of the concurrent diversification into natural gas and into hydro and nuclear electricity. These, and other sources, await further exploitation: there is no reason to believe that we cannot eventually move past the oil era. Difficulties of this transition should not be discounted but they will be the best stimulants of our inventiveness and of our ability to cope with new challenges.

Learn something.

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Your post is just a series of ad hominem attacks, and the entire thing is nothing more than a red herring. It's non sequitur. My post addressed a selection of factual inaccuracies in TT's post. If you want to respond to these, great, otherwise, stop skunking up my thread with mindless and irrelevant hyperbole.

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Aww, that's almost sad to read. You know you've been proved wrong, and know that i'm right. In response, you call it mindless and irrelavent without any supporting evidence. Grow up.

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Are you actually interested in discussing the topic at hand? My post stated:

1) The current inflation adjusted price of oil is the second highest in 100+ years.
2) We have approximately 1144 billion barrals of oil.
3) Currently our oil consumption rate is six times our discover rate.
4) In the majority of countries, oil production is declining.

These claims were a refutation of titaniumticker's bad information. Your post did not respond to these claims, nor did it address anything to do with my post. Your post is no more relavent than the average tail length of a tiger or common genetic mutations in octopuses.

Furthermore, your post plagarizes the article on this page: http://www.techcentralstation.be/120205A.html If you want to take credit for someone else's work, consider remaining more civil next time. Your post is a violation of IMDB policy, (infrigement of copyright).

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LOL, I love how there is no response.

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[deleted]

Speaking as a student of Petroleum geology I should say that economics play a much much much bigger role than anyone realizes. There is always a lag between high oil prices and new technology derived out of necessity, to counter this. Also we make more $ out of every drop of oil now than we ever did, and that number is predicted to grow much faster than the price of oil. Meaning that even if this function remains the same and the price of oil climbs even faster we will still be making more $ per unit volume of oil in say 2015 etc than we do today.

The whole argument that we can not rely on things like the oil sands and oil shales and gas hyrates, clean coal to help with rising oil$ because the energy profit ratio is too low is impressivly stupid and wrong. The very low energy profit ratio for the oilsands number that is badge of pride to everyone who spent 2 hrs reading peak oil websites and books is wrong. These low numbers are from the most difficult steam injection wells about 8 years ago. Don't forget to factor in the close proximity to the consumer when your calculating your energy profit ratios. Or engenering improvments in extraction or improvements in removing the sand from the gain using less heat. There is talk of bulding a nucular power plant to supply the energy needed for these projects for price stablity. ( why use the Natural gas to get steam when your can sell it)

Also ask your self this? How is it possible that the energy profit ratio around the world from conventional oil is going up while the ammount of money that we are able to make off each unit volume of oil is going up?


One of the bigger reasons that new discoveries and reserves seem to be dropping is as a result of not we have found it all but that we are permitted to look in fewer and fewer places for oil due to environmental regulations etc. The Scotian margin is a prime example of this. Regulations and red tape slow the pace of exploration wells thus lowering the number of discoveries. Move to the north about 500 km to the Jean D'Arc Basin and you have huge discoveries as a result of allowing more wells to be drilled.

The price of oil will probably continue to rise but not too fast for strong free market economies to adapt and we are not running out of oil by any measure when you factor in deep wells drilled bellow salt structures that are seismically very difficult to see through (pull up) (Hibernia sized discovery @ 8800m found recently) oil sands, oil shale’s and hell if the price of oil gets high enough we could even someday exploit gas hydrates on the ocean margins along the east coast of Can and the USA.

Oh well we can just burn coal again if I’m wrong.

Oh and too all the anti capilitist (anti anything thats not brutal socalist prison state) bs why don't you go and murder another 100+ million people with your socalist utopia. Also wake me when though some fluke all the made up science that the Kyoto accord is based on comes true and the 2mm annual rise in sea levle washes away Kansas its been that rate ever since evryones favorite global warming measureing date 1850. Which reminds me to ask.. what was around the time the little ice age ended?

Hey but I do like the ideas of the new Urbanization and better use of land. My hope is that that is the effect of rising oil prices. City planning wasn't during the past. We made cities work around cars rather than vice versa. Which is wrong. The film is right in that regard but in regard to this comming disaster of oil depletion they are a tad big sensationlist.





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youre wrong;peak oil is infallible- and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Combining every thinkable energy scource will not even get up near 10% of energy over centuries what a gallon of gasoline can do in a second. Economics is a pseudoscience-what worked in the 70s can't work now. we are irrational animals and locke and smith are dead wrong. malthus, hobbes, darwin and hubbert are infallible. we are overpopulated and the dieoff next year will make the holocaust seem like a bitch slap. No energy scource can save us; we have no choice but to live as in Quest for Fire- Mad Max is only an optimistic outcome of peak oil. Everything else that defined posthistoric society will be second to survival (food production). We are extinct, DOA, hopeless. and anyone who hopes is naive, and anyone who believes in hydrogen is an idiot. On top of all that, Bush will inevitbly declare himself emperor of the fourth reich and we will be in a slavery worse than what happened in the antebellum south in the 1800's. There is absolutely no silver lining whatsoever. Maybe the only honorable thing to do is kill ourselves; living in hell will be paradise compared to being thrown back 5,000 years into the fourth reich. If you deny me go to dieoff.org or lifeaftertheoilcrash.com- they can speak better than I can, because they are never wrong.

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I think the Bushies of the world are finally coming around





give me a stage where this bull here can rage and though I can fight I'd much rather recite.

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[deleted]

It's officially been a year since your last idiotic post, Rjdan. Dieoff next year? Hm...I haven't seen it. You're a *beep* retard.

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That wooshing sound going over your head was you missing the irony. Why are you still here? You've been humiliated enough already. Be gone.

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This isnt gonna be a highly scientific rebuttal, i dont have time. BUT using common sense, on a long enough timescale (you pick: now, 10 years, 20 years, 30... 100 years) do you really think that oil reserves will last, nobody would argue that oil is a finite, FINITE, resource. Nobody would argue that oil is being produced (not discovered, but produced) faster thant we are consuming it. So then, using basic logic, if we look at the fact that oil is being consumed MUCH faster than it is being produced, even if we do discover some new oil fields, eventually, peak oil will occur. Im only in high school, so i dont have any figures available as to when this will happen, but you have got to realize that eventually (most likely in my lifetime) oil will peak and be impossible to reverse. Peak oil doesnt even imply that all the oil is gone, rather that only half is gone (we have reached the PEAK of oil production, not the end) but once it peaks an end is innevitable. You dont need sources to prove this, just a brain. Kicking and screeeming about how it hasnt happened yet will only make the situation worse when it does happen, and it should be clear that it will, regardless of your whining. Instead of calling these "alarmists" retards, you should wonder what exactly humans will do once oil does run out, even if it happens in the 23rd cenutury, by which point if people like you have their way, our situation will be inconceivably worse.

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The big threat facing the global economy right now, is that the search for new oil fields has lapsed into a small concern for the large oil companies. Exxon just posted its second highest ever Q2 profits, but the industry as a whole is shying away from looking for new places to drill. Maybe it is environmental regulations, as our petro student up above suggested. Perhaps its corporate politics. Or the tooth fairy.

Regardless, the problem is that this kind of search and development of petro resources takes investment of capital, energy and time. The third is the most important. The global economy is remarkably stable [i'm shocked it hasn't bounced around a lot more than it does, and i'm deeply suspicious that it doesn't] but rising energy costs will affect the global economy negatively. Even widespread discussion of the negative effects of a slowdown in oil production is dangerous - markets can "panic" [which means that the people speculating on speculations of production panic that they will lose money, and they're a relatively small elite] at the suggestion of bad news. The time it will take to develop the oil sands in Alberta [ignoring for now the environmental repercussions (which include building a freakin' nuclear plant up there!)] may, and I freely admit I'm using the word may here, be longer than we have.

I try to stay informed on current events, and I try to keep tabs on the global energy status quo. I haven't heard anything about massive investments in looking for new oil fields, and certainly I haven't heard a peep about any new discoveries that would really soothe my fraying nerves. Alberta's sands probably will be the solution to North America's immediate problems, but at what cost? Gord Perks [yeah, he's a hippie, but he's a pretty good researcher for a hippie, alright?] wrote a column in our local paper about the massive destruction the current technology to extract energy from the sands will wreak on northern Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the N.W.T. Not something I really want to see, to be honest, despite the fact that it may keep me in vinyl records for the duration of my life [I'm really sad about the fact that records are probably going to be extinct if oil gets scarce]. Something that no-one counting on the oil sands for salvation has mentioned yet is native land claims. They may want nothing to do with oil production even if its lucrative.

Now is the time to do something. Whether that's put a massive amount of investment [corporate subsidies, PPP's, tax incentives, loans, or state-owned investment] into oil R&D, or into alternative energy, or nuclear energy, we need to do something today. If peak oil effects [i.e. demand outstripping the current supply] start to hit within the next ten years, I highly doubt even the most flexible market will be able to adjust. It's a question of logistics, not of faith in the free market system. Conservation is nice, and ultimately I believe that as North Americans we are complete and absolute energy gluttons and natural resource hogs, but we do need to acknowledge that India and China are "coming on-line". They want to drive cars, and consume at a level that North Americans and Europeans do. Our just-in-time economies will be increased by a factor of 2 at least when the majority of Indians and Chinese become a "middleclass" the equivalent of Western middleclasses, alongside the big consumers of energy [industrial and retail]. A serious downturn in production [even if temporary] may cause such devastation in the global economy that we may not be able to recover.

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All I know is that gas in my town Houston, TX is $3.00 per gallon. Thats a fact. Period.

And I am tired of it. And thats my opinion. Period.

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[deleted]

What you say is quite ignorant, if you have no knowledge of economics then i dont believe you should be using inflation without knowing how it started the past 10 years. Inflation has increased because of the rising oil prices and thus causing rising prices of supplies since transportation and other aquiring of the materials costs are also increasing. And i also dont think that peak is a hypothesis since we may have thought we peaked in the 70s because the technology we have now is superior to that of the 70s in that we can find new supplies (a.k.a. the oil on the bottom of oil reserves) with ease and with greater speed, but those reserves on the bottom arent even close to compare with those we found in the 40s-60s. I mean i am also a supporter of rising oil prices since it will decrease demand which thus decreases global warming, slowens the depletion of oil, and increases mass transit on electric.

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There is only one solution, LESS PEOPLE!!!!

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Here Here atraxani

OK I have a different way for people to look at this and hopefully agree. (only a nutcase wouldn't agree)

I just cant understand how people think when we are using more and more oil resources every year that we are not running out!
I have read all and "EVEN IF" (BIG IF) the oil was not going to run out for a long time, isn't it time we looked into renewable cleaner energy anyway?
I mean forget the fact that we would be left with no way to live. Forget all that when we will run out for a minute ok?

TT (I have read your posts and not pointing the finger-just wanted to ask some things), do you agree we WILL run out eventually as it is not renewable?
ok, do you also agree that it is damaging the environment with the massive increase each year in pollutants? (I know you do but had to ask) :)

OK if we agree on them then surely this film, whether it be correct or not will only BENEFIT the entire world?

BENEFITS
1. Cleaner energy to save the planet
2. If we develop cleaner and renewable ways now, then we wont be stuck when it does indeed run out and crying about it and running to nuclear?

So, pretty much I cant see any reason not to turn to other means and investigate and implement them regardless of who is correct.

There is only ONE future and that is NOT oil use.

Come on someone has to take a stand and say enough is enough and big oil business should not rule the world (You may say it is inevitable but hang on if there were other economically and environmentally sound ways and people had a choice then oil companies would not rule)....

Something to think about anyway
Cheers

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"This statement is demonstratably incorrect. "Prices of gasoline and other petroleum products, adjusted for inflation, are lower than they have been for most of the last 150 years....inflation-adjusted we're at the 2nd lowest price in history."

Right on, brother! I admire your well documented post.

And events since you posted (with Petroleum recently exceeding $100/B) have proved you correct.

Here's a chart showing the price per barrel adjusted for inflation.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/27/markets/oil_effects/oil_effects.gif

CBK

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$4 a gallon and $117 a barrel.

You can argue about the speculation of when oil will peak, but the fact of the matter is that oil is a finite source. So what if oil usage peaks "well into the 21st century"? Does that give us the right to procrastinate, to make it harder on us all later on?

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