MovieChat Forums > Omaret yakobean (2006) Discussion > What a homophobic backward, medieval cul...

What a homophobic backward, medieval culture.

posted 15 years ago by dharnold-1
47 replies | jump to latest

Jeeeeez, first thing I have to ask is, why are all the men so fat and unattractive??

The impression I get is of a society riven by a chasm between the wealthy and the poor.

If this is considered to be an "honest" dramatic representation of contemporary Egypt, the gawd help egypt. I don't say that because of its supposed 'warts and all' honesty, I mean that it is a deodorised fantasy, a candyfloss confection. If this is the best what on earth are the rest like?? They must be ghastly beyond imagining.

From a western point of view this society seems to me to be a really sick and dysfunctional "traditional" society, full of miserable, unhappy religious people. It seems, in its sociology, to be like western films from the 1930s.

And also from a secular atheist western point of view the muslim "priest" telling the middle aged man to get another wife is just, quite frankly, weird.

But what really angered me is the outrageous anti-gay aspect of the film, which is supposed to be so groundbreaking - again it's like a portrayal of gays from the 1930s: Predatory, unpleasant and vile. If the film wanted to portray gays in Egypt surely it could've done a better job than this outrageous and bigoted portrayal?

To be honest I found the negative portrayal of the homosexual theme to be vile and offensive. Just as I found some of the comments by others on these comments boards about the gay themes here to be vile and offensive. For your information boys and girls- homosexuality is not a "problem", it is perfectly natural part of human (and animal) sexuality. It is natural. The problems are caused by a society's persecution of homosexuals. A persecution invariably started by, endorsed by and constantly re-enforced by the evil of religion.

But, having said all the above, I did find the film quite interesting because I know little about egyptian society.

And it is interesting to view a society that is only capable of thinking, of framing things in religious terms. This to me indicates a society with none or bad education, where everything is viewed through a religious prism, which to me makes no sense.

As an atheist I found the religion all rather baffling and utterly sinister, not the for the more obvious reason that the boy becomes a terrorist, but because of the Orwellian mind and spiritual control it exerts on ordinary people. You can clearly see how religion is used by any ruling class to control people - even if, ironically, the religious loons encouraged by the ruling class then turn on the rulers!

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MohamedFawzy 15 years ago

This movie just wasn't meant for you, you are not yet willing to accept the diversity of cultures and views, you're not willing to accept other that don't see things the same way you do.

And FYI, education is not the opposite of religion, you're free to be atheist, but that doesn't mean that everyone that believes in a god is retarded.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

////"This movie just wasn't meant for you"

****Oh really. Well, why then promote it abroad if it's only for an egyptian domestic audience? Who is it for? Don't sell it abroad and put it up for awards etc etc

/////"You are not yet willing to accept the diversity of cultures and views,"

**** I am more than willing to accept the diversity of other cultures, as I said I found it interesting, as I know nothing about egypt. The fact that I didn't like what I saw and don't have any respect for what I saw, is besides the point.

//// "you're not willing to accept other that don't see things the same way you do."

****** In what way do you mean? If you mean the gay aspect, then I think i have a perfect right to comment on and criticise the malevolent portrayal, and the persecution, of gay people, being gay myself.

////// "And FYI, education is not the opposite of religion, "

***** Well, the better the education of a people the less they are religious. EG Europe. And the most religious in the USA are the worst educated.

///// "you're free to be atheist"

****Why thank you!

//////"That doesn't mean that everyone that believes in a god is retarded."

***** Sorry, but I would have to disagree.

[–] MohamedFawzy 15 years ago

I rest my case! :)
This movie really wasn't meant for YOU as a person ;)

[–] migos_image 15 years ago

Well am glad u watched the movie anyway, whether u liked it or not, still I find it gr8 that u now know more about Egypt.

But the problem is that this movie is very dark & mostly showing the bad side of Egypt, but thats because it is based on a terribly depressing novel that deals with lots of problems in Egypt like Corruption & homosexuality etc...
& thats why this movie ain't realistic, since most of Egyptians though suffer from life diffculties they are very optimistic, cheerful people who never give up & not theieves & killers like the movie showed everyone.
Anyway, about the antigay theme in the movie I wanna tell you a thing about Egypt that we are "unfourtnately" a very homophobic society, thats because Egyptians are very religious. Me myself I don't mind gays & I find it disgusting to judge people according to their sexuality thats probably because am open minded & I read a lot but thats not the case for my other educated friends!
anyway I hope you watch more Egyptian movies like "Sahar El layali" , "El Gezira", "Fe shaket Masr El gededa" they are movies of different genre that will show you lots about the Egyptian soul especially the latter which is very cheerful & funny.

[–] MIFTIKHARAZ 15 years ago

The movie shows only a part of Egypt - the dark part. All countries have such a problem but it is usually not seen by an outsider. Only movies show us the grim parts of a nation.
Thus if you think this movie is a complete representation of Egypt then you are worng. It's like watching American History X and saying that America is full of Neo and Anti Nazis killing each other.

Just because you are an atheist doesnt make you smarter or more intelligent. I believe in God yet i have a degree. Even Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
It's you who is narow-minded to judge others with beliefs.

Your myopic view comes from the first statement,"Jeeeeez, first thing I have to ask is, why are all the men so fat and unattractive??" If that is the first thing you had to say about the movie then it's hard to take your other statements seriously.

"And also from a secular atheist western point of view the muslim "priest" telling the middle aged man to get another wife is just, quite frankly, weird."
Just to let you know, not every priest follows religion like its supposed to. Some people are priests just for money (by swindling people) or for respect. That's what the movie was trying to show.
Do not let a movie or a person make you judge the rest of the nation or its people in a biased way.

"As an atheist I found the religion all rather baffling and utterly sinister"
:D It's funny how all atheists think this way. Hey, everyone to their own.

"Orwellian mind and spiritual control it exerts on ordinary people. You can clearly see how religion is used by any ruling class to control people"
That again shows how ignorant you are.
Isn't America a religious country with most of its population following one religion or another? But is America dictated through fear of faith? Aren't most western countries following the religion of Christainity? And would you call them ignorant or unintelligent or Orwellian controlled societies?
Most of the muslim countries are similar (with few exceptions like Iran, Egypt, Lebanon). Don't judge us "religious" people with such contempt just becaus you don't agree with us.

Finally about the homophobic thing - religion decries being gay. So it makes sense that being gay is not viewed as normal. Even most western countries have similar problems of accepting homosexualtiy. Only recently have some countries accepted homosexuality but that also with trepidation.
And i don't think all atheists are also open to homosexuality.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

///// If that is the first thing you had to say about the movie then it's hard to take your other statements seriously.

****LOL, so that is why you spend an entire page rabbitting on and on and on!

I don't really care if your egyptian nationalism is offended by my comments or not.

As for Einstein! What is about you religious nuts that you always try and drag the rotting corpse of poor old Einstein in to back up your absurd beliefs in a sky pixie? In point of fact einstein did not believe in a creator skygod and he was not religious.

Religion is many things, over and above being absurd & stupid (and the origin of much if not most evil in the world), it is indeed used by ruling classes to control. If not it is strange how the ethics of religions neatly confirm to the interests of ruling classes.

Odd that, eh???

But more usefully than cruder forms of mind control it makes people control themselves, thinking that an invisible skygod is overseeing all their actions. That is fairly Orwellian to my point of view.

//////Isn't America a religious country with most of its population following one religion or another? But is America dictated through fear of faith? ......... And would you call them ignorant or unintelligent or Orwellian controlled societies?

*****Indeed I would. And yes america is distorted by faith. Before the last US election I watched various poor white trash being interviewed by the BBC and being asked who they would vote for. Most said they were very religious and would vote republican. Now voting republican would be voting against their own economic interests. You can see the orwellian mind control here clearly revealed.

And the US is the most religious of all western countries and, coincidentally, has the worst crime rates, particularly its murder rate of any western country. It has the death penalty. Has appalling medical services for the poorest people. I could go on. And yes I think these faults are largely due to the religious mania of its people.

Europe is the least religious of the Western countries and is far more civilised, having socialised medicine, low murder rates.

The more religious a culture is the more backward and uncivilised it is. When religion runs a civilisation that civilisation is in a dark age. What has islamic "civilisation" produced over the past 1,000 years, apart from giving words to us like jihad or fatwa, words parents use to scare the heebiejeebies out of small kids?

Yet, before the curse of islam and christianity took over the areas of the world like Persia, Egypt, north africa, Greece, these were the fountainheads of creativity, or original thinking, of great discoveries. Now look at them. They are backward and immersed in obscurantism and religions.

I think we would both agree that the islamic world is, in general, far, far more religious than the West or china or japan. Yes? Yet these non-religious societies produce all the new ideas, all the technology and science, all the great literature, films, art, architecture of the modern world.

The backwardness of the islamic world is shown by that UN report of a few years back that explained the backwardness of the islamic world due 1) to its persecution of women, but 2) because of its arrogant and closed minded religious attitude. It gave the example of spain, one small western country, but which translates more books into spanish every year than have been translated into arabic over THE PAST THOUSAND YEARS.

I rest my case.

Good men do good things

Evil men do evil things

But to make a good man commit an evil act you need religion.

I would suggest that you attempt to free your mind of the superstitious nonsense you have been indoctrinated with.

[–] MIFTIKHARAZ 15 years ago

"LOL, so that is why you spend an entire page rabbitting on and on and on!"
:D Point was if you want to put up arguments don't start with how you found the actors very unattractive. Makes you sound very...boorish.

"As for Einstein! What is about you religious nuts that you always try and drag the rotting corpse of poor old Einstein in to back up your absurd beliefs in a sky pixie? In point of fact einstein did not believe in a creator skygod and he was not religious."
Wow i am being labeled a religious nut. LOL. Most of my friends would say that I am far from it. But it does lead to a curious thing of atheist always calling people who believe in God a religious nut even though they are not as extremist as you guys make it seem. Hmmmmm.
I know that Einstein didnt believe in God yet why does he always go into relating science and religion?

"Religion is many things, over and above being absurd & stupid (and the origin of much if not most evil in the world), it is indeed used by ruling classes to control. If not it is strange how the ethics of religions neatly confirm to the interests of ruling classes."
Origin of evil? Wow, mighty words. And is that why WW 1& 2 occurred? Another fact about atheist is that they love creating propaganda and making it seem like all the evil is because or religion. War occurs because of ambition and hatred, vices that ALL humans have (though ambition is good if channeled the right way). Don't let your faulty views judge us "religious freaks".

"But more usefully than cruder forms of mind control it makes people control themselves, thinking that an invisible skygod is overseeing all their actions. That is fairly Orwellian to my point of view."
Mind control? Your propagandic view about us is just hilarious. True that extremist terrorist are led to terrorism by sort of mind control and extreme religious fanaticism but not everyone is so.

And Orwell also wrote Animal Farm (one of the best stories ever written). And by the end of the book the pigs act very much like humans (controlling the other animals and ill treating them). In Animal Farm, religion was banned by the pigs. Also the pigs actually use The Raven and Sugarcandy Mountain to quell any possible uprising (a thoughtful insight). In Animal Farm, Orwell shows us that humanity is a faulty creature not because of religion but because of our inherent vices. And that goes for you too, atheist people.
In 1984 you see a paranoid Orwell (sort of reflecting you guys) where Big Brother is controlling all. 1984 has long past and I don't see any 1984 happening. Definitely you will say that we are being controlled by religious people and being brainwashed by them and only you atheists are the sole saviors of humanity and other such BS.
By the way read this http://www.millennialstar.org/2007/09/19/1984-orwell-and-religion/ and tell me what you think. I didn't read all of it but i thought you might find it interesting to critique and show all the potholes in it. I bet you might even mail the writer and tell him he is being brainwashed.

"ndeed I would. And yes america is distorted by faith. Before the last US election I watched various poor white trash being interviewed by the BBC and being asked who they would vote for. Most said they were very religious and would vote republican. Now voting republican would be voting against their own economic interests. You can see the orwellian mind control here clearly revealed."
You said "poor white trash" and they are religious so they are voting for republican. So your point is that all the ones who voted for Republican are religious and "poor white trash". Nice argument there, pal. Oh and nice way to relate everything to orwellian MC.

"The more religious a culture is the more backward and uncivilised it is. When religion runs a civilisation that civilisation is in a dark age. What has islamic "civilisation" produced over the past 1,000 years, apart from giving words to us like jihad or fatwa, words parents use to scare the heebiejeebies out of small kids?"
The catholic sacredom Pope and his priests lives in Vatican City which is in Europe making Eurpoe the centre for Christian religion.
Your quote for islamic "civilisation" shows that you dont believe muslims have a culture or civilization. Your views sure are apalling in nature as much as they are ignorant. About Islamic science. Ever heard of Ibn Sina. If jihad and fatwa are the only things you hear about Islam then I feel sorry for you. But then again media portrayal of America is that they are all ignorant about other countries and their foreign policy.

"Yet, before the curse of islam and christianity took over the areas of the world like Persia, Egypt, north africa, Greece, these were the fountainheads of creativity, or original thinking, of great discoveries. Now look at them. They are backward and immersed in obscurantism and religions."
So you ae saying that all discoveries made until now are made by atheists? And that not a single person who beleives in God has made any invention? I bet you will have a hgard time proving that.

"Yet these non-religious societies produce all the new ideas, all the technology and science, all the great literature, films, art, architecture of the modern world."
These countries are as equally religious as islamic countries. If you think that all islamic countries have fervent religious beliefs and follow it to death then you are...*rolls eyes*
"Non-religious" societies? And where is that coming from? Far all I know all these great literature, films, art, architecture of the modern world are coming from countries where MOST of the population believes in religion including MOST of their leaders and scientists, artists etc etc.

"The backwardness of the islamic world is shown by that UN report of a few years back that explained the backwardness of the islamic world due 1) to its persecution of women, but 2) because of its arrogant and closed minded religious attitude. "
Since i have gone countless times over about your misunderstood belief of mulsim countries having "arrogant and closed minded religious attitude", let me go to the fact about the other misguided notion of the persecution of women.
First did you know that women always had the right to education as men have in islam. Unlike in the west where women had to fight for the right to have an education. Just like you see a few terrorist as being an example of being a muslim so is your view of a country (like Iran) in its treatment of women judge Islamic treatment of women. If you criticise the fact that women have to wear a scarf over their heads then know that they do so of their free will. Have you been to Jordan, UAE, Syria or any other muslim country like Bangladesh or pakistan. Most of the women don't actually cover their their hair or head. It is their own will to do so if they want. MEdia propaganda made it look like they had to.

I had an uncle who is an atheist. He has two wives. And his son was ashamed of him due to his rants and lunacy. Yet we respected him for his old age. But i don't judge all atheists because of him. Somewhere there should be a resonable atheist.

Thus I rest my case.

Good men do good things

Evil men do evil things

Your next sentence was faulty to the point that it was not worth correcting.

I would suggest that you attempt to free your mind of the ridiculously moronic judgements that you have been indoctrinated with.

Ciao.

[–] Roonil_Wazlib_97 11 years ago

I just wanna point out this tiny thing amidst all of the back and forth that took place here...

If you criticise the fact that women have to wear a scarf over their heads then know that they do so of their free will. MEdia propaganda made it look like they had to.

Muslim women don't wear scarves of their own free will. Their husbands make them. And family pressure. This goes for the vast majority.

Last watched:
Argo (7.5/10)
Sarah's Key (8/10)

[–] foton 10 years ago

@Roonil_Wazlib_97
Yes , It's true and I totally agree .
BTW, I am an Egyptian , Muslim woman in my 30's . I am a teacher in the country as well for 14 years and girls here are forced -literally - to wear head scarvs since the age of 12 , it she refuses, she is punished . and that happens at schools,it's a part of their uniform , in fact that happens in 99% of Egyptian schools , the girl who refuses a head scarf is treated as a "Christian " or a wanna-be whore or dancer , she is scolded by her parents and could be physically beaten . If she still refused the society almost expels her till she abides to its rules or programmed to believe that . In fact a girl usually takes the "Sweet Lime " option and thinks it IS THE RIGHT THING as a Muslim without any further research or opinion.Most of the women who claim that they did it freely are just pleasing people around them or fooling themselves .

[–] rmanory 10 years ago

Hi there. I only saw this movie only recently and I found it very interesting. I think it reflects life in Mubarak's Egypt. I am sure the country is full of positive and honest people, but your counterpart in this discussion only looks at the anti-gay action. The movie is an Egyptian movie, one of the best I have seen, and a gay wealthy person living in a conservative society such as Egypt has difficulties in finding partners, this is not SoHo.
Your discussion partner is a gay activist and a declared atheist, and people who spend their entire life trying to push a certain point would be hard to convince otherwise.

I am not Egyptian, but I don't think the movie depicts Egypt badly. It is a snapshot of a corrupt society, it reflects the difference in attitudes between the have and have-nots (in a sense reminiscent of Charlie Chaplin), and the latter are always the good guys. It deals with the problem of Islamic fundamentalism as well with the issue of multiple wives in Islam, which is there whether you like it or not. In my view the movie is not even anti-gay, it is a reflection of attitudes in the Egyptian society, and shows the hardship of being gay in such a society. But of course I am not a gay activist...
The movie is in a sense anti-Islam, it shows the all-too-known by now of the recruitment methods of Islamic clerics, it is against the Muslim Brotherhood, but also against the cruelty of the security services. In short, the movie does not spare anyone except the have-nots.

[–] Weeoo5 15 years ago

There are many gay people who are religious...u r a freaking idiot!!!....u stupid fag!...i am really sorry if i offended the rest of you with that word, but this person got me soooooo angry...you don't even know how angry i am.
Even though you say that you are not closed minded, but yes you are..just from one movie you're going to conclude that every single kind of middle eastern society is like that?...obviously you're dumb....I love the point where that one person was like other societies don't think that everyone in the U.S. are Neo Nazis just because of the movie "American History X"...I am taking a Middle Eastern History class and you don't know anything..not one thing!!!

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

You're a religious nutjob who simply proves my point

and gays who are religious are rather like turkeys voting for an early christmas

Do you honestly, truly think I care that you are having a little temper tantrum?

Get over it, wanker

[–] Weeoo5 15 years ago

I don't care if you care or not about me getting frustrated with your ignorance...i'm just telling you that you don't even know how wrong you are....why do u think that every single middle eastern society is the same because of one movie?...obviously this movie is just pointing out the bad...every single nation has negative qualities about it....and u need to get over it ya dumb f#ck!!!

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] kholiette-2 15 years ago

This is a very nonconstructive thread.

This movie is discussing problems in Egypt. It is a very well made movie, and the actors even though ugly, did a great job. I bet Hollywood standards do not apply to all cinema industries. So they decided to recruit actors that can act as opposed to eye candy, like the case in many Hollywood movies. I agree with others that this is not an argument at all. If you look at more mainstream Egyptian cinema you will find the eye candy that you seek. That is why an actress like Cathy Bates is undermined in Hollywood, because she doesn't look like Paris Hilton, LOL.

The Egyptian society is a closed society, yahaaaaa what did you expect. As a secular i find it bad honestly (not all secular people are atheists by the way). Discussing homosexuality openly in Egyptian cinema was a benchmark, this never happened before, even though i found the way it was dealt with a bit childish, but still it was a good point.

Also the Muslim priest is an example of the new thought that is spreading around the muslim world due to many aspects that i don't want to get into. The movies discusses taboos and many segments of the Egyptian society which is rich and very diverse.

For an American (or westerner used to Hollywood) it should be viewed as a foreign movie, that holds different cultural aspects. If you enjoy Latin American cinema or eastern European cinema then you might actually enjoy this movie if not then it is not for you stick to too fast too furious ( which i like a lot by the way)

[–] MIFTIKHARAZ 15 years ago

Weeoo5, it is no use arguing with a knuckle head like dharnold-1. Even though he says he is open to understanding others, he is completely biased in his thoughts. I don't think anything else makes sense to him other than his own misconstrued views.

[–] Weeoo5 15 years ago

You know what,MIFTIKHARAZ? You are very correct. Dharnold-1 won't ever get it. I don't know, it's just that I am very passionate about this subject because last semester I took Middle Eastern history and I've learned many things from that class of why many societies in the Middle East are the way they are. Clearly, dharnold-1 has no clue what he/she is talking about.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

well, Weeoo5, "I took Middle Eastern history and I've learned many things from that class of why many societies in the Middle East are the way they are. "

Golly, you took a course on the Middle East! WOW.

Well, let us in on the secret then. WHY are the societies in the Middle East like they are, ie backward, homophobic and hopeless?

Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. From within 1.4 billion Muslims Abdus Salam and Ahmed Zewail are the only two Muslim men who won a Nobel Prize in physics and chemistry (Salam pursued his scientific work in Italy and the UK , Zewail at California Institute of Technology). Dr Salam in his home country is not even considered a Muslim.

Over the past 105 years, 1.4 billion Muslims have produced eight Nobel Laureates while a mere 14 million Jews have produced 167 Nobel Laureates. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims less than 300,000 qualify as 'scientists', and that converts to a ratio of 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The United States of America has 1.1 million scientists (4,099 per million); Japan has 700,000 (5,095 per million). A quick calculation reveals that the likelihood that a Jew wins the Noble Prize is 2088 times higher than a Muslim winning it.

If all the science is in the Quran why is this so?

You see, they're useless.

[–] kholiette-2 15 years ago

OMG, i cant believe you just said that they are useless, you are racist and ignorant. People like you are why we have wars. Grow up and read more about middle eastern /Arab history you will know that many of the foundations of the scientific theories you bragged about were laid by Arab/middle eastern scientists. The Arab world suffered from colonization and exploitation for many years which was a major set back for its development i am not saying that this is a good reason but it is part of the reason. Anyways why should i argue with someone like you, just keep your racist opinions to yourself and the world would be a better place.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

Kholiette-2 - I note with interest you are unable to refute the statistics I give.

And I have read widely about middle-eastern and Arab history, which is why I am so scornful of it.

Tiny Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire muslim world has translated over THE LAST THOUSAND years. (source the United Nations)

The entire muslim mindset is one of closed mindedness and subservience to a non-existent skypixie.

And if we're really going to bandy about colonialism whining, well what about muslim colonialism of the christian countries of the middle east that were conquered by muslim armies (Egypt, and all the countries along the southern shores of the mediterranean)? And Byzantium or Constanstinople? Not to mention repeated attempts to conquer Europe.

The islamic world had shut itself down to new knowledge around about 1100 AD by deliberate choice, so that is some 600 or 700 years before the Europeans started to colonise the decadent muslim countries. You cannot blame colonialism for muslim backwardness and closed-mindedness, they, the muslims, were already locked into decline way before we arrived with superior technology and ideas.

So, no more whining about european colonialism.

Considering that muslms conquered the most advanced countries of the ancient world, like Persia, Egypt, Greece etc etc, what is surprising is not that muslims produced so much of early modern science but the opposite, namely that they produced so little - that is to say islam held and continues to hold, these countries back. Look for an example of what I mean how muslims refuse to accept the facts of evolution simply because it disagrees with their absurd holy book!

Really when you examine the contributions of "islamic civilisations" what you are left with in your hand is sand. The only contribution muslims made was to develop algebra, which I agree was an achievement and has advanced mathematics.

But there's nothing else. Even the much vaunted contribution of "arabic numerals" and the Zero, were in fact stolen from India and Hindu civilisation.

Everything else that muslims brag about inventing were in fact mostly ideas stolen from the ancient greeks and other pre-muslim conquest civilisations.

At best, and I am being generous here, Islam acted as a transmission belt, taking modern numerals and the Zero etc and all the ancient greek geniuses being transmitted to Europe. Islam discovered and invented nothing. And I would say that is because of Islam screwing with the brains of the faithful.

[–] kholiette-2 15 years ago

you are making a very wide generalization here. I am not defending Islam or any religion per se, i am the last person on earth who would do that . However, you are coming out here as someone who read only anti-islam sources without giving other more moderate sources the benefit of the doubt. Medieval Islam was a prosperous and dynamic civilization, and this is not me talking, it is historians whom you could refute if you do not agree with them, but my point is to every opinion there is a counter opinion. Example (not math) are the agricultural and irrigation methods and techniques that were introduced into the western regions of Islam (current Spain)such as dams and water raising mechanisms. The astrolabe, this astronomical instrument, that is of Greek origin, but who developed it ? Muslim scientists. Every culture borrowed from the lands they conquered, you can't say that the Greeks were not great because they borrowed a lot from the Egyptians, or the Romans were not great because they borrowed from the Greeks and so on and so forth.
I can't list all the things that the Muslims invented, my point is you can't just say that a group of people is useless. I mean there are other places in the world that have different cultures and we should respect them, being different does not make you bad or backwards, it makes you different. Western ideas maybe not shared with others. I work in Africa, and here people are very poor and simple, they do not share our point of view on life, does that make them useless because they did not contribute to science or technology.

Besides, why are you asking the Arab/Muslim world to translate books, when their books are not translated in the west. Did you ever think that maybe they too have great writers, or is literature a monopoly of the west?

I think you are being harsh on the people of the middle east. I think we should be more open minded about other cultures and definitely more accepting. Because opinions like yours are not helping at all in bridging the gap, which is something we need to do now. As someone who is a byproduct of both cultures i suggest that you visit an Arab country (excluding saudi arabia) to see how the people are. Do not pass judgments without knowledge and reading sometimes is not enough.

And just to go back on your homophobia point, i have to say that even in the west homophobia is an issue, if you check the boards here on IMDB, you will find a lot of homophobic comments from so called open minded westerners. Go on the boards of controversial movies like Naked lunch or Drive, and read what people say about gay scenes. Lately the state of California banned gay marriage if that is not homophobia i don't know what to call it. There are a lot of puritans around the world in all breeds and kinds i think you should channel your hate to them in general as usually do without naming one group of people.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

Kholiette-2 - you seem like a nice man! (or woman!)

I apologise for being rude to you, if I was. I am used to bashing homophobes and the habit dies hard.

"Besides, why are you asking the Arab/Muslim world to translate books, when their books are not translated in the west. Did you ever think that maybe they too have great writers, or is literature a monopoly of the west? "

I don't deny that the muslim world has probably produced great literature, but since we gays, here in the West, are trying to create a new and gay culture that is unprecedented since the ancient classical world, I have no interest in what, to me, is a culture that was seriously controlled by a religous bigotry and anti-gay attitudes.

As for the translation issue, I fear you have missed the point. The lack of translation of books is not about art and poetry and literature etc, but is about science. The lack of translation of science books by the muslim world indicates a lack of openness to new ideas that is symptomatic of a closed-off culture and, I would argue, provides an explanation, only one, of the backwardness of the entire muslim world.

[–] kholiette-2 15 years ago

I am a woman

I think that you are a nice man too. I understand your struggle as a gay person in a world with a history of segregation against anything that is different. I am a firm believer in gay rights, although i don't like to call them gay rights because gay people are just like everyone else with a different or alternative sexual preference, and this doesn't make them different in any other way therefore they should have all the same rights without discussion. I don't know if i am making myself clear. But inherent religious beliefs and the idiotic cognitive upbringing of human beings which is based on old ideas about what is right and what is wrong makes it sometimes very hard to reason with people (i don't know if i am making any sense LOL) about issues like homosexuality. But i guess one day people will understand that a person's sexual orientation is a given right.

The Arab /Muslim world has a long way to go yet.

Just a small comment about translation, i understand your point now. I don't know if what i will say is related but for educational reasons in the Arab world languages such as English are widely used (it could be a reason) i am not sure i will have to check.

Angel: Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon. Let's get to work.

[–] StrontiumAE 15 years ago

Dharnold-1. Its a movie. Not a documentary. Get over it.

I know one thing baby...you will survive

[–] MIFTIKHARAZ 15 years ago

Dharnold you are just angry and repulsive of cultures that are not open to gays. Makes you sound biased and sour. Openness to gays doesnt make a culture forward, like you are trying to imply. It is a new trend maybe whether it is good or bad (good to you i guess) we'll have to see.

Plus remember, Muslim world is not just the Arab world. India has one of the largest muslim population. And many of the countries in Asia are muslims. Recently someone from Bangladesh (dont remember his name) won the Nobel PEace Prize for his ideas in Micro-financing.

And translation depends on wants of the people. In earlier times arab literature (for example one thousand and one nights) was sought by westerners. That's why they used to be translated. Doesn't mean that their literature is sub par now. Same thing with indian and bengali literature. Rabindranath Tagore won a nobel prize for literature for writing bengali literature. Yet they have rarely been translated to english. It's just that the western people are too engrossed in sub par western literature like Harry potter and Twilight to give a damn about better literary endeavours in other cultures.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

MIFTIKHARAZ -are you being deliberately obtuse???

Because you obviously cannot read I will state it again.

I am not only talking about literature such as Harry Potter et al, I was mainly referring to science papers and all aspects of foreign language works the muslim world fails to translate!

You are aware of how important science is, aren't you?

As I said the entire backward arab world has translated less books into Arabic over the PAST THOUSAND YEARS than Spain translates in one year - every year.

[–] MIFTIKHARAZ 15 years ago

That is because, moron, most arabs put up their papers in english. I have studied in the gulf and everyone here studies in english language. Which is why all their scientific papers are published in english. Now i dont know what they were doing before publishing in english but every culture has smart people. If you think western people are the only smart people then you are the one who is -how to put it- obtuse.

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

NO miftikharaz, I am certainly not saying that westerners are the only smart people. The Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Brazilians, Indians are very bright. They have Nobel Prize winners, not as many as the West, but they do have them.

But Little Izrael with a population of 6 million has more Nobel prize winners than the entire muslim world combined - total population of a billion. That is interesting.

I would say the reason for this is stupidity, because I don't think arabs, persians etc, are stupid, far from it. But I would say that islam has a most detrimental effect on the psyches and intellect of its followers. When muslims are educated to merely rote learn and violence is used against children to force them to rote learn, in an unquestioning fashion, and violence is used to to punish them when they do question the silly koran and other muslim religious texts, then this has the effect of stifling the intellect and the soul.

[–] StrontiumAE 15 years ago

But I would say that islam has a most detrimental effect on the psyches and intellect of its followers. When muslims are educated to merely rote learn and violence is used against children to force them to rote learn, in an unquestioning fashion, and violence is used to to punish them when they do question the silly koran and other muslim religious texts, then this has the effect of stifling the intellect and the soul.

Wow. You are a moran. I had assumed that you were merely trolling for comments judging on the way you opened this thread, clear opting to grab everyones attention by leveling insults at our culture and society... instead of trying to generate a legitimate dialog and discussion, but now I am convinced that you really are not too bright. Sorry.

Clearly you have little or no real knowledge of Islam and Middle Eastern culture as you wouldnt have made the above comment, and made the basis for your critique of Arabs based on what you saw in a silly Egyptian comedy/melodrama. Its like me watching The Final Destination and calling American culture ignorant, pessimistic and backwards.

I know one thing baby...you will survive

[–] dharnold-1 15 years ago

Ah, the truth always hurts, eh?

No answer, like most muslims when presented with the evidence of the cause of their region's backwardness. Entire muslim world has an economy smaller than that of Spain!

[–] StrontiumAE 15 years ago

'Ah, the truth always hurts, eh? '

Wow. Are you like 14?

I know one thing baby...you will survive

[–] g-gawish 13 years ago

//////Entire muslim world has an economy smaller than that of Spain!
Saudi Arabia has a surplus of $ 195 Billion / year, more savings than all europe per year.
Please quit the dumb facts.

[–] g-gawish 13 years ago

hey dharnold, about islam has "detrimental effect on the psyches and intellect of its followers"
Please read the book "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History By Micheal Hart" Stating that Prophet Muhammed pbuh was his choice for no. 1 as he succeeded at all aspects of life (Economic, scientific, military, etc.)

And read about the Abbasid Caliphate and rise of the Ottomon Empire (search wiki), so you may have a better look at the brighter time of Islam, Muslims were the leading nations (In Science & Literature) at both periods am talking about. I mean we don't have much Noble prizes, but thats accountable for the last 100 or 200 years, learn about all the 1400 years of islam first! I bet europe had the time to be at the bottom of the curve through out the ages.

PS Arabs and Muslims are pretty emotional about their religion, so please be delicate about such matters towards us.
Please see these links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid#Science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid#Literature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid#Philosophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid#Technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty#Science_and_medicine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty#Architecture

[–] Roonil_Wazlib_97 11 years ago

The entire muslim mindset is one of closed mindedness and subservience to a non-existent skypixie

You don't know that for sure. It is arrogant to suggest otherwise.

Last watched:
Argo (7.5/10)
Sarah's Key (8/10)

[–] carambaharamba 14 years ago

>>>>>>>Grow up and read more about middle eastern /Arab history you will know that many of the foundations of the scientific theories you bragged about were laid by Arab/middle eastern scientists.

Er, actually, I know most Muslims love to believe the above, but the fact is that these supposedly "Islamic" discoveries were actually Asian (Indian, to be precise) and Greek discoveries that were simply translated by the Muslims, who have for some reason started to take credit for them! Example, the concept of zero came from India, as did the decimal system. These concepts originated in India at a time when non-theistic philosophies like Buddhism, Jainism and Sankhya predominated. These were philosophical systems based on rationality and logical debate. The logic systems that evolved in India at this time were adopted in Greece and through the Greeks, found their way into the Arabic or 'Islamic' world. which promptly proceeded to take credit for them.

I'm totally a third world person and always took the side of Arabs in debates, until I started discovering that many Muslims in the Middle East are completely bigoted about non-Muslim, non-Western cultures and think of them as savages. Now, that's not a good attitude to have about the atheistic cultures whose discoveries brought civilization to the Muslim world.

[–] nancybastawros 14 years ago

I have never felt so strongly as to reply to a post regarding a film before, but yours has actually angered me to such a point that I cannot contain myself.

First of all, how presumptuous of you to think that your neo-liberalist-atheist philosophy is any less controlling than growing up with some kind of religious background. Don't think for a minute that just because you have read a few philosophy books and have "freely chosen" a belief system that suits you that you are any less controlled than the people who actually follow an organized religion. Trust me, you may not be under the control of a sheikh (who by the way is not the same as a priest), bishop, or rabbi, but you are under the control of an ideology just the same. An ideology that is based on disrespecting the beliefs of others and making judgements about the role that religion plays in their lives.

If you were educated at all about the film you were watching you would know that the film is a SOCIAL CRITICISM taken on the Egpytian culture of the 1960's, not present day Egpyt. The 60's were a very critical time in Egypt's history, and perhaps you should do some research into the political environment during that period before jumping to any conclusions about "contemporary honest representations" of Egypt.

And finally, all of the portrayals of homosexuality in the film which you found "vile and offensive" have meant HUGE STRIDES for homosexuals in Egypt. Before the film, homosexuality was a word unspoken in the public sphere for fear of not only ostracism from society, but execution. Very few countries are as accepting of homosexuality as the occident. After the film, a conversation began in which homosexuality was brought to the streets. Without those first films that you cite in the 30's, gays in the west would not be where they are today. This film served as a platform, just as those films did in the past, for the gay community. Now for the first time, at least in Egypt's major cities, there is a such thing as a gay man "coming out", and it is largely due to films like this one.

So perhaps next time before you go throwing words like "sinister" and "evil" to desribe both a religion and a culture you know nothing about, do a bit of research. You may find that you were unable to see past your own prism of Western Spoiled Liberal Atheism.

Yours Truly,
a very disgusted Egyptian

[–] aleksandarsk 14 years ago

Well said nancybastawros. He's not a liberal, he's as closed-minded f*kc as they come. He epitomizes everything people hate about Americans. And a real disgrace to the gay culture he's trying to advocate, who is supposed to embrace diversity and understand differences, natural or cultural.

[–] carambaharamba 14 years ago

I liked the film a lot, and could see how hard it must have been to make a film like that. It's also interesting that the protagonist of the film is more ethical than religious and does not ever speak about "Islam" in any kind of nationalist, chest-thumping sense.

That said, I see dharnold's anguish. Many philosophial systems that people the world over live by, are atheistic but very precious for humanity. Examples: Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism. All atheistic. Not western, not imperialistic, very ancient, but yes, atheistic, and followed by millions. No gay person and no atheist can in any way feel cheered by the prevalence of extremely exclusivist, homophobic and intolerant religions like Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Judaism and to some extent Christianity have gone through a certain secularization where the really religious among them are a fringe element that goes around calling all other religions satanic. But among the Muslims, the intolerance is much more normal and widespread. They really do believe that only People of the Book (the three Abrahamic religions) are actually human and deserve to be treated as equal and allowed their beliefs without trying to conquer them. All other religions are "jahil" ie. 'savage' according to even 'moderate' Muslims.

That's pretty intolerant and racist. So, I think Muslims cannot really accuse others of being bigoted because nobody beats them at bigotry.

[–] sonofindiandelta 13 years ago

Awesome response : ) thnx

[–] luminous-dream 14 years ago

I thought this was a fascinating movie. I'm from the US but currently living in Cairo and actually experience the culture daily. I thought the film perfectly highlighted some of the serious problems that Egyptian society faces. I can most definitely say that there is a Janusesque aspect of society, proclamations of moral superiority with no justification (I've never had so many guys want to talk to me about porn and sex after knowing them for maybe five or ten minutes). That being said, Egyptians are overall, a wonderful group of people.

Dharnold-1, as for the treatment of homosexuality in the movie, I think it is important to understand the film's treatment in respect to Egyptian society. The most damaging thing when trying to understand another culture is to judge the culture by the mores and norms of one's own society. This film is very forward and ground-breaking for Egyptians by simply dealing with the issue. If you want to create change in Egyptian society, be understanding, don't condemn the first steps of progress. Does a karate teacher beat the crap out of beginners, ranting, "How could you be so stupid? Thats not how its done!" Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Instead he teaches them, pushes them, but understanding the individual and nurturing their skills. The all-out offensive is a poor tool when trying to teach.

I actually thought that the film's treatment of homosexuality was positive. I thought Hatem Bey's relationship with Abd Raboh was one of the more real relationships in the film. It was certainly depicted as more caring than the relationship between Azzam and Suad. Hatem's death at the end wasn't an indictment against homosexuality, in my opinion. It wasn't a hate crime, the guy who murdered him was a thief.

As for religion, I've seen plenty of evil and plenty of good from both camps. Religious or not religious, we seem to do an alright job of *beep* the world up.

And pinpointing Islam as the culprit for the region's lack of development in some areas. Well, its simply not true as a general rule. Have you ever had any in-depth experiences in Latin America or interfacing with Latinos? Well, guess what, they share a lot of the same issues. And just like in Latin America, the real issue, I believe, is education. If you want to go for the jugular with something, then do some actual, not just looking up *beep* for 20 minutes on the internet, to see if a correlation between lack of education and Islam (or any religion) exists. And look for both sides, looking for information that supports your own opinion while researching is childish.

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."
For the soul walks upon all paths.
The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.
The soul unfolds itself like a lotus of countless petals.

~Kahlil Gibran, Lebanese/Maronite Author/Poet

Would you limit how you obtain knowledge, now thats simply asinine.

[–] msfnyc 14 years ago

I only half-way agree with this post. I do not think the overall portrayal of the gay character was homophobic, but I do think aspects of it were. He was predatory, but then again weren't most of the men in this movie? This is often used against gays to describe them as sex mad freaks, so this is a more sensitive area when it comes to portraying gays though. I do think that the writer and director of the film, due to Egyptian society, probably had to kill off the gay character. After all, being gay is not really accepted in Egypt, so similar to 1950's films in the U.S. the "bad" person has to die, even if they were pretty good in other ways. Overall I thought it was a pretty good film to show the corruption, etc. Yes, it was showing "bad" aspects of Egyptian society, but why not? I think socially conscious films that point out the ills of society can be beneficial. To the original poster I say I understand where you are coming from, but relax!!!

[–] StrontiumAE 14 years ago

I thought Hatem Bey's relationship with Abd Raboh was one of the more real relationships in the film

Realistic? Really? Ok for dramatic purposes, a young straight married man being seduced into a brief sexual romp with an older gay man after a night of str8 porn and alcohol is plausible, but then for that brief encounter to turn into a full fledge relationship was just silly. I dont think homosexuality actually works like that.

Review AE http://www.reviewae.blogspot.com & http://ireview-ae.blogspot.com

[–] Green_Lump 12 years ago

Jeeeeez, first thing I have to ask is, why are all the men so fat and unattractive??

Haha. That's really stupid, it clearly shows the fat cats (the rich) and the poor, so that really is a biased question, and you whine about homophobia.

Second of all, everybody is so damn slim and attractive on most American films, and when I've been there, fat is everywhere you look.

I'm not following your perspective, I'm not saying American films are not authentic for I watch my good share of them, and I appreciate both the American cinema and culture, oh and people.

I'm just proving to you that it's pretty biased what you asked at the beginning of your post.

- Waffa

[–] nerdy88 12 years ago

Thats exactly what I thought about Americans when I watched movies like Requiem for a Dream or American History X. Say what you want about Egyptians, they dont havent carried out the Holocaust or segregation like you have.