The most effective martial art? - Undisputed II: Last Man Standing (2007) Discussion

[–] 16 years ago

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Impossible. It would go against the traditions of Muai-Thai.
Boxing and sambo/judo are quite possibly the best fighting techniques if you consider a single style. But if you can mix em' i.e. if you're a great boxer and a decent samboist/judoka and you have good legs - that'll be the perfect mix.

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[–] mindstamina3000 13 years ago

If the Thai Kickboxer is of comparable size and strength he beats the boxer. For example the villain in the Van Damme movie Kickboxer would have owned Tyson, though if he made the same stupid "fists only" mistake Boyka made against Chambers then Tyson would win.

Tong Po vs Tyson would had ended the way Vitor Belfort defeated Wanderlei Silva. Po with his wide stand and arms straight out would have left himself open for a very fast young Tyson to sprint inside and drop his ass with combos in like 10 seconds.

Muay Thai is not some immune stand up that beats all, especially if a Boxer is fast enough to come inside out of kicking range and powerful enough to knocj the MT artist out.

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[–] the_DolpHiNo 16 years ago

Definetly Muay Thai man I don't care what size you are kicks to the shin and elbows to the face can take down any boxer......and then their used to punching bare handed which means they won't turn the hands and break them. Boxers are used to punching gloves to obviously protect the punchee also the puncher which brings up another point boxers get hit with 16 ounce gloves and muay thai get hit basically barehanded and elbowed and especially kneed to head on a daily basis that makes them better to take punishment you can say that they can't punch like heavywieght but no heavyweight can punch as hard as someone can knee or elbow for that matter especially world class fighters.....On top of that Muay thai fighters have way more stamina because the use their whole body's core legs, knees, arms, shins, feet unlike boxer who use mostly waist up stamina and all they do is gonna look for telegraphed punches not kicks.....

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[–] maxDOPE 16 years ago

A question that will cause some dispute, no doubt. First, there is a difference between 'sports' and a 'fighting system'. Boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, karate, Tae Kwon Do etc are all sports, meaning there are rules. I.e. you're not allowed to kick in the groin so one never trains moves aiming for that target.

Since IMO the most effective fighter is a fighter fighting on (trained and perfected) reflexes a reflex not present [i.e. kicking to the groin, stabbing the eyes, elbow-to-neck, adams apple, etc etc] means being not well prepared for real fighting like on the street. Multiple attackers, and full contact training are also essential. If you've never experienced a maximum force punch-in-the-nose you will be stunned [literally] when it happens, resulting in a lost fight.
So my vote is for real <b>fighting systems</b> like Krav Maga (Israeli self defense for Special Forces /SWAT teams) and in particular Wing Chun (designed to fight any martial arts style or system)

In both these systems everything is allowed and full contact sparring, fighting multiple attackers, efficient fighting on highly trained reflexes in real-life situations [wearing everyday clothes, not training gear] is trained endlessly.
They look very ugly so you won't see it in movies, but they work.

No high kicks, no flashy moves. Go in, do the job, causing as much damage as is needed and walk away.

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[–] mfs_void 15 years ago

I asked the same question many years ago when I started training and learning MA.

I guess, every martial artist and/or martial arts' enthusiast MUST ASK this question at some point or another, in his/her personal quest to uncover the so-called truth.

Bruce (Lee) had given his take on this question. Many others have also given their respective opinions as to which martial system can be considered as "the most effective MA."

I personally believe, the effectiveness of a certain martial system depends more on the martial artist or practitioner himself. As great as Muay Thai is, it is not an unknown fact, that there are Muay Thai fighters that have been beaten -- either by another Muay Thai fighter, or a fighter from other disciplines eg MMA, Sanda and Kyokushin.

My point is simply, the martial artist as an individual "is wholly responsible" to decide which martial system suits his personality and aspirations.

There are individuals who take a great liking to kicking. Then, there are others still who are fond of punching, throwing, grappling, wrestling, etc. Finally, there are those who just love to brawl eg street fighting.

Supposedly, a person decides that since he loves kicking so much, that he should join Taekwon-Do or Muay Thai. He then proceeds to train in his chosen MA. While he does so, he will be confronted with two further situations:

(i) should he focus to become a skilled tournament fighter only?; or

(ii) should he focus to develop skills that could be used on the streets?

Many have said that a Taekwon-Do fighter cannot defend himself in a real fight. Then again, should the actual ability of the Taekwon-Do fighter be judged simply from his practiced martial discipline? Of course not. He could have practiced self defense techniques to complement the standard Taekwon-Do syllabus and/or routines.

Here again, the maxim that every martial artist himself, eventually decides how effective a fighter he should be kicks in.

To sum up, the answer to the question lies within the martial artist. There definitely is no one-size-fits-all answer as the ultimate solution.

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[–] sovvolf 15 years ago

Mfs-void:

I agree with you here but were not judging on the martial artist were Juding on the effectivness of the martial art I would say that out of the ring the most effective martial art would be krav maga.

But in side a ring I would say Muay Thai. As for Teakwondo I would say its a very ineffective martial art, thats not to say some one couldnt be good with it but that depends on the martail artist not the martial art, I just martial arts on its fualts and merits and Teakwondo as alot of fualts that makes in very ineffective in self deffece, and there fualts that I dont understand why they are there, for example kicking with the foot and not the chin, the foot is alot smaller and full of small bones and it carnt generate alot of power and theresa risk of breaking the foot, why not use the chin?? its a very large bone the can deal alot of power, I mean theres no advantage in using the foot at all in the round house kick, It doesnt make it fast thats upto the martial artist.

Also the spin attacks that are done in teakwondo like tornado kick makes no sense, yeah sure it could work if you could time it properly but theres alot more better, faster kicks out there that you could just throw that wouldnt waste the time the tornado kick does and would still greatly injure your opponent.

Also your tuaght not to punch in the face or protect the face from punches in Teakwondo that just about makes no sense at all in a real fighting situation.

yes as you've mentioned Muay Thai as lost to other Martial Arts, but to be fair the rules are always stacked against Muay Thai when ever they fight another Martial art for example when fighting some one from Kyokushin or Teakwondo they are not allowed to use Knees or elbows and puching to the face is also disallowed so its not a very fair and accurate comparison, In MMA the elbows used in Muay Thai are also disallowed but Thats only a minor thing and you carnt really use MMA to compare against another martial art as mma is a mix of different martail arts including Muay Thai and BJJ or at time teakwondo and since different fighters use different fighting style its not a fair comparison, Sanda versus Muay Thai isnt really a comparison there pritty much the same fighting style only sanda as grappling.

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[–] drucom 14 years ago

You're digging into stereotypes here which nullifies the argument.

A common misconception is that Muay Thai only involves kicks. This couldn't be further from the truth. Punches, elbows, and needs are also used. The muay thai fighter's clinch can be deadly.

Boxers are neither bigger nor stronger. Watch any of the mixed martial arts fighters whose main discipline is Muay Thai or kickboxing. I'm talking about people like Bas Rutten, who is simply huge in terms of size (comparable to a boxer).

Boxers also don't have better stamina. Watch any Thailandese muay thai fighter. These guys can go round after round and always deliver explosive punches and kicks, and combinations.

Your entire post is based on untrue assumptions so your argument is invalid.

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[–] coold_as_ice 14 years ago

MMA/UFC is the closest thing to the real fight you can get, it simulates and proves you what martial art works best in a real fight (without weapons)... It has been proven since the 90s when MMA didnt even had any rules that only Muay Thai, Boxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling was BEST.

A combination of these three makes you the best fighter you can be, you are not effective if you can only one thing of these three if your opponent is wellrounded. In that order:

1. Wrestling, most important in everyway! Because with that you can decide where you want the fight, on the ground or up, protect yourself from being taken down if you want to stay up and bang... down if you want to use your ground and pound / BJJ or protect yourself from the ground if you want to stand up and use your striking advantage. WRESTLING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!!

2. Muay Thai, because it is the most deadly striking technique. Every kick, elbow, punch, knee delivers highest amount of pressure / damage and it has been proven aswell by scientists. Its all about raw power, accuracy and efficiency. Because of using the best telekinetic energy on the strikes. It makes you also coordinated, amazingly conditioned and having the ability to train for higher pain threshold aswell because it is a fullcontact sport even in practices.

3. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, because a fight always goes to the ground unless two fighters decide not to go down. Once you are down, you know exactly what to do, make your opponent cry for his mother before you put him to sleep or simply brake of his limb.

ANY OTHER MARTIAL ART IS JUST A WASTE OF TIME AND SPACE ON THIS EARTH......... YES, EVEN KRAV MAGA, YOU DONT BRING A HAND INTO A KNIFE/GUN FIGHT SORRY....

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] xav-jacob-IMDB 14 years ago

Having trained in 3 different systems, and researched many others, Krav-Maga seemed to be the most effective for street use. That may be because it is designed for self-defense on the street (at least the civilian version).

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[–] ga526 14 years ago

Most effective martial art? Marksmanship, no doubt about it.

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[–] Mandrashee 14 years ago

I believe Krav maga or Ninjutsu are the most effective. As mentioned here before, it depends on the practitioner and the situation. None the less, i believe these formats of martial arts, would stand the best chance, against a wide spectre of different opponents. However it is defficult to find places, where they teach these martial arts forms. I come from Denmark, and the most dominating formats here is Karate, Ju jitsu and Taekwondo. If you don't go into details, these formats are very alike, because they derive fromt roughly the territory.
I chose Guy Ryu Karate Doo, as my format for many years, but i am looking forward, moving to Japan and practice Ninjitsu, if I ever get the money.

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[–] maxDOPE 14 years ago

Ninjutsu is not a martial art.
It is a combination of mostly Jiu Jutsu and some other Japanese stuff.
Don't be deceived by the clever money makers out there: there was never an official school [Ryu] teaching 'ninjutsu'.

Save your money and study Krav Maga, <i> after</i> doing Wing Chun for about 3-5 years.
These 2 combined will give you an excellent base to deal with street violence. It is for a reason that these 2 are studied by all major SWAT teams and police forces over the world. And body-guard training: the same.

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[–] badyakuza 14 years ago

I'd say Muay Thai and Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu.
Jiu-Jitsu is great because even if they are twice or three times as strong as you, get the right hold and they are helpless. Leverage > Strength.

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[–] mmiha-kokalj 14 years ago

The one bruce lee "invented", which is basically more of an ideology: use the moves from every style and utilize them in the most effective way in the given situation.

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[–] CichlidAsh 14 years ago

The most effective martial art is simply the one that suits you the most. Mainly it comes down the the person and the ability to use what they know to the maximum effect. MMA fighters are very effective in the sporting arena but anyone who tells you that something like Pride or UFC is close to real fighting has little or no knowledge of what a real fight, you dont get your oponents mates kick you in the face when you show ground dominance in any of these sporting compititons and you dont get the other guy coming at you with a knife or some other weapon either.

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[–] fuguy 14 years ago

yeayeayeayea the op was still talking about what ma would be the most effective. brining in knifes and *beep* is pointless since it doesnt matter to the subject at hand. UFC/PRIDE is close to a real fight in the sence that they are not really trying to kll each other witch is also the case in 99% of every "street fight" that happens. If i were to fight another dude on some occasion (not that i would) i wouldnt bring a knife or a bottle into the mix and if he did i would run or give him my cash, its as simple as that.

to the question. Any MA that doesnt include full contact sparring is bogus. I wouldnt mind much if not for the fact that these old guys with there black belts are going around telling people about their super secret killing moves and *beep* like that. A welltrained guy who goes to the gym will beat any blackbelt old guy from some fancy kung fu school whos never sparred 9 times out of 10. other then that a mix is obviously way to go.

and a street fight can hardly be considered a "real" fight since most of the times neither of the parcipitants knows how to fight, just swining wildly and hoping for some luck.

Whats that on your face!

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] solomonmethod 14 years ago

I took a Russian Martial Art known as Systema for a year. I was impressed. The idea is to use a flowing style of martial arts to take down your opponent as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. Anything goes. Take just about every martial art you can think of and then use only the most useful parts. You can choose to either immobilize or completely destroy your opponent. It's all up to you.

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[–] maxDOPE 14 years ago

I know Systema. The funny thing is that it uses the same principles as Wing Chun [take the best of everything... etc] and adds the tricks of Krav Maga. The outcome is quite similar to KM with some sambo and Aikido-like things. Very useful, but to find a good teacher is close to impossible.
Most self proclaimed teachers outside of Russia are better than their students, but that's about it. How can you judge your teacher ?
The Speznaz division of Russian army is not big and most have not enough skills to teach the hand-to-hand combat to others, because everybody learns only the basics. My brother in law is a former colonel of Speznaz [25 years of active service, Afghanistan, Chechneya etc] and even he knows only basic things, with some Sambo on top of that.

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[–] tataobr 14 years ago

In my opinion if you compare one MA with another without mix them (like MMA), I would say a grappling art (like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Wrestling)... If you have doubts you can watch the first 10 UFCs (where the fighters were experient in ONLY ONE art, and back then grapplers had better results, Royce Gracie, Dan Svern, Ken Shamrock, Mark Coleman)... Before the hybrid fighters (MMA) these guys prooved that grappling (in a controlled enviroment) is better than striking arts...

However if you want to be a complete fighter you can mix grappling with striking arts... Boxing - BJJ - Muay Thay - Wrestling - Karate and ETC..

Sorry my bad english :D

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[–] mindstamina3000 13 years ago

BJJ or wrestling won't do you any good in a bar where you don't have space to go for a takedown.

I rather end a fight by knock out than go to the ground.

At the same time BJJ is a must to be a good fighter while adding it with Boxing and Muay Thai because if you cannot knock a guy out and you end up wrestling then that is when it will come into use.

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[–] fredeolesen 13 years ago

I don't believe one martial art is better than another. It only depends on the individuals skills, how strong he/she is and how flexible. A lot of martial arts gets underestimated because the majority only sees the martial art perfomed in a ring with rules. Fighting on the streets would be a completely different thing. Pokeing in the eyes, biteing, going for the groin, neck etc.

In the perfect scenario where one fighter representing each of the existing martial arts, then IMO the matches would be concluded be who is fighting whom. I believe that one martial art is cabable of cannelling out another. And that's why I don't really believe that there is one suporier martial art. The strongest martial artist would be one, who is capable of mixing martial arts up and perfecting them. No rythm, no telling what he would do next.

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[–] david_de_jesus 12 years ago

It really depends on the context, are you talking about fighting in a ring? in the street? one opponent? multiple opponents? does the opponent have some sort of weapon (obviously i dont mean fire arms)?

In a ring MMA with a heavy focus on BJJ are probably the best.

In the street with multiple opponents not so much. Then your best chance is probabaly Krav Maga and good cardio for running as soon as you can.

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[–] exelzior 12 years ago

Wrestling, grappling and BJJ techniques have proven to be most effective back in the beginnings of MMA when there were almost no rules. As MMA is the closest thing to real fighting today, it was even more at the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts#History

Once you are on the ground against an opponent who knows what he is doing you are not getting up. If you don't know how to defend against chokeholds and joint-locks you are screwed and it's instant win.

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