Disappointing


I though that this film was extremely disappointing. It never really got into the business-aspect, or go in depth into what the military-industrial complex is, or any economic principals. It quickly degenerated into an anti-Iraq War film.

The only thing it did remind me of was a funny video about sensationalist media that I saw a while back: http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2681538

All in all, thoroughly disappointing. Someone needs to make a movie about this War that isn't all whiny and emotionally driven.

reply

This movie is what you call PROPAGANDA. Simple. It's sickening that people are actually believing this lie. What ever happened to discernment?

reply

What lie? I haven't seen the movie as it hasn't been released here so thats a genuine question......

reply

although im from Canada, i dont think this issue is completely isolated to just the USA. We too deal with these types of issues every day in our parliament. But to go ahead and just call the movie propaganda and say that everything in this film is a lie is quite extreme.
One thing you might not understand about the USA (in comparison to Canada and other "freer" countries) is that your media is so heavily censored and reviewed by the government, that unless there was factual context in this movie, the FCC would not allow this movie to be released.
Just to let you (the average american Joe) understand is that you guys, in fact, know less about your own country and its policies than a Canadian, for example. This film was done by the british and Canadians to help show Americans how you guys need to at least start thinking about ur governemt, and what they do.

So I say, no, this film is not a lie or propaganda. rather, another view on how your country tends to run itself.

reply

[deleted]

its quite interesting that you say that the world does not take Canada seriously. But unfortunately, because you are AMERICAN you have no idea what the world is thinking.
its a hard and known fact to everyone else on earth (except americans) that citizens of the USA are so far attached from the world, that you people live in near isolation.
if youve every ventured outside of the secure american culture you may find that not many people enjoy the company of the bullying US. on the other hand, welcome the Canadian, British, German, Swedish.... (you know, nicer countries).

As for our military: Canada has 32 million people - 10% of the USA. and fittingly our military is 10% of what the USA is... so its not low rated, just proportional... besides our Department of National Defense does not effectively seek out the lower economical class citizens to persuade to join the forces. our military men MUST attend university and obtain a degree in some field of study (whether it be military related or not). so to call us a bunch of paper pushers with no manpower is a long stretch... our military is strong, smart, and extremely well trained (why is that Canada seems to beat the USA and many other countries in army competitions???)

Anyways, gaining the respect of Americans is not something we care to do, there are more important things to look after.

reply

TnMovieBuff, here is one American who agrees with you...

reply

[deleted]

I have recently traveled to China... was in big cities and small communities and never once did i feel unwelcome by the Chinese... The Europeans I have spoken to have told me they don't have a problem with Americans... they have a problem with our government... fair enough...

As far as the Canadian Forces goes, you need to get your facts straight, there is little difference between the requirements for enlistment in the Canadian Forces and the requirements for enlistment in the US Military... to enlist in either you do not need a college degree!

This comes from a CF recruiting website http://www.army.com/Canada/index.html

"The requirements to enlist in the CF are:

Be a Canadian citizen (to join the Regular Force) - to enlist in the Reserve Force you must be a Canadian citizen or a Landed Immigrant;

Be at least 17 years old for the Regular Force - or 16 to be a candidate for the Reserve Force;

You must have passed Grade 10 or, if you live in Quebec, Secondary III;

You must be cleared or legal/judicial obligations for a period of at least 6 months;

You must pass an aptitude and physical fitness tests; and satisfy the medical requirements."


You might be thinking about commissioned officers who in both countries have to have a college degree and that goes for just about every professional military around the globe.

You are right about your military being proportional to that of the size of your population... Plus why would Canada need a large military? As far as the US Military seeking out people of lower income, that is a myth... the US Military is a decent cross section of America, being almost proportional to the class diffrences in America... the majority of the American military is middle class with less of the lower income people joining and less of the higher income people joining. (The reason I say its a decent cross section is that Women are not equally represented in the military as compared to the population and I am sure that is the case for most armies around the world.) I can not speak for the CF because I have not done enough research to see their entire demography.

CF guys do win a lot of competions, the Royal Military College (Canada's West Point for those of you that don't know) kicked the crap out of teams from the US and Britain at the Sandhurst Competition held at West Point... but I can remember watching a documentary on RIMPAC which is a naval excersise held out in the Pacific every few years between the navies of America, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, and Chile... and well Canada sent the HMCS Regina to the excersise and she was the first ship sunk in the excersise, a Chilean Submarine knocked her out early in the scenario... but that same Chilean sub also put an American Carrier out of action... so to imply that the CF is some super human fighting force is insane... and anyone that believes the US military is invincible is equally insane...

reply

You're smoking CRACK if you think the Armed Forces are a decent cross section of the population!!! They're OVERWHELMINGLY from the lower classes and the lower-middle classes! It's been that way for quite some time, and continues to get MORE classist!

And I too have traveled a lot, and while most people OUTSIDE America are savvy enough to divorce their opinion of what our government policy is from the behavior of an INDIVIDUAL they're talking to, that does NOT mean they don't have animosity towards the US! It simply means if you act nice and polite, they'll return the favor! Ask the public opinion about the US in places like central Vietnam, which saw the highest concentration of fighting, or in Okinawa, which has continual incidents from our standing military base which has been enforced there, or even from a lot of Australians, our allies who simply think we're getting a bit big in the britches and pushing our weight around the world too much.

Learn the facts, do more traveling, and get a clue.

reply

This American has been to Canada, Mexico, England, France, and the Bahamas. Most of my friends have been overseas as well. So cut it with the sterotype about the "insolated Americans". It's about as true as the one about Canadians eating mainly donuts and beer.

Oh, and by the way, how come so much American material plays on English, French, and Canadian TV? If it's all meaninless crap, why do you guys buy it? I've seen some variant of CNN EVERYWHERE I've gone. And guess who owns Fox? (hint - NOT AN AMERICAN).

Please. I like Canada - and my first serious girlfriend was a Canadian citizen. I just loved her family. Canada and the US are friends, and it is a mutually beneficial relationship. Why try to sour it?

reply

On September 4, 1985, Murdoch became a naturalized citizen of the US of A, to satisfy the legal requirement that only US citizens could own American television stations.

Why so much american crap, soiling european screens ? Where I live (Belgium) it's easy , everyone speaks english so subtitles are enough to help those that need them and are relatively cheap. I must question your remark with regard to french and german tv tough ... only a small percentage of what you see there is american, it wouldn't go to well with their chauvinism :D

Only two things are infinite:
The universe
American stupidity
And I'm not sure about the former.

reply

"Because you are AMERICAN"

That's a very telling attitude, and I don't mean that in a positive way. There's more than three hundred million of us, how can you even remotely know who we are? Have you met all three hundred million of us? That statement is prejudice taken to an extreme level. So because I'm one of 300 mil+ plus I can't possibly know what the world is thinking? But in fairness you are far from the only person who holds similar sentiments about us: that all it takes to be ignorant to be American.

"You're from the 60s! Peace love dope! Back, back to the 60s! No place for you in the future!"

reply


"When the New York Police Department alone is basically larger than the COMBINED Canadian military, you know something is seriously wrong."

You are right! There is something wrong ... with NEW YORK!

And if you think a contry should be taken seriously in proportion to it's military - as in more military, more seriously taken - you have just defined yourself as a bully. And bullies are what we need less of in OUR world.

reply

"When the New York Police Department alone is basically larger than the COMBINED Canadian military, you know something is seriously wrong."

You are right! There is something wrong ... with NEW YORK!


:D Best post in this thread. Why is there so much nation bashing on these forums?

reply

Thank god the last thing Canada cares about is military spending or enlarging its military.
I think ANY normal country would want it's military spending to be at the absolute necessary minimum. Why divert precious resources to the purchasing of expensive military hardware and the training of vast amounts of personel, while being able to use those funds to improve the countrie's education and god forbid, provide a nationwide healthcare system to all it's citizens. Better to spend a nations income on improving the life of its citizens than wasting it on weapons.


Hopefully the new Conervative leadership in Canada won't screw things up, destroying the achievements in Social Democracy (and continue to divert more resources to improve it) for a more aggresive Capitalistic and "Patriotic" stance towards world affairs, which would require a large boost in military spending.

Canada's enemy list is as long as New Zealand's. It does not require a large standing army to cope with that threat. If it's sole land neighbour, the U.S, decides one day to wage war against the "terrorist harboring" nation "up north" the world has probably gone to hell already, or that the U.S can't stand the notion of Canada surviving after they do :-)

The day Canada will be attacked by terrorists (because of Canadian actions) will be the day they'll run out of targets in the U.S.

However, The U.S is not the only country so very influenced by it's military industrial complex. All 5 permanent members of the security council are (U.S, U.K, France, Russia, China), not to say Israel, Turkey, South Korea, Taiwan and many more.
The sad truth is that in most nations, the military has a central role in shaping it's nations policy. Some more than others. Canada is a good exception.

Canada's military should only consist of a few battalions of highly trained personel equiped with state of the art military systems. These forces should only be deployed against REAL threats against Canada or the Free and democratic Western way of life. Mostly, these forces should be deployed for peacekeeping or humanitarian purposes.

Let me end by saying that I have no problem with a U.S military keen on policing the world, as long as it's deployment goals are just and lead to the establishment of stability and peace. Getting rid of Saddam and freeing Iraq from his tyranny was a good thing. The way it was executed was terrible. But the U.S has to stay in Iraq until it manages to stabalize it. Running away from there will be the worst thing to do. But if the U.S truely believes in bringing freedom and democracy to nations by policing the world, it still has a LONG list of nations to intervine in or even topple their oppresive regimes (including some of it's closest allies in the war on terror), although I recognise the fact that some regime leaderships, oppresive as they may be against their people , are better to be kept in power than to hand over power to other representatives who claim to have the support of their people, yet do not believe in Liberalism and a free society (Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and others are good examples).
Selectively choosing will always bring criticism and will point towards a policy of self interests not necessarily connected to the spreading of freedom. In reality, the U.S like any other nation on this planet , thinks first and foremost about its own interests. If they coincide with other nations interests...great. If, not....tough.

By the way, according to this documentry, Iran is next after Iraq. That will happen in 1-3 years , probably before Bush leaves office and is replaced by Condi Rice(The U.S military first needs to restock on ammunition and ask for more loans to cover the costs of fuel for the campaign. At 100 dollars a barrel for oil, the U.S could probably sell off Alaska to Canada and Hawai to Japan to cover the costs)
Prepare yourselves

reply

Any right-thinking person would welcome the fact that Canada chooses not to arm itself. If everyone thought the same way as Canada, there would be no war. They are to be admired, not ridiculed.

The USA's reliance on huge military power is not a sign of strength, but weakness. The only thing 'seriously wrong' with the fact that the NYC Police Dept. dwarfs the Canadian military, is the size of the NYC Police Dept. The expansion and militarisation of American police forces is indicative of the deterioration of what used to be a great country. A country that now, only cares about oppressing the already disadvantaged at home and abroad, so it can redistribute wealth from the poor to the rich in an even more outrageously skewed fashion. A coutry that requires ever-growing police and detention facilities to deal with the repurcussions of these blatant injustices.

As for this film being propaganda, that's wishful thinking on the part of the right wing delusionists. This film represents an important, historical document which people will hold up in the future as explicit evidence of the reasons why America lost its way, and how it sowed the seeds of its own destruction. Reagan, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their swivel-eyed cronies will be viewed in the way the enlightened see them today: as some of the biggest war criminals ever to have lived.

"At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
Abraham Lincoln

reply

<<Any right-thinking person would welcome the fact that Canada chooses not to arm itself. If everyone thought the same way as Canada, there would be no war. They are to be admired, not ridiculed.>>

That didn't work in 1939

reply

Wow,

Another uneducated US citizen that needs to sharpen his intellect. Its told in this movie that the US spends three quarters, that's THREE QUARTERS!!!!!! of a TRILLION dollars on its defense program. More money from the annual budget goes into the defense program per year than ALL the other budgets combined. What the hell is this saying.

I have a an American friend, a very close one at that, who told me about his education in America and how he thought it was dispicable. I got the impression that it really doesn't matter how intelligent you are, just get the right anwer and move along.

"Ahhh, 50% final mark. Hey you're doing great!!!" And that's in a post secondary academic environment.

Well, he said when he came here to Canada, and tested for his program in one of the Univeristys here, one of the minor reputable ones, it was a whole different ballgame. He told himself that, "Hey, I actually have to study for this now!" Testing here, you have to reach a top percentage, that's above 50% to pass. 60 and 70 is the going standard to pass an exam or even a simple test. Some tests you even have to get 80% to get ahead.

Perhaps more money should go into their education system instead of defense and then maybe more intelligent and practical solutions can be developed and exercised for their troubles than pulling out a gun and blowing away the next ciivlian (collateral damage) but still getting the "enemy" that was standing beside them, maybe.

reply

Im From the uk, a country with a sizeable army (nothing to be proud of) which was sent to iraq along with the american army, despite a demonstration of over 2 million britons, the largest demonstration in the uk, im ahamed to say that my country has become another one of americas puppy dogs. i dont understand why you critisise canada for being a peacfull nation, without a sizeable armed forces, the us government believes it can do as it pleases, conning the american people, you are so heavily brainwashed by your media, that you allowed them to determine who became the president in the last election.
i believe it will take more than 50 years to repair what has been done by your government in just four years in the name of freedom.

You talk about canadas "disaterous" millitary direction, comming from a country that has lost every war it fought, and there have been many, since the second world war. Support for the united states government, around the world is at an all time low, the american public, can no longer freely travel the world, without fear of reprisals, is that what you believe to be the way forward?

The War on terror, isnt that a bit ironic, isnt war terror?
one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

i still havent heard a valid argument against this film, you have to stoop so low, as to personal insults. please i beg you, open your mind

Question autority, question everything.

reply

So, only nations with might armies should be reckoned with ?
Short and simple, WRONG, and you should know why so here we go;

We live in a global world, without import/export the USA would die, so to prove this; the German econmony for example is an extremely big commercial partner to a lot of countries around the world. Yet they have NO regular army.

reply

[deleted]

Come To My Country and Break some of our laws and see how fast your dumb ass can get thrown in Prison.

I can guarantee you, unless you are a member of one of the overrated First nations(those are American Indians, for your reference) you have a very good chance of going to prison for a very long time.

That was not the case up until a short time ago...
Way back when, it was the case if you happened to be a member of a First Nation...

Here's some advice;
Stay south of the 49th parallel...

reply

What? The FCC has no control whatsoever over theatrical movies or DVD releases, and no government agency "fact-checks" any sort of media. Not only would doing so run completely contrary to the idea of a free society, you wouldn't see conspiracy nuts like Alex Jones peddling their wares.

This is without even getting into your silly "freer countries" statement. Come talk to me when racist jokes aren't considered a crime in Canada, the UK, or any of your "freer countries" that can't wrap their heads around the extent and consequences of free speech (just one of many, many examples). If nothing else, Canadians and Europeans sure do love to play the "our infringements on the liberties of our citizens are better than yours" game nowadays.

Of course, I'm a fool to even try to speak intelligently on an IMDB board to begin with, so take it or leave it.

reply

"This is without even getting into your silly "freer countries" statement. Come talk to me when racist jokes aren't considered a crime in Canada, the UK, or any of your "freer countries" that can't wrap their heads around the extent and consequences of free speech (just one of many, many examples)."

So a government being against racist hate speech is bad but a government being against free-speech that doesn't support their policies (like, oh, I don't know - stopping scientists from speaking out on global warming) is a-ok?

reply

A government can be against "hate speech" all it likes, but jailing people for it is not "free speech".

And do provide a credible example of "scientists speaking out on global warming" that have been jailed or otherwise by the American government. Your favorite rense link doesn't count XD

reply

Read the news. Nasa scientists spoke about how the government didn't allow them to talk about global warming. Now I ask you to provide an example of people in Canada being jailed for making racial jokes. Russell Peters and Glen Foster should be serving life by now.

reply

im English and just as worried about my government as yours, i have more to say on the US as they are far more powerful globally and are causing the most damage.

reply

[deleted]

The government in the USA does not censor movies and news broadcasts today. Go ahead and think what you want, but it's just a load of crap. I just love it when people go on and on about how liberty in America is being violated to this terrible degree - and yet they are out there saying some of the most terrible things about our government that you could image, and NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM. In fact, they generally get a whole lot of air time on the nightly news. Hell, listen to the garbage spewed by Cindy Sheehan, to the delight of the entire US media (both left and right wing leaning parts...) - I've heard more of her words on the air than I have the words of most politicians in America over the last year or so.

If you folks from Canada really think that you are "freer" than people here in the USA, then I fear that it is your media who is twisting things.

reply

You Have Been Brainwashed, how can you make your statement without any backup facts, im ready, and willing to listen to your arguments if you have any, or are you just blindly patriotic? open your eyes and ears.

reply

[deleted]

What Lie? You haven't followed up. Oh, I get it, You're a TROLL.

Move Along folks, nothing more to see here. Just an ugly little troll.

reply



Well this raises the question of whether
a war, such as the one in Iraq, can
be so ill-conceived and ill-managed that
just a film showing facts or interviews
makes people think it's "one-sided."
Can you give an example of distortions made in the film?

reply

Yes. American weapons hit there targets geographicly more often than not.. The film says this is untrue.. when in fact distort this saying they missed. They in fact did not they hit where they where supposed to more than the film portrays.. the film gets away with this by saying that the weapons hit only innocent people. True but the Iraqis know what targets the Americans would hit. They use these buildings as air raid shelters for people knowing full well that they may be hit. They do this in order gain support for Sadam. It happend in the first Gulf War in one very tragic incident.

There are more, none the less the movie is still an interesting watch even if you don't agree with its premis..

reply

[deleted]

"American weapons hit there targets geographicly more often than not."

Bad arguement. 51% is also "more often than not", but of course this is unnacceptable. Precision guided munitions do not "miss" their targets, they are simply pointed at the wrong objects (i.e. bad intelligence/human error).


"True but the Iraqis know what targets the Americans would hit. They use these buildings as air raid shelters for people knowing full well that they may be hit."

Does this give us the right to bomb them anyway? They are innocent people like you and I (and those poor souls in the twin towers on 9/11).


What is happening to our country, guys? How can people (and a LOT of them) support this kind of senseless killing?

reply

Spoken from one who has never been on the ground watching an FO grab his head to keep it from shaking in disbelief, it sounds like to me. I get soooooo tired of hearing nuevo-"military experts" demonstrating their total ignorance with such supreme confidence.

reply

what's an FO.

reply

<<<<<<<<<It quickly degenerated into an anti-Iraq War film.>>>>>>>>>>

It's never a bad thing for people to be reminded of the true price of war. Having seen this film and many others about the war, all of whom were anti-war, I am still of the conviction that taking out Saddam was a good thing though I believe the initial bombardment which cost so many civilian lives was largely uncalled for.

reply

I agree that this movie could have spoken more about the supposed theme of the movie, the military industrial complex, and less on the Bush administration and the Iraq war.

Bush and Iraq are both relevant to the subject matter, but don't warrant the ammount of attention this film gave to them when there was plenty of other subject matter/info that could have made the film better.


Not bad, but had higher hopes for something other than another Fahrenheit 9-11.

reply

It never really got into the business-aspect, or go in depth into what the military-industrial complex is, or any economic principals. It quickly degenerated into an anti-Iraq War film.

A summation of the military-industrial complex may be articulated as the relationship between corporate interests in the selling of military supplies and the obtaining of contracts which entitle a body to develop and profit off of the resources to be found on annexed land (in the case of Iraq, that resource is oil), the interests of politicians who are beholden to the aforementioned corporate interests because of the campaign contributions they receive from corporations, and the tendency of a country to involve itself in military conflicts as affected by the previously enumerated corporate and political interests, considering their both being biased toward belligerency for obvious reasons.

reply

Hey Swimmer I hate to say it, but as one who reads the press everyday in German and French I can state without a doubt people overseas may know more about America than Americans. Even the conservative German press will report issues about America that the English speaking press will not cover. A good example is recently the German press covered Americans and how over weight they are as a group and the ramifications it has on American health care costs. That is not a subject Americans want to discuss except rarely. Yet when I recently returned from abroad that was my first observation. Americans are over weight, and there is no discussion. Well, gotta go get my fast food burger, bye.

reply

[deleted]

Europe is a society of poets and thinkers. I have to tell you one thing: we know! And we are watching closley what is going on with your country; And I can tell you one more thing: It is frightening!

reply

[deleted]

Europe is a society of empires in decline with an unearned sense of superiority, convinced that they are incapable of ignorance (though they are willing to display it on the internet every chance they get)

reply

Ironic

reply

Excuse me, but I LIVE in America. And I know for a fact, obesity in the United States is a topic of discussion. What the hell do Germans living in Germany know about what goes on behind closed doors in America? That's right, no offense, you Germans don't know sh t...

Do you know that schools in America are providing salad bars in school cafetrias? They are also providing healthier snacks, juice, sports drinks and water in the vending machines? All the fast food places are providing healthier alternatives, instead the fatty foods...I will agree on one thing, SOME Americans are over weight, but there are obese people everywhere, why is it that other countries always point the finger at the United States? Seriously, why are you singling out obese people in America. Not all Americans are overweight. Nice stereotype, though. Maybe I should stereotype all Germans and say they are all Nazi loving killers?


Swimmer, it would seem you're of the mindset that simply because you're american, you inherently know more about the workings and policies of your country that someone who isn't. Not only in this post, but in your other ones, you seem to have some sort of innate knowledge regarding the US because you're a citizen. While the doors of your meth lab may be closed, therefore limiting any outsider's view, the "closed doors" of america are hardly that... what could an american possibly know about america regarding policies that a german couldn't?

Well, I am american. I have traveled extensively... through the americas, euope, and africa. It comes as no surprise to me that many foreigners are much more aware of this country's policies and stances than the majority of its own population. Your rehetoric is as faulty as claiming a bank teller would know more about an economic forecaster simply because the former WORKS in a bank everyday.

Sadly, your predisposition to self proclaimed omnipotence is part of the problem regarding our tarnished image overseas.

I do believe this is the point where you reply with something dull-witted and renounce my "un-americanism".

reply

"Why we fight" did a great job of presenting post-WWII American war rationale & conflicts in an insightful and balanced way. There are multiple reasons US administrations advocate war: business & industry advancement, foreign policy/balance of power, generals wanting budget & career advancement, national/personal pride, and "Homeland Security" (from communism, Al Queda, etc.).

Assume for the moment that Homeland Security is the main explanation for why W went to war. The disconnect (and following "blowback") results from people initially (being duped into) thinking HS overwhelmingly represents why he went to war. The reality is closer to the example: HS is %24 of the reason we went to war and all other reasons (above) are %19 for a total of 100%. HS is a plurality ("main reason"), however the thread of the MI complex runs so deeply throughout the other reasons that it vastly ovvershadows HS. When people finally see this they get pissed and "blowback" ensues. The movie tracks this pattern very well.

Gore Vidal (a thoroughly annoying man) does have a great quote: "The United States of Amnesia". These patterns occur over and over again and for whatever reason we are unable to recognize what's going on at the time. That said, I don't think any other culture who takes a leadership role in world affairs is any better than us at seeing it quickly either.

reply

<i>"Yet when I recently returned from abroad that was my first observation. Americans are over weight, and there is no discussion."</i>

Are you kidding me? No discussion? At my college im in a REQUIRED wellness class. Every student has to take it, and it obesity is one of the primary topics.

/I live in the midwestern U.S.

reply

this is to a previous statement by an ignorant, gun-loving american.

he was remarking that canada has forgotten its worldly duties because it has stopped being a military country.

ummm... THANK GOD!!! screw the thought that you have to be a military country to be viewed as influential. how many americans wear canadian flags when going through europe and asia to avoid being persecuted against? what does that say about your holy-miltary-country?!

i mean... why would you want to be in a country that invades other's business... peacefull business that is... just to make a profit

AMERICA IS THAT LITTLE POPULAR BITCH THAT EVERYONE HATES BEHIND HER BACK, BECAUSE OF HER NOSY, CRUEL AND VICIOUS ATTITUDE.

those that never have any stories of failure, never tried anything

reply

"America is that little popular bitch that everyone hates behind her back, because of her nosy, cruel and vicious attitude."
We are nosy. Especially when a German leader starts to eradicate the Jewish race as well as conquer the world. We are nosy when the Japanese empire starts to conquer the far east, trying to forcefully assimilate all neighboring cultures into there own. We are nosy when countries all over the world start falling to a political system(Marxism), whose stated goal is to violently end the way of life of our nation. Yes, Marx said that violently overthrowing the capitalists is the only way. And, in the fifties and sixties countries were dropping like flies to communism, so we got a little scared, and yes we dont really mind war. We're even starting to get nosy over there in the Sudan, where hundreds of thousands of innocent people are getting killed, though we should of got nosy about a year ago.
Cruel and vicious? Sounds more like the British when they decided to invade India , and annex it into their empire, a colony to exploit. Indian muslin weavers were the finest in the world, famous for their fine silk. But the British, literally cut off their fingers, because they were in competition with British textile factories. Cruel and vicious is when the British told Arab revolutionaries to fight against the Ottomans for their freedom, than after WWI was finished they decided to split the Arab territories for themselves and the French(see sykes-picot agreement). They were able to this because of their military might. Europeans(and others) have done countless acts of vicious cruelty all over the world throughout history. How about when the Chinese tried to stop its population from being addicted to opium? The British went to war with them for that! I have heard that German colonialism, especially in Africa, was even worse. What about the French in Algeria, all the torture?
When did these European nations give up their colonies and start preaching against war and imperialism? Could it be between the 1940's and 1960's, around the same time they lost their military strength? Wow, that's funny, soon as they lost their guns, they started preaching against them. Could it be that the poor status of Africa, India, the far east, is due to European imperialism, made possible by superior militaries? Could it be that these nations are free from Nazi Germany, Facsist Italy and the Imperial Japan because of the US? Could it be that they are free from Soviet-dominated totalitarian regimes, because of the US? Could it be that the third world economies are getting better because of free trade agreements that open the rich market of the US to third world products? What about over a hundred nations which have constitutions guaranteeing the rights of its citizens? What about the airplane, the telephone, the record player, the film projector, the PC, the assembly line, rock n' roll, jazz, blues, hip-hop? What about your free-market economies? You are all Americans all over the world, like it or not. That is why you single out everything that is bad about the US, and we thank you for it. A lot of us listen and it is good that you guys are free to speak that way. But think about it, if we didn't do all of those bad things, than we would be perfect, you woudn't have anything to criticize. Everyone in the world would be wearing baseball caps!
And another note, my family is from Bangladesh, an Islamic nation, but here in America, i have never felt any criticism or prejudice, i have always felt welcome and at home. Americans consider me American. My best friends are Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Black, white, chinese. All americans. But i know of Asians that are born and raised in European nations yet not considered Italian, or British or French? Why is that? America opened its doors to the whole world, anybody can come join, provided they have the necessary credentials. We do not discrimate against race, religion or gender. By the way i understand America is a child of Europe and i respect Europe and their beliefs(especially the French), i am just expressing my mind for the haters.
Word
Oh yeah, and Europeans probably do know more about America than average Americans. Thats because we are on their minds constantly. Americans don't care about Europeans because we... just don't care. Europeans are great thinkers too. Americans are doers. We act. They think.
Peace to all of you, and sorry about global warming.

reply

First of all, if you think Marxism is that bad, then explain it to me, because I really don't understand what is so wrong in that economic and social way of life that is so satanic, and by the way, the countries that were of that kind of system never try to invade United States, except for Russia maybe, but if you really know what comunist is you will also get to the conclusion that Stalin wasn't communist, he was a dictador... and you can't judge the way of acting of one person to judge the rest of them... that wouln't be ethical... have you read The Capital, The Marxist Manifest, I don't think so... if you read it sometime I would be glad to discuss it with you... here another cuestion, what is capitalism???

On the other hand, I think that when other people say that American don't know their history they are talking about what they have done since the day they born... in latinamerica, we can really tell you what the goverment of the United States have done to the world, every single dictator we had we have to thank that country you say love everybody, one good example is Nicaragua, they had a party that weren't even communist, their only goal was to repart the land equally between the nicaraguenses, what United States did?, the put Somoza, one of the biggest dictators in latin america history, even Roosvelt sait himself, 'Somoza is a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch'...

An other good example is the latin america 9/11, we have a 9/11... but we have it thanks to United States, we comemorated the dead and disappearance of more than 30 thousand 'chilenos' and other people thanks to Augusto Pinochet, who kill the elected socialist presidet Salvador Allende and put a goverment of violence with help of the CIA... Pinochet is still alive protected by the CIA... if I kill a white rich man, i'm convicted, maybe to dead, depends on how powerful the person I kill is, but if one dictator kill thousands of people, it's ok, he can live in his house because he was 'helping' United States...

One last thing, they can make you believe and fell like you are one of them, but if you look closely you'll see you will never be one of them... at least not for the goverment, because you can't generalize and say that Americans are like their goverment... history can teach you that's not true

PD- My contry still a colony from the United States, and as a matter of fact, thats illegal, my own grandfather has been fallowed day and night for the FBI just because he believe in the freedom that United States don't want to give us... my grandfather is not a terrorist... but they still doing it because after all they think they are the owners of the world...

PD2- I'm from Puerto Rico


And I leave you with a thought of one of the greatest spanish writters, Eduardo Galeano... 'the visible colonialism mutilate you without hiding it: forbit you to say, forbit you to do, forbid you to be. Invisible colonialism, on the other hand, convince you that servitude is your destiny and impotence you nature: convince you that you're unable to say, unable to to do, unable to speak'

Good night... sorry for my grammal, English is my second language and I don't really like it...

reply

Communism, in the 20th century, is reponsible for the death of 100 million people - most of it the governments against their own people. Most of it was done by Lenin, Stalin, and Mao. They made Hitler look like a piker.

That is why I believe that Communism/Marxism/Totalitarian Socialism is evil.

How quickly some of you forget.

reply

1) Marxism and Communism are not synonyms

2) Excuse me? We paid attention when "a German leader starts to eradicate the Jewish race as well as conquer the world"?
As Eddie Izzard said, "We sure won't stand for that in a few years!"

3) "We are nosy when the Japanese empire starts to conquer the far east, trying to forcefully assimilate all neighboring cultures into there own."
Or perhaps as soon as they attack us.

Geez. Anyone on earth in the US or otherwise could tell you how wrong those two statements were.

I'm iffy on free trade agreements being to the benefit of the world at large, but by iffy I mean that I don't know enough to comment with assurance. But even with my admittedly limited knowledge of history (it's pretty rough), the above statements are completely twisted from reality.

We fought against Japan when they attacked us, and then Germany because we were in it by then--it certainly had nothing to do with the genocide occurring in Europe (otherwise we'd probably not have turned away the Jews seeking refuge in the USA...).

reply

"We do not discrimate against race, religion or gender"

Thats Funny !!! Thank you for the Laugh!

reply

Germany decared war on America 4 days after pearl harbor, lets not forget that.... and of course all that was well over 2 years after the start of WW2

reply

<<Germany decared war on America 4 days after pearl harbor, lets not forget that.... and of course all that was well over 2 years after the start of WW2 >>

Yep, you are correct - and that is because of isolationists in this country who didn't want to get involved. Many of them used similar reasons for non-involvement that are being used against the War on Terror now.

If we would not have gotten involved in WW II, Hitler would have gotten the atomic bomb and perfected his rocket technology. And we'd be speaking German right now.

Thank God FDR knew what he was doing - even though he broke US law by helping the Brits in 1939. This Republican thinks FDR was the greatest president of the 20th century, for that reason alone.

reply

Good points FangsFirst. I can't get over how many people think communism is a system of government. It is an economic principle, the very one that labor unions are based on. However, communist countries have had totaltarian forms of government.

Both Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro wanted and expected to devolope strong trade relations with the U.S. so as not to have to rely on Russia and China for aid. Unfortanately because they had a communist economy we declared them as hostile.

If your working 60 hours a week and still can't pay your bills, or don't have a job cuz your job went overseas, how's that capitalism thing working out for you?

reply

<<<If your working 60 hours a week and still can't pay your bills, or don't have a job cuz your job went overseas, how's that capitalism thing working out for you? >>

That statement would make sense if we had a high unemployment rate - but we have one of the lowest rates in the world. It's also historically low for our country when compared to historical numbers.

How do you explain this? Just wonderin....

Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro had problems over and above their communist economic systems. That being said, we would be better off trading with Cuba today than giving them the cold shoulder - if we would have done that in the 1960s they would have never stayed communist. Interaction with America would have been too seductive.

Look at China - opening trade with them has made that country much better off in almost every way than they were before - and I believe they are on their way to a democratic state. That was a stroke of genius by Nixon - but of course the far left would NEVER admit that.

reply

<<I can't get over how many people think communism is a system of government. It is an economic principle, the very one that labor unions are based on. However, communist countries have had totaltarian forms of government.>>

Name one Communist country that never had a totalitarian form of government. You need that in order to enforce that economic system.

And by the way, Cuba, in case you forgot, is a totalitarian state.

I think we should open relations with Cuba now, and set up trade agreements with them. If we did that, Cuba would not be totalitarian for long. Look at what is happening in China.

reply

"We are nosy. Especially when a German leader starts to eradicate the Jewish race as well as conquer the world. We are nosy when the Japanese empire starts to conquer the far east, trying to forcefully assimilate all neighboring cultures into there own."
Hmm, you seem to forget that the US did nothing to help the Jewish race and it wouldnt have if it wasnt attacked by Japan. Japan forced the US in WWII, for some years before that, Jewish people where being kiled...

"We are nosy when countries all over the world start falling to a political system(Marxism), whose stated goal is to violently end the way of life of our nation. Yes, Marx said that violently overthrowing the capitalists is the only way."
And why should the US "save" those "poor" countries from communism? Who told you that you have the right to decide what is best for the rest of the world? Do you also tell your neighbour how to live his life?

"And, in the fifties and sixties countries were dropping like flies to communism, so we got a little scared,"
Doesnt it seem a bit wierd that a biggest military/economic power of the world gets scared?

"and yes we dont really mind war."
No comment.

"We're even starting to get nosy over there in the Sudan, where hundreds of thousands of innocent people are getting killed, though we should of got nosy about a year ago"
For some strange reason the US cares only about some of the innocent people getting killed in the world. It cared so much about the poor people of Irak, but dont see the oppression that goes on in South American dictatorships since their corrupt leaders are cooperating. The US didnt see a need to intervene in Cyprus in 1974, when the Turkish army occupied 40% of the island and killed civiliants, maybe because Turky is one of the biggest customers for the US military and a strategic ally next to the oil producing countries of the middle east.

Your post sums up all the reasons why most of the world is angry at the US.

If you think about though, any super power would do the same or possibly worst. Any super power will do what it has to remain in control. There is no other reason for the actions you think where done for some greater good. The sad thing is that the whole world can see that except you and the majority of your country men.

reply

Germany was compelled to declare war on the USA as they had signed the tripartate treaty with Japan, they had no interest in declaring war on the US because they knew that it would make winning the war very difficult. FDR wanted to join the war and fight with Britain, but public opinion in the US was strongly against it. For better or ill it was actually the USA's intention to provoke war with Japan, which they did via economic sanctions. The attack on Pearl Harbour was anything but a suprise, since US intelligence had broken both the Japanese diplomatic and Naval intelligence codes and even diverted commercial naval traffic from the area so that Pearl Harbour would not be warned accidentally. They simply needed an 'in'.

Someone also posted about the collapse of imperialism after the war, the British were actually in a great deal of debt (monetary as well as socially one might say) because the US had made a very good trade on selling weapons to the British so that they could continue fighting, I think the UK finished paying this debt off last year (2005). War is good for business as they say, what better capitalist product is there than a bomb? One use and then you have to buy another. To fail to learn the mistakes of the past (i.e. imperial intervention in the affairs of another country) though is a greater ignorance.

The colonial yoke was removed by circumstance more than design and it is to the shame of any colonial power that this was the case, however one only needs to look at post colonial Africa to see the problems that have resulted from the resulting power vacuum (note that free nations of Africa were told to pick a side in the USA / USSR divide during the cold war and again supplied with arms, colonialism by proxy).

That is history though, full of ambiguity, a man might do a bad thing for a good reason or a man might do a good thing for a bad reason. History will judge, but again the present is only history in process.

Everyone here seems to talk very much in absolutes, America is this, American people are that. I would say every American person I have ever met has been polite, honest and friendly. If only the country could shine with the light of the individual.

If a citizen has any duty it is to be informed of their government's actions and seek to become familiar with both the reasons for and against those actions. Since corporate entities have both this knowledge and the means to have their arguments heard by those in power, the individual must also use the channels open to them to do this, including demonstration and peaceful civil disobedience.

reply

I only hope that if the European continent is ever again engulfed in war, the American military stays home. What a waste otherwise.

reply

<<The attack on Pearl Harbour was anything but a suprise, since US intelligence had broken both the Japanese diplomatic and Naval intelligence codes and even diverted commercial naval traffic from the area so that Pearl Harbour would not be warned accidentally.>>

This is a long-standing urban myth for which there is no credible proof. Could it be true? I suppose, but to believe that this is why WW II broke out in the Pacific is really wrong-headed. Study what Japan was doing to it's neighbors in the 1920s and 1930s to get a sense for why WW II happened. It wasn't based on a short-term economic argument between the USA and Japan. If it happened the way you say it did, the USA would have been much better prepared for war in 1941.

Imperial Japan was emerging as a totalitarian, racist power. They were taking over territory left and right. They were doing the same kind of things that Hitler was doing in Europe at the time. Google Nan King.

reply


Bravo Zaigham8,

You said everything I wanted to say & more. Another example of European Imperialism and Exploitation is France in Vietnam, a rather large example
in world history.

reply

"It never really got into the business-aspect, or go in depth into what the military-industrial complex is, or any economic principals."

If it did, it would diminish what little mass-appeal it has. Let's not forget, good movies NEED an emotional element (otherwise it's an experimental or "artistic" film).

I, who learned a great deal from this movie as is, felt that the amount of information was relevant to a "newcommer."

I agree, the strong shift to an "anti-iraq" film did make the film less universal, but the film had already made plenty of other interesting facts by that point and throughout.

Clearly, there is enough information here to make more than one 99 minute movie...perhaps there will be a sequel.

reply