MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (2006) Discussion > Series 12 was good until the end - conta...

Series 12 was good until the end - contains major spoilers


Most of series 12 I have enjoyed far more than the dull boring series 11. I found there was a lot of issues this series but it had more fun, scale and so on.

However the ending just hasn't sat right with me. I hate the idea of the doctor being more than just an average timelord and now we have her as someone who basically helped create the timelords by giving them their regeneration powers. And she's not even from gallifrey.

I know the show is about change and it needed to do something big and different but was the answer taking a dump on the shows history?

Maybe I'll change my mind - I've only just seen the episode. I just think it's a bad move.

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Damn, if you liked this season (which is probably the worst season to date, in close competition with season 11)... and you still say the end was bad in comparison... how awful must have it been...

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Series 11 just didn't do anything. This series did some interesting stuff I just dislike what it has lead to

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Real fan will not have watched any of the Jodie episodes and will only return once she is gone and they return to how it was... they will just ignore these years which ie probably what future writers will do as well... assuming they don't completely destroy the franchise before they walk away.

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Who will need a complete and total reboot by the time they're done. I'd wager they'll have to end up retconning the entirety of the NuWho era and just pick up where the original series left off.

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Chances are it'll be cancelled. It's quite expensive, and while Russell T Davies was able to make it work with a (relatively) reduced budget, that's not the case right now.

Audiences and merchandise sale are tanking. It's just a matter of time before they pull the plug.

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I'd call myself a true fan and I don't mind Jodie's doctor - series 11 I wasn't keen as she was just one tone, over the top quirkiness but we've seen her show a far bigger range of emotions this series and actually develop. She is far from my favourite doctor but there is a massive improvement.

To me the problem isn't the doctor - it's the writing. As I've seen in previous posts series 12 is far better than series 11 but it still had many flaws. Like series 11, I felt most of the episodes had lots of great ideas but never really had the time and probably budget to develop them.

But I enjoyed series 12 - it seemed in most places to be learning from the mistakes of series 11. But then the finale happened and left me with a bitter taste. It certainly is something that is going to divide everyone.

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My kids were die hard fans, pushing me to take them to Who conventions... but they refused to accept Jodie and haven't watched a single episode. I was never a great fan of it before Jodie, it was just something to watch as a family... But I did try to watch the Jodie version a couple of times to see if it was worth trying to convince my daughters to give it a chance. I didn't even try to convince them, she was pretty bad as the Doctor, but as you mention the writing overall was crap. Way too preachy, it was as if the typical liberal loons put their PC mode into overdrive or decided to out PC each other. The only way I could see them saving it is to pull back a previous Doctor and end this reign of crap with an older Doctor being saved from torture and the torture was living through this incarnation of the show.

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Smart kids, bringing back David Tennant or Matt Smith could save it, but I don't trust the BBC not to inject politics into the stories again, I'd like to of seen Peter Capaldi have a good run as the Doctor with decent scripts too, I lost interest during his time but recognise he was a good Dr Who.

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Nope. I disliked the finale but previous doctors should only come back for specials.

The show is about looking forward. Each era is slightly different. I feel bringing back a classic doctor wouldn't work because we've already seen their style and era. I'd rather have a new doctor so we can explore something different.

The only doctor I'd probably be okay returning is if they did a time war prequel kind of series with mcgann. It could work because we have only the TV movie and night of the doctor visual media wise so there's a lot of stuff they could do

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To me the problem isn't the doctor - it's the writing. As I've seen in previous posts series 12 is far better than series 11 but it still had many flaws.

The writing is not gonna get better. It's a woke series. It can't.

I'm not kidding. Writing/showrunning requires a fair amount of creative freedom. Imagine for a moment that you're a writer or a showrunner in female Doctor Who series. And you start making choices...

What happens with the pseudo-magic babbling? That has been a recurrent problem since Matt Smith: the doctor babbles some non-sense, he waves the sonic screwdriver and voilà! problem solved! They had the same problem during the 70s, and they solved it by banning the "magic" screwdriver. Could you do that now? If Whittaker can not waves a magic screwdriver and solve the problem babbling some non-sense, that means she less powerful that male Doctor Matt Smith. That's wrong in the woke world: female Doctor must be more powerful than the previous male ones. Outcome: you can't solve that problem.

Another example. Gender swap has a lot of potential when it comes to comedy. It's a classic trope in Anime, and they've created brilliant comedy out of it. Ranma 1/2 is the classic example, but it's far from being the only one. However, that comedy is considered often sexist in the woke world. That means you're making a major change, as a gender swap in the main character, and at the same time you're dismissing most of the possibilities if offers. Outcome: so much wasted potential.

You could continue on and on. There's no way the writing gets good.

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I've always said the doctor should lose the screwdriver for a bit. I get RTD's reason for bringing it back because getting stuck by a door could be boring if it kept happening but the sonic screwdriver had became too much a get out of jail free type thing. I also would love the Tardis to gain an issue and the doctor to not be able to fully control it for a time like in classic who. I miss the landing on alien planets without a clue of where they landed.

As for the sonic making the doctor look smart. By removing it you would have to have the doctor use actual witts to sort things out so it would work. When Jodie does leave I'd love to see a more mature female, a kind of smart scientist kind of person that thinks logically so maybe comes across cold at face value but does have a love for those close to her deep down. Writing this it's actually sounding like a female 3rd doctor

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It wouldn't make the Doctor look smarter. It would make the story (and the character) much more interesting, though.

However... the last iterations, and starting with Matt Smith, the Doctor solved problems using less and less effort. There's no way they're gonna have female Jodie Whittaker putting some effort in solving problems when male Smtih and Capaldi were so powerful. She must be at least as powerful as them.

That's a common problem with female and non-white characters. If you had a male, the female must be more powerful. And then if you had a white female, the black female must be even more powerful. It's a 'power inflation'. That's why Mary Sues have become so common. And it's one of the (many) reasons characters are becoming less and less interesting.

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But powerful can be interpreted in different ways.

Having the doctor use her sonic for everything is not power to me because she is relying on something else.

My favourite doctor is the 3rd doctor and he often had to use science and his brains. To me that's more clever than just waving a magic wand. And if anything it could help people relate and even inspire people e.g. young girls to take up science

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[deleted]

“Real fan will not have watched any of the Jodie episodes and will only return once she is gone and they return to how it was”

and then

"I was never a great fan of it before Jodie”

So as a non-fan we are to take you as an authority on what a real fan would or wouldn’t watch? Makes sense.

I’ve been a fan for 45 years and have loved this season from beginning to end.

I applaud you for using PC instead of woke as the basis of your argument against the show though. Old-school conservatism 👌

Chibnall is the first show-runner in a very long time to have the balls to give us some backstory on the Doctor, it’s a shame that many didn’t have the balls to go with it, and maybe even enjoy it. To me it’s their loss. While they were angry enough to spend hours spraying about it all over the net, I was having the time of my life.

Long live the timeless child ✊

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My point was the real die hard fan would be boycotting the Jodie version, just as a real fan of say Superman would boycott a new Superman movie it was made with a transgender midget playing Superman. The diversity casting of Jodie was enough to justify a die hard fan not watching it.

You have been a fan, but just how much of a fan have you been? Are you of the ones that shows up at the Who conventions, that goes to watch parties to see the specials with other fans? Or are you the casual viewer that just watches it when you can but doesn't feel like its the end of the world when you happen to miss one. I've been a casual fan of lots of shows over the years and probably watch the entirety of many of them, but I would have never considered myself a real fan of them because if I did miss an episode I didn't care. So it really depends on how you define a real fan.

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My point was the real die hard fan would be boycotting the Jodie version

It's not about die hard fans boycotting. It's about average fans losing interest. Audience is reaching whole-series minimums, and merchandise sales are plummeting.

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So, anyone that watches the Jodie version isn't a die hard fan and unless you call your car 'Betsy', wear a scarf all year round and offer everyone jelly babies, then you're not one either?

Now imagine a Dalek like voice saying, 'Boll-Ocks!'

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Well the Jodie version of a Dalek would never say Boll-Ocks, it might offend someone if they did.

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It makes me sad, thomas, that you equate being female to being a "transgender midget". It makes me sadder that someone with those opinions should be raising daughters.

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Nowhere did I say a woman was the equivalent of a transgender midget... but when a character in a show was always male then it is ridiculous to make the character female for the sake of diversity casting, just as much as it would be ridiculous to make a movie about Queen Elizabeth and cast Andrew Scott as the Queen. If you can't understand that then you've got some serious problems.

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Weak example. It has been established that time lords can regenerate as the opposite gender. Obviously, being a human and a real life historical character whose history we know, Queen Elizabeth cannot and has not changed gender so no, you couldn't cast a man (in normal circumstances). But you can cast a female as the Doctor because the show had already shown that that is possible. But for some reason you seem to view being female as diminishing the character, the same as you view Superman being a "transgender midget" as a diminishment of him.

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It has been established that time lords can regenerate as the opposite gender.

So first a man, now a woman. The Doctor is clearly transgender.

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The swap the queen for Shelock Holmes. You can't swap Holmes for a woman because it goes against the original character. Doctor Who was always a man until some liberal loons decided to go against the tradition of the character. If you can't understand that then I might as well be talking to a dog.

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To be honest I wasn't originally a fan of the idea simply because the doctor had always been male so I viewed him as a male charater but then I did start wondering what they could do by changing the sex.

The show had started to become stale and actually this could be a breath of fresh air. I feel series 11 we didn't get enough time with Jodie but 12 she really showed a much bigger range of emotions. The ending of the Mary shelly one was such a great performance and I really felt she was the doctor then and not just someone trying to play or pretended they where.

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Please refer to my previous answer. Sherlock Holmes is a human hence unable to change gender. The Doctor is a time Lord hence able to as previously established in the show.

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They are both fictional characters you dolt. Who is to say Holmes was a fucking martian... you're ignorance seems to know no bounds.

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Mature. Well done, dad. I'm pretty sure that Holmes was a human. If you are suggesting that he "might" be an alien I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to continue this argument. By the way, while we're on the subject of ignorance it's "your" not "you're"

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Yeah @silverstone I also like how Chibnall is delving into the Doctors past and bringing up things that haven't been touched on since the 4th Doctor 44 years ago, even the Matrix bit could go back to the 6th Doctor 34 years ago.

As in:

https://infogalactic.com/info/The_Trial_of_a_Time_Lord

The Trial of a Time Lord is a 14-part science fiction serial in the British science fiction television series Doctor Who. The serial, produced as the show's twenty-third season, aired in weekly episodes from 6 September to 6 December 1986.

The Doctor claims that the Matrix has been altered, and the Keeper of the Matrix (James Bree) is called. Seconds later, the Master (Anthony Ainley) appears on the Matrix’s screen, proving that it can be infiltrated. Sabalom Glitz and Mel are called as witnesses to the Doctor's defence, and they inform the Doctor of the Council's actions.

The secrets Glitz sought had been stolen from the Time Lords, and Earth was ravaged and moved to preserve them. The Doctor was used as a scapegoat to hide the incident, and the Valeyard—an amalgam of the Doctor's evil personalities from between his 12th and final regeneration —was offered the Doctor's remaining regenerations. To ensure a guilty verdict from a neutral jury, the Valeyard falsified evidence.

The Valeyard escapes to the Matrix, followed by the Doctor and Glitz. The Doctor's attempts to prevent the Valeyard from killing the High Council are stopped by the Master, who wants to dispose of the Doctor and seize power. The Doctor thwarts the Valeyard by causing the destruction of the Matrix archive.

The Inquisitor (Lynda Bellingham) then clears the Doctor of all charges and offers him the Time Lord presidency, which he declines, suggesting that she run instead. After he leaves, she asks the Keeper of the Matrix to make repairs; the Keeper then turns to the camera, revealing his face to be that of the Valeyard.


So 01: The Matrix was used to lie not only to the Timelord Council but the Doctor as well by The Master and Valeyard, 02: The Archive was wiped by the Doctor and 03: The repairs to the Matrix were done by the Valeyard. So this whole timeless child thing could be something that the Valeyard and Master put in there and is yet to play out, though the destruction of all at Gallifrey may mean not (though really don't think this is the last of the Master).



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I just didn't like the finale. But then haven't been sold that much on the whole series.

I just can't get into Chibnall's writing, I think. A lot of it is just dull. Coming into the two parter, I found myself not caring who The Timeless Child was. And the majority of the stuff with the companions alone against the Cybermen was just boring. I like Bradley Walsh, but I think the chemistry isn't quite there between the companions, so I don't have any real interest in them. Consequently, I didn't feel any real threat in their battle with the Cybermen. And that bit where Graham told Yaz what a fine young woman she was didn't feel like the emotional scene I'm assuming it was supposed to be. It just felt like he was coming on to her.

Also, I hated the retconning stuff. The Doctor is not a Galifreyan, is not really even a Time Lord. Just some kid they found that had a mysterious ability to regenerate, who had her DNA stole by some other people who later went on to become Time Lords. So, can The Doctor regenerate an infinite number of times now? What was the point in The Time Lords giving Matt Smith extra regenerations if he was going to regenerate anyway? To just hide what they'd done? They only seemed to give it to him because Clara begged. What happened if that hadn't happened? Would Matt Smith have just regenerated anyway? Did The Time Lords just wait for one of The Doctor's Companions to come and ask for him to have extra lives? If they're covering their tracks, that seems risky.

Having The Doctor as some rebellious member of some highly powerful alien race was interesting. Having The Time Lords just be some random people who stole some other people's powers makes them seem lame somehow. It elevates The Doctor above them, rather than The Doctor being on the run from them and trying to do right. The Doctor is no longer a maverick, instead she's pretty much a god.

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Part 2, as there's a limit to how much you can type on one page, apparently.

I did like Sacha Dhawan's performance as The Master, and he's the best thing in it. The storyline of him turning Cybers into being that could regenerate was decent and should've been the whole episode, rather than the other dull rubbish that was going on.

When Jodie confronted him at the end though, I'm still not convinced that Jodie has enough gravitas for that sort of thing. A lot of the previous Doctors could make you fear them when they were angry. Whittaker does the fun eccentric side of The Doctor well, but doesn't do this sort of thing well. Even the bit when she's telling her companions to leave felt whiny rather than anything else. I didn't feel like she was making a sacrifice, it felt more like she was throwing a tantrum. Having that old guy run in and save her didn't help make her look badass any either.

Also, when Captain Jack was in earlier in the series, he promised he'd return if The Doctor ever needed him. I thought that was a hint he was coming back for the finale. He didn't. What a waste of him being there, he didn't even have a scene with the New Doctor. Nice fan-service, but it felt like he just stepped into say hello without having any real point. He warned them about the Cyberman, but any character could've done that. Jack needs to have a scene with The Doctor, otherwise his presence is a waste.

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Yeah that's my problem. I prefer the doctor as a rebel and someone who got bored and ran away. Now she's too important to the timelords because you could argue she is the first timelord, the one who gave them their powers. I didn't mind the rest of the episode just this bit.

I've mentioned it a few places but I have an issue with the fact that they removed some stuff from the matrix but the big secret of the timeless child they wanted no one to ever find out was left in there. I do feel this will be possibly used by a future show runner as a way to retcon it e.g. it was the master lying and manipulating the matrix.

Time of the doctor could be the timelords not knowing who the doctor really was or if they did trying to hide it. However it looked like he was supposed to die in name of the doctor until he was given the regernations and that timeline got removed. Also Clara never saw any of the secret doctors when she jumped into the doctors timeline

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Maybe the way around that is Clara only saw "Doctors" as it were, but if this is the case, why did she see The War Doctor? He was not considered one who lived up to the promise of The Doctor's name?

That's why I don't like retcons on this scale. It makes a lot of stuff that happened in previous episodes nonsensical.

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Yeah and I worry they have put themselves in an awkward place. People are saying it adds more mystery but what is the point in introducing this new idea if they don't explore it. People will want to know where she came from, why she was abandoned etc. But exploring that will in turn make it less mysterious. I preferred not truly knowing everything about the doctors childhood because of this

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I prefer the idea that Time Lords can just naturally regenerate as part of their biological make-up. Rather than there was one person in the universe that could do it randomly and the Time Lords stole their DNA. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Who is this person that could do something that literally no other creature in creation can?

I guess the counter argument is, that if it is part of Time Lord's biology to naturally regenerate, they wouldn't be able to control it. Something that both the old and new series of Doctor Who implied could be done to a certain extent.

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I think other media tried to make it suggested it was rassilon who gave them their abilities but that it was something he made and then put into the timelords.

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SHe came out saying she wanted to be a porn star and do private parties

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I see where you are coming from peter and my initial thought after watching the finale was ‘man this is going to piss a lot of people off’. That worries me given the hard year the show has had with the fierce backlash and declining ratings.

It also disappoints me because it’s the bravest addition to the Doctor Who story since the idea of regeneration was tested on audiences after Hartnell’s departure. That includes female regeneration which I always saw as an inevitability rather than an unexpected reveal that opens the show up to countless exciting possibilities, as this does.

You refer to this development as dumping on the show’s history but I think it’s actually very true to the core spirit of the Doctor Who ethos, which for me is pushing boundaries with outlandish and fantastical storylines. I find myself wondering why so many people want Doctor Who to settle for the status quo all of a sudden.

Some seem more concerned that their numbering system for the Doctors has been assaulted. I remember fans so upset over the addition of the War Doctor in the 50th special... oh my god... my response was the same as it is now. Who said that the old man we were introduced to in 1963 was the first incarnation of the Doctor? If we accept regeneration as a plot device then it makes no sense that a centuries old alien would suddenly start regenerating every three to four years after living in one body for everything that came before. The thing about fantasy is that sometimes you have to remind yourself that it’s just that and go with it.

I just wish I could work out why Ruth’s TARDIS looked like a police box 🤔

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I'm not very keen on the idea of previous doctors but I can go with it. It certainly opens up more possibilities but then will the show do anything with that. They probably would be wise to keep some mystery but it would seem pointless to tell us that the doctor has had multiple previous unknown lives if they never do anything with it. I presume we will definitely see more of the Ruth doctor but I wonder about others.

My main issue with the reveal is it puts too much power into the doctor. Yes there has often been hints that the doctor is far more than just a timelord but I prefer them as just hints as I prefer the idea of the doctor just being a timelord who was a bit of a rebel and got bored so stole a Tardis and went to explore. This makes the doctor too important to the timelords for me. At least they haven't done the human angle as that I find was even worse

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Timelord? You mean that concept that didn’t exist for the first decade of the show? How dare they mess with that!

I’m only joking pete, I do understand and respect where you’re coming from, but I maintain that it’s bold scriptwriting choices like this that have made Doctor Who what it is and I applaud Chibnall’s imagination and bravery.

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Oh I do get the idea. But a lot of the stuff introduced later on didn't change too much while as I feel this changed a lot. I like the idea of the timelord society being based on a lie just not that it is the doctor at the heart of it.

Interestingly I have the power of the daleks animation bluray but only watched the first episode as I forgot I had it ha. I do remember the doctor opened a bit in the Tardis which seemed to show bits from possibly previous doctors. It was also implied it was the Tardis that caused the regernation. The YouTube channel the Terry nation army made an interesting video the other day about the fact that probably until the war games its never fully established that the doctor is alien and they often write him as a human time traveller from the future

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Well they did touch on unknown previous Doctors back in 1976 and just left it vague so who knows:

Basically in The Brain of Morbius episode during a mental battle between the 4th Doctor and the ancient Time Lord criminal Morbius, we saw images of the Doctor’s lives, these images included the four faces we knew. But we also saw images of others as well. It was heavily implied by Morbius that these were incarnations of the Doctor all taking place before William Hartnell and that the Doctor didn't remember them all.


This says they showed 8 who were before Hartnell in that episode:

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Doctor_(The_Brain_of_Morbius)

During the mindbending battle, after Morbius said, "Back! Back to your beginning!" and the eight faces began to flash on the screen, the Fourth Doctor thought to himself, "You can't... not that far... I, I won't let you... Not even I..." The mechanism broke down before any more faces could be shown.

Plus:

The Fifth Doctor only had hazy memories of his life from before what he remembered to be his second regeneration; further back, great chunks were missing. The Sixth Doctor also mentioned that his memory was vague prior to his regeneration into the Third Doctor.


So yeah.

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Oh I get that. In the opening of power of the daleks the newly regenerated second doctor puts some stuff from the 1st doctor away and there are other objects hinting at previous doctors. I should also note that the Tardis is said to be what causes the regernation.

I'd probably prefer they hadn't added any more doctors myself. I feel the mystery worked better when we didn't know. The morbius doctors then was interesting because it hinted at the idea of more. I've always felt it best to avoid the early days of the doctor because the more we learn the less mysterious the doctor becomes.

However that isn't my issue with the reveal. Extra doctors could work for me but as I've mentioned a few times what doesn't is having the doctor play a key role in founding the timelords.

To me what would have worked better was having ruth be between 2 and 3 working for the timelords but then going on the run because she found out about the timeless child a child who was found with the regernation powers and experimented on.

You could even have it turn out to be the master which would explain how he has survived some seemingly certain deaths and his madness. It would also explain why he destroyed gallifrey because he was special but never got treated right

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Yeah fair enough, I was a bit iffy about the War Doctor and kind of still am, however that's more because my expectations were at the first reveal he'd be a Morbius or the Valeyard, so brought the let down on myself really.

That post though was more about that they did the reveal in '76 and didn't hark on about it too much after, so with a little luck they'll do the same now. Though yeah I think Ruth will return, as whatever the Doctor got imprisoned for at the end is probably Ruth's doing, as in that earlier episode the Judoon where chasing after Ruth.

Also yeah The Master would be good and if they have any sense they'll do that eventually, as I said above a couple of days ago the Matrix was used to lie to the Timelord Council and the 6th Doctor by The Master and Valeyard back in 1986 (so no reason it can't happen again).

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Yeah it wouldn't surprise me considering a key part of the matrix was removed yet the truth about the timeless child wasn't. It's either just oversight or there's more to it.

Problem is I feel that they will need to explore the doctors past and find out where she really comes from but then more they look into it the less mysterious it becomes. That's why I preferred not knowing as that meant there was mystery

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Yeah I think that's why I'm sitting as a glass ¾ full type at the minute, something did seem missing with it all and perhaps this one-off extended special for Christmas and New Year will delve deeper. I'm trying to keep my thoughts and expectations low though, as like I said above I've disappointed myself before. It's just that also when the Doctor is escaping the Matrix and we see all those things in the Doctors mind, one of them is that scene from the The Brain of Morbius episode where they run through 8 previous Doctors. Only noticed on a rewatch today, so hence the ¾ full rather than a ½ one, however I'm with silverstone on it as well in as much as I feel (and I quote) "Chibnall is quite clearly trying to improve the show, not destroy it as so many people believe."

It is almost as though he is going back to bringing some of the old story in and that reboot to the old that some have mentioned is already underway, though again I.must.temper.expectations.

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Interestingly a lot of the stuff that he's done seems to be rehashes of other stuff. I suppose it's hard to make new things. Series 12 did feel very nostalgic just the ending i wasn't keen on

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We'll see as time goes on, it may just be that it has come down from the BBC to link it more to the older series and that is what Chibnall is doing. It may have to do with China (Shanghai Media Group Pictures), having bought up to Series 15 with the option for more. Plus HBO Max have done much the same (they get it exclusively after it airs on BBC America), now it is all hitting streaming it may be something they think is needed (when you can binge).

As of Feb this year Doctor Who along with other BBC Shows are also going to streamed on China's Youku:

https://www.abacusnews.com/culture/chinas-youtube-adds-bbc-shows-including-sherlock-and-doctor-who/article/3050663

Published on 14 Feb, 2020

Chinese video streaming site Youku signed a deal for more than 80 hours of British content on Tuesday, seeking to become the “number one platform for British drama” amid strong demand for foreign content.

The deal with BBC Studios extends Youku’s licensing of all four seasons of Sherlock and the full catalog of Doctor Who, including the latest season which is currently airing. It also includes new content for its library that will be available on the platform this month, including Good Omens, Sanditon and Luther, as well as high-definition versions of classic 80s comedies Yes Minister and Yes, Prime Minister.

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