Anime fans vs Just-Robotech fans - Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles (2007) Discussion

[–] Mitaka 18 years ago

Does it borrow from other popular anime series'?

Given that the original was a fusion of three unrelated series in the first place, why would this necessarily be a bad thing? Having seen the originals for all three series, the originals are far superior, but I do enjoy the job Mr. Macek did in combing them.

"All true knowledge has a price." -Isawa Tadaka

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[–] fruccoman 18 years ago

I enjoy anime but ROBOTECH.....there is a respect I have for it. It s a saga, dare I say "SOAP-OPERA" feel w/ action and drama. Doesn't hold back. Let me tell you I am such a fan I got up every morning to tape every episode on tape (still have it, w/ comercials) when it aired on WPIX ch 11 (NY)....ALL the episodes, I have 7 tapes...I refuse to get the DVD's....

My love for Robotech is right up there w/ Transformers....Yes I know you can not compare the two in ref to quality and stories but those were my favorites growing up....BIG TIME.

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[–] Joanovarq 18 years ago

I am not a fan of anime. I just like Robotech because it has an awesome story, awesome human drama, etc.! The other anime I've seen is far too abstract for my taste. Except that I liked the Pokemon movie, but I don't know if that counts.

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[–] elandyll 18 years ago

I trust you have seen very little "anime", to have that kind of opinion.

As you love Robotech, I advise you try to watch:

Gundam 0083 Stardust Memory
Venus Wars
Macross Plus (true continuation of the Macross part of Robotech)
Macross Zero
Evangelion
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
Ghost in the Shell - The Movie
Patlabor 2

There are quite possibly a fiew others, but this would be a great start :)

hint: not all anime is like DBZ, SailorMoon or Yu Gi Oh - Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada should have showed you that :)

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[–] sublevel27 17 years ago

Oh, you're right. Because I was totally unaware that other anime titles existed than DBZ, SailorMoon, or Yu Gi Oh. Of course, I've never seen any of those three, so I don't know how to compare them. (I don't watch Anime on non-Adult Swim Cartoon Network or Fox--except, I'm not ashamed to admit-- Pokemon). They are directed toward audiences 15-20 years younger than I am.

I have seen the Ghost in the Shell stuff, Samurai Champloo, something about Princess Mononoke, Trigun, and an ASSLOAD of other things that I can't recall in the Anime club at the high school where I work. I've seen much more anime than you suspect, (a significant portion of which hasn't even been officially released in the United States), and I apologize if it offends you, -- but I don't like it.

I have seen more than enough to give the genre as a whole a fair shot. Except for the handful of shows mentioned before, I don't like it.

Macross Plus: Bored. didn't like it.
Evangelion: Pretentious; hated it.
Ghost in the Shell: Bored, bored, bored.
Patlabor 2: Bored.

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[–] WARLORD1863 17 years ago

Not an anime fan at all, just too crazy to me. I don't really consider Robotech as an anime, and here's my reasoning.

Anime is a japanese production made by Japanese for Japanese, then dubbed so that we can get in on the fun as well.

Robotech is an American creation, the story of robotechnology with the links between characters from Rick Hunter, to Dana Sterling, to Scott Bernard were all completely created by American writers. The only thing japanese was basically the "borrowed" animation. If Robotech were a written story (which you can find in the McKinney novels) there wouldn't be any japanese influence what-so-ever.

So what do we call a show which has a story completely developed and written by Americans, but the animation was done in japan? Well it's a cartoon isn't it? G.I. Joe was developed in the U.S. but the animation was outsourced to Japan. The same with Transformers, The Real Ghostbusters, and other classic cartoons.

Therefore, Robotech is not anime it is a cartoon. Anime is Mospeada, Southern Cross, and Macross... not Robotech.

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[–] sublevel27 17 years ago

You make an EXCELLENT point. It's not one I'm ready to agree with, but most definitely do not disagree with it. Your comparison to the outsourcing of Transformers, The Real Ghostbusters (two of my favorite shows when I was a kid) is compelling.

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[–] SilentJay32 17 years ago

You make an EXCELLENT point.

No, not really. It's just a case of distinction without difference. In Japan, GI Joe is anime. In Japan, The Lion King is anime. In Japan, all animation is anime. Why? Because anime is just the word that was borrowed, as there wasn't an actual Japanese term for it, to use to describe animation.

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[–] sublevel27 17 years ago

Okay.

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[–] heishiro 17 years ago

Robotech isn't really a "creation" but sort of a remix of three series. Shoji Kawamori designed mecha for Macross and created the original story, Haruhiko Mikimoto characters and Noboru Ishiguro directed. Without all their effort there really wouldn't be any Robotech or at least it would be very different (no SDF-1 Macross, no love triangle, no Lynn Minmay etc). And I've read that the story of Macross was the least altered of the three series so Carl Macek and the others working for Harmony Gold in the 80s shouldn't get too much credit for the story.

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[–] sublevel27 17 years ago

The Story of Macross was one-third of the story of Robotech, it is now one-fourth. It is the foundation of the Robotech story.

So, if Macek and Harmony Gold shouldn't get too much credit, how much credit should they receive for the Robotech Saga?

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[–] SmegForBrains 17 years ago

They definitely don't deserve credit for all the story of the other two series that they merged with Macross. I do give them credit for merging three unrelated series into one massive story that actually holds together extremely well, and for not dumbing it down for the kids too much. But it's stupid to act like the entire stories of "Masters" and "New Generation" were their creations. Besides the links they created to "Macross" there isn't a whole lot in those stories that wasn't there already. In fact "New Generation" is almost as close to "Mospeda" as "The Macross Saga" was to "Macross". Little is changed. Scott Bernard was from a space force sent back to defend earth from the Invid, they just changed it to being Rick Hunter's SDF-3 space force. Otherwise the series plays out much the same way in both versions.

Again I will say that the Macek and co. deserve some big thanks for their work on Robotech. Especially if you know how hard it would have been to do that in 1984. They actually managed to keep the story mature and even increase to epic scale of it by linking the three shows all together. This was something that is practically impossible to imagine happening in the children's cartoon market of 1984 America.

I do have a soft spot for Robotech, mainly because it was the perfect show for me as a kid. It was exactly what I wanted. It had big transforming robots, and didn't treat me like I was stupid like shows like the Transformers did (as much as I loved that show). It quickly became my favorite, and once I started finding out about where it came from I quickly became interested in anime as a whole.

Still I think this whole topic is pretty pointless. If you like Robotech, but not much other anime then fine. That doesn't change the fact that Robotech and it's ENTIRE story is highly grounded in three anime series. I used to be a big anime viewer, but have lost a lot of interest in it over the years. Mainly because I stopped thinking it as something different to be treated special, and started just judging it based on it's own merits. Some is great, some is crap, and I will grant you that there is a lot more crap out now than there was twenty years ago. But saying "I don't like anime" is like saying "I don't like movies". It's way too broad of a term to just dismiss it outright. And dismissing something just because it is anime is no different than completely worshiping something because it is anime. Just judge the series based on their own merits. You don't have to be an "anime fan", or "not an anime fan". You can like one anime series or film, and hate another. It isn't an all or nothing deal. And even if you don't find yourself liking any anime other than Robotech that doesn't mean you have to try to strip Robotech of it's anime origins, and the fact that those series play a much more important aspect to what Robotech is, than the actions of the US producers. That isn't needed in order to justify why you like Robotech.

(Also I want to say that I will never understand why DBZ gets such a bad rap today. People act like it is new when it definitely is not. I was a fan of it like fifteen years ago when all you could get were fan subbed tapes at conventions, or by mailorder. You can't lump it in with any other anime. Even down to it's art style there is absolutely nothing else like it. It is a gloriously tongue in cheek overload of insane story and action, and it never claims to be anything else. A lot of people don't understand that TORIYAMA GOT HOW CRAZY IT WAS, AND IT WAS ALL INTENTIONAL.)

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[–] sublevel27 17 years ago

"Still I think this whole topic is pretty pointless. If you like Robotech, but not much other anime then fine."

Seeing as how I started this topic, I will explain what the point of this topic was: I wanted to know how many people felt the way I do.

I like Robotech. I don't like Japanese animation as a whole. How many others feel that way. That's why I posted. I didnt' start this to bash Japanese Animation, or to bash it's fans. I didn't start this thread to argue and split hairs in order to feel superior. All I was doing was reaching out to others like me out of curiosity.

I apologize for offending you.

P.S. I think suggesting that we're trying to "strip Robotech of it's anime origins" is a bit of an overreaction.

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[–] SmegForBrains 17 years ago

I wasn't offended. And actually I'm sorry, I should have said that this discussion, not topic, is pointless. Not in reference to your inquiry, but in reference to the discussion that grew out of the question, which seemed to be building to the idea that either you had to like just Robotech, or just anime. And that the producers of Robotech deserved all the credit for the show being what it is. You didn't say this, but others were.

I think everyone should be able to say "I don't like Japanese animation as a whole". I don't like anime for animes sake. Much of it is quite terrible. But if you look at any medium that is often the case. But there are always the shining moments that make things worth while. I mean I can't dismiss all of TV just because most of shows are terrible and hold no interest for me. I just stick to what's good.

And actually I think a good discussion to have based on your original question is how has anime changed over the years that would result in many Robotech fans feeling so disconnected with modern anime? Honestly if you like Robotech you would also most likely also enjoy the original three series that it was based on (and possibly some other shows from that era. Have you ever seen Star Blazers?). There isn't that much of a difference in the stories from the originals to Robotech. The changes that were made were highly effective at succesfully tying the series together, which should be commended, but otherwise they were quite minor.

The situation I see is that anime as it is thought of today is completely different than it was back then in both artistic style and animation style. This is most likely the main reason I have lost most of my interest in it over the years. I still highly enjoy those original series that got me into anime (Tranzor Z and Voltron simply are childhood favorites of mine, and Robotech and Starblazers are the series that captured me with their stories, and made me think about it more seriously), and now after 20 years I finally have the opportunity to see the originals on DVD, and I am enjoying that very much as well. I also enjoy the odd current anime series or film, but I would never say I am an anime fan as a whole. I do call myself a film fan, because I absolutely love film as a whole, but I don't consider myself a fan of any particular genre. I like what is good from all areas, including anime.

I would say that the problem with most current anime is that it feels either like more style over little substance, or that it is little more than serialized commercials for card or video games. At least based on what is shown widely in the US. Still I treat it as any other form of entertainment art, and keep my eyes out for the gems that occasionally come through.

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[–] doctorcrimedog 12 years ago

This is the most rational, cogent post I've seen on this entire board. But for the fact that you seemed to like Dragonball, we seem to agree on most everything you said. I got into Star Blazers at age ten and loved it-and I still do. Finding Robotech five years later was basically confirmation for me that Star Blazers wasn't a fluke. I spread out and found other things I liked from Japan, much of which wasn't dubbed or even subtitled in those days, but gradually fell out of love with it. Character-driven space opera waned, and stories about super-powered schoolgirls and guys with comical nosebleeds became the order of the day. The last series I watched was Evangelion, which I disliked intensely. It was pretentious as all hell and clearly made by someone who had no clear idea what direction he wanted for the show. I quit keeping up with anime to any degree, even though one of my oldest friends still runs a sizeable anime convention-or at least, he started it. I question how much he keeps up with new anime.

I still enjoy Star Blazers. I have fond memories of Robotech, but I'm fairly certain I'll never sit down and watch it again. Those ad nauseum repeats of Minmei's two awful songs for most of the Macross series, the endless examples of characters going "huh?" at everything, and the whole style of the voice-acting make it hard to revisit. Some of it was decent, but there was this tendency for Macek's scripting to make everyone into a sarcastic smart-aleck. I'll give him this much credit: I thought the two other series he added on worked better as continuations than any of the actual Macross sequels that came out of Japan. But most of the serious changes happend in Southern Cross; most of the dialogue for the first and third series is the same as in the originals. For people to claim that Harmony Gold was completely responsible for writing the Robotech version is either unknowing or dishonest. The Macross scripts were so alike to the originals, in fact, that half the time Protoculture was referenced, it was by the original definiton, not the Robotech definition. It made following the series somewhat confusing at times. Mirya exhibiting her daughter as "the power of protoculture, the power of love" doesn't really jibe with some mystical energy derived from plants.

I agree: films should be judged individually by their own merits. Anime is not a genre, any more than American live-action is a genre. The fact of something being anime is neither reason to see it or avoid it. These days, however, I have no real desire to go out of my way for it.

-There is no such word as "alot."

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[–] Tturtle 17 years ago

I agree with what you are saying, Smeg, and would like to add that I have found with a few Robotech fans who don't like any other anime is that nostalgia comes heavily into play. If they were to have never seen Robotech before and they saw it now...

Well, with some I doubt they would have any interest whatsoever.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] ricknile88 17 years ago

Just Robotech since I was a kid. I love the characters and the story SO much. It's the very best. I wish they made a live-action tv-series.

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[–] Muad_Dib24 17 years ago

Is useless to compare.
Robotech and Macross are two diffrent products.

Robotech is a 85 episodes serie writted by Macek and Krammer for Harmony Gold.
SDF-Macross is a Japanese Animation Serie released in the early 80's.

Rick Hunter is not Hikaru Ichyjio
Lisa Hayes is not Misa Hayase (even if you're watching robotech and in the episode 10 (first contact) you read 1st Lt Hayase M. in the CatEye piloted by Lisa Hayes, or Fallyna M. in the Miriya Red VF-1S.)

Is true that Macek and Kramer must have a Japanese translator, because the main plot and the most of the dialogs in robotech "The Macross Saga" are the same than in SDF-Macross.
But Robotech is not only Macross, Macross has 36 episodes, Robotech 85.

The only thing that sucks in robotech is Reba West, oh my god, i will left the original songs by Mari Ijima instead.

Cya.

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[–] fave_perv 17 years ago

I just like stuff with a good story, wether it is Anime or not.
Anime wise tho i like.

Guyver OVA and new stuff.
Initial - D.
Bubblegum crisis OVA, new stuff wasn't as good.
Fist of the North Star.
Robotech, never seen any of the original Macross tho.
Battle Angel Alitta(Sp?)
A.D. Tank Police.
Those who hunt Elves. Only saw a couple of eps, but it was pretty good.

"Have you ever seen a man eat his own head"

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[–] isamu1701 17 years ago

Robotech is in large part what got me interested in Anime but overall I do prefer the original Macross version and it's sequels (DYRL movie version, Macross Plus, MP: Movie, Macross 7, M7 OVA/Movie, Macross Zero).

But from the first time I saw Macross subbed It's like watching two completly differn't shows. I admit the Music is a large part of this but the overall feel and tone of the show is differn't also.

For the record I own Robotech on DVD in the original three set boxes and the Protoculture collection but I also own the Macross Animeigo boxset, and I've been buying the new Macross realese from ADV, in part to support the series and for when I don't feel like reading subs which isn't often but it does happen. I also own the ADV boxsets of Southern Cross and Genesis Climber mospeada. I bought Robotech: Shadow Chronicles and I thought it was quite good and I'll watch the series if they can get it going.

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[–] chandies 17 years ago

For me, Robotech was the 'hook' that got me into anime and manga.

I happened to see the Art Book 1 on the shelf at a book store, and I was entranced. The TV show never aired in my area of the US, so the Art Book, comics, the novels, and the Role-Playing Game by Palladium was all I had to go by. But I loved the story and the art.

Some years later I got to see the the first few episodes of the Macross Saga, and the first 5 or 6 of the Invid Invasion. I still have yet to see the complete Robotech series, though I have seen the Sentinels, the Movie, and the Shadow Chronicals. I like Robotech for the story, the ideas it presents. Not for the quality of its animation.

But, while tracking down what I could of Robotech, I saw Akira, Megazone 23 Pt 2, Bubblegum Crisis, and Dirty Pair. I read the Appleseed manga, which led me to Tank Police (Dominion) and Ghost in the Shell.

Anime can be viewed as either a medium, or an art form. Or both. I lean towards the former. I don't like all anime, just like I don't like all movies or all books. But, I do find movies, books, anime, and manga that tells stories I want to read / watch. And to me, that's the whole point.

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