better trainer


Whose the better trainer, Cesar or Victoria?

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Each one of them has their own style, but I don’t think Victoria could handle the tough cases. Especially a case like Scott Lincoln’s Jindo named Jonbee.

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[deleted]

Victoria who?

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Victoria Stilwell, It's Me or The Dog-show.

Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole (Roger Caras)

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I want to go after victoria with a can opener. She annoys me more than a 10' pile pf pekinese.



"Happiness is a warm gun." The Beatles
"No touching guns." River ~ Firefly

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My thoughts exactly

Victoria may not be all that bad, but I hate the stupid "dominatrix" beginning of the show (at least in the episodes that I've seen). The black boots and the make up and the whip (only decoration, never used) and everything. You don't have to look like you own a S/M studio to handle difficult dogs, you know.

My vote goes to Cesar. And one more thing that is different between them: Cesar is always nice and diplomatic with the people. He gives them credit for the little things that they have done right. Victoria can be very mean sometimes and has poked some owners until they cried. I don't think deliberate humiliation and cruel words are the right way to approach the problem.

Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole (Roger Caras)

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I would rather have a 10' pile of Pekes than Chihuahuas. At least with the Pekes you could make mittens.

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I actually like them both and have learned things from both shows. They have different approaches but have things that are similar about them. I agree Victoria does not mollycoddle the owners she really lets them have it quite bluntly. While Cesar more will talk to them like they are a young child even if they aren’t getting what he says.

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Cesar all the way for me. I just love his smile, kind eyes, warm personality and sense of humour. I melt every time I watch the show. Illusion is one lucky lady!! And he has a way with dogs I have never seen before. It's like he has a telepathic connection with them and knows how to handle ANY situation. However, I could only suffer Victoria for about ten-minutes before changing channel. It was the one with Peanut (?) and she could hardly get the dog to pay attention to her and was forever giving the dog treats. Cesar can get a dog to focus on him almost straight away through energy alone. He does NOT rely solely on food. Her show has not become an international super-hit like TDW because her techniques don't get the same results as Cesar's and she doesn't have a natural flair with people. Whilst I do not own a dog, I have tried some of Cesar's tips with a friend's Westie and they worked!! She used to pull on the lead all the time and want to go sniff everything, but now she follows me and will only have a sniff about on my terms. I can also claim things (like toys and furniture) a lot more easily. Before it would be a case of me lifting her off a chair or yanking a toy out her mouth. Cesar definitely gets two thumbs up from me!!

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actually I hadn't watched much of either before my last post and I have to say Victoria is the better trainer. part of dog training is people training and not everyone can do what cesar can do. and to address the last poster about vicoria... her show IS an international hit. she started in britian and has since done episodes from the US... that is international. just because cesar goes back to mexico that doesn't make him more international than victoria... and I quite like her dominatrix thing. she can down-stay me anytime.



"Happiness is a warm gun." The Beatles
"No touching guns." River ~ Firefly

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Cesar IS a heck of a lot more popular than Victoria. His show is broadcast in countless countries and has even been nominated for an EMMY!! Here in Britain, his series is given at least twenty-four hours of airplay each week!! He travels the length and breadth of the US (covering thousands of miles each season), has been in Australia giving seminars and helping Aussie owners, plus there is talk about him coming to Britain (not bad for someone who only goes to Mexico). He has saved hundreds (if not thousands) of dogs from certain death, and he has changed the attitudes of many regarding Pit Bulls and other "dangerous" breeds. I was watching Psych (a global hit) last week and TDW was mentioned by the lead character, and I have heard it being referred to on other big shows. Can Victoria claim the same? The only reason I became aware of her was during a flick through the listings. I asked some friends (who own dogs) if they had heard of her and they hadn't. They did however know of Cesar and agreed that his techniques make a lot of sense. You are right, part of dog training is people training. And Cesar just has a wonderful way with people. He knows how to put people at ease and make them feel good about themselves. Victoria and the guy who did At the End of My Leash do NOT have the same people skills and thus, do NOT get the same results as Cesar. Owners (if they put their minds to it) can do what Cesar does. It's not exactly rocket science. Children can even pick-up his techniques.

Hail Cesar!!

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allright... take a deep breath. try maybe a little less caffeine in your diet. I was just saying that I prefer Victoria. I wasn't aware that Cesar went anywhere but Mexico... if he does, great. Just because more people know his name doesn't make him a better trainer... it just makes him a better advertiser. There are many great dog trainers out there who don't have a PR machine behind them too. Ever heard of Ian Dunbar? He's basically the father of modern dog training. Cesar is not the only or even the original dog whisperer either... just the most famous. Sure he does some good stuff, not gonna take that away from him, but he's not the god of dog training nor is he perfect. and if you have a well behaved dog, Cesars techniques should not be a problem, if you have a problem dog DO NOT TRY HIS TECHNIQUES by yourself. There is a disclaimer all through the show telling you this. Also if you'll notice, Cesar does get bitten quite often so you need to be careful.

Also, this was a discussion about who's the better trainer not who's more popular... I thought I got away from that when I graduated high school. Cesar admits that he is not a dog trainer, he says he's a behaviorist.



"Happiness is a warm gun." The Beatles
"No touching guns." River ~ Firefly

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I do realize this is a topic about who is the better trainer, but have you thought about why Cesar is as popular? It is because he is about the best you can get. The more skilled you are at something, the more in demand your services will be. Period. He was even a much sought after go-to-guy well before his show went on the air. As I've already said, Cesar's people skills are second to none. He can read a person every bit as well as he can a dog and has even moved people to tears with his words of wisdom. His results are more or less instantaneous. Sure some dogs take longer which is why he takes them to his psychology centre. Then it usually only takes a few weeks for them to be rehabilitated. Cesar has admitted there have been cases he has not been able to rehabilitate, but you can count those on one hand. I acknowledge there are disclaimers, but they're not much of a deterrent. You hear people on the show saying they've tried his methods (with varying degrees of success), but the show needs to protect itself against lawsuits - hence the disclaimers. Cesar does say himself to call in a professional (which is probably what he has been made to say), but he also says "professionals" can have a detrimental affect on your dog/s. Cesar has been called in to resolve many problems caused by "professional" trainers. Like the couple who sent their two pit bulls to a trainer and they came back worse than ever. It took Cesar something like a couple of months to restore balance between the two of them.

I have tried to give Victoria another chance by watching a couple of full episodes, but she does NOT get the same results as Cesar. Everything I saw her accomplish was with food and more for the benefit of the owners than the dogs. Cesar says methods like hers is human psychology applied to a dog. All I heard from her was sit, stay, heel and place. Basic dog training in other words. I never heard her address important DOG issues like claiming, submitting, walking, eye contact, body language, being a pack leader, etc. I also saw her do something which completely defeated the purpose of one of her exercises. It was when a dog (Luca) became extremely possessive of the lids he liked to lick. Instead of claiming the lids as hers and making the dog back-off, all Victoria did was "trade" one for another. What on earth?? That was purely a method for the owner NOT the dog. All the dog learned from that was he would keep on getting more food. In the wild, he would have been made to back away and submit by the pack leader. Which is exactly what Cesar would have done. Trading is a human trait and not natural dog behaviour.

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I actually came across more against Cesar than I meant to. We do agree on some things, but not all. He has great techniques with dogs but he will be the first one to tell you that he's not a dog trainer... he trains people... lol. I don't think he's the end all be all of dog behaviorists though.
as for victoria; I've seen her address a full range of problems and she has great techniques also. She does use food... but if you watch Cesar will too... and she stresses that the food is just a tool that will be phased out later. She does understand DOG psychology and uses it. Of course you see her work with the training basics... this is the basis for dog training. Once you start training your dog the two of you have a common language. She uses body language all the time and stresses exercise as rule number one. In the episode with Luca that you reference; she taught the dog to trade first for food, then for an acceptable toy... did you miss the part where she moved the dog on to the toy? This was not a method "for the owner" any more than for the dog. In the wild he would have not had lids in the first place... and his order in the pack hierarchy would have been set early on and would volunarilly submit to the pack leader. Don't think trading is a dog behavior? Why do you think a dog obeys you? he's trading something you want... such as sitting... for something he wants... such as attention. Cesar would have approached the problem very closely to what victoria did, because if you challenged him for the lid you would be egging him on to be violent.
I think you need to watch both shows with a more open mind, because these two are more similar than they are different.

"Happiness is a warm gun." The Beatles
"No touching guns." River ~ Firefly

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Cesar might use food too, but how often does he actually give it to a dog? Hardly ever is the answer. What he usually does with the food is uses its scent to get the dogs' brains moving forward. He is careful to say to NEVER feed the dog BEFORE he/she is in a calm submissive state. Other times he uses food is to resolve the problem of food aggressive dogs. Just watch him - he presents the dog with the food, but makes him or her back off and give him space. You don't often see him giving those dogs the food either. With Victoria, it is treat, treat, treat, treat ALL the time. She uses food to reward the dog, to distract the dog and to make strangers more appealing to the dog (instead of having them use the no touch, no talk, no eye contact rule). In addition to all that food, she uses baby gates, clickers, whistles, loud speakers and goodness knows what else. Cesar uses his energy, body language, a 35-cent leash and the occasional tool such as a tennis racket or a piece of wood to block a bite. Twice I have seen him use an electric collar, but they were times when it would have been impossible for him to correct the dogs. Like the dog who chased and tried to bite tyres. Cesar (despite his swiftness) isn't that fast. Until I see an episode of IMOTD, when Victoria NEVER uses a treat, a clicker or any of her other gadgets to achieve her goals, I will continue to favour Cesar's techniques. People are amazed on the show when a dog behaves, but that doesn't come as a big surprise when the dog has learned he'll get food for good behaviour. It is like telling a child he will get a chocolate bar if he does his homework. It is a whole different ballgame when you get the same child to do his homework out of respect to you. NOT because he sees you as a source of treats. When I eventually get my own dog, I would sure as heck want him paying full attention to me as a pack leader, not as someone who bears food. I also believe you have twisted my words as to regards trading. What I was getting at is that in the wild, Luca would NOT have been given another piece of food in exchange for the food the pack leader wanted. He'd be put in his place and made to wait his turn or to find his food. A dog should NOT obey you for food or attention. He should because you are the pack leader. Trading does not enter the equation.

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WOW!!! I thought I had seen it all from Victoria, but a couple of episodes I saw recently really made me laugh. Victoria (to resolve the problem of a dog who ran-off) made the dog's owner lie down and play dead, in the hopes the dog might come back to investigate what was wrong. Another was when she made the owner of a highly excitable dog, turn her back on him, so he would ignore her. Didn't you know that was a sign of submission, Victoria? Oh, and I heard about the one where she wanted to get the attention of a nervous dog. Know what she did? Clanged a couple of pots together!! You couldn't make it up!!

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I am now well and truly finished with Victoria. The episode I saw today absolutely disgusted me. She was called in to help a family with their two-spaniels. Neither had received any kind of discipline or leadership, and had aggressive/dominant behavioral issues. Their food aggression was tackled in Victoria's usual manner (giving them treats if they left the food alone instead of claiming the existing food as her own), at the families meal time, she attempted to have the dogs stay on their mat, but it didn't work. One of them actually got worse and they eventually had to lock him in another room. The same dog (Benji) had already bitten one of their young daughters when she went to get food the dog wanted, but during the episode's filming, he attacked their other daughter (who had to receive emergency treatment). They built it up, so you thought she had been savagely attacked, but when you saw her, she had two or three puncture wounds and some bruising on her legs. Not exactly what I'd call serious as I've seen a lot worse. I'm not saying it wasn't a nasty thing to happen to the girl and I'm sorry she was bitten. However, you would have definitely classified the dog as a red zone case. Anyway, the mother said straight away she wanted Benji put down as the attack was unprovoked. What I'd like to know is how she determined that the attack wasn't provoked. Was the child being supervised with the dog? Did the girl do anything the dog might have perceived as a threat? Did she touch him the wrong way? Or wasn't the dog's previous aggression a tell tale sign that he might do it again. In which case they should have been a lot more careful when the dog was around their children. They called Victoria for advice (to either have the dog re-homed or put to sleep) and she said the dog couldn't be re-homed, must have some neurological condition, and should be put down. Did she advise them to have the dog vetted to find out if it was a neurological problem? No. Did she have any further contact with the dog? No. Did she recommend another trainer who specialized in red zone cases? No. Did she suggest an autopsy to determine if there was something wrong with the dog? No. Mind you that might have made her subject of a lawsuit, and she could have lost all credibility if they didn't find anything. Victoria was well out of her depth and offered the quickest and easiest solution. If she had made the family assert themselves as pack leaders, taught them how to read a dog, and made them use the exercise, discipline, then affection rule, the attack might not have happened and the dog could still be alive.

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I know Cesar says dogs are not expendable. And I'm not a euthanasiaist. But look, if a dog attacked my child, that would be the last thing it ever did.

Dogs ARE expendable. Tens of thousands of them are euthanized every year, most because they are simply unwanted, not because there's anything wrong with them.

Attacking family members = SOMETHING WRONG. Attacks your child, and you're going to say "c'mon boy let's go for walkies and not do that again"? You can't give it to someone, it would attack THEM or their family. Kill the damn thing, and go save another dog there is NOT anything wrong with, that was going to be killed because the pound ran out of room.

I mean, you can only practically take this bleeding-heart nonsense so far.

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No - dogs are NOT expendable. They have as much right to be on this planet as you or I do. Cesar has successfully rehabilitated thousands of red zone dogs, many of them after attacking family members. I have seen countless episodes in which dogs have sent their owners to the emergency room. And guess what? By using his methods, they become calm submissive dogs time after time, after time. There is no need whatsoever to kill them. The reason so many of them are in shelters is because of people (like you) thinking they are disposable. How would you like it if some higher extra-terrestrial being were to come down, claim you as a pet and discard/kill you because you acted out of turn? Additionally, have you ever thought for one second that when a dog attacks a child, the latter might actually be to blame? Children go up to dogs, tug on their ears, pull their tails, touch their genitals, and put their hands inside their mouths. I really couldn't blame a dog for objecting to such things. A child doesn't necessarily have to touch a dog to instigate an attack either. Running around, shrieking and invading a dog's personal space can make a dog want to put a child in their place through a bite or something else you might regard as an attack. Children should be educated about dog behaviour and how to act properly around them. Even if there isn't a dog in the family, there is always a chance of encountering one outside. Things like not approaching a strange dog, to give them their space, not to stare at them, and to stop/get off their skateboards/bikes or whatever if a dog is coming in the opposite direction. There are many ways non-owners can make a difference. This sadly does not happen. I once heard a man telling his daughter (who was about eight) that you can always tell a dog is friendly if he is wagging his tail. I tried telling him politely that isn't always the case as a wagging tail can also indicate nervousness and aggression. He wasn't amused. Unfortunately dogs will always pay the ultimate price for human ignorance. Within a family it is vitally important to set rules, boundaries and limitations. Also, by putting the child higher in the hierarchical order will more or less safeguard against any attack. I never saw Victoria address any of those things. All she did was spout her usual positive reinforcement clap-trap, and use food to achieve a behavioural response. When challenged with a more severe red zone case like Benji, those methods were useless. Cesar would have done his damnedest to rehabilitate the dog. He would have no doubt succeeded too.

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"People like me"? Humph. Only people like you say "people like you" without the foggiest notion what I'm "like". I have never put an animal to death unless it was suffering unrecoverably.

What I said was, if a dog attacked my child, it would be the last thing it ever did. You would blame your own child? Well, that's "people like you". Free country, blahblahblah.

There are only so many Cesars to go around. There are a lot more incorrigible dogs. Therefore, either the excess incorrigible dogs get euthanized, or they go on attacking family members. I find the former preferable, especially if it came to MY family.

No organism has an inalienable right to life on earth. They all must earn their positions in the chain of survival. Dogs serve no purpose other than companion animals. If they are not suitable companions, they serve no purpose at all. Sure, if you've got a Cesar in your town, rehab the animal if you can. If you think you can trust its intent after it attacked your child--no matter what your child did short of deliberately torturing the animal. In which latter case, rehab the child and yourself for rearing it so poorly.

There is no such thing as a 100% domesticated animal. Jails are full of humans who are not domesticated. We even euthanize some of those.

Much as your heart bleeds, I bet your laundry bills are astronomical.

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Dogs serve no purpose other than companion animals. If they are not suitable companions, they serve no purpose at all.


What utter ignorance. I come from a country where primary produce is the backbone of our economy. Without dogs, farmers would have to use a dozen men to replace each of his dogs. If I'm ever lost in the mountains or in snow it will be a trained dog who finds me. In buildings within 100M of the one I work in, I know of four guide dogs for blind employees. No purpose other than companions, you say - lmao! You MUST have heard of working dogs, surely? You can't be that isolated or insulated from real life.

Our farmers' sheep dogs and our wild game hunters' hunting dogs are definitely not companion animals. They never go inside the owner's house, they're not petted or mollycoddled. They're trained and socialised so they're safe to mix with people and other dogs, but they earn their right to life every day through hard work - certainly harder than any companion animal is expected to do, and often involving 8-10 hours of hill country running over vast distances rounding up sheep or cattle in extreme conditions.



Sometimes your knight in shining armour is just a retard in tinfoil

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Dang right and don't let Victoria run out of chicken, the dog will eat her alive!
Hummm....maybe she owns a chicken farm!

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[deleted]

If I were a dog I'd prefer Cesar. Victoria would drive me up the wall. I'd bite her just to put her in her place.

_______________________
It's twue! It's twue!

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Victoria Stilwell, hands down.

Better still are Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, Karen Overall and the late Barbara Woodhouse, but you won't find any of those people parading themselves on prime-time TV because they're actually very serious about dog welfare, health and training.

Milan is no more than an actor with flashy teeth; a redneck who pushes his unfounded, uneducated theories on those who know even less than he does. He's a thug to dogs.




Sometimes your knight in shining armour is just a retard in tinfoil

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The only people who dislike Millian, much more consider Stilwell better, are just a bunch sensitive women who are likely also against spanking their kids in the butt because they think it's child abuse --which has resulted into spoiled jack ass kids.

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Milan has no science, no education, no qualifications in the field. All he has is his way which can't be replicated by anyone else, and a lot of it relies on brute force.

I've seen him dangle a heavy English Bulldog by the neck to put it in a 'calm space'. This is something that's not transferable or applicable to all breeds or people. I'd love to see him dangle a 200lb mastiff by the neck to 'calm' it. Methods like that can't be used by anyone who's less physical than he is - for instance a petite 100lb female owner of a Malamute - how's she going to dangle a heavy dog by the neck?

If the methods can't be applied by everyone across every breed then they are no good, plain and simple. If the facts don't fit/prove the hypothesis, then you need a new hypothesis.

Those who believe in or follow Milan's methods are always and invariably those who are ignorant of the safer, saner, more effective training methods, and they invariably are happy in their ignorance.

If you have to use force on either a child or a dog you are already a loser, and if you show no inclination to change or learn then you have no right managing either a dog or a child.



Quick, play dead.

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Hail to Cesar!

I know you posted this long ago but my answer is Cesar. My brother had this dog that used to run away a lot as a puppy. His favorite time was at 8 am in the morning. Traffic was awesome by the way,close to the 2 freeways. I remember taking care of the dog once. I was flipping through the channel and saw Cesar. It happened to be an episode of a dog that was a run away. After watching the show, I tried the same thing. I made sure the dog had a leash on of course. That same day the dog stopped running away. If it wasn't for Cesar that dog would not be turning 6th birthday in a couple of weeks. I can't imagine what his future would have been like if he still did this. By the way, that dog is mine now along with 3 others.

I watched Victoria once to see what the fuss was about. The only thing I learned from her was to give "paw" and "bow".

My sister's friend had asked me if I knew about Cesar. He had just found out about him. Of course I knew about him. I even met him. He thought that was the awesome and it is because he is. Cesar is a very warm and hilarious person.

Frasier: Ah yes, Sheldon. That troubled little fellow who kept wetting
your bed!

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I wonder if you asked this on the board for Victoria's show, if the answers would be different ;)

and I vote for Victoria, at least she never put a buzzbox on a dog (and the few people she has helped who were using one, or something like it, the first thing she does is throw them out and lecture them about how cruel they are...I think everyone who wants to use one should first put it around their neck, not their wrist, their neck and activate it, see how they like it)...and that little twitch (on the out-of-control bulldog at the cafe) the dog did wasn't surprise, it was her being mildly ELECTROCUTED! if I had been a customer there, I would have called the authorities and never eaten there again, and told all my friends to boycott it as well; also, earlier, in the home, when he pushed her down as she was running around and she hit that black metal gate hard enough to make a loud sound and then pushed her down, I would have thrown him out of my house if he'd done that to my dog (though, to be fair, I never would have hired him in the first place)

IMO, Cesar's methods aren't training, they border on abuse masquerading as 'dominance training'...have any of you seen the episode of Victoria's show where she had to help a couple who had attempted to use these types of techniques (pushing and holding the dog down)? as another poster on another thread pointed out happened with their dog, all they got was a more aggressive and messed up dog

let the flaming begin...

and for the record, I don't usually watch this show, I only watched this one because it had a German Shepherd Dog, one of my favorite breeds

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[deleted]

I think she is the better trainer. He has never had any formal training lessons and relies on instinct. She appears to have been professionally trained and it shows.

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