I enjoyed the movie a lot & god bless Arthur. But you have to wonder if all these NY Dolls fans who go on and on and on in this movie about how revolutionary the Dolls were and how original and amazing they were, etc, etc. have ever heard of the original Alice Cooper group. Seriously, check out the original AC band of the early 70s. Listen to the album Love It To Death. Look at the cover!! Then tell me how trail blazing the Dolls were.
shareThank you, Ted. SOMEONE had to say it. For some reason, the rock music world likes to act like Alice Cooper never existed. And by the way, while the New York Dolls music has its moments, the original Alice Cooper group's music is far superior.
shareThe rock music world like to act like Alice Cooper never existed??? Compare the number of Dolls songs you hear on the radio compared to the amount of royalties Alice has gotten for his "rock", which IMO is one step from Meatloaf/Jim Steinman opera.
Alice did his schtick, went home early, woke up and went to church.
The Dolls weren't putting on a Halloween show, what you saw was what you got.
The New York Dolls weren't putting on a Halloween show? Are we talking about the same New York Dolls?
Look, I like David and the rest of those guys, and while you might not fully appreciate the music the Alice Cooper Band wrote and performed, it doesn't change the fact that while the Dolls had their moments, they came out AFTER Alice Cooper and their music was not nearly as impressive.
Sure Alice went soft and schticky for a while after the group disbanded, but all entertainers have up and down periods throughout their careers. I'm not saying the Dolls don't deserve recognition. All i'm saying is they don't deserve it over Alice Cooper.
Very well put, both of you! It seems that Alice, like Ozzy, lost his threatening, "demonic" stature in pop culture (golfing and a conversion to Christianity will do that sort of thing, y'know) and, thus, it is as if Alice Cooper (the late 60's-to-mid 70's version anyway) never existed. Behind the stage props the group were phenomenal musicians and Alice Cooper himself wrote some timeless rock anthems and had one of the greatest stage presences this side of Mick Jagger. Maybe the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame should take note.
shareFunnily enough Cooper has a Mormon connection too
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It's not "Sci-Fi", it's SF!
"Calvinism is a very liberal religious ethos." - Truekiwijoker
Remember, the Dolls were from New York, which gave them a lot of street credibility in the eyes of the music press, much of which was based in NYC at the time (Village Voice, Creem, etc). To the music establishment Alice Cooper seemed more like a put-on, an act, not really threatening, except maybe to mid-western grandmothers and religious fundementalists, kind of like Marilyn Manson is these days. With the New York Dolls, people really didn't know which side of the street they were on sexually, and they had this junkie vibe. Not saying that's good or bad but it certainly colored perceptions of the band. The other difference is a sort of DIY ethic of the Dolls that helped inspire the punk and indie generations. This doesn't seem to be present with Alice Cooper.
shareBelieve me, I had every single album of the original Alice Cooper group, and I don't want to sell them short, but they didn't have the influence that the Dolls did. Here's one big example: Malcolm McLaren, who managed the Dolls just before they split in the seventies, went on to form the Sex Pistols.
When you consider the relative fate of Alice Cooper and the Dolls, it reminds me of Macbeth, who the weird sisters prophesized would be king, and Banquo, who would not be king himself, but would be the father of a long line of kings.
I don't agree that the New York Dolls weren't as good musically as the old Alice, (though I do agree that, musically, Alice's old band never got the respect they deserved.) Alice was better recorded, but the product was heavily processed and often sweetened with strings and horns. The dolls were punk before punk had a name, and the Dolls wrote lyrics with an honest emotional intensity that few bands could touch, certainly not the compulsively ironic Alice.
Just the other day, I heard the live album from the Dolls reunion show, and I was blown away by just how good the old songs sounded, thanks to better recording technology. The songs were also musically a lot more complex than I ever realized.
And Killer Kane sounded great!
Awhile back I read that the BBC was doing some programs about rock pioneers, and one of them was about Alice Cooper. It was hosted by Johnny Rotton. He said that AC was a big influence on him, and that he remembered lip-synching to Cooper's "Eighteen" in the mirror.
I've also heard that Alice Cooper isn't in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and neither is Rush. If that's true then the HOF is a joke.
I loved the Dolls and Stooges as well.
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How about the fact that the Bee Gees are in but that KISS is not? It is supposed to be the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, isn't it? What a joke.
shareWe can not control what influences other musicians. Just because Alice Cooper wrote great music doesnt mean others were influenced by it.
I admit I only know a few Cooper songs but the ones I do know dont seem to have the feel of emotion and power as do the Doll's songs. Its not like I listen to AC and think "man, he sounds like punk before punk was around" But with the Dolls I do.
It is like listening Free. They sound like they were around in the late 70's because of their sound, but their first hit "all right know" was released in 1970, way before "power rock" was around.
If the Dolls were their influence then they were their influence.
"But you have to wonder if all these NY Dolls fans who go on and on and on in this movie about how revolutionary the Dolls were and how original and amazing they were, etc, etc. have ever heard of the original Alice Cooper group. Seriously, check out the original AC band of the early 70s. Listen to the album Love It To Death. Look at the cover!! Then tell me how trail blazing the Dolls were."
Sure Alice cooper was influential but this movie was about the Dolls. Listen to Love it to Death or Killer next to a Dolls record, both are great but they don't sound too similar. Yeah they both were in semi-drag but thats about the only similarity(other than the fact that they are both incredible rock'n'roll bands).
"Both are great but they don't sound too similar." I gotta agree with this. I was a total Cooper Trooper all through high school and yes, the first 3-4 Alice albums are indeed amazing as far as influence it was always the Dolls for me. And then well Alice turned all commercial and *beep* the Dolls even with the really brief career they had, still continue to subtle-ly influence me today! Long live punk!!
shareexactly, i mean if you want to focus on the drag elements, then david bowie did everything the dolls did, with better fashion sense, as Ziggy Stardust. But he sure didn't sound like the Dolls, and neither did the Cooper Band, IMO.
shareI agree with OP. I love the Dolls, but Alice's original band were
miles above them. THey actually succeeded in may ways where the Dolls failed. The original AC band that is. I'd like to see Glenn Buxton receive some kind of doc treatment someday. He deserves it as much as Arthur did.
Normal Is A Myth. foadadlh
http://www.preventchildabuse.org/help/reach_out.shtml
I totally agree with most of the posts here, especially about the late, great Glenn Buxton needing his own documentary or at least greater appreciation. He was one of the finest guitarists ever, and as responsible for the "Alice Cooper sound" as anyone else (including the lead singer). Remember, Alice Cooper was a band before it was a solo artist.
As for the Alice Cooper's influence on the New York Dolls, its hard to deny and really deserves a mention here -- not just because of the "look" (drag is just clothing, after all) but because of the sound and attitude. The documentary credits the Dolls for influencing bands like Motley Crew in the '80s, when really they owed more to the Coop, Kiss and Bowie.
This is not a contest, of course. Alice Cooper and the Dolls both have their place in music history, but Alice came first, and credit where credit is due. Rock on!
"The documentary credits the Dolls for influencing bands like Motley Crew in the '80s, when really they owed more to the Coop, Kiss and Bowie."
Since early on in their carrer, Motley themselves always recognized the Dolls as one of their biggest influences.
It is clear however that Alice and Kiss were influences as well.
I would say that to compare old AC to the Dolls in terms of influence, one needs to consider the fact that both influenced different sets of musicians. While there is some crossover in influence, The Dolls had more of an influence on the punk movement, and the original Alice Cooper band had more influence on metal acts.
That's very true about the Dolls influencing the punks and the Coop influencing the metalheads. It is rather ironic that Mötley Crüe considers them a bigger influence than Kiss or Coop, though, because the Crüe were certainly more metal than punk – at least in sound.
shareArthur Brown came before Alice Cooper. Cooper is great, but Arthur Brown was the true original shock rocker.
jellobiafra2000:
Arthur Brown came before Alice Cooper. Cooper is great, but Arthur Brown was the true original shock rocker.
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I totally thought the same thing, Jello.
Alice was a shock rocker with wild stage antics whereas the Dolls were so shocking simply because they made hetero men uptight as they wore more makeup than than the female groupies chasing after them.
I read in a magazine (remember them things?) article in the 90's that Alice was more accepted by hetero men because his makeup was horror makeup, not girly makeup, and therefore was more acceptable because monsters were considered cool and bad-ass whereas drag was considered simply disturbing.
Regarding David Bowie, his music was much more sophisticated, his outfits more expensive and his stage act was an amalgam of Vaudeville, Broadway & Mime, as opposed to the Dolls who looked super duper gay (not to insult!)but strutted around like peaCOCKS.
Cheers...
New York Dolls- Drag Queens
Alice Cooper- Horror Show
David Bowie- Alien creature
Of the three, only Bowie outgrew his act, probably because he had a superior talent of the other two.