Between fact and propaganda


For most people, "The End of Suburbia" will read like a mad science fiction film, a horror story that mimics a documentary for dramatic effect. Most people are oblivious there's any serious problem, and everyone interviewed in the documentary has no doubt. And that's too bad, because much of the view of the documentary is not in dispute. In particular, there is practically no dispute:

- worldwide production of cheap (easy to get) petroleum is limited, and is already in deceline in most places.

- the domestic (USA) production of petroleum started to decline in 1970: EXACTLY when M. King Hubbert predicted in 1956 (which gives a lot of credibility to his predictions that worldwide production will start to shrink soon0

- in the USA, the amount of oil *discovered* declined each year for about 30 years before production started to decline. Now, worldwide, discovery has been declning for about 30 years....

My point is none of that is controversial: EVEN THE USA DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY AGREES WITH ALL THOSE POINTS. There's only debate on three things:

1) when will the decline start? (now or in 20 years);

2) how fast will the decline be? (2% a year? or 15% drop off, year after year?); and

3) how much will our way of life need to change to accommodate the decline.

Even the most "cheerful" scenario puts the decline off for only 20 years, but that would still be an emergency. Reducing our use of petroleum is very complicated because:

- once demand outstrips supply, the price of oil isn't going to creep up 20% it's going to go up 3x or 5x or 10x or who knows?

- once the decline starts we'll need to save energy EVERY year, whether that's 2% or 15%, just to stay even

- staying even isn't good enough. We need to save MORE and with those extra savings try to build alternate energy sources. But it would take a century to even partly replace oil with the substiutes we have now.

There is a potentially cheery side to catastrophe. If we respond well (if 30 years later than we could have) we'll have a sense of national purpose, and build a much nicer country. Railroads a lot more efficient than trucks, and pollute a lot less; I for one would like to see a crash program of of railroad rebuilding for example. And even if we had much more oil, we'd die of global warming (as to which it might be too late anyway). The sooner we make the transition to something cleaner, the better.

The End of Suburbia is terrific, except for two flaws:

--- it fails to distinguish between its fatalistic "it's too late to plan" point of view from other possible scenarios; and

--- it fails to make clear that whatever you believe, between now and 20 years from now the worldwide production of oil is going to start to decline, and our lives will change, though perhaps not quite as predicted by this one sided documentary.

As a result, the documentary comes across as a lot more shocking than it needs to. The information it contains is too much of a shock for most people to accept -- but the reality is we've known for decades that there's only so much oil in the world, and that dependancy on it is potentially fatal.

Charles

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I agree, but i think you misunderstood the main point. The doc tried to be way more shocking, probably than it needed to be, precisly because the majority of people are oblivious to these problems and need something to slap them in the face, hence the one guy using the word *beep* so as to schock people as to the seriousness of the situation and SPECIFICLY to warn them from not paying attention to it

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"need something to slap them in the face, hence the one guy using the word *beep* so as to schock people as to the seriousness of the situation and SPECIFICLY to warn them from not paying attention to it"

Ya know, I agree with you. I no longer believe "The End of..." is too shocking, because the possibilities it considers are too possible and too near term.

What else can you do when you notice the driver is asleep, and tugging on his arm alone doesn't wake him?

Til

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All off America will get back to the stone age, being replaced by Eurasia as a world power.
Or not. :D

Either way - these next few centuries promise to be really interesting.

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These next few DECADES promise to be really interesting.

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[deleted]

Honestly, we possess all the technology we need to promote this lifestyle. All it needs is a Manhattan Project-style political will.

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There is no alternative energy source out there (nuclear/wind/ethanol, etc) that is going to be able to replace the level of energy consumption that the American public presently enjoy. The present level of consumption coupled with the size of population is unsustainable in the long term.

In about 100 years our ancestors will be living off the land just like the Amish do, and the only regional transport networks will probably be railways. The only difference between then and the 1800s will be the fact that the speed of communication globally will probably be maintained.

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It's just all designed to sooner or later knock us to the ground flat. If it's not peak oil, then it's nano technology or any one of a countless number of ways that is ever increasing because of our human capacity to miscreate more & more intelligent ways to end civilization as we know it, if not "perfect" the human race to complete extinction. Oh yeah, you may not be around, even your own children may not even be around, but chances are that without a big world wide collapse & total new rebirth in a mega-radical way, everything eventually ends, but ONLY in a total way (save the cockroaches or whatever). Some would say it's in our physical or mental makeup. But what do you expect when our path has been the "Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil" rather than the "Tree of Life" - DUH! Denial won't help, but only ensures a worse outcome. And some boy genious "rocket scientist" won't save the day, like in the movies. Hello? Who do you think got us here in the 1st place? A bunch of dimwits? Power, control, perfection, dominance (or "dominion"), cleaverness/intelligence. That's the way of our lesson. Less-on, change one's way (repent). The truth is that the longest path in the Universe is from the head to the heart. Where are you?

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> It's just all designed to sooner or later knock us to the ground flat
> If it's not peak oil, then it's nano technology

You are paranoid, and an optimist.

The truth is much more scary -- what Jim Kunsler calls the "consensus trance" is leading all of us to go goosestepping into a post-industrial future, which is probably inevitable for reasons of physics anyway (without cheap energy, there's nothing to run it).

There is no one "designing" this future, and it is good for no one.

Til

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Simplistic is too kind a word for this. Yes, oh the perfect life of our ancestors. How far should we go back? I guess the stone age would be your solution. Seeing your family die around you from predators, lack of food, disease or even a simple infection. Yes that was the life. Knowledge has always been the only path for humanity, and it still is. It is the only thing that has ever improved the human condition. It is essentially the study of reality, and this is exactly what we need more of not less. The real problem has always been the human capacity for self delusion, and those who would deny truth to it's face or prefer to make up their own. Perhaps if you would go stare into a calm pond, the real problem might suddenly appear to you.

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[deleted]

For you or anyone else looking for more info on a US government investigation into Peak Oil, try googling Hirsch Report.

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"For you or anyone else looking for more info on a US government investigation into Peak Oil, try googling Hirsch Report"

thank, and I agree

I am already familiar with that report -- published by the Department of Energy, and says anything less than 20 years to prepare means chaos, and we may not have even 1 year to prepare.

Weird, ain't it? All the information any Congressman, Senator or citizen needs -- all right there.

Meanwhile people go babbling on abou the hydrogen economy (never going to happen), ethanol, and other fantasies. BOTTOM LINE: how we live must change. In some ways the result may be more desirable if we plan for it, but the change is inevitable.

Til

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Good to hear that, Til!

Scary thing is, Hirsch did a follow up report in 2006 where he estimated what the cost would be:

Meeting ‘peak-oil threat’ will cost $20tn: US
Published: Wednesday, 20 September, 2006, 08:50 AM Doha Time

LONDON: The world needs to spend $1tn a year in alternative fuels, starting 20 years before the peak in conventional oil production, in order to mitigate fuel shortages, a US Energy Department study showed.
Production peaks in Texas, the UK and Norway were examined as part of two studies for the department that advised on “crash course’’ efforts to cope with an eventual shortage of gasoline and other liquid fuels.
The study, led by Robert Hirsch, didn’t predict when world production will peak, though Hirsch told reporters his guess is “within the next five to 10 years.’’

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=108704&version=1&template_id=48&parent_id=28

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"Scary thing is, Hirsch did a follow up report in 2006 where he estimated what the cost would be"

THANKS! I didn't know about the follow-up.

And this highlights the most frustrating thing about peak-oil: some people "get it," and other's don't, but among those that get it are some actually trying to plot a path from where we are now to where we could land safely.

In short: there IS a way out. In some ways I think the way out lead to a better place. The joke about the USA is we are 5% of the world's population and used 25% of its fossil fuels -- but it's not as though we get a great life from all that energy! Much of the time of the average American is spent commuting, and in general Americans have less time to spend with their kids than the parents of any other culture, civilized or not.

An America of railroads and towns instead of trucks, cars and shopping malls would be a happier and healthier place.

But without planning, we're in trouble. The implication of the Hirsch follow-up is post-peak, we won't have those trillions to spend on the conversion.

Frustratin' ain't it? At least some politicians and others are beginning to "get it," but man, they are slow. Too slow, it's looking.

Are you familiar with "Matthew Simmons"? Good name to Google on this subject, including on Google video. He's a very mainstream guy, who came to the Peak Oil idea late, but he now expresses the idea (and his own insights, based on his original research) more clearly than practically anyone.

Til

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Glad to share info with you. I'm definitely familiar with Matthew Simmons and have read many articles and interviews of him. I haven't read his book Twilight in the Desert, where he calls out Saudi Arabia as being near or possibly passing their peak, which would essentially make the world peak.

Simmons is not the only person to appear in End of Suburbia who believes that we have already peaked. Ali Samsam Bakhtiari, who said in the movie that he believes that the world will peak sometime between 2005 and 2007 because, "that's what my model shows", is now stating that based on the stats and research he has compiled that we did indeed peak in 2006. Ken Deffeyes, who claimed almost half jokingly that the world would peak Thanksgiving Day 2005, now is saying that based on his research that the peak actually occurred the following month. There's some very good discussion of this at peakoil.com.

You're right that things will be better in the long run, but there will be suffering in the short term. And part of the reason is exactly as you state: politicians don't get it! Only one person running for President mentions Peak Oil on his website, but with only 2% support in this country, Dennis Kucinich doesn't stand a chance to really get the message out, much less win an election. I feel sorry for whoever does win the Presidency, they're facing a major sh*tstorm.

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I've been fortunate to have attended conferences where Matt Simmons and Robert Hirsch were keynote speakers - they certainly make a convincing case that we are indeed facing a global energy crisis. Matt Simmons' latest presentations including that to last week's OTC in Houston are now available (and btw Matt is now stating that the world's largest oilfield, Ghawar, is 'in decline'): http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches

Have you also looked at the recent GAO ([US] Government Accountability Office) report which basically came up with similar conclusions to Dr Hirsch? Here's a link to the Energy Bulletin news item re GAO report in March 2007 which in turn points to the full report itself and related interviews (including Simmons): http://www.energybulletin.net/28016.html

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They definitely hit upon every conspiracy theory in existence. You name it, if you thrive on conspiracies, it's i here. All the way from "Big Oil Controlling the President", "Bush is Bad", "Oil is Almost Gone", "The U.S.A. Only Has a Few Years Left", "The Middle-Class Will Completely Disappear", "U.S. Citizens Will be Starving in 5 Years", "The Electric Grid Will Crash in a Couple Years"......etc., etc., etc., etc.

And there are VERY obvious half-truths, exaggerations, & out-right lies in the film. My all-time favorite was this one, DIRECT quote from one of the interviewed "experts":

The Iraq War was started to control the "last oil reserve left in the world".

Huh??? The "last"??? Humm.....I was under the impression that are still an oil reserve or two left in Iran, Saudi, Nigeria, Venezuela, Kuwait, Canada, Russia, Libya, North Sea, U.A.E., Mexico, Kazakastan, & of course the U.S.A.

I did, however, miss the news tonight, so all those might have ran dry yesterday.....but I doubt it.

The film is riddled with junk "facts" like this. That said, it makes for an hour or so of decent entertainment, as long as you don't take it TOO seriously.

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The peak oil story *is* based on facts, and they could not be more simple.

1. DISOVERIES of petroleum per year in the USA started to decline in 1930s. 40 years later, PRODUCTION per year started to decline. Put another way, when each you find less oil than you use, eventually you're going to have to use less.

2. Discoveries WORLDWIDE started to peak around 40 years ago. Now it appears production worldwide has started to decline -- as it MUST inevitably do. We've been using something like 4 barrels for every 1 barrel we find.

3. We could live without petroleum, but only if we make huge adjustments in the way we live -- and to do that requires more oil temporarily: more to build railroads instead of trucks and highways, more to build towns to substitute for suburbs, and to build windmills and solar for electricity.

All of those are facts. Another fact is that the geologist who figured this out predicted in 1956 that USA oil production would start to decline in 1970 -- which turned out to be true. He also predicted production worldwide would start to decline.

Even the US Department of Energy agrees with this -- see the Hirsch Report, which claims we need 20 years BEFORE decline starts to prepare. Unfortunately, we don't have 20 years: time is up.

EVERY PREDICTION MADE BY "The End of Suburbia" IS ALREADY COMING TRUE. Haven't you noticed?

- it predicts suburban land values will decline

- it predicts a series of serious economic depressions that keep getting worse (even the mainstream press is telling us this may be the worst since the depression)

- the price of gasoline will skyrocket (since "The End of..." was made the price has gone up 4x, or haven't you noticed)

Check out President Carter's speeches about energy in 1979. Nothing "The End of...." talks about is news. We knew then what we had to do -- and didn't do it.

Time to buy a bicycle, and learn how to farm.

T

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Here's some facts for you.. FACT GUY!

- Anything is Possible!
- With enough time and dedicated energy, complainers like yourself could become do'ers and solve this problem! Instead of complaining all the time.. the fact of the world is complainers are pathetic, they complain about politics, they complain about oil prices, when in fact in this world of action any person can take time to fix politics, fix the energy problems. (basically most complainers are too lazy to become do'ers)
- And here's one more fact, your complaining about this problem actually makes it worse, when it would get better without your help at all. Attention actually makes it worse.. not better.

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There is no "fix" for this problem. It's facing us NOW, and there is no way out. Gasoline will be $5/gallon soon, then up from there. We will be forced to live differently, plain and simple. Back to gardening and canning, biking and walking. The wasteful "drive thru" era is coming to a screeching halt.


"Great men do not commit murder; great nations do not start wars."

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You might want to check your medication "tmolthan" cause the reality you’re living in.. is in the movie "The Road Warrior"

I honestly don't understand why you morons bother..

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[deleted]

Those of us who do not believe what is being reported in The End of Suburbia are either asleep or not currently purchasing gasoline. This film was produced over two years ago, and EVERYTHING that it reports on has proven. Slam EoS if you will, but learn from it nonetheless.

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"This film was produced over two years ago"

Actually, more like 4 years ago.

"and EVERYTHING that it reports on has proven"

Not yet, but what's scary is how quickly we're getting there.

- stock market down (not close to crashed yet)

- prices of housing in suburbia down (not crashed yet, but on the way)

- per barrel oil prices up 14 times between 1999 and 2008 (so far) and up 40% been January 2008 and mid-way 2008

- 1 airline goes bankrupt per day

- food prices (dependent on petroleum) are rising worldwide)

what's shocking is how few people "get" it yet. We are walking blind into the largest crisis industrial civilization has ever known, bar none, and the press and most politicians STILL don't yell about it -- they treat this as some quirky temporary "bubble" that will end soon. Nuts! With the result that a situation we could have accommodated gracefully has become difficult or impossible.

Gonna be helluva ride!

Tilyou

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"what's shocking is how few people "get" it yet. We are walking blind into the largest crisis industrial civilization has ever known, bar none, and the press and most politicians STILL don't yell about it -- they treat this as some quirky temporary "bubble" that will end soon. Nuts! With the result that a situation we could have accommodated gracefully has become difficult or impossible.

Gonna be helluva ride! "

You've hit the nail on the fkin head there mate, i keep trying to think of some way of exploiting that ignorance and getting ahead before everyone wakes up.

so far my only plan is to sit back and say told you so
should buy some land to live off i guess. and guns.
or maybe a boat - sail about trading things

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"i keep trying to think of some way of exploiting that ignorance and getting ahead before everyone wakes up"

People are waking up fast, and you gun plan isn't too promising.

If you have the money and like the lifestyle, being part of a community where there's land and water enough to farm might not be a bad idea. We're still in a time when it's easy to buy electricity producing windmills and solar panels -- go green while it's easy (President G W Bush has - his ranch house in Crawford Texas is very ecologically green!).

Meanwhile, learn things. Medics will be needed always. Also people who know how to change alternators for cars into electricity producing windmills. Being an unelectrified musician might not be so bad.

And civilizations tend to crash slowly -- more often over generations, not overnight. If there's any stock market in 5 years, coal and uranium and railroads may do very well.

Bicycles too.

Personally, I plan to take a plasma-physics correspondence course.... :)

But I'm not too hot on your gun plan, although I understand the impulse. Ruined cities are filled with buried pots of silver as people tried holing up with their last bags of beans.

T

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wow thats a prompt reply for a little used board!
About the guns - I dont mean I'm gonna wonder the earth being a bandit, I just meant it may be required for self defense. It would be more of an advantage here in the UK , than in the US where everyone has one.
I would have relocated to some remote part of the US to live self-sufficiently, but the country is awash with guns, and when *this* happens a lot of starving people are gonna be using them - have you thought about moving out?

The community thing - I've been thinking about that, and it does seem the most productive thing you could do, but you have to commit entirely - and find some equally motivated people.
It'd would be nice to find somewhere with a river for water and power (waterwheel)

Learning things is good. I'm a pretty practical guy and i hope some of my skills will prove valuable - i could build a windmill from an alternator already.

and bicycles! we're thinking along the same lines! i was gonna start collecting bikes and spares and becoming the future bicyclerepairman.

another idea is making vodka/moonshine whatever from potatoes and becoming the village liquor store

or geting a sailboat and becoming a travelling trader type - being on the water lets you escape (and fish) but its a hell of an asset to try to keep safe :(



The real problem with the whole scenario is that the planet is currently supporting a population about 5 times the size it could support without oil.
I dont see anyway foprward without a huge population reduction, although that will happen later down the slide of hubberts curve i guess.


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