question about religion - Left Behind III: World at War (2005) Discussion

[–] e36002 18 years ago

i am not dissing on anyone here and i respect everyones beliefs and choices

thank you

but here me out first okay.

I'm willing to if you can return the favor

What if we were all told a lie

I have seriously considered this, but who exactly are you blaming? Jesus? writers of the bible? People who have tried to convince you to accept Christ?

what if religion is really about making people believe their is a higher power.

What would be the purpose of that? it keeps some people happy and gives them encouragement in their day-to-day lives, but there are SO many more people who disagree with it. It really causes more disagreements and fights than peace.

What if for over two thousand years all the religious sects have been doing is spreading false hope and what if the bible was written by not some sane man but by some insane man.

I can't say I've ever thought of that possibility, but I think it's highly unlikely.

For what i believe i am an aetheist plain and simple but i believe in alot i just don't believe in god or the devil or heaven or hell. I believe when we die our minds continue in essence meaning our body does but our minds live on. If you don't mind me saying i believe in the whole supernatural world that has nothing to do with god or the devil.

You can say what you believe and I can say what I believe. I believe that demons and angels exist on earth. there is a constant battle taking place over people's souls. When a person dies, I believe their immortal soul either enters into heaven or hell. That is based on whether or not they have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Plus the whole story about Adam and Eve is BS

So much for not dissing anyone. *sigh* should have expected it.

anyway we all know we evolved from apes and the world was not formed in seven days it took millions of years. this is proven in layers of rocks. another way we know for sure is a planet isn't created by some mythical force its a common thing that can happen in the galaxy.

WE do? Do you remember turning into a human from an ape? Come on, animals don't start growing extra limbs and becoming super intelligent. It just doesn't happen. It didn't then and it never will. And we can't prove how this world was created. No one can. No one was there. I believe that God created this world, but I can't prove it. Many people believe that evolution or the big bang is what caused the earth's existence, but they can't really prove that either.

Another thing is in certain bibles it says dinosaurs never existed or doesn't say exactly that but it says something along the lines and their is evidence they did exist.

Hmm, what translation were you reading? The Bible does mention dinosaurs and that they did exist; it just doesn't talk about them in great detail. some of the newer translations that try to be 'modern' so more people will understand it or whatever kind of twist things around a little bit and sometimes, through different styles of translations, the meanings of certain things can be twisted, blurred or wiped out.

If you're going to criticise what I say in the above post, explain why.

reply

[–] dustin09 18 years ago

to add to e36002's remarks (first of all I am a Christian). In conjunction with the Earth being seriously old and there being multiple Earth layers and all that. If you go only on the story of the bible, how he created the Earth and how he created the first man were nearly identical in a sense. God created Adam as an adult, not a baby. Therefore God created an adult Earth instead of a baby Earth. Btw, there are millions of ways to prove the age of the Earth, but people only seem to look at the ones that refer to the Earth being billions of years old. For example, space astronauts have taken samples of space dust that has gathered on the surface of the moon, and have come to the conclusion that 10,000 years of space dust had gathered on the moon. God didn't create a baby Earth, but he did create a baby moon.

reply

[–] theicemonkey 18 years ago

The moon came from the Earth. So yes, it is younger. The Earth is about 5 billion years old. This is not a guess. Evolution is the driving force of all life that exists on this Earth. Life exists because it evolved. If it hadn't, then that life would be dead. Evolution is not about the creation of super intelligent beings, it is about the gradual changing of a species so that it is better equipped to survive. This generally happens based on a random mutation in an offspring's DNA. Almost all of the time, these mutations are harmful as we witness in everyday life with children that are born with serious problems. However, what if this error made you better equipped to deal with your environment? What if it increased your fitness? (better fitness means you are better able to reproduce than other animals of your species). You are more likely to reproduce and pass down those traits if you have an advantage in doing so. This drives the concept of evolution.

We have more evidence for evolution than most theories anyone has ever come up with. It is logical, we can witness it, we have fossil evidence and observable evidence that supports it. Any credible scientist that you speak to will back evolution 100%. The arguments about no "missing link" or "transitional fossils" make no sense, and are generally used by people who have no idea what evolution is , because every fossil is transitional. There is no "link" we are missing.

reply

[–] kalel0521 18 years ago

Actually you don't have any fossil evidence. There have been no transitional fossils found...ever. Fossils sure, but not transitional fossils. The moon did not come from the Earth. The composition of the moon rocks taken by the astronauts are completely different in amounts, make up and age, then the composition of the Earth. There is MICROevolution in a species set, but not MACROevolution with jumps from one species to another. Mutation is nearly always adetrimental. Not one time has a mutation been shown to be an advantage except in species sets that are larger than 1 quintillion and reproduce in 34 hours or less. Only one species has shown that so far, guess which one: viruses. We are to big and complex as are all the other species for mutations to work. Also, Even with the Earth being 3.5-4 billion years old is not enough time for life to evolve for a variety of reasons. 1) Any life that did happen to suddenly appear would be wiped out repeatedly by the continuous UV rays bombing the Earth before the atmosphere was complete. The chances of even one..one strand of amino acids developing, which are just the precursors of life not life itself, are 1 in 10 to the 80,000. Any competent mathematician or bioligist will tell you that any number larger than 10 the 50 is the same as being impossible never going to happen.

reply

[–] rahki2000 18 years ago

you may object to what i say but where is your proof the bible isn't proof what people have found is truth. The bible says one thing the rock formations and soil samples say another. In fact i believe that religion was made up to give people hope when people should rely on themselves.

reply

[–] NerdMom 18 years ago

I am not here to discuss why you should believe in God. I belive that God is the Maker and Christ His only begotten son died for our sins to save us from hell. But, my comment is to discuss the Bible as proof. Something that I love to see is Science prove the Bible. Let us look upon the parting of the Red Sea. Secular science sources have stated that there was some sort of pulling effect that caused the Red Sea to be passable on foot. Let us look at Jericho. There is evidence of a large earthquake that knocked down city walls. Now some say that that was science but not God. But, if you accept the premise of a Creator...wouldn't he have created science? Btw, Darwin didn't teach "evolution" but his study on the Galapogus Island was in adaption. If evolution was a true effect why did it stop? If evolution is true and that is how we got life on earth why does that violate the chaos theory? I would love to correspond about all this. I am not easily threatened in my beliefs;) and if you would like to discuss it further(with no anger or bitterness growing but a real discussion with evidence on both sides and everything) please email me.

reply

[–] asheraven 18 years ago

Alright I'll say this again

The creation story was a simple way to explain how things came to be to a race of man who had no Concept of sience as we understand it today.

I'll explain why shortly, but I want some christian here to actually tell me the order of events that things werre created (over the so caled six day period). I have a reason for this, but my aurgument cannot be made without a Christian to help me back it up.

I will sjow you how Evolution is as much a part of the creation story. But then proof is subject I suppose, but I'd sure like to to show you why I think the Bible, a book that is open to interpretation, can be seen to support the theory of evoltion. Just humour and tell me the story of the first six days of creation first.

reply

[–] dustin09 18 years ago

Day 1 - God created Light and Darkness.
Day 2 - God created the Heavens and the Earth. (Meaning the entire Universe)
Day 3 - God created the Land and Water on Earth. On the same day he filled the Earth with plants.
Day 4 - God created the Night and Day. On the same day he created the Sun, Moon, and Stars.
Day 5 - God created Animals that were on dry land, in the sky, and in the water.
Day 6 - God created Man.
Day 7 - God rested. (In symbolism to people to do the same)

Later on he created Woman from Man's rib.

If you would like textual evidence I can give it.

reply

[–] cazzygirl24 18 years ago

Sorry to interrupt...asheraven, you can just post your reply to dustin after this, but I just wanted to interject something. Okay, based on some research on Darwin that I did a long time ago (so I'm racking this out of my brain, please forgive me as I dust out some cobwebs lol) he never said that humans evolved from apes. That idea, not sure exactly where, but I know that there was a cartoon mocking Darwin's theory, because he had said that as time passes things change and evolved to new things (I know that's not exactly right, but w/e) and as a joke they decided to show that humans came from apes. Darwin nor any other scientist ever said that. Also, Darwin said that he didn't completely believe in his own theory of evolution either. He actually grew up in a very religious family, but he slowly lost his ties to his religion over time.

Just thought I'd add that in for people who are saying that we came from apes...no scientist ever said that. Sorry to interrupt everything.

reply

[–] asheraven 18 years ago

Dawinism does not fit at all well with the theory of evolution or natural selection. So lets not go down that route. Anyway, lengthy reply coming up soon, and let me ask you this.

How woudl you explainthe complex threads of the universe to a man who simply had no understanding about the laws of physics, biology. Even being told that you evelove from nothing but ooze at the time would be something unfatahmable.

One thing I will tell you now is that the most important thing here is the comments that God made man from the Earth. Well in all respects, even scientific, we cannot deny that everything we know evolved from the earth, well not unless you're a creatinist, but it still makes a good storytelling way of telling unsceientific man where we really came from.

Evolution does not deny God, it's those that calime to speak for god that deny Eveolution, which is a shame as in the end.... does it really matter...?

reply

[–] whatsthisnow 17 years ago

To anyone who's reading this thread... I think the cartoon she's referring to is http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Darwin_ape.jpg. The caption reads "This caricature of Charles Darwin as an ape reflects the cultural backlash against evolution and common descent."

:-)

reply

[–] zeggman 17 years ago

Ha ha, too funny.

reply

[–] jewel101891 17 years ago

I believe in Christ and that he was sent to save the earth. Look at the facts it all adds up. Scientist have proven that the earth could only be thousands of years old. As for saying we have evolved from monkeys.. personally I think were insulting the monkies. No look at it Evolution means to continually change. If so then why has the evolution stopped, we get old we die, we don't evolve. And for dinosaurs the bible often refers to them as beast. Like the anti-christ is the beast of Revelation. There are many facts that science gives us and there are many THEORIES science gives us. A theory is completely different from fact. Evoution is a theory. We all shape whatever evidence science gives and contort it into what we want to believe. All I know is that I asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins and someday I hope you do to. Whether you want it or not I'm praying for you.

God Bless,
JC 15

reply

[–] fallenangelwithfroglegs 16 years ago

Oh no! Another moron claiming that "evolution is just a theory" and thus not a fact. Learn the scientific definition of the word "theory".
Anyway, NO credible scientist has ever proven that the Earth could only be a few thousand years old - you've got to stop watching creationist YouTube videos and pick up a few books!
Okay... as for, why has evolution stopped?... It hasn't. Evolution takes millions of years to make even the slightest of changes. There's no massive mutational leaps like in the X-Men.
In regards to dinosaurs, at least you weren't foolish enough to say that "God put the fossils there to test us"... but, following your logic, you may as well have.
None of the facts add up - no one even knows if Jesus really existed. Outside the bible, he's barely referred to in any other historical text, and those he is mentioned in he gets a passing sentence, a paragraph at best. I think a man who could make the blind see, walk on water, oh, and CLAIM TO BE THE SON OF GOD would get the attention of prolific intellectuals of the time.
I'm sorry, but the facts don't add up.

reply

[–] kolgboy 16 years ago

"Outside the bible, he's barely referred to in any other historical text, and those he is mentioned in he gets a passing sentence, a paragraph at best."

The problem with that argument is that the Bible was not written by one man. It is many, MANY accounts put together into one book.

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 16 years ago

"Outside the bible, he's barely referred to in any other historical text, and those he is mentioned in he gets a passing sentence, a paragraph at best."

The problem with that argument is that the Bible was not written by one man. It is many, MANY accounts put together into one book.

All molded, excised, and made to fit the desires of the First Council of Nicaea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea. How are certain books "true" while others were discarded because they didn't meet the goals of the Council? Also, all accounts were written AT LEAST 100 years after the supposed fact. You were saying something about problems??

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] gibsonj338-3 16 years ago

I'm a Christian and have been since I was six years old (now 25 1/2) and before my parents became Christians. I go to imdb.com and read the message boards and read about religion; people asking questions about Christiany(sp?), people responding and other people responding to the people who respond to the original poster, and so on until you have over ten pages or more of responses and have posted responses to help answer the question(s). What I see that usually happends is that people like the people here on this message board will ask one or more questions about Christianiany(sp?) and someone who is a Christian or who claims to be a Christian will answer the question(s) to the best of his/her ability. Mind you that the question(s) that are asked are question(s) that are hard to answer in the first place because it would be hard to provide proof except by reading the bible. People who are not Christians who don't really believe in the bible, it doesn't matter what you tell them, they will just argue the point to death.

Example: Some people believe that a great flood couldn't have happen because it is impossible (to read about the great flood go to Genesis 6:1 - 9:29). Being a Christian, I would have to agree and say tha it is impossible and no way that a great flood could have happened. What I mean is, no human on earth could make the great flood happen, but God being who he is, has the ability to make anything happen that he wants to happen. People know that the great flood did happen because in the bible at Genesis 8:4 it says "...and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat." and when people have gone to the mountains of Ararat, they have found what is beleived to be parts of the ark.

reply

[–] marktheblake 18 years ago

>The bible says one thing the rock formations and soil samples say another

Is that the same science that shows that rock layers at the top of the Grand Canyon are dated older than layers at the bottom.

Or the rocks in new zealand that are dated at 10 million years old, yet actually came from a Volcanic eruption this century.

Do you actually realise that the Left Behind movie is based on gods message to the world for people with your belief?

reply

[–] asheraven 18 years ago

"Do you actually realise that the Left Behind movie is based on gods message to the world for people with your belief? "

No it is based on an interpration of God's so called word, and not a very good one at tat. The sooner you relaise that this film is nothing more than a work of fiction, the closer you ight get to the truth.

But if this film is the only thing that's truth to you, then you truly miss the point.

reply

[–] karatekidnumber1 14 years ago

The Left Behind book series is the authors' idea of what MIGHT happen in the apocalypse based on the book of Revelations. The movies were based off of the books. So yes, the films are complete fiction.

reply

[–] toaniletia 13 years ago

There's never been transitional fossils found? Where is that information coming from? Actually, there are MANY more transitional fossils out there than you think.

Cladoselache
Tristychius
Ctenacanthus
Paleospinax
Spathobatis
Protospinax
Acanthodians
Palaeoniscoids
Canobius, Aeduella
Parasemionotus
Oreochima
Leptolepids
Amphistium and Heteronectes
Paleoniscoids
Osteolepis
Eusthenopteron, Sterropterygion
Panderichthys, Elpistostege
Obruchevichthys
Tiktaalik
Acanthostega
Ichthyostega
Hynerpeton
Labyrinthodonts
Temnospondyls
Dendrerpeton acadianum
Archegosaurus decheni
Eryops megacephalus
Trematops
Amphibamus lyelli
Doleserpeton annectens
Triadobatrachus
Vieraella
Karaurus
Proterogyrinus
Limnoscelis
Tseajaia
Solenodonsaurus
Hylonomus
Paleothyris
Captorhinus
Scutosaurus
Odontochelys Semitestacea
Deltavjatia vjatkensis
Proganochelys
Hylonomus
Paleothyris
Petrolacosaurus
Araeoscelis
Apsisaurus
Claudiosaurus
Planocephalosaurus
Protorosaurus
Prolacerta
Proterosuchus
Hyperodapedon
Trilophosaurus
Paleothyris
Protoclepsydrops haplous
Clepsydrops
Archaeothyris
Varanops
Haptodus
Dimetrodon
Sphenacodon
Biarmosuchia
Procynosuchus
Dvinia
Thrinaxodon
Cynognathus
Diademodon
Probelesodon
Probainognathus
Exaeretodon
Oligokyphus
Kayentatherium
Pachygenelus
Diarthrognathus
Adelobasileus cromptoni
Sinoconodon
Kuehneotherium
Morganucodon
Eozostrodon
Morganucodon
Haldanodon
Peramus
Endotherium
Kielantherium
Aegialodon
Steropodon galmani
Vincelestes neuquenianus
Pariadens kirklandi
Kennalestes
Asioryctes
Cimolestes
Procerberus
Gypsonictops
Coelophysis
Eoraptor
Epidendrosaurus
Herrerasaurus
Ceratosaurus
Allosaurus
Compsognathus
Sinosauropteryx
Protarchaeopteryx
Caudipteryx
Velociraptor
Deinonychus
Oviraptor
Sinovenator
Beipiaosaurus
Lisboasaurus
Sinornithosaurus
Microraptor
Archaeopteryx -- the famous bird-with-teeth.
Rahonavis
Confuciusornis
Sinornis
Patagopteryx
Ambiortus
Hesperornis
Apsaravis
Ichthyornis
Columba

...but enough of those, how 'bout a few mammalian ones?

Darwinius masillae
Ambulocetus
Indohyus
Basilosaurus
Dorudon
Zeuglodon

And then the primate-to-human transitional species:

Sahelanthropus tchadensis
Orrorin tugenensis
Australopithecus anamensis
Ardipithecus ramidus
Australopithecus afarensis
Kenyanthropus platyops
Australopithecus bahrelghazali
Australopithecus africanus
Paranthropus aethiopicus
Homo erectus
Paranthropus robustus
Homo habilis
Homo rudolfensis
Australopithecus sediba

...dah, there are many. So your first proposition -- debunked.

But about your proposition concerning the UV rays; yeah, this is another argument I hear a lot, that the Sun would've burned up the ocean in under 10,000 years by now.

However, you forget that we have the atmosphere (especially the ozone layer) and the magnetosphere to protect us from the sun's radiation.

Look, scientists WOULD agree with your anachronistic doctrines about the Earth being made in under a week, if only the evidence showed that this was so. You can make up excuses like God making the Earth looking so vastly aged, but then you come to conflicts with things like the The Great Flood story. If Earth was made in its present form, how exactly would the animals from the Ark migrate to the other continents? Also if it was made in current form, the flood waters would cover Everest at a height which would suffocate and/or freeze the animals on the Ark to death.

Of course there ae other problems with those myths like how heavy and large the Ark had to have been, where all the marine reptiles of the dinosaur era went to, how freshwater creatures survived under all that pressure, finding food after the flood, the lack of genetic diversity from only two individuals of a species... you get the idea.

When you try and use science to explain your mythology, you turn was is meant to be a fantasy into a science fiction. Plus, if God did make the Earth look old with all the fossils and diamonds and oil and peat already in it, then that's just as ridiculous as me saying I created the universe 93 seconds ago and all your memories from before reading this post were fabricated and uploaded into your brain, that I made all your family and friend photos, even put genetic evidence into your DNA -- all of it, made to look as if I didn't make it. Why did I make the universe look this old? Because I love you all or something.

That's how your God works. Making the universe look exactly as though he didn't make it and giving it laws to show that the Earth COULD've formed without the help of an intelligent agency. This makes it all extremely peculiar, doesn't it? Especially since God is a non-physical consciousness that can exist without a brain, yet he gave us brains, being physical, delicate, a hog of most our energy and taking up so much space that 1/5 women died at childbirth because of the brain's size.

Why exactly would God make a universe so vast that we'd probably not be able to explore it all within the 30 billion more years the universe will be able to support life? Why did he make it 99.999999999% black hole and hostile to any life?

If bunnies and flowers were designed, then so were bacteria and viruses and cancer. Don't even think about blaming Lucifer because in doing so and having these diseases able to surpass the immune system that Yahweh supposedly created, obviously Satan must be more powerful than God.

God can't be omnipotent because in being so, he should also have the ability to create a task which he himself could not perform. If he can do such a thing, that task he cannot do and he's not omnipotent. If he can't create such a task, he's also not omnipotent.

To suggest that it's a limitation of the human brain is a cop-out. That means that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is also such, in being invisible yet somehow pink.

Religion is a cruel and manipulative hoax. Sorry for being so susceptable to believing in fairy tales.

_____
YOUR FACE

reply

[–] Armgirls 17 years ago

Waitwaitwait. "The moon came from the Earth. So yes, it is younger. The Earth is about 5 billion years old. This is not a guess." I'm sorry, but how do you know this? Did you time it? I just want to know where this comes from, no offence is intended.

reply

[–] CalisAngel 18 years ago

Why would God need to create an "adult" Earth? Why couldn't this have occured billions of years ago, even the Big Bang....God really is just a kid with an ant farm; and maybe in this ant farm he "set off" the big bang and let the universe evolve from there. And on a side note, not really directing at anyone in particular, but people really need to learn what "evolution" means and not be scared of it. Like someone had said (sorry forget who) if it weren't for evolution then there would be no life, it would die out from the inability to adapt (evolve).

reply

[–] cazzygirl24 18 years ago

A note on the big bang theory:

God spoke and BANG it happened.

reply

[–] whatsthisnow 17 years ago

"Why couldn't this have occured billions of years ago"

... The official explanation is just as nutty as the creationist ideology as a whole... It's because some pope said God told him to add the ages of everyone in the bible together, and that that would be the age of the earth. :-o Although the Catholic church has since changed it's mind (it endorses evolution), American evangelicals hold on to it.

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] devilbot 17 years ago

Who cleaned the poop in the bottom of the ark?

reply

[–] zeggman 17 years ago

I think it was Shemp.

reply

[–] zeggman 17 years ago

You are incorrect when you say that astronauts (or scientists, for that matter) have come to the conclusion that 10,000 years of space dust have gathered on the moon. I don't know what Creationist website is publishing this nonsense, but it just isn't true. The only way to get an idea of how many years of dust have gathered is to drill through it, and they haven't yet taken any drilling rigs to the moon.

reply

[–] Dali-Fan 15 years ago

"space astronauts," is there another kind of . . . ? Sheesh. Like reading Sarah Palin.

"I would sum up my fear about the future in one word: boring." JG Ballard

reply

[–] karatekidnumber1 14 years ago

I'm also a Christian. The fact is, Genesis 1:1-2 says: "(1)In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (2)Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Verse 3 says: "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." No one can say how long there was between the creation of the world and the creation of light. It could have been millions or even billions of years, or even one or two seconds. The thing is, there was no way to tell time yet. There were no days or nights, no minutes or hours. That's why it wasn't recorded in the bible. It didn't say, "Three days later (or three hours or whatever length of time you care to fill in), God said, 'Let there be light.'" It simply goes from "the earth was formless and empty" to "let there be light." What I'm trying to say is that God didn't necessarily create an adult Earth. He could have created a baby Earth and let it age normally.

reply

[–] jeff_macintosh 18 years ago

"anyway we all know we evolved from apes and the world was not formed in seven days it took millions of years. this is proven in layers of rocks. another way we know for sure is a planet isn't created by some mythical force its a common thing that can happen in the galaxy."

Actually, the fossil record disproves Darwin's Theory. Through each age, there has never been an "evolution" of any species from one age to the next. As each age passes, new species appear, without any prior fossilization from the previous age.

My church did an entire series on what Christians call apologetics. It is basically a breakdown of what has been written in the bible, and what scientific proof holds up. You would need RealPlayer to listen to them. Here are the links to the evolution part of the apologetics series.

http://www.gracefellowship.com/as051505.ram

http://www.gracefellowship.com/as052205.ram

http://www.gracefellowship.com/as052905.ram

If you have any questions, feel free to email me at [email protected]

reply

[–] supersimen 18 years ago

Thanks for posting those links . Very interesting teaching :)

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Dali-Fan 15 years ago

"The Bible does mention dinosaurs and that they did exist; it just doesn't talk about them in great detail."

Ok then, please, where in the "bible" is this mentioned?

"I would sum up my fear about the future in one word: boring." JG Ballard

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

This is a general reply to everybody.
(First of all, I am a Christian Creationist)
To quote rahki2000: What if the bible was written by not some sane man but by some insane man.

For one, the bible is inerrant. If it was written by a lunatic, don't you think there would be some flaw? It's flawless scientifically, historically, and spiritually. To switch tracks to evolution, there's a reward out for anyone who can undisputedly (pardon my spelling) prove evolution. After I think its been 20 years now, its not been claimed. If evolution was ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC FACT, it would have beenl, wouldn't it?
Now, I know you've probably heard all these arguments before, but here it goes.

1) The second law of thermodynamics says that everything goes from order to disorder. How can we have a little tiny bit of something explode, and the universe is made?
2) In response to the whole "Evolution and the age of the earth is proved by rock layers." So untrue. They've found animals sticking through 2 or more of the layers. They also found a whole petrified forest sticking through I think it was 3 "time layers".
3) in response to rahki2000 about "another way we know for sure is a planet isn't created by some mythical force its a common thing that can happen in the galaxy." When was that observed? I'd like to know where you got that from. Nothing has ever been observed being made by way of explosion! We see lots of supernova's, but they don't create anything.
4) "the bible says dinosaurs never existed." It doesn't mention the word "dinosaur," but it does mention big beasts, and actually goes into detail on its size. (Look it up Job 40: 15-24)

Okay, sorry to cut it short, but I'll type more later. Please take this into consideration!
Any questions at all, [email protected]

reply

[–] charlescurtis2003 18 years ago

(4) "the bible says dinosaurs never existed." It doesn't mention the word "dinosaur," but it does mention big beasts, and actually goes into detail on its size. (Look it up Job 40: 15-24)

Very interesting, I just went back and read that. The more I pay attention to what's going on in the world, and how there is a not-so-subtle movement to remove any and all things Christian from any sphere of influence on society, the stronger my faith becomes. Another interesting site on the web is godsaidmansaid.com there is a great discourse on dinosaurs and how they were in fact around in biblical times, and there is another website about dinosaurs possibly still here today (I know pictures can be faked, but it's pretty interesting nonetheless.)

"Better a little with the fear of the Lord than great wealth with turmoil."
Proverbs 15:16

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] NovaVita 18 years ago

-->>For one, the bible is inerrant. If it was written by a lunatic, don't you think there would be some flaw?
------There are many.

Which apparent "flaws" would you like to present for discussion? A lot of the "errors" people have tried to find in the Bible come from people who have not really taken the time to research the claims they are making about those "errors." Many are simply reaching for something to soothe their conscience which tells them that the Almighty God and creator of the universe not only exists but will hold them accountable for their actions one day. This true God of the Bible says that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men WHO SUPPRESS THE TRUTH in unrighteousness. Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen. It has been understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Romans 1:18-21

-->>It's flawless scientifically, historically, and spiritually.
------Oh really? So where exactly is that firmament that surrounds the earth that is supposed to have water on top of it?

That is a great question! It existed until the time God decreed that He would flood the earth because the "wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil CONTINUALLY." Gen6:5 That firmament was partly where all the water came from (the other part from the fountains inside the earth). "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day ALL the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened." Gen7:11 These floodgates were that firmament, and it allowed for a greenhouse effect where the whole earth was tropical and man lived longer lives as well partly because the sun's rays did not penetrate through to the earth as much as they do today.

-->If evolution was ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC FACT, it would have been, wouldn't it?
------No, because the challenge you speak of is setup in a way that nothing would ever be good enough to pass the challenge.

He is arguing against the common misconception today that evolution is ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC FACT, and yes, if it was scientific fact (which means it HAS been proven) the "reward" would have been claimed (if you knew where to make your claim).

-->>1) The second law of thermodynamics says that everything goes from order to disorder. How can we have a little tiny bit of something explode, and the universe is made?
------Oh god, not this crap again. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html

I started to read that but found that whoever wrote that had very fallable arguments. Their cited natural examples of order arising from disorder only showed folly. Chicks come from eggs? Flowering plants come from seeds? You aren't starting with disorder when you start with a seed or egg or drop of water. Now if a drop of water became a can of coke then the example would stand.

READ THIS:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/370.asp

------Explain varves. Secondly, explain why numerous independent radiometric dating systems give almost the exact same age for the earth.

Varve = A layer or series of layers of sediment deposited in a body of still water in one year. That's the definition, but I don't hear an argument here.

------"give almost the exact same age for the earth."
Almost-the-exact-same is the key phrase there. But a more accurate statement would be "they give many varied, ambiguous and inexact ages for the earth."

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] merrillg_greene 18 years ago

patlaborForce, i find it hilarious you know so little about evolution and the bible. all you do is make untrue statments and use the same questions we have anwsered over and over.

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] merrillg_greene 18 years ago

one word for you..."Fool Liar" o wait thats two words, i guess i am like you, clueless.

reply

[–] Jasons_Argonaut 18 years ago

Childish rebuttals? I guess that is an admission that PatlaborForce is right! I find it hilarious that merrill cannot argue the points being presented.

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] merrillg_greene 18 years ago

patlaborforce just keeps repeating the same questions over and over again is the problem, we have already anwsered them, and if we havent, than look it up sdont come on a chat board, do some research.

and did you notice how atheists always think there right and come up with gay questions we already anwser over and over?

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] fettigirl1 18 years ago

First off you are not an aetheist because you said the words i believe at least twice. Aetheist do not believe anything. It never says dinosaurs in the bible they didn't exist, read the bible and you will see it talks about dinosaurs in the book of JOB. It talks about fire breathing dinosaurs.

In the Bible, in Job 40:15-24, God describes to Job (who lived after the Flood) a great beast with which Job was familiar. This great animal, called ‘behemoth,’ is described as ‘the chief of the ways of God,’ perhaps the biggest land animal God had created. Impressively, he moved his tail like a cedar tree! Although some Bible commentaries say this may have been an elephant or hippopotamus, the description actually fits that of a dinosaur like Brachiosaurus. Elephants and hippos certainly do not have tails like cedar trees!

Actually, very few animals are singled out in the Bible for such a detailed description. Contrary to what many may think, what we know now as dinosaurs get more mention in the Scriptures than most animals! So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood.

If the dating methods are an objective and reliable means of determining ages, they should agree. If a chemist were measuring the sugar content of blood, all valid methods for the determination would give the same answer (within the limits of experimental error). However, with radiometric dating, the different techniques often give quite different results.

In the study of the Grand Canyon rocks by Austin, different techniques gave different results.18 Again, all sorts of reasons can be suggested for the ‘bad’ dates, but this is again posterior reasoning. Techniques that give results that can be dismissed just because they don’t agree with what we already believe cannot be considered objective.

In Australia, some wood found in Tertiary basalt was clearly buried in the lava flow that formed the basalt, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was ‘dated’ by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was ‘dated’ by potassium-argon method at 45 million years old!19

Isotope ratios or uraninite crystals from the Koongarra uranium body in the Northern Territory of Australia gave lead-lead isochron ages of 841 Ma, plus or minus 140 Ma.20 This contrasts with an age of 1550-1650 Ma based on other isotope ratios,21 and ages of 275, 61, 0,0, and 0 Ma for thorium/lead (232Th/208Pb) ratios in five uraninite grains. The latter figures are significant because thorium-derived dates should be the more reliable, since thorium is less mobile than the uranium minerals that are the parents of the lead isotopes in lead-lead system.22 The ‘zero’ ages in this case are consistent with the Bible.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

if you go to this website it explains both views and you can draw your own conclusion. www.answersingenesis.org

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] chrisisstressed 18 years ago

PatlaborForce, is there a reason why your best arguments are "Yes" and "No". You ask people to back up what they believe, to the point of requesting: "I want peer-reviewed scientific papers". - Sorry, what?

You have asked, others too, for evidence and everytime someone gives logical reasoning for why they believe that what the bible says is true and why not all science stated is reliable. You say:

"Nothing more than misrepresentations and lies."

"In fact this is actually bunk."

"They do."

"Dinosaurs didn't breath fire."

And that's in your last statement alone. Where is your proof? Or even reasoning?

You've been more than rude and people have been more than obliging with info, you have tended to just slap one piece of info down at a time saying: "Not true". If you're going to be as brazen as to request "peer-reviewed scientific papers" but supply none of your own for your opinions on our info, then you're obviously here only to slap people down, not for any intelligent discussion.

Therefore, wasting our time answering your questions, PatlaborForce, is exactly that: a waste of time.

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"First off you are not an aetheist because you said the words i believe at least twice. Aetheist do not believe anything"

Huh? Atheists do not believe in God, simple as that. What does believing in science or or methods of proving an argument have to do with anything? Very baffling remark, to be sure.

"The ‘zero’ ages in this case are consistent with the Bible.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp";

With all due respect, are there any sites that can back your claim up that aren't biased to Christianity...any nuetral sites? There are websites that back up any idea one may purport, but that doesn't make it right or valid. I mean, the Bible Codes are absolutely ridiculous, yet there are sites that "prove" them as well. Get my drift? You are on 'Answers In Genesis...Upholding the authority of the Bible from the very first verse' simply because it happens to say what you like to hear. It is guilty of twisting things to fit a belief, not the other way around as proof would require.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

Wow I havn't been on here for awhile. Good job guys! (The ones that are Christians. The ones that aren't, I'm praying for you.)

First off, if science doesn't agree with the bible, than its not science. Not the other way around.
Lets put science off for a bit and think about logic.
Look around the room your in. Is there a chair, or a shelf? Someone made it, right? How do you know that? Well, its THERE. It EXISTS. That means at some time, someone made it. If I said the watch I'm wearing was 10 minutes ago a pile of scrap metal, then I put I firecracker in it and BOOM it became a G-Force Casio watch, you'd think I was crazy!!!
Evolution is totally and completely FALSE. Its a fairy-tale for grown ups. (I'm not trying to insult anybody..)

Most scientists now agree that the chances of coming from a big-bang and making this earth PERFECT, the PERFECT distance from the sun, and the PERFECT angle, with the PERFECT amount of atmosphere and the PERFECT distance from the moon is to great. So they now have the theory "There are millions and millions of planets like ours, but not with the perfect settings for life. We just happen to be on the one that there is." First of all, the matter that started the "big bang" would still have to be created. Thats the main agrument. Put everything else aside, and the BEGINNING HAD TO BE CREATED.

Now I'm not saying Creationism is scientific fact in the worlds eyes, because scientific fact has to be "measurable, observable, and repeatable." (My science teacher GRILLED that to the class. =) But that means evolution isn't fact either. I do believe in the seven day creation, and that it IS fact, because the bible says so, though. But we're still called to have faith.

"Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see."
(thats in the bible. I think somewhere in Titus...)
So I still need faith, but not half as much as evolutionists do in believing we came from a speck into humans with brains 100 times advanced than the most high tech computer.
Bash me, do whatever you want, but I have Jesus.
Can we get away from science for awhile, and address the question "do you believe in God"? Please? All agruing does is makes the non-Christians close their minds.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"Can we get away from science for awhile, and address the question "do you believe in God"? Please? All agruing does is makes the non-Christians close their minds."

Or is it the other way around? The more science has logical theories, the more Christians stick their fingers in their ears and sing "LALALALALALALA" at the top of their lungs. You made a whole case for your point of view, then ask to drop the subject because it turns people off. Give me a break, you just want the last word and I'm calling your hand on it!

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

I'm happy to hear your opinions about "true" science. What I was trying to say is, we're obviously not convincing you. You obviously have closed your mind. So why don't we go to "Do you believe in God?"
Do you? (I have a feeling the answer is no..)
Where are you going when you die?
Will you go to heaven?

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

The whole point being that the other side can be considered close minded just as easily, not just those who don't share your viewpoint. Anyhow...

"Do you believe in God?"

I was a very strong believer of the Christian faith in God and Jesus for over twenty years of my life, but now I am not. I believe in possibilities. Allow me to quote myself from another recent thread from earlier today, if you don't mind...

Being open to the possibility that God could be there is exactly why I do not claim to be athiest. I don't think religion of any kind knows what it is talking about or has a clue as to what God "might" be about if he exists, but due to our inability to prove or disprove the very idea, I am simply open to possibilities and nothing more, awaiting soem kind of proof in my life to reveal more than I know now. If that evidence never comes, I will be godless I suppose.

I may get misconstued as an "athiest", but my arguments are usually with people who pretend that they have the one true answer in religion. As humans, we convince ourselves by rationalizations and leaps of faith, but I fail to see the point of doing that. I cannot rationalize away the fact that so many religions exist out there and that all who follow them believe in their point of view just as adamantly as you believe in yours. What is belief, but the "mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something" (dictionary.com). Belief requires no proof, but that simply isn't good enough for me anymore. Every time one steps back to ask questions of this nature, it is shot down by fellow believers as giving in to Satan or something equally silly. I have come to realize that this is built in to religion for the sole purpose of discouraging people from knowledge. I am not saying that this makes one stupid, but it prevents one from realizing truth, whether it be what we currently understand in the scientific world or whether it is being able to see how obviously manipulating every religion can be to people. The more I pondered and asked, the less satisfying any answer from a believer was. It is all about having blind faith in something, but again, that is not good enough. If the reasons behind one's faith cannot be explained better than "it is because God says so", is it really worth hanging onto? Every explanation I get takes me back to the Bible, but that is not proof that there is a supernatural anything out there, but rather just a book that says so. Believe it because it says so? I don't think so. Why not believe the Quaran because it or it's followers say so? Why not believe George W. Bush merely because he says so? I ask question, and nobody has adequate answers, leaving me to believe that it is nothing more than one's choice to subscribe to what they are told. I can no longer do that.

"Where are you going when you die? Will you go to heaven?"

I don't know as I'll go anywhere, and neither do you really. I know you believe that you do, but there is nothing that proves heaven or hell as valid realities in the afterlife. Hell is a funny idea to me anyhow, for it is one of those obvious creations designed for the sole purpose of scaring people into either believing or maintaining their belief. Hell isn't just a Christian idea either, seeing that Islam has one, and heck, even those who truly believed in what we now refer to as Greek Mythology believed in Hades, which was basically the exact same principle. Believe "this" way, or suffer the consequences for eternity. My question...which way? So many religions, so many believers for each, so many proclamations of absolute truth, so many blind followers, how is one to truly know? When you ponder that question, you begin to realize that there is absolutley no way to know anything other than what one convinces themselves to believe. Fear of the unknown drives this mentality. I merely accept the unknown as just that, the unknown. If God were real, I have no doubt that he would make his truth very easy to spot as opposed to it being so questionable that that over three quarters of the population will end up in this supposed hell. It's laughable when you think about it all. This is why religion tries so hard to discourage people from pondering these kind of things, for it is a threat to the blind adherance we all seem to have at one time or another in life.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

There is ONE God. All these other religions are false; mans way of not following the true God. You believe in absolutes, right? Well, that means I'm right, or I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then when you die and I die, we just go into the ground. If I'm right, then I go to heaven and you go to hell. Its as simple as that. I can't comprehend how you were a Christian for 20 years and then fell away. What went wrong?

You basically said "I don't know where I'm going. I'll know when someone gives me proof."
What do you think I'm doing? Telling you lies?

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"There is ONE God"

Or not.

"All these other religions are false; mans way of not following the true God"

Just as one example off the top of my head, Islam says theexact same thing and Christians will go to hell. Proclaiming your belief as absolute truth only means that you think it just like a Muslim thinks their way.

"Well, that means I'm right, or I'm wrong"

Yep, it certainly does.

"If I'm wrong, then when you die and I die, we just go into the ground. If I'm right, then I go to heaven and you go to hell"

So again, based upon unknowns, I should subscribe to your belief over the others because??? Religions, not just Christianity, use this hell idea as a tactic to get people to stay with that particular belief. Your a blatant example of this, using the whole "if you're wrong, you're damned" argument on me. I am sorry, but I see that as nothing more than a built in manipulation tactic of religion.

"I can't comprehend how you were a Christian for 20 years and then fell away. What went wrong?"

I just started to realize that I couldn't keep on suppressing who I am to satisfy God, who never acted in my life other than when I convinced myself that it was him. I watched people, and I saw how they treated me over being gay. When long time Christian friends (sixteen years) ditch you over something this trivial, even though I was doing my best, it is cause to step back and wonder exactly what this religion is really all about, realistically speaking. Like I already said, I just started asking questions and not accepting the status of believing in it just because. I struggled to hang on to my belief in the Christian God for the next few years, worrying about hell and all that stuff as well, asking God for help. Well, seeing that he isn't really there, it all amounted to nothing. No, I was not convinced to give up on Christianity by other non-believers, but rather it was just my own realizations about how blindly I had followed something that was all just in my head to begin with. I know that you'll think that I was never really a Christian to begin with, but I dare you to try and speak about the faith I used to have. The mind is very powerful on a psychological level, for if one is convinced, then they can actually make themselves feel like God is in control, speaking through us, or whatever. I reality, we are merely rationalizing our own thoughts and projecting it upon an image we call God. I know you "feel" god, but so did I. I did truly believe in God, but I see now what a waste of time it all was. I just happened to realize that what I was feeling was never God to begin with, but rather my own desire for it to be true.

"What do you think I'm doing? Telling you lies?"

You believe it, so I wouldn't accuse you of actively lying. Still, I see no reason to accept what your version of the truth is. All you have really given me so far is that I should believe it because you do.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

I was saying "if" for your sake, because you were saying thats what I "believe".

"Islam says theexact same thing and Christians will go to hell."
The Qur'an also says that the sun sets in a mud-pool at the end of the world. We now know that isn't true.

So what excatly do you believe? in god? In hell? in heaven?
No, I won't try and tell you you were never a Christian. A lot of Christians fall away. (93% of public schoolers)

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"The Qur'an also says that the sun sets in a mud-pool at the end of the world. We now know that isn't true."

So Islam's teachings are all literal, but all the silliness found throughout the Bible is metaphorical??

"No, I won't try and tell you you were never a Christian"

Thanks.

"A lot of Christians fall away. (93% of public schoolers)"

I hate to sound as though I am beating a dead horse here, but that sounds to me like education plays a role in dispelling the myths of the Bible. Just a thought.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

"So Islam's teachings are all literal, but all the silliness found throughout the Bible is metaphorical??"

That's just one of many contradictions, man. Check this out:

http://www.carm.org/islam/Koran_contradictions.htm

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"That's just one of many contradictions, man. Check this out:

http://www.carm.org/islam/Koran_contradictions.htm";

The Bible is full of contradictions too, check this out:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

If the Bible really is the inerrant word of God as so many proclaim it to be, then these inconsistencies wouldn't exist. What does all of this prove? That all religion is man made and full of holes, that's what. Muslims will bend over backwards to deny any contradictions in their text, but then so will Christians. It changes absolutely nothing about my earlier comment, "Islam says the exact same thing and Christians will go to hell. Proclaiming your belief as absolute truth only means that you 'think it' just like a Muslim thinks their way". They believe theirs, you believe yours, but both are flawed religions made up by man in an attempt to fill in the gaps of the unknown. One has no more validity than the next. Don't have a double standard and go around pointing out other religions flaws while ignoring/rationalizing the simple fact that Christianity has them as well.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] mendezjb 18 years ago

still haven't read a skeptic's supposed contradiction that has not been refuted

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"still haven't read a skeptic's supposed contradiction that has not been refuted"

Nor have I read any evidence of supernatural goings on that are proclaimed in the Bible that are anything more than the writers opinion made to sound like facts. Christians have a rationalization for everything, so it doesn't surprise me that you'd not see any skeptics argument refuted. I'm sure the Muslims refuse to see the contradictions in their respective beliefs as well.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] chrisisstressed 18 years ago

"Islam says theexact same thing and Christians will go to hell. Proclaiming your belief as absolute truth only means that you think it just like a Muslim thinks their way.

...

I see no reason to accept what your version of the truth is."
- One thing sets Christianity apart from all other religions: the fact that in all religions we are told we must atone for our wrong-doings, our sins. Christianity is the only religion that gives you an active answer on how to do that.

"All you have really given me so far is that I should believe it because you do."
- Christians can sometimes get wrapped up in our faith, so much so that we can't understand another's wish to deny themselves what we have.

Other can get so wrapped up that they follow blindly even though we're encouraged to study and question.

Some can get so wrapped up that they see something in the bible and take it for its face value (my mother was originally part of a Christian church that maintained that women were below men - a good example of taking words from then bible at face value)

Or some can take on one part of the bible but ignore another (you no doubt can give people a good example of what can happen at these times).

P.S. this message is not directed to insult stage magician. I'm talking in general.

reply

[–] chrisisstressed 18 years ago

One Extra point, i was public schooled and i still believe.

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

Sorry, I'm confused. You're arguing with me, and your a Christian?

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] chrisisstressed 18 years ago

Actually i backed you up on one point and on the next i explained to DOUBLEFACEDJANUS why he shouldn't base what Christianity is on all Christians, we're still human so we can come off wrong or be taken wrong. And sometimes we can BE wrong - in relation to those who shunned him in his past church experiences.

Me being from public school is fact, and i was avid in science so i replying to DFJ about his comment on public schools.

Have i misscommunicated or missed something?

reply

[–] stagemagician101 18 years ago

No, I was just tired. =) Do you mind if I PM you?

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

reply

[–] chrisisstressed 18 years ago

Sorry for such a space of time between replies; feel free to PM.

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 18 years ago

"Me being from public school is fact, and i was avid in science so i replying to DFJ about his comment on public schools"

My comment was merely a response to the fact presented to me that 93% of public schoolers fall away from Christianity. I never alluded to the fact that this was true for everyone, but merely suggested that education does in fact play a role in exposing myth from reality.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] chrisisstressed 18 years ago

"I never alluded to the fact that this was true for everyone, but merely suggested that education does in fact play a role in exposing myth from reality."
- school gives you a grounding or basis with which to recieve the world, this is added to the grounding you get from your parents. And to be honest in my experience it doesn't matter who you are or what your background or education is. I'm sure you noticed in the past that there is no one background that people come from when they become Christians and no one background if they "fall" away, as you put it.

Also, DoubleFacedJanus, no doubt your faith was important to you at one time, so i'm sure you can understand why i'm starting to feel offended by your labeling of my faith as "myth". I'm taking it to be your opinion but it does get offensive when you use it in the context you have to describe something which both me and StageMagician101 obviously believe strongly in.

Here's four definitions of the word, because meaning is important:
- A myth is a product of human imagination.
- A myth is defined as something generally held to be true but is, in fact, not true.
- A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes.
- A myth is a fiction -- something which is untrue.

Though there are various others, i am assuming that this is what you are trying to have come across with your use of the word. Naturally it is therefore easy to understand any offense at that comment, when these are the various meanings atrributed to your discription of our faith.

Like i said, no doubt you know how important a Christian's faith is to them, its the equivalent of me mocking the value of something you hold dear. So i'd greatly appreciate it if you weren't so decisively derogatory in future, though that is your belief so i'm not going to hold it against you. (This was said lightly though it doesn't come across as such.)

"Belief and Reality aren't just close, they skew across each other all the time." - Chris McCartney

reply

[–] Lonehawk1 18 years ago

Wow. What a thread. Some very smart people here on both "sides." It's been a very interesting read on my part. I hope no one minds if I jump in here for a moment. (Pardon the splash!) : P

This is just my humble two cents worth. : )

First of all, you can not argue anyone into a belief. Oh sure, you can argue facts, conclusions, quantifications of all sorts, methods etc. and that makes for some great debates. Quite enjoyable ones actually if all involved stay civil; however a belief takes a "leap of faith" as the saying goes. I mean really, what this thread is all about is beliefs. (For the most part anyways, I've no doubt forgotten some of what I've just read. LOL). Believing that there is no God takes just as much a leap of faith as believing there is some sort of God. IMHO.

I'd like to comment on knowledge. We get knowledge from so many different places. We start off with getting it from our parents. Then school, then the possibilities get much greater. (Especially now with the internet. Which is a cool and scary thought at the same time).

There are people here who say they believe in God or they don't believe in God but believe in science/evolution etc. Ok, that's cool; but what do you "know" about those beliefs? Hmmm, kind of a tricky question in that one could spend so much time answering it and never really nail it.

Well, I would just like to say that I know God exists. (Aha! Probably wondering which side I was on eh? LOL. Well now it comes out). I know because the Holy Spirit revealed the truth about Christ to me giving me a direct relationship with God. I can only say that when God lets you know something, He doesn't mess around.

Now I'm not trying to convince anyone or argue God's existence. I would however like to extend an invitation to those argueing that God does not exist. Simply this: one night when you have privacy (are alone) spend a minute or two in a sincere conversation with God. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you somehow. You don't have to let anyone know, you can just keep it between you, yourself and God. But please make the conversation or attempt sincere, from the heart, you know what I mean. : )

What have you got to lose? Really? A couple of minutes that no one will ever know about? For the chance to know the Almighty God and be given a place in heaven for eternity? You are risking nothing with the potential reward of everything good.

God really does love you ("you" being anyone reading this. Famous passage quote coming up.....John 3:16..it really is true).

Luke 11:9-10:"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Once God lets you know something, He will give you the faith you need and grow it, you won't have to "work" or "try" to believe. Faith from God is real, it's not optimism or delusion. [End of sermon. : ) ]

God has given me so much in my life. Love, strength where I thought I had none, so many good things at so many perfectly timed moments. He straightened me out when I was crooked and is constantly replacing bitterness and selfishness with love and kindness. I guess I just wish everyone could know God's grace.

I hope I didn't offend anyone and to the Christians here I just wanted to make this friendly reminder: to do all that we do for Christ (debates and whatnot) with love as our true motivation. (2 Cor. chapter 13). If we let ourselves fall out of that motivation, to want to truly help people know God, then all our efforts are worthless.

Oh, and pardon the lengthy "splash." I tried to sum up but there was too much so I had to esplain. (Side trivia Q: Please "esplain" what movie I'm hinting to). : )

Peace and God bless you all.

P.S. Oh, and don't stop the debates on my account. LOL. Really, I'm getting a real education in this thread. I love science; relatively speaking that is.

==If time flies when your having fun; how does it get around when you're bored? :P==

reply

[–] karatekidnumber1 14 years ago

No offense, but it was kind of obvious to me that you weren't talking about everyone. 93% is less than 100%, so not everyone would be included.

reply

[–] karatekidnumber1 14 years ago

In my translation, the word "tail" could also mean "trunk." I guess that's where they're getting the elephant reference. I don't know where they got hippos from, though.

reply

[–] blaquelady7 17 years ago

thks to Lonehawk1 for your comment ! we need more like those !

I'm replying to rahki2000's comment. Plz take 5 minutes to read this. First of all, I'd like to say that I respect your opinion and you're right, you need more proofs, you need answers to your questions.

But guess what? Religion what invented by humans. What we all need in this crazy world is a relationship with Jesus-Christ, that's all He's asking. God is the God of love. What is wrong with the idea of loving God and loving one another ? The problem is that some humans have not understood well the message and took the name of God to do some stupid stuff.

Now, as an answer to what you were saying " What if we were all told a lie what if religion is really about making people believe their is a higher power. What if for over two thousand years all the religious sects have been doing is spreading false hope and what if the bible was written by not some sane man but by some insane man. "

Well, first of all, the true believers that have a real relationship with Jesus-Christ cannot say that there is no higher power because there are things that happens in our life that we have never experienced before knowing Jesus-Christ. I could tell you more about it if you want.

Second, well let's say it would be all a lie (it's only a supposition). Well you know what ? I prefer to live a beautiful life as I'm living right now (thanks to God) with no fear. I do not put my hopes on money (that makes people greedy), on my job (that makes people do burn-outs), on people (you can have a lot of deceptions), and the list goes on but only to God and He has never deceived me once !

I prefer to live a life (that's only about 75 years) of love, giving, sharing and following Jesus-Christ's footsteps ( a perfect exemple of a good leader of all times), then die and sleep peacefully maybe not even realizing this was all a lie because I would be sleeping eternally, than to live a life on Earth without Jesus-Christ and ignoring all the facts presented to me and then see that all of this was actually true !! As described in the Bible Hell is not sweet at all (pain and suffering) and Jesus talked about it also, if it was false He would have said it.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but at this time, it will be too late cause there won't be no second chance when you die.

So I'm asking you to reconsider this, to give it a try for only 6 months (what's 6 months compared to 75 years on earth). Ask God to send you the people that are really true to him to help you during this period but you have to be open so God can talk to you. If you really take this 6 months seriously, there's no way you'll not be experiencing the love of God for 2007 and you won't be able to say you didn't tried.

Better be safe than sorry ...

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 17 years ago

As usual, a believer who has the talent of ascribing all the good in life to God in his attempt to witness to the lost completely BLOWS it all by tacking on the typical scare tactic..."believe our way or suffer burning death and torment in hell for all eternity!" Face it, I summed it up better than your longer paragraph did. I will always find the attempt to manipulate somebody with the old "Better be safe than sorry" routine pretty humorous, if not ultimately pathetic! You can live a life of love and peace without marrying yourself to a fairy tale and/or offering up the damnation scare tactic, which shows that you are scared into believing. Yes, doing that speaks louder than any claim of "happiness due to god/jesus/whatever" that you can possible make. Snap out of it.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] jewel101891 17 years ago

Christianity is about FAITH! It doesn't matter how the earth was created. It's about believing. I love God with all my heart mind and soul and that is what's important. God is the rock of my life and I hope someday he'll become yours. I am a high schooler and face people who disagree with me everyday so don't hold back on your thoughts. I love Jesus and am praying for your souls. Knowing GOd is the important thing!

i believe the verse someone tried quoting earlier is Hebrews 11:1 "Now, Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" You gotta have faith like a child to see.

reply

[–] rewofnew 17 years ago

I won't give you the turn or burn speach you've heard it before and most of the time it doesn't change anyones mind.

I will just share a bit of my life with you and you can take it or leave it.
I was not taught about hell before my conversion so I wasn't scared into anything. I was taught about Jesus that he is God was God and always will be God and the fact is he Loves me and you for that matter and it has nothing to do with what you do. after listening to this Dude talk about Jesus in a real way I considered my life to that point and made a choice by faith to belive Jesus is who he said he was. and that I could be foever forgiven of the sin in my life. That sin was real to me before anyone told me anything about Jesus I called it my darkside and my grumpy nature. the other part that made me belive was I met people who showed me Love without wanting anything in return. Until that point in my life I was loved for what I could do for the people in my life it was you know the I love you if thing.

will i have went on longer that I planned so I will leave you with this.
Jesus was crusifyed for our sin was buried and on the third day rose from the dead was seen of over 400 witnesses and now sits at the right hand of God the Father.

You can make your comments and I will read them and I ask no change from you you are the one who decides what you will have faith in plus I should have waited until I wasn't as tired as I am to write this cause as I look back over this it seems I have forgoten everything I learnd in english class LOL

God bless you

reply

[–] chrisrocket1942 17 years ago

This thread has gotten really long so I doubt anyone will ever read this...

Personally, I am a bit sceptical of taking the bible literally. As to what I know for certain the bible to be, that would be a good set of living standards that would be nice to apply to someone of any religion, a handful of archetypal religious stories (we weren't the first to write about a "Great Flood"... but maybe that's because it actually happened, who knows) and at the very least, a great metaphor.

The reasoning behind this is actually human nature, but not mine. Looking throughout European history, it is very safe to say that we have not always been blessed with the high-caliber papacy that we know today. During the Renaissance we see entire families fighting to keep control of the Roman Catholic church, and I can't remember the guys name (but will look it up if someone calls me on it) but there was some pope that was known for actually following troops into battle and drawing a blood of the enemy. Through all of the inconsistences of the Church, I find it hard to believe that the bible had never been edited for political gain. Or at the very least had some of it lost in translation.

And I would just like to point out that Mr. Cameron's belief that the banana disproves evolution, because it fits perfectly into our hands and has a little handle. Well... monkies eat bananas too.

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 17 years ago

Great post, chris, and very on target about the idiot banana incident. Kirk and Ray should be ashamed of themselves on that!

"we weren't the first to write about a "Great Flood"... but maybe that's because it actually happened, who knows"

Myth builds on real events, so I am sure that there may have been a very bad flood at some point, though I doubt that it covered the Earth or that Noah herded one pair of every creature aboard it. Deception is rooted in truth. The bible has just enough truth to catch people, leading them to believe every ridiculous thing it says.

"Through all of the inconsistences of the Church, I find it hard to believe that the bible had never been edited for political gain"

Yet people are willing to ignore anything that counters their blind devotion. Go figure. Personally, I'd love to hear more about this war mongeringing Pope you spoke of.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] jamesmike87 17 years ago

Whatever you believe to be true, I admire you for it. It is much better to believe in something that gives you purpose for living, than to believe in nothing at all.

"The truth is this - nothing less and nothing more - that no man knows nor has any man ever known where we come from at birth or where we go at death. Any person claiming otherwise is either deceiving himself or he is a conscious impostor who makes it a business to live without rendering service of value, through play upon the credulity of humanity." - Napoleon Hill, Law of Success

Indeed one may have faith of where they will go after they die, but no man nor any woman knows with 100% certainty, for if they did, they would not believe, they would know. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing - that is faith.

We all have free will and have the right to choose what we believe in. Realize that any man you correct or condemn will justify himself or herself and condemn you in return. Why is this? Because our beliefs are determined by our environment and our experiences within that environment; and furthermore, our beliefs make up the core of who we are.

Therefore, I encourage all of you to accept and respect each others beliefs, for people are just the way you or I would be under similar circumstances.

reply

[–] helena_nouwens 16 years ago

Please try n use punctuation, Rewofnew, it gets very tiring to the eyes... :)

reply

[–] CalloftheWild619 17 years ago

If you see a painting do you need proof or to have faith to know or believe that there is a painter? No because the evidence is right there in front of your eyes. In the same way, when you look at the creation in Earth and the natural order of things in the universe, do you need proof or to have faith to know or believe that there is a creator? Just open the eyes of your "mind". A painting doesn't paint itself. An airplane does not build itself. Those things are created by a designer, us humans. Is there a purposeful intentional design to the paintings and airplanes or is it just random coincidences? The human body and mind is more complex than the nature of the universe, yet we still don't comprehend the universe. If everything, including us, is just meaningless random coincides without design or purpose, then by your belief, your own existence means nothing. In fact, your words that you've typed and will ever say, which comes from your body and mind is just a life of no specific designer or creator and with no purpose in mind, would be forgotten shortly after your time here on Earth, if not, contain no value in it whatsoever. Also, when you think about it, Atheism is a religion in itself. Your god is you and you worship yourself, plain and simple. I'm not dissing on you and I respect your belief; I'm just saying it how it is. :)

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 17 years ago

"If you see a painting do you need proof or to have faith to know or believe that there is a painter? No because the evidence is right there in front of your eyes. In the same way, when you look at the creation in Earth and the natural order of things in the universe, do you need proof or to have faith to know or believe that there is a creator?"

What asinine logic. When I look at a painting, I know it is a painting because I possess knowledge of paint, canvas, brushes, and the skill of creating a picture. No mystery there. There is NOTHING to suggest or prove that the Earth is a creation by some magical being. That stems from your inability to simply admit that there are some things that are unknown. We have science fact to help us understand how the Earth works here and now, and theory about what led to it based on those facts. Science isn't the last word, but it certainly is better than sitting back and making up stories that get proclaimed as fact. Religion (including christianity) has no foundation or basis in anything more than make-believe, as people fantasized and proclaimed that a "god" told them in a vision. Wow, anyone can do that.

"If everything, including us, is just meaningless random coincides without design or purpose, then by your belief, your own existence means nothing"

What is wrong of scary about that? I don't need a fantasy to get by in life. I don't need "god" to have meaning, but simply make the most of what I have. This need by people for their existence to mean more is what leads to religion, and why there are so many across the board. Yours is certainly no different. This need is born out of fear of the unknown, but the unknown is nothing thats should be feared. It is easy to accept as just that. Why create a bunch of baseless fantasy to explain something?

"Also, when you think about it, Atheism is a religion in itself. Your god is you and you worship yourself, plain and simple. I'm not dissing on you and I respect your belief; I'm just saying it how it is."

Yes, we have heard that crap before, and if it makes you feel better to think that, then fine by me. Certainly, it doesn't make it so, just like all of the baseless opinion you just posted. You think that because you believe it, it is true. Every believer of every religion has the exact same view, but you all can't be right. In fact, there is no real or valid reason for ANY of you to be right. None at all. You aren't "saying it how it is", but rather just projecting your personal view as fact. You and a million others do that every day about a million different viewpoints.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] CalloftheWild619 17 years ago

"What asinine logic. When I look at a painting, I know it is a painting because I possess knowledge of paint, canvas, brushes, and the skill of creating a picture. No mystery there. There is NOTHING to suggest or prove that the Earth is a creation by some magical being. That stems from your inability to simply admit that there are some things that are unknown. We have science fact to help us understand how the Earth works here and now, and theory about what led to it based on those facts. Science isn't the last word, but it certainly is better than sitting back and making up stories that get proclaimed as fact. Religion (including christianity) has no foundation or basis in anything more than make-believe, as people fantasized and proclaimed that a "god" told them in a vision. Wow, anyone can do that.

What is wrong of scary about that? I don't need a fantasy to get by in life. I don't need "god" to have meaning, but simply make the most of what I have. This need by people for their existence to mean more is what leads to religion, and why there are so many across the board. Yours is certainly no different. This need is born out of fear of the unknown, but the unknown is nothing thats should be feared. It is easy to accept as just that. Why create a bunch of baseless fantasy to explain something?
Yes, we have heard that crap before, and if it makes you feel better to think that, then fine by me. Certainly, it doesn't make it so, just like all of the baseless opinion you just posted. You think that because you believe it, it is true. Every believer of every religion has the exact same view, but you all can't be right. In fact, there is no real or valid reason for ANY of you to be right. None at all. You aren't "saying it how it is", but rather just projecting your personal view as fact. You and a million others do that every day about a million different viewpoints."

Do I LOOK like I'm lording it over you? No, so stop talking to me like I am. Please. Check it on Wiktionary --- and check yourself at the door. Listen closely, have you ever been in real nature before --- AWAY from civilization, in aboriginal to amazonian jungles and native forests, or where the stars "_live in_" the "_night rainbow sky_", with nothing but the oblivious silence of nature and the sounds of a "_rain forest_", along with the vast emptiness of space surrounding our "watery" sky? I have and let me you that once you're in a "place" one with nature, you would realize its intricate to grand design that speaks profoundly of nature's "personal creator", if not "creating force". Check this out, "_all_" I'm saying is we believe IN God because He IS true, not the other way around, ya' hear. We're not saying "_He is true because we believe so_", rather, we are saying, "we believe so because HE IS true"_. we've come to know Him by "many long experiences" to be true. Since He was found to be true, therefore, we believe in Him. I hope you are hearing me and not listening to me. Come as you are then!

reply

[–] PulpFiction16 17 years ago

" Also, when you think about it, Atheism is a religion in itself. Your god is you and you worship yourself, plain and simple. I'm not dissing on you and I respect your belief; I'm just saying it how it is. :)"

That makes no sense. Think about this, if lack of belief of god is a religion, wouldn't that be the same thing as saying that not collecting stamps is a hobby. The point of Atheism is that you do not believe in any religion. To not believe is not to have a belief in not believing. That's an oxymoron.

No PJ No Hobbit: http://www.petitiononline.com/hobnow/petition.html

reply

[–] CalloftheWild619 17 years ago

You're getting mixed up with the definition of "god" and "religion". "god" could be you, your wife, your work, your hobby. For instance, a person can make anything into "their god", be it someones else or themselves. "Religion" is not merely the disbelief in a god nor is just a common belief in something that is shared by a group of people. "Religion", as I don't define it in the traditional sense, is a group of people who share a common belief OR disbelief that prevents a close intimate personal relationship with the one true God who whoever that may be.

Now, let's say for the sake of the discussion, that you're an Atheist who doesn't believe in god or any gods. So what do you passionately believe to be the encompassing ambition that defines who you are, or, how do you define your own existence?

reply

[–] darthmaul_k3 17 years ago

Three terms for everyone to look up -

Theistic Evolution

Fine-Tunning Argument

Kalaam Cosmological Argument

Keep in mind that none of these are Christian persay, they are just theories(good ones i might add) to try and show its reasonable for the existence of a god. I feel if these were pushed into public knowledge more, then there would be a lot less people falling out of their faiths (multiple religions) because of creation problems and science, etc.

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 17 years ago

Hmmm, it all sounds like theologies designed with the sole purpose of making what believers want to be true to actually be true. It's as if the entire idea[s] is driven by a bias to begin with...the bias being an intention to show that an intelligent designer is responsible for the world/universe. The last two theories especially. Theistic Evolution is nothing more than another attempt by religion to adapt itself to new theories/discoveries. Doing so gives me even more reason to doubt religion, as it continually bending over backwards to accommodate what cannot be denied in the world of science as time goes by. A true word of god wouldn't need to do this. It's made even more ludicrous that a theory such as evolution is deemed necessary to be incorporated. I find evolution to be a rather fascinating theory, but I don't see how it could ever possibly be proven as absolute fact.

All of this stems from an inherent need by humans to think they understand everything. If our science hasn't advanced far enough to offer factual explanations at this time, then swoops in the religious folk who take the opportunity to proclaim their fiction as fact. After all, god cannot be disproven, right? Of course, that makes every person's ideas of god feasible, and the claim that this or that religion is the ONE TRUTH a ludicrous and laughable claim. In essence, these theories can be utilized to prove any given religion as the correct one, depending on what background or viewpoint you happen to espouse.

Of course, I wonder exactly why we need to avoid acknowledging the unknown? Why is it so necessary to fill the void? Well, I prefer to fill the void with what is scientifically feasible. Where does anyone get off thinking that lack of current understanding must mean there is a god? Well, that has been the approach used since the dawn of man, apparently. No explanation? It must be a god. Well, time has unraveled the need for many a god through the years. Why should our current gods be any different as knowledge continues to expand? I am sorry, but none of this makes me ponder something as magical as a deity. It just doesn't. I have no problem acknowledging the great unknown, nor do I have a problem with the fact that I will die and many more generations beyond me will die before further answers become available. I don't need to pretend like I have some understanding or insight into deities. I see no reason to even entertain the notion.

You are right about one thing, though. If people who are already believers would read more of this, it would feed their idea of truth and therefore justify their clinging to mythology as an explanation for the unknown.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] CalloftheWild619 16 years ago

"Hmmm, it all sounds like theologies designed with the sole purpose of making what believers want to be true to actually be true. It's as if the entire idea[s] is driven by a bias to begin with...the bias being an intention to show that an intelligent designer is responsible for the world/universe. The last two theories especially. Theistic Evolution is nothing more than another attempt by religion to adapt itself to new theories/discoveries. Doing so gives me even more reason to doubt religion, as it continually bending over backwards to accommodate what cannot be denied in the world of science as time goes by. A true word of god wouldn't need to do this. It's made even more ludicrous that a theory such as evolution is deemed necessary to be incorporated. I find evolution to be a rather fascinating theory, but I don't see how it could ever possibly be proven as absolute fact."
The problem with theistic evolution is that it borrows naturalistic assumptions to explain how God created everything. IOW, religious people trying to justify their beliefs by interpreting their scripture by science instead of exclusively sticking with their own theological beliefs. There's no room for evolution in the place of religion, at least in the bible.

"All of this stems from an inherent need by humans to think they understand everything. If our science hasn't advanced far enough to offer factual explanations at this time, then swoops in the religious folk who take the opportunity to proclaim their fiction as fact. After all, god cannot be disproven, right? Of course, that makes every person's ideas of god feasible, and the claim that this or that religion is the ONE TRUTH a ludicrous and laughable claim. In essence, these theories can be utilized to prove any given religion as the correct one, depending on what background or viewpoint you happen to espouse."
You're using a strawman argument, unless you're arguing against those who try to represent their faith as scientific fact. That's why it's called faith. If there were facts in that place then there is no place for faith. And I see nothing wrong with trusting that an incomprehensible being who knows everything could exist. But I have a problem if someone tries to say that the existence of God is more fact than faith.

"Of course, I wonder exactly why we need to avoid acknowledging the unknown? Why is it so necessary to fill the void? Well, I prefer to fill the void with what is scientifically feasible. Where does anyone get off thinking that lack of current understanding must mean there is a god? Well, that has been the approach used since the dawn of man, apparently. No explanation? It must be a god. Well, time has unraveled the need for many a god through the years. Why should our current gods be any different as knowledge continues to expand? I am sorry, but none of this makes me ponder something as magical as a deity. It just doesn't. I have no problem acknowledging the great unknown, nor do I have a problem with the fact that I will die and many more generations beyond me will die before further answers become available. I don't need to pretend like I have some understanding or insight into deities. I see no reason to even entertain the notion."
you seem like a reasonable thinker. I believe iam too. However i've also thought about this alot and I have to say it actually takes ALOT MORE faith to believe in evolution and the big bang theory and that everything was just created by chance, as opposed to one supreme being creating it all. And of course you still have the bigger and deeper question of what initiated the big bang in the first place? What existed before the big bang? We cant answer these questions because the concept of eternity simply boggles the human mind! Which is further proof humans are truelly just creatures of time, we live by the clock and we die by the clock. However God is eternal an immortal being. Hence why we dont understand it and he does. So whipping your BIG BANG out of thin air seems alot more ridiculous and hard to believe in my opinion.

"If people who are already believers would read more of this, it would feed their idea of truth and therefore justify their clinging to mythology as an explanation for the unknown."
That is an explanation of existentialism not for any particular religion/cult/myth/idea.

reply

[–] Star-Wars-Lover 16 years ago

Plus the whole story about Adam and Eve is BS anyway we all know we evolved from apes and the world was not formed in seven days it took millions of years. this is proven in layers of rocks. another way we know for sure is a planet isn't created by some mythical force its a common thing that can happen in the galaxy. Another thing is in certain bibles it says dinosaurs never existed or doesn't say exactly that but it says something along the lines and their is evidence they did exist.
<br><br>
Formed from apes? Yeah, right, buddy. THAT is BS, not Adam and Eve. And The Big bang Theory? Yeeeahhhh. Out of nothing, something just farted into existence. ROFL! You're full of crap, no offense. If there was nothing at one point, how does gas just appear and start fluctuating in an empty space and burst into a universe? God is by far the best answer we've got. And rocks don't prove anything. They're rocks. You can't date back a frillion years ago, just by looking at it, putting it into a computer, etc. It's very far-fetched to say a rock is one point eight trillion years old just by looking at carbon in it. It doesn't speak to you and say "hey, I'm really old and from about a trillion years ago."

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 16 years ago

"If there was nothing at one point, how does gas just appear and start fluctuating in an empty space and burst into a universe? God is by far the best answer we've got"

Actually, the real question is this...why do people like yourself automatically think it must be magic that created something just because it is unknown? "God is the best answer" doesn't cut the mustard, as it is the same as making something up and deciding that this is what I will believe, no questions allowed! There is a reason that god is often referred to as "god of the gaps", for believers constantly feel the need to use the unknown as proof of his existence. When something is discovered and no longer considered an unknown, they simply mark it off the list and focus on the current unknowns as "proof". It's funny how god always exists right out there, just outside of reality. How convenient.

* * * *

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

reply

[–] helena_nouwens 16 years ago

DFJ, I think you make a lot of valid points having read the whole of the thread (phew!), and I have a few remarks I wanted to share.

DFJ, I think you are what they classify as agnostic, not exactly atheist (hope the Christians out there know the difference)-- I would classify myself as such, as there is no proof either way. I would lean more towards the atheist side, as the scientific side is more convincing, and Christians seem to always just go round in circles explaining their 'proof' or 'belief'.
I am utterly fascinated by religion and (civil) discussions thereof, but you have to agree on one thing, as DFJ said: there have always been Gods for as long as humankind exists, even way WAY before Christianity. Remember Zeus, Thor, Osiris-- to name but a few? They were all there to 'fill the gaps' of the unknown.

What is wrong with 'not knowing' exactly where we come from and how, why we are here, whether there is or isn't a purpose to our existence AND if you're a Christian what IS your purpose? To serve God? What kind of purpose is that?

And the other thing that always annoys me is the scare-mongering: what Christians' convictions come down to is: that even if you have lived a full life, caring for people (being an underpaid, overworked nurse/ being a prolific and loving foster-parent/ go out to disaster-zones to help rebuild a country/ etc.etc.) and having contributed to society in a most helpful way, but you are a moslim/ atheist/ whatever IF YOU DON'T REPENT YOUR SINS AND FIND JESUS/CONVERT YOU WILL END UP IN HELL!!
For God's sakes (sorry, old habit) Hitler was a renowned catholic!! Why do you think he went after Jews?
And what's that all about? Jews go to hell because they don't believe EXACTLY as you do? Most of their religion is EXACTLY the same as yours, except that they don't believe in the existence of Jezus/ the new testament???

Sorry, ranting now, didn't mean to... :)
I really have nothing against believers of any faith, but it all seems so futile! What if we all decided to renounce any religion? There would be nothing to fight over, but oil! Anybody here really think Bush 'found God' after all he did in the past? Or may it have been a well thought-out ploy to get into office...

Hmmmmmmmm.....

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 15 years ago

DFJ, I think you are what they classify as agnostic, not exactly atheist (hope the Christians out there know the difference)-- I would classify myself as such, as there is no proof either way >>> Thanks for your comments, helena, but I would like to say that I consider myself 100% atheist.

- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

reply

[–] Dali-Fan 15 years ago

Truly. It's like a child looking at a tree and saying, "how is it there?" And some adult says, "because Gawd did it." Religion is an excuse for not knowing an answer to something/anything.

"I would sum up my fear about the future in one word: boring." JG Ballard

reply

[–] Jordan_Haelend 16 years ago

"For instance, a person can make anything into "their god", be it someones else or themselves."

The difference is that yourself and other people are demonstrably real, unlike a god. Also, a god must have certain attributes-- in Christianity God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. No human has these qualities.

If you put yourself on a pedestal as your "god" you are egomaniacal. If you view someone else as being godlike you have a serious inferiority complex.

"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits

reply

[–] CalloftheWild619 16 years ago

The difference is that you're using a different definition of "god" than I am. There's a reason why I quoted "god." FYI, look up the various definition of "god" and you'll see that my meaning still works, as yours as well.

reply

[–] TheSolarSailor 15 years ago

The difference is that you're using a different definition of "god" than I am. There's a reason why I quoted "god." FYI, look up the various definition of "god" and you'll see that my meaning still works, as yours as well. >>> The difference is that you are bending over backwards to miss a very easy to understand point in your effort to make your version of god more than the next one. Sorry, but you've yet to convince anyone of anything other than the fact that you think your own belief in it makes it fact. It doesn't. In fact, by your own example ALL gods MUST be real because they have people who believe in them. You can claim to be using your unique definition of god all day long, but in the end a deity is a deity and your god falls under the same category as all the rest.

- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

reply

[–] CalloftheWild619 11 years ago

That is a straw man.

My belief is based on faith, not fact, as I said before, and since faith can not become fact, no gods are able to must be real by the example you've given.

reply

[–] karatekidnumber1 14 years ago

Technically, what you're saying is that anyone or anything can be an idol. An idol is an object or person that has been elevated to a god-like status.

reply

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]