MovieChat Forums > Joyeux Noël (2005) Discussion > Nasty Bishop was not historically accura...

Nasty Bishop was not historically accurate

posted 16 years ago by Polly_Plummer
24 replies | jump to latest

No doubt there were some pro-war religious leaders, but the scene where the Bishop told the Scottish priest he didn't belong in the Church because he had participated in the Christmas truce was ridiculous. Pope Benedict XV, leader of the Catholic church, was very much against the war and had already tried that very autumn to get the fighting governments to agree to an OFFICIAL Christmas truce (they refused). If the movie needed to vilify somebody, shouldn't it be the army leaders who condemned the unofficial ceasefire and ordered Christmas Eve artillery barrages in the following years so spontaneous acts of peace couldn't happen again?

[–] Enigma1625 16 years ago

Historical accuracy is about the last thing in the world this movie is concerned with, so your point, while perhaps correct, is completely irrelevant.

[–] aether_1138 16 years ago

Did you watch the special features? The director says he took the speech directly from a priest's speech in 1915. He even censored a line from the speech because he found it to be to harsh. I don't know why he would lie about what his research showed because regardless of whether it is historically accurate it is still a great movie.

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[–] atik10 16 years ago

..As only 16% of Scots are RC.

[–] murphyclm 16 years ago

Amen, brother. Made me sick to see a Scottish "catholic" priest, what a crock. But right at the start, I could tell this would be another lets-all-get-together-and-love-each-other kind of movie what with the mother and child statue at the beginning. And of course we have to have the xmass-mass and said in latin to boot. Talk about the ultimate in paganism, yuck.

I found "The Long Engagement" to be a far more satisfying World War I movie than this one.

[–] marks1092 16 years ago

Well anyway that religion can be demonized and held responsible for all the wrong in the world--Atheists will do it. I feel sorry for the people who get suckered in by that kind of crap.

[–] atik10 16 years ago

The RC church didn't need any help to create it's bad reputation.

[–] ieuantiriarll-1 16 years ago

So why tell a whopping lie to blacken it further?

[–] atik10 16 years ago

Some movie scene is the least of their worries I'd say.

[–] Julie-30 16 years ago

Because bashing religion is pretty much the only thing left that the politically correct crowd can still bash with impunity.

[–] a-l_carpenter 16 years ago

um... pretty sure that Joyuex Noel wasn't cashing the church, but showing that while some church leaders may be screwy and totally pathetic, a lot of christians are not. Shown by the bishops utter disdain for fraternizers/germans and priests utter love for all soliders and his hate for the war... also i read somewhere that the priest was anglican (church of england rather than catholic... correct me if i'm wrong!)
great movie either/anyway.

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[–] BlaCKhaNd 16 years ago

im pretty sure the bishop was coe (church of england) as his garment was purple which is normally associated with the church of england (they wernt known as anglicans back then if my memory is right) but the mass was said in latin which i thought only the catholic church did ?(but really the germans most likely would of been lutherans or some other protestant creed so dont know how theyd know responses if all churchs didnt do there masses in latin at the time ... but still the structure and responses of a mass change between denominations so dont know how they all were able to follow). there has always been priests who are only in it for the power/influence and the bad bishop should not lead anyone to believe that the entire church (be it coe or rc) was like that.

[–] andrew-jones5 16 years ago

To clear this up!

The scots are catholic western isles men ( evidence the opening credits and church)

the French are of course catholic.

the german officer is from berlin and jewish ,
the german lower ranks are Bavern, southern , and catholic.

the film marker is quite clearly also catholic,

the cat is probably pagan considering animals not having christain souls can't get into heaven.

the nasty churchmen is possibly high church , but possibly catholic but expected to give an eclectic 'Drum head service ' which is cross demoninational, for the odd service at the end.

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[–] joe-armenta 16 years ago

Related anecdote: As a kid in the sixties, I took piano lessons from our neighbor, an old gent who had served in the German Army artillery in WWI.

He told of being astonished, when periodically priests would visit the front, and BLESS THE CANNONS with holy water!

[–] Edmund_Dantes 16 years ago

Did no one in this blog watch the Special: Interview with the director? He documents ALL the things that people have been saying are historically inaccurate, including some in the error section of this movie.

The homily at the end was taken from an actual bishop's homily in 1915, with the question, "Are people who crucify babies, Christians?"

The women in the trenches were also claimed to be historically accurate in that some of the men German or French were from nearby villages and their wives came to them to give them solace.

The Christmas truces occurred not only during Christmas, but also Easter and over a period of several years. It got so bad that the generals ordered Chistmas Eve shelling to prevent this type of thing.

Admittedly the movie makers combined many occurances into one small area and included all three major combantants.

Wikipedia has a good write up on it.

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[–] fountaincap 7 years ago

Because bashing religion is pretty much the only thing left that the politically correct crowd can still bash with impunity.

I'm totally with you here, as a right-wing, former Catholic, atheist who hates political correctness.

But I really didn't take it that way in this film. It wasn't bashing "religion" or Christianity or even Catholicism. After all, wasn't the film celebrating that Christ's birth brought these men together? Instead of the usual religion-bashing, it contrasted two different interpretations of it, personified in the bishop, who twisted his religion into justification for killing and the chaplain who brought Christ's message of peace and goodwill, even towards your enemies.

[–] SealordJohn 16 years ago

I agree with you. Since this was the very first time I saw this movie, I was shocked the way the bishop reprimanded the priest. He did like some people do ... unfairly label everyone of a certain race or nationality for the negative actions of a few.

However, since this was a film and not a documentary, it did not have to be historically accurate.

[–] prenzie-1 16 years ago

Whatever a church itself dictates, there will always be "nasty" clerics who do not follow the spirit or even the letter of those dictates, even if most are nice. To assert that there could never be such a thing as a bad priest strikes me as ridiculous.

[–] lambrettaguy200 16 years ago

Andrew -

The Scots are not Western Isles Catholic men. The Outer Hebrides which are predominantly RC are:- South Uist, Barra and Benbecula - ie, any of the Outer Hebrides South of North Uist. If you look at the real scenery of these parts, it certainly doesn't look as mountainous as shown the start of the film. It looks like the first aerial shots are taken in the Highlands - with the numerous bogs and the cows in the water etc, but to me look more like mainland Argyll, getting on for Ardnamurchan perhaps ?

The aerial shot in the cultivated countryside which shows a cyclist going hell for leather to the church is a completely different location from the one first shown. I cannot be sure where those shots were taken (I even thought somewhere in rural France !) but the two lads most defintely join the Royal Scots Fusiliers (the RSF's bursting grenade badge on the glengarry). Though would be volunteer recruits had a measure of choice as to what regiment they joined, most did the local thing. The RSF's regimental area was Ayrshire and some of the border areas, all in the Scottish Lowlands.

If they had been two proud Highland lads from Uist or Barra, they would not have volunteered for the Lowland RSF's. They would almost have certainly joined the Seaforth Highlanders or the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders or perhaps the Lovat Scouts.

Am I right that the priest volunteered as a private ie non-combatant stretcher-bearer, ie he was not an appointed RC chaplain of the battalion ? (that would have made him an officer).

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[–] fredo70 14 years ago

The Bishop at the end was an Anglican as shown by his dress and his use of english when saying in the name of the Father. He was giving the Catholic priest a dressing down as a member of the military. You must remember Anglicans of that period were very snobby towards Catholics especially those from Celtic backgrounds. Though in reality the priest would have chinned the Bishop.

[–] Eumenides_0 13 years ago

A few people here have shown that the Bishop«s speech was historically accurate. Now for this point:

If the movie needed to vilify somebody, shouldn't it be the army leaders who condemned the unofficial ceasefire and ordered Christmas Eve artillery barrages in the following years so spontaneous acts of peace couldn't happen again?

You should rewatch the movie. It makes a damning criticism of the French Generals and the Kaiser. The soldiers are punished and sent to other fronts. It's all there in the final minutes.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

[–] Jack Doyle 13 years ago

the churches in each of the countries involved were all heavily pro war preaching in its favour, frequently citing the verse from matthew quoted and a similar one from luke.

[–] joe-2797 10 years ago

I think the bishop was Church of England and they toed the line on the war. The Latin mass would have been so that the predominantly Catholic crowd could have a common language with which to UNDERSTAND the mass. They spoke three languages at that service and the Priest would have had to decide how to do the service. The Germans and French there would be heavily Catholic. Latin wava language any people studied then. Catholic mass was in Latin, and in school children would be taught that language then as a second language. Wasn't the bishop played by Ian Richardson?

[–] hitokirikensai 7 years ago

Evangelical Christian and Protestant now feels more brain washing for war than Catholic. I have a few friends who think like that. One of them even said war is important.

Main reason I went back here. I remember this movie and the Bishop scene. It's crazy now that religion can be use boost war support.