This movie is irresponsible


What we learn in this movie: Muslims don't commit suicide bombings out of a hatred of the West, they just want to paintball and go to Disneyland.

Oh, wait, what about the Madrid train bombings and the 7/7 attacks?

Those must be false-flag ops.

And those people on the internet claiming that they are bombing for Allah?

Paid actors?

This movie makes people think they should resent their government, but really, security should be sought in a world of uncertainty.

p.s. Strauss was a European Jew who realized that evil exists in the world and we must be vigilant. You can't live with your head in the sand.



For all the liberal Muslim apologists out there, try going to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan with you ipod and your compassion for others. If we don't feel compelled to defend our way of life, we could all be living under a caliphate if the world's fastest growing ideology has its way.

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Oh, wait, what about the Madrid train bombings and the 7/7 attacks? >>

Who knows... Maybe they have their own home grown terrorists who with their own agenda, not necessarily al qaeda, and not necessarily religious fanatics.

Richard

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I am from Madrid and was there when the train bombings happened and all I can tell you is READ READ READ. Before talking about this have some knowledge... it is a big lie what you wrote. There was a trial for this and there was no relation with any home grown terrorist group. ETA, what you call in an absurd way home grown terrorist group, was the first time in the history condemning a terrorist attack, the Madrid bombs. You have no idea about this and you are not respecting the people who died there with this big fat lie. READ READ and READ.

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As much as disagreed with the OP on his post, I'll have to disagree with yours to just about the same extent.

I've said before and I'll say it again, partisan politics stinks. Of course, I am assuming that the two of you are diametrically opposed on the political spectrum but I could be wrong.

Your supposition as the devil's advocate is as incredulous as the OP's is myopic.

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I'm glad to see that at least someone has not left their skeptism at the door when they viewed this movie.

This documentary is so keen to revise and simplify history that it just leaves out Madrid bombing and other acts of real terrorism. It does not go into the false flag idea because otherwise it would be to paranoid like it tells us our governments are, but it does not account for radical Islam either.

I think it is good that people try to explain things, so I cannot fault them for trying, I just do not think things are so simple that I do know from history that minor threats that seem laughable, like the Nazi party in their early stages can grow exponentially transforming unrecognizeably and destroying the whole world and millions of people.

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I guess the Nazis were right about the world-wide pacifist and Jewish conspiracy?

And I guess the US was correct that there was a world-wide Communist conspiracy to destroy "freedom and democracy because they are godless apple pie hating reds!"?

While were still on the US, I guess there really was a world-wide Satanic conspiracy to rape and torture children to, in their own homes, while magically never causing physical vaginal stress?

Am I beginning to see a pattern? Each one completely disproven and each one having nothing to back it up for its conclusion at the time, akin to the current dilemma.

There is nothing more ignorant than someone stating something is "simplified and wrong so we should ignore it" without somehow backing that statement up with, well...anything.

Oh, that logical fallacy you used doesn’t win you anything. You know that whole "oh wont somebody think of the children" argument (aka: they are forgetting the Madrid bombings and other terrorism, despite the fact that the existence of attacks is never questioned, in fact bringing them up for no reason is also a petty argument)

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You know, I am sure that you having something to say and a
valid point of view, and I am not afraid to argue my point.
The thing is ... are you aware that your post makes no
sense? I have read it twice and have no clue was to what
you are trying to say. So, try calming down, losing the
sarcasm, and making your point clearly again and we can
talk.

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The Madrid bombing IS mentioned in the documentary - but as an act of terrorism which happened because... well, awful *beep* happens and always will probably.

But - like 9/11 - it was not an act executed by a globally organised terrorist faction . This is the whole point of the documentary - acts of terrorism will occur partly because the governments of the Western world create demons out of thin air.

Virtually no country has achieved independence without some act that could be construed as 'terrorist' by today's standards i may add - including my own - Ireland.

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> But - like 9/11 - it was not an act executed by a globally
> organised terrorist faction

Strickly that is not really true, the idea of terrorism and
expansionism has been planted in the minds of radical Islamists.
Their strategy while distributed and decentralized is still
global, so it does not really matter if there was a leader
general somewhere like bin Laden. If Islam started to be
stronger and more victorious I am sure bin Laden would emerge
to vie for explicit leadership of the "calliphate" with very
good credidentials.

The idea that the Middle East is not independent is an
interesting one. They are independent enough to focus around
and develop radical Islam, and their respective terrorizing
totalitarian societies, right?

Independed means doing what you want, and if they are not free
to do what they want, it is the fault of their relgious
societies. When acting independent they choose terror and
slavery ... that is what throws us in the West I think, we
are not used to that, but we have not been terrorized from
birth to believe in an on-Earth God delivering his power and
will through a government religious structure either ... ie.
we have not been brainwashed to the extent that we cannot
overcome it.

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The Spanish government (not the Spanish population as the polls shown the mayority of the population didn´t want to get involved in this war) was one of the countries who supported USA invading Afganistan after Sept 11th. The result of this was the Madrid bombs. I don´t know if it was al quaeda or other radical fundamentalist group related with talibans but this is what happened in my city because of a government going against the will of their own country.

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Even now you will tip-toe (or more accurately...stumble) around any opposition, claiming "Your not making any sense", "its not valid", "you need to calm down and speak properly" despite your opposition being quite clear.

It’s pathetic, and shows nothing more than your blatant intention ignorance in order to secure your defeated views.

You compare terrorist attacks to the rise of Nazi Germany, a failed argument. You think that pointing out the completely falsity of a "global terrorist conspiracy" as somehow ignoring the fact there is one.

How exactly is that ANY different than the countless other times when people have brought up a problem and then equated it with a conspiracy? Because as ive said, and you intentionally ignored, the Jews were a real problem, and the Communists were trying to take over the world, and Satanists did have a world wide network of child abusers...because all of that, totally unsupported by any sort of evidence, should be assumed as valid by your failed logic.

Try again, this time without the "your not making sense, and your being sarcastic so calm down" bullsh!t to justify your ignorant attitude.

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Oh yeah, of course, how could I forget.

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Wow...still won't even refute my argument. How sad.

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I understood the response quite well. You are'nt backing up your bogus claims with anything. You bring up the Madrid bombings, but the fact that there was a bombing in Madrid was never called into question. We are all aware that a bombing in Madrid did take place. What needs to be looked at is why the bombing took place. Was it a random and merciless attack by mean spirited Muslims or was retaliationg for a wrong the Spanish had commited. Our memories seem to be so short lived as a society, but it wasn't that long ago that Western powers like Spain and America and France and England were spitting in the face of these people and stealing their oil. In the wordso f Malcome X, "the chickens have come home to roost." Maybe these people would not be acting this way if we had treated them with one once of respect.

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Do, you believe the people targetted in the Madrid bombing were guilty of "something"
and justly punished then, is that it?

As for stealing between nations you can go back far enough in history and find that most
nations have done that, and in fact, is it really "nations" that do that, and all the people of
those nations are guilty, or is it the political and business leaders?

Also, the religion of Islam was born in war. Mohammed was a general who attacked
cities and murdered people, thus the concept of jihad, and the laws that in Muslim
countries non-Muslims are sub-human in terms of the law and religion.

Then, these people, come to West to take advantage of the freedom of the West, and
subvert and attack that freedom and want to drag it down into a Muslim centered
society.

It seems to me that the nature of the war is clear, it is Muslim intolerance wherever
it is centered, and all these stories, lies and excuses are just rationalization to motivate
and army of hate.

And by the way, the greatest transfer of wealth in history has been the trillions of dollars
the West has paid the oil producing countries for the oil they would not even be using or
benefiting from if it were not for the West and our tolerance and mostly fair business
practices.

The arguments here are all based on the fact that the West is not perfect, but any
discussion of the reality of Islamic society and Muslim terror and barbarity are out of
bounds because it is racist.

I think I covered everything, but if you want some more eye-openeing truths, just
let me know and I'll be glad to put you right.

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I agree with what you say but one thing... it is not the Spanish, it is the Spanish government. The mayority of the Spanish population didn´t want to intervene in the war against Afganistan but the government ignored it. This was probably the cause of the Madrid bombs. The people who died in the attack in Madrid weren´t greedy people looking for petrol. The people who died there were working class people who were going to work in a normal day early in the morning. I am from Madrid and I was in Madrid that day and I have used the train that goes to Atocha, it is the most crowded and used by people going to work in the morning. These people didn´t deserve what happened, these people never spit on anybody face in Middle East and these people never receive any money taken from Middle East so please keep it in mind when you write. There are people who create wars and who get rich with them and there are people who pay the consequences as it happened in Madrid.

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Hey Bruce, he never said that terrorism or Islamic extremists do not exist. Rather Western governments use what does exist and perpetuate fables that paint it as a much larger threat than it really is... All in their own self-interest in creating what they see to be their ideal world.

Of course terrorism poses a threat to our society, as it always has. More than ever we are creating the terrorist threat and fuelling its growth. While it may be a disparate and loose movement now, more attacks on countries in the Middle-East could soon change that.

An interesting question... Who would you say is the bigger terrorist group: a group that has killed around 4000 people or a group that has killed at least 600 000?

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I agree with what you wrote but I also think it is quite ethnocentric to say we are fully responsible. I mean we are all adults and have responsibility for what we do. I don´t know what it is in the head of European people who decide to join IS today but I can´t say we are responsible for that. Maybe they were bullied, they had terrible lives in their countries but it´s quite extreme what they have done and they are responsible for this. Europe and USA assume the responsibility for everything... that´s treating the rest of the world as children because they suffer our actions and they don´t have any responsibility.

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It was broadcast in late 2004, months after the Madrid bombings and months prior to the London bombings. We can only hope that Curtis wiped the egg from his face and crawled back under the stone from whence he came.

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[deleted]

give me a break ... while I enjoyed the movie, it was an emotional experience,
the handwaving over vast eras of time where lots of things happened is always
portrayed as if it was all planned by some dastardly elite, but who is it, where
are they.

Lots of food or thought, but mostly mental associations and simplified
models of reality so simple that they are not that useful.

I am not furthering any illusion, I'm just saying what is the point of this movie
really except to act as another conspiracy theory ... people love a good
conspiracy theory.

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[deleted]

my eyes are open, come on, coverups and unanswered questions do not prove a
conspiracy, and if there is a conspiracy how do you get people to agree to get on
the same page by calling them names and pretending they don't know what
they are doing?

Someone had better think of how to find these conspirators instead of just
talking about them.

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[deleted]


oh come on, get back on your meds, or at least talk specifics.

i don't like neo conservative insanity, or neo liberal insanity either, but
it does not help for me to go insane over it.

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[deleted]


roll, troll!

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[deleted]

[deleted]

The bomb attacks in London (7/7) happened in 2005. This movie was released in Oct 2004.

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Eiderdown is off his rocker! The point of the film is not that there are no Islamofascists intent on imposing a berzerk universal theocracy, but rather that they are not particularly well organized and the threat that they pose is much more miniscule than those inherent to neocon imperialism. GET A GRIP!

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There has always been terrorism. There will always be bombings. Guess What? The world is and always has been a dangerous place. This movie explains that governments exaggerate the danger for their own benefit. That point is made well and is almost irrefutable. I don't see the point in expecting your government to provide you with complete protection from terrorism. That would be an idiotic concept.

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Terrorists are not exclusive to muslims, this is something people seem to fail to realise, first of all the word terrorist is thrown around so much these days that it has almost lost its meaning. USA have commited acts of terroristm too and are at this very moment. Terrorists is not something new to the world, it has always existed so why do Bush stir it up as a new threat to the world and they as the "good guys" will save us from the "bad guys". Well it's blatantly obvious that it's because they want to control the people to support their brutal conquest throughout the world. This is by no means a knew method, nazis used it and so have every damn superpower ever. They glorify their own nation, they show the same things in media over and over again and knowingly cut out parts that would make people go against them. It's not exactly anything original, they are controlling people by fear, manufacturing concent, nothing more nothing less.

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Doh... you guys really haven't looked into 7/7! It is obviously a false flag attack. Try to look into the exercises which took place the 7/7 concerning terrorist attacks at the exact same places where the bombs got off.
Would make the world a better place to live if you remembered your skepticism in everyday life, and especially to what the mainstream medias tell you. (Even though they to did mention it)

And just so Conservatives don't take it to heart
I don't think Bush did it, 'cuz he isn't that smart
He's just a stupid puppet taking orders on his cell phone
From the same people that sabotaged Senator Wellstone
The military industry got it poppin' and lockin'
Looking for a way to justify the Wolfowitz Doctrine
And as a matter of fact, Rumsfeld, now that I think back
Without 9/11, you couldn't have a war in Iraq
Or a Defense budget of world conquest proportions
Kill freedom of speech and revoke the right to abortions
Tax cut extortion, a blessing to the wealthy and wicked
But you still have to answer to the Armageddon you scripted
And Dick Cheney, you *beep* leech, tell them your plans
About building your pipelines through Afghanistan
And how Israeli troops trained the Taliban in Pakistan
You might have some house *beep* fooled, but I understand
Colonialism is sponsored by corporations
That's why Halliburton gets paid to rebuild nations
Tell me the truth, I don't scare into paralysis
I know the CIA saw Bin Laden on dialysis
In '98 when he was Top Ten for the FBI
Government ties is really why the Government lies
Read it yourself instead of asking the Government why
'Cuz then the Cause of Death will cause the propaganda to die..

I know a lot of people find it hard to swallow this
Because subliminal bigotry makes you hate my politics
But you act like America wouldn't destroy two buildings
In a country that was sponsoring bombs dropped on our children
I was watching the Towers, and though I wasn't the closest
I saw them crumble to the Earth like they was full of explosives
And they thought nobody noticed the news report that they did
About the bombs planted on the George Washington bridge
Four Non-Arabs arrested during the emergency
And then it disappeared from the news permanently
They dubbed a tape of Osama, and they said it was proof
"Jealous of our freedom," I can't believe you bought that excuse
Rockin a *beep* flag don't make you a hero
Word to Ground Zero
The Devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th
The New World Order was born on September 11

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And those people on the internet claiming that they are bombing for Allah?


Pay attention to the movie next time, and you will see that Extreme Islam is similar and similarly dangerous to Neo-Conservatism.

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"Pay attention to the movie next time, and you will see that Extreme Islam is similar and similarly dangerous to Neo-Conservatism"

You might have had a point if Western governments put out manifestos demanding that everyone had better convert to Christianity, and if you don't they have the right to kill you;

or defended the use of suicide attacks as a legitimate means of political defence;

or demanded that women be controlled under the strictures of the Caliphate...

But this isn't happening.

Now, are Western ghouls making tons of money as Iraq bathes itself in blood? Yes. Who are killing the majority of innocent citizens now? Iraqis themselves in suicide attacks, done in the name of Allah and his inevitable glory!
Have Western governments caused enormous amounts of deaths in interventions? Yes. Is it right to invade countries like Afghanistan and Iraq to defend the freedoms that we are exacting on this board right now? Yes. It's hypocrisy to suggest otherwise. 'Oh yes, I enjoy these freedoms, but not enough to allow others to enjoy it.' Come on now. If not on Iraq can we at least get together on getting rid of the Taliban?!
Report only in the last few weeks in Somalia about a 13 year old girl, raped, and then stoned for apparently being adulterous!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7708169.stm

It's one thing for this reasonably balanced documentary to admit that there are Islamic terrorists in the world, it's quite another to suggest that nothing can be done about that. Further, seeing as we have a Democratic administration in America now, does intervention by them no longer come tainted with the tag 'neo-con'? Why not. It's aims for freedom of expression and democracy in said regions are exactly the same (although I hope private interests aren't sucked so mercilessly as under Bush), so if people are to support one and not the other is contradictory.

Back to initial quote from reply above, I don't see many similarities between Radical Islam and Neo-Cons: I see a whole of death-drives in the former (self and otherwise), and gleeful patriotism in the latter, but I know which one I would rather have running my government. The one that wouldn't demand my sister only go outdoors in full hijab, or have my father ashamed if she gave birth to a girl rather than a boy.

It's not perfect, but I know which one I prefer.

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I don't understand why you think this film didn't portray Islamists as violent. The film said that all non-Muslims could be killed according to these Islamists, and also that there was a move from Qutb's thinking that Middle Eastern leaders weren't real Muslims so they could killed to Zawahiri's thinking that the people themselves weren't real Muslims so they also could be killed - it showed a slippery slope.

I commend skepticism, but I think here's also your reaction from a neocon perspective, where even trying to understand the reasons of the enemy becomes a form of betrayal.

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