Maud v Sue's deception - Fingersmith (2005) Discussion

[–] wieldy 16 years ago

I tend to think more of the book than the mini-series when thinking of Fingersmith (there are some differences in the narrative). But in consideration of the OP's question, I'd say it was Maud's deception surpasses that of Sue's.

Sue never really had a chance against Maud, Gentleman and Mrs Sucksby. Maud had all the advantages, she was intelligent, educated and a little more in control over her life whereas Sue was totally controlled by the Lant Street family.

Their relationship was unequal as well with Maud deliberatly seducing Sue without Sue realising. Despite Sue being the one brought up in a house full of criminals it was Maud who had the much more devious and criminal mind.

Dear Buddha, please send me a pony and a plastic rocket.

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[–] ljr-x25 16 years ago

No I think each was equal in their deceptions,they both could have stopped at anytime but were too scared and influenced by the others.Each was the way they were because of their upbringing and both had their bad points but I think they were the victims.

I'm Bi so what!

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[–] MusicLovePoetry 15 years ago

See that is the thing neither of them really could have because Sue could not be sure Maud's feelings were true, and being in a relationship with a women back in those times were hard, and she always kept her mother in mind, as well she needed the money, she was poor. Maud just needed to be free, and if she stopped, no way she knew for sure Sue's feelings were there as well if either would forgive each other if the feelings were there. There were so many uncertainties if they told and they both had too much too loose. Especially with Gentleman on both sides brainwashing them into deceiving each other.

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[–] ljr-x25 15 years ago

No they could have stopped, but they were scared and in too deep. But whether their feeling were real or not, they could have done the decent thing and not gone through with it. They were both in the wrong for that and as equally guilty, though I do see them as the victims, because they were pushed and manipulated into the plan, but ultimately they did freely choose to betray eachother.

The full of words say, how I want you... How I love you.

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[–] rosthegreat 16 years ago

I don't know that their relationship was unequal, wieldy. Sue and Maud both seemed sure of requited attraction between themselves. Had either woman decided to tell the other of their own plot, both could have escaped together.

Ultimately though, I think both had a choice in the first instance. Neither HAD to choose deception to win their freedom. Maud and Sue are equally deceptive. It's Gentleman who brought it all about - the two women are just pawns in his plan.

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[–] mitoew-1 16 years ago

i have just ordered the book so soon should have it, i can't wait!

i think they both had equally valid reasons for beginning the swindle but i think Sue is the only one that could of stopped it. as far as she knew she was the one in control. Maud gave her the opportunity to confess her love for her the morning after their first sexual encounter; Maud was so distort after Sue left the bed, i think Maud would have told Sue then how she felt but Sue ran. Do you think that is why Maud's eyes are so red and puffy in the next scenes? from crying? or is it that Elaine had a heavy night the night before?

but having said all that Maud too could have confessed that she was deceiving Sue.

and yes Maud did seduce Sue but i don't think a servant could be in the position to initiate anything, which may be a reason why it needed to be Maud to confess.

i'm so in love with Maud!

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[–] rosthegreat 16 years ago

Maybe Sue did run away from Maud after their first night together, but she was both confused about her own feelings and worried about Maud's fate in the plot.

Maud initiated their encounter in the first place - in the book (which is fantastic, i envy you not having read it yet!) it's clearer that Maud consciously thought about how to initiate the liaison. So, even if Sue did have the opportunity to confess her attraction, the fact that Maud decided to bring about their sexual relationship surely puts the onus upon her to admit her feelings to Sue?

'gum would be perfection'

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] mitoew-1 16 years ago

Yeah that's a great point, plus how could a maid, be the one to break the boundaries and admit to her mistress that she loved her.

yes, the onus(sp?) is on Maud, i now think, but i still want her!

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[–] rosthegreat 16 years ago

who doesn't?!

'gum would be perfection'

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[–] stars-fade-into-day 16 years ago

I really think Sue's deception is worse. Maud had the knowledge of Sue's betrayal to justify her own. She was only doing what she thought Sue was all too willing to do to her. She also didn't think Sue loved her, the way she acted was enough to confirm it for her.

Sue's decision to continue to go through with it was motivated by her love for Mrs Sucksby but also because she couldn't see a future with Maud. The thought of people's reactions scared her. Yes she was less educated and grew up with thieves but I don't think her reasons were as justified as Maud's.

That said I think the point is that its hard to know who is more at fault. Ultimately we feel for them both and understand them enough for their betrayals to be forgivable.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] melskyway 16 years ago

it's really difficult to decide whose deception is worse. but the worst one is mrs sucksby, cos she's the one behind the scheme after all. both girls are her pawns to get to the money.

but in the book, there was a dialogue between maud and sue. sue told maud that they could've done something to stop the scheme if maud had told her earlier about everything. but when maud asked sue how much sue would've given up, it hit sue that she couldn't give up anything for maud when sue looks at mrs sucksby, mr ibbs and all her family thieves.

maud kinda knows that sue wouldn't have given up anything for her, so maybe that's why she continues with the scheme.

but having said that, i think in the end, maud is the most lovable character cos she's willing to give up anything for sue - even her own love for sue, by saving sue, by letting sue hates her, by letting sue thinks she's the villain, by letting sue thinks she's the one who hurts sue and not mrs sucksby who had hurt sue the most. how can you not love a person like that???

i started out watching this movie by liking sue, but in the end it's maud who has more impact for me.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] smashford12 16 years ago

I agree with Stars... I think Sue was worse. Sue in her heart knew she was sending Maud to the Madhouse. Since Maud knew of this plan, I believe it did justified her own only b/c Sue was doing the same to her. Maud told Sue multiple times that she didn't love Mr Rivers and that she didn't want to marry him. She put the decision in Sues hands and gave many opportunities to tell her the truth. Sue just couldn't do it.

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[–] melskyway 16 years ago

but in the end, it was maud who touched many hearts by sacrificing her love for sue without sue even realizing it. and she'd wanted to kill maud (but it's understandable). but of cos she realized it in the end, and she went looking for maud. maud is a really deep and complex character.

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[–] mitoew-1 16 years ago

yes but Sue did at one point suggest to Maud that she could say no to Mr Rivers marriage proposal, but Maud rejected the idea so Sue rethought and remembered Mrs Suxsby's words "your mother would've done it".

ahh, it's a bloody good story!

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[–] melskyway 16 years ago

yeah, i've forgotten about that. these two gals have been manipulated and used. btw mitoew-1, i sent u a private msg.

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[–] texanbelle 16 years ago

Sue may have suggested the idea but she did go around and started to spread rumors that Maud was a bit touched in the head and she did lie to the men saying that her mistress was losing her mind.

Honestly...I see both of them as being extremely deceptive towards each other.
Sue could have stopped the whole time...she knew that she was going to send Maud to the asylum and take 3,000 pounds.

Maude...knew that she was going to get 50 percent of her inheritance and she knew that the best way to do this was by sending someone in the asylum in her place.

Both of them were deceived by others and were deceiving themselves and each other at the same time.

So, I can't say that one was more deceptive than the other.

He took down my pants and he started writing the alphabet but he was writing it with his tongue

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[–] Tracyj314 16 years ago

I think it is a tie. I think Sarah Waters made it so deceptive on different levels that is hard to say someone was worse than someone else. At one point I believe Gentleman tells Maud that the only thing people desire beyond love is money and greed, and I think the betrayal both women experience only to still end up together confirms that he is wrong, and love truly does rule over all.

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[–] GemaMelnicenko 16 years ago

i'm gonna filp back and forward from book to film,

Maud is the more deceptive but i think it was in an innocent way,

wait lemmie explain...

Maud was very happy in the asylum being brought up by the nurses she states in the book that she hated to leave and also it is shown the the film, at briar she was terribly unhappy and when Rivers tells her of his plan she actually laughs (in the book) that Sue was on the other side of the door, its stated that all she thinks about is Sues grubby fingers touching her stuff, the stuff she plans to take from her, but also in the book as the story unfolds maud mentions a few times that she wanted to tell sue of the plan but it isnt put in the adaptation she 'was' planning to tell sue the morning after she so rightly seduced her. as stated by the end of the book...

'You knew it all,' I said. That's the first thing I thought. 'You said that you knew nothing, when all the time—'
'I did know nothing,' she said.
'You knew it all! You made me kiss you. You made me want to kiss you again! When all the time, you had been coming here and—'
My voice broke off.

But felt that Sue was ashamed of the encounter and tat her feelings were part of the trap that stopped her from telling Sue the truth as the thought of being hung stopped Sue from doing the same also,

the innocence i feel was in the fact that mabye maud though that the asylum wasn't such a hard place as she had once been happy within one, and so to get her freedom and her money why not put sue there..

but when you look again at the end of the film/book Maud only really thinks of Sue and escaping to find her,

yes sue was street wise but at the same time she was the pigion (also sated in the book) Mrs Sucksby kept her close and the other members around her could read even if it was just a little, I think Sues fate was never her own from the moment she was named

Elaine Cassidys view on Maud Lilly for anyone who hasnt seen it:

"I would not want to hang around with Maud – she's an evil, twisted little..."

Elaine Cassidy stops herself just in time, her Irish eyes smiling to belie the force of her words.

"I couldn't wait to get rid of her," laughs the actor who had to play the scheming heiress, stressing: "I love her but I can't – bloody – stand – her!"

Link to the full interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/03_march/18/fingersmith_cassidy.shtml

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[–] ljr-x25 16 years ago

Maud ultimately may have been the most deceptive but neither were innocent of lies and both where victims of manipulation of the others.I don't see one worst or better than the other.

The full of words say,how I want you...How I love you.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] gloria_michaelidou 13 years ago

GemMelinsenco, when you mentioned the Elaine's view on Maud, it makes me wonder why Elaine couldn't wait to get rid of Maud and what she meant by saying that she couldn't stand her. Any thoughts? :)

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[–] book_1958 13 years ago

Forgive me if I'm repeating something someone else said, as I don't have time to read through every post right now. These are my thoughts on the question of whose deception is worse.

Yes, Maud may have had advantages over Sue, but I also think that Maud was completely at a disadvantage because she wasn't ever free, and that was all she wanted. She was taken in by "Gentleman" because she truly felt she had no other way to escape. And as we saw in the later scenes, she DID feel bad about what they were doing to Sue, and she told "Gentleman" that, and she wanted to back out, but then she continued with it because she really thought that Sue was just acting...that her feelings for Maud were fake & only a way to try and get close to her and fool her and carry out what she thought was hers & "Gentleman"'s plan to dupe Maud. In that one scene, I think it was Sue that said, if she had just said "I love you" then, to Maud, everything would have been different. But she didn't, and all along, Sue really did think that it would be Maud going to the asylum. Yes, Maud deceived her, and she didn't know Maud wasn't all innocent & sweet, like she appeared, but the whole time, Sue knew what was going to happen, and while she supposedly loved Maud, and I know she did, still, she was going to let her go to the madhouse. Even when they took her, she kept saying, "No, it's her, not me."

I think their deception and what they did to each other was equal, really, and I think they each hardened themselves against each other, thinking that their apparent feelings for each other before had just been part of the ruse. And that's how they could justify what they were doing or had done.

And Maud DID plan to go and find Sue and get her out and was horrified at what she had done to her.

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[–] MusicLovePoetry 15 years ago

I agree

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[–] justagirl_17 15 years ago

For me it's Sue. If I look at it at the simplest level Sue would have betrayed an innocent woman while Maud betrayed Sue knowing she was there to betray here.

And Sue had no reason to assume Maud feeling would be anything but genuine and Maud is afraid its part of the scheme.

Omnes una manet nox et calcanda semel via leti

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[–] hunozthtiluvu 13 years ago

I don't think any of them worse than one another. They all have doses of niceness in them albeit their deceptions.

Mrs. Sucksby did it for the love of her dear daughter Maud.
Sue did it for escaping poverty and for the love for Mrs. Sucksby.
Maud did it for the love for freedom.

However, Gentleman is the one who did it out of pure greed and vileness.

I don't intend to be offensive, but I have to defend my opinions.

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[–] MITBeaver 13 years ago

I think they are both guilty for agreeing to take part in the scheme, but both vindicated to a large degree by the circumstances. I think Sue's financial motive seems worse than Maud's desire for freedom, but once things are in motion neither is in a good position to reveal the truth.

At various points in the book and the movie (can't remember which is which sometimes), it's clear they both go through a lot of doubts and would have confessed if they thought the other would still love them in spite of the truth. Sue thinks Maud is pure and good and would reject her if she reveals that she is a fingersmith there to help steal her fortune. Meanwhile Maud thinks Sue would not love her if she knew of her badness -- the salacious books, the feigned ignorance of sex, seduction, and the plot to have Sue committed. Gentleman reinforces these doubts on both sides. So, yes, both have their original motives helping keep them in line with the plan, but what really keeps them from throwing the deception is the belief that the other would never want to be with them if the truth were revealed.

My first gut reaction was that Maud was more guilty because she had so much more knowledge, but their self-doubt is really pretty similar. What seems more likely, that (from Maud's point of view) a fingersmith would love a writer of erotic fiction or that (from Sue's point of view) a proper lady would love a fingersmith? Obviously, the mental leap of faith is smaller for Maud. But her shame and self-loathing is still profound. Even after the major details of the betrayal have been revealed, Maud still expects that Sue will hate her at the end when she reveals the truth of her pornographic indoctrination. ('You don't know me at all... [erotica reading...] I know you must ha-hate me.')

Incomplete knowledge on both sides is what makes this plot compelling. Neither is wholly blameless or to blame.

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