MovieChat Forums > The Last Casino (2004) Discussion > Canadian so-called cinema

Canadian so-called cinema

posted 18 years ago by chefmoviebuff
32 replies | jump to latest

Canadian film is an odd bird, isn't it? Why is Canadian cinema so lame? As a country we export musicians, writers, composers, actors at an enormous rate, yet we can't export a decent flick. If anybody knows the greatest box office hit made by Canadians in Canada with Canadian money, let me know. For the life of me, I can't think any. I mean, are Cronenberg's films in this category? Are any of Egoyan's films box office hits? Hell, do we consider Jewison's films to be Canadian because the director happens to be Canadian?

Films like The Last Casino is simply the reminder that Canadians can't keep up to American cinema because of money. I refuse to think that this country lacks the talent: it just happens all the good talent run south of the border. Paul Haggis for instance.

I know that American cinema produces a ton of crap far worse than The Last Casino (it wasn't THAT bad anyways), but we just can't seem to get a string of solid films.

[–] csstrowbridge 18 years ago

"If anybody knows the greatest box office hit made by Canadians in Canada with Canadian money, let me know."

As far as I know, it's Porky's.

[–] soulflyfan 18 years ago

foolproof was good

pantera

[–] csstrowbridge 18 years ago

That was an excellent movie. Have it on DVD.

BTW, that film set the record for most expensive ad campaign ever for a Canadian move at just $2 million, which even if you take into consideration the relative sizes of the two countries is nothing compared to the average hollywood film.

[–] Five-Leaves_Left 17 years ago

This wasn't a movie per se, it was as TV Movie, and the advertising budget for TV Movies is miniscule; principally because they don't seen any return in big advertising for a 'captive audience'.

In short, they spent nowhere near $2 million.

[–] csstrowbridge 17 years ago

The P&A budget was reported at $2 million and $8 million on the movie itself.

[–] Five-Leaves_Left 17 years ago

According to Cristal Films the budget was $5 million CAD sans P&A which never runs more than 20% of all but the most ambitious Hollywood projects.

At the most you're looking at $1 million CAD, which, in itself, is very top heavy for any kind of TVM.

I'll look up th exact figure I have and post it soon as . . .

[–] csstrowbridge 17 years ago

"P&A which never runs more than 20% of all but the most ambitious Hollywood projects."

This is not true. Average cost for a Hollywood movie is just over $100 million with the production costs counting for $60 - $70 million and the P&A counting for $30 to $35 million. This is from the MPAA directly.

Looking at the size of the two markets, Foolproof should have spent about $4 million on P&A. Going by the production budget, it would have been wise to spend $3 million.

[–] Five-Leaves_Left 17 years ago

We are talking at cross purposes here.

1. P&A is always proportional to the budget of the movie. Forget all about averages, because that takes account of all the blockbusters which cost in the region of $100 milion plus to produce.
To say differently is to imagine that, for instance, we see a $1 million movie and automatically assume they spent $100 million on P&A - that is not only impossible, but ludicrous.

2. P&A for Movies is an entirely different animal to P&A for TV, or TVM.

2a. P&A for Movies is, as you imply, dependant on the marketplace, but also projected audience share at the box office, and subsequent box office returns; but is inextricably linked to the original budget for the reasons initially touched upon. From these projections the budget for P&A is decided.

3. P&A is NOT counted as part and parcel of the production budget; if the MPAA imply this then they are not only misguided, but as wrong as can be.

3a. If you were in the business you would know P&A is down to the Distributors, NOT the production company, irrespective of whether they fall within the same overall company.

4. P&A for TV, and obviously TV Movies, which The Last Casino is, has nothing whatsoever to do with either production, nor distribution, but falls within the remit of the Broadcaster, in the case, CTV. Forget all about the Hollywood rules.

4a. P&A for a Commercial Broadcaster is dependent yet again, on projected audience share, and in this case, projected advertising revenues.

4b. Finally, I can tell you categorically that CTV have never in the memory of man spent the sort of money you are talking about on P&A for a TV movie, quite simply because it isn't financially viable.

Trust me, I know of which I speak.

[–] csstrowbridge 17 years ago

Oh, for Christ sake.

"4. P&A for TV, and obviously TV Movies, which The Last Casino is, "

I'm talking about Foolproof. Soulflyfan mentioned he liked Foolproof and I said it had the highest P&A budget for a Canadian film.

[–] Five-Leaves_Left 17 years ago

Don't: "Oh for christ's sake" me!

Foolproof has nothing whatsoever to do with The Last Casino, no matter who the hell mentioned it. Quite apart from which you were trying to tell me the same thing about The Last Casino; We were, after all discussing The Last Casino - That's what the damned board is for.

Either post appropriate material or don't bother!

[–] csstrowbridge 17 years ago

"Either post appropriate material or don't bother!"

Read the first post of the thread. It was about the Canadian cinema in general, not The Last Casino specifically. And threads tend to evolve.

[–] Five-Leaves_Left 17 years ago

Look, this forum is for The Last Casino, as are all the threads contained in the forum; they are not about Canadian Cinema in general, irrespective of whatever you may think, or what is contained in the first post in the thread.

what I said applies: Either post appropriate material or don't bother. If you want to talk about another Canadian film, then go to that forum, or that thread, and post there. That is where whatever you want to talk about belongs -not here.

If you wanted to compare The Last Casino with another Canadian film of the genre, or indeed any other film of the genre, period, then fine. That would be appropriate.

in fact, quite apart from appropriate, it would make a helluva lot more sense.

[–] csstrowbridge 17 years ago

"Either post appropriate material or don't bother."

If you don't think this thread is appropriate, then report it. If you don't think what I've posted is appropriate, then report me.

But don't blame me because you misread my post.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Five-Leaves_Left 17 years ago

No, no, no; don't blame me because you cannot post material in the relevant place.

You want to talk about films other than The Last Casino, go to another board, end of!

[–] csstrowbridge 17 years ago

Listen, I'm sorry for swearing at you earlier. I was just upset that this argument was based on a simple misunderstanding.

However, this thread started out about Canadian cinema in general and my post were relevant to the ones I responded to.

[–] daniellevesquedt 16 years ago

The most successful in terms of box office success for a canadian film is My Big Fat Greek Wedding. (at least to my knowledge) It grossed 241 million and change.

http://ca.askmen.com/toys/top_10_150/150c_top_10_list.html

"My alcoholism is not to be idolized"

[–] Winsk 18 years ago

"If anybody knows the greatest box office hit made by Canadians in Canada with Canadian money, let me know."

"As far as I know, it's Porky's."

I believe it was overtaken by a Quebec film called "C.R.A.Z.Y.".

[–] Dufresne-3 17 years ago

That record was actually held for 25 years until just the other month when BON COP BAD COP exceeded it.

There was big talk about the Trailer Park Boys film, but I'm not sure how that's doing. BCBC has been out a few months, so we'll see by then how the Boys are doing.

[–] yo_chica42 18 years ago

i can't think of a canadian movie that was a big hit but we do have some better plot lines and better actors its just the money thing

and im glad that we don't waste most of our money on makoing films because if we did we would haev a place like hollywood where everybody is fake

plus we would start to get cocky and make crappy million dollar remakes that make no money with really bad acting

so in the end i think that its kinda good that we don't spend all of our taxes on movies its good that we still make great movies and the money is not always what makes them great

[–] sweiland75 18 years ago

Why do you assume that money is directly co-related to quality? Are ALL Hollywood movies the best-of-the-best? I seriously hope you don't think so. I can named a tonne of crap Hollywood movies and a tonne of crap independent movies. I think your problem is (as is the problem with most Canadians) they assume that Canadian films are bad by default so when they go to the local theatre and have a choice between a Canadian movie and an American movie they will go see... you guessed it! The American movie, because most Canadians seem to be oblivious to the many great movies our country has produced. Sad really.

Namaste, and good luck.

[–] chefmoviebuff 18 years ago

Money is necessarily related to quality; it simply draws the top Canadian talent south of the border. Paul Haggis for example. Am I oblivious to great Canadian cinema? Well, it seems strange to me that the ones on the MOvie Network that are playing constantly, even the ones that had a reasonable distribution, are really bad films. "Phil The Alien." "Intern Adademy." "The Last Casino." "Hollywood North." Wow. Quality.

But then again, when I go to the local cinema to pick a film, why aren't any films from Quebec reaching our cinemas?

[–] Chinstrap 17 years ago

Wait a minute -- don't give me the old "not enough money" line. That just doesn't wash. How do you explain the quality Australian, British, French, Czech, etc. films?! Do you think those movies are made with Hollywood budgets? No, Canadian movies are -- by and large -- crap for some other reason. I can spot a Canadian film through a living room window from across the street. They have that "look". The scripts are usually lame beyond belief, the lighting and cinematography is film school grade, the acting ranges from horrific to uninspired. I don't know what it is, but frankly, I think the world court ought to ban us from making feature films. Sure, Hollywood is responsible for tons of garbage and so are other countries, but Canada has yet to produce one film that I would voluntarily pay $12 to see in a cinema. Fubar and Screamers are the closest I've seen to something that has actually been entertaining. A History of Violence wasn't bad, either, but was that actually Canadian or just directed by one? Most of the actors in it were American.

[–] HorrorNutSac 17 years ago

Ginger Snaps

[–] Chinstrap 17 years ago

Ginger Snaps. Is that your example of quality Canadian cinema? Look when I gave Fubar and Screamers as examples of movies that are mildly entertaining, I was being generous. I suppose if I was in a specially good mood and wanted to be reeeeaaally generous, I could also include Ginger Snaps, but c'mon, it's hardly quality movie making. It's a renter. It's something you watch on tv, when you've already seen that night's episodes of Law and Order and CSI and some station has to fill it's CanCon quota and has already played it's other Canadian "classics" like Porky's or Shivers or the completely unwatchable Going Down the Road too many times. Ginger Snaps? Sorry if I offend, but I think you're just proving my point.

[–] Visaman-1 17 years ago

I just saw "Last Casino on TV for the 6th time". I had also watched
"Christmas Vacation 2: Cousin Eddie's Island Adventure".

Which movie did I think was the better one?

[–] BloodBarn 17 years ago

Watch Guy Maddin movies and tell me canadian movies are lame again.

[–] sleddawg63 17 years ago

Well this argument is like asking "when was the last time an American NHL team won with all Americans on the roster?"

The truth is with any talent-based profession, there is a drain from Canada to where the money is...of course being the United States. This happens not only in film, but in sports and medicine.

It's an unfortunate result of the free market system. A Canadian with talent does not stay in this country. There are exceptions, Sarah Polley comes to mind...but she is rare.

What is left is an industry that lacks talent...lack of talent means lack of value with also translates to lack of funding and technology.

I believe in Canadian talent in any profession. Maybe we should ask, when was the last time a quality American film was made without one Canadian in the cast or crew? I bet that might be hard to find.

[–] Prelude76 17 years ago

I agree. I've made a list at listal.com and this is the best canadian films I can think of:

http://www.listal.com/viewlist/movies/3178

For those too lazy to follow the links, it goes like this:

Snow Walker
The Sweet Hereafter
Adventures of Bob & Dough MacKenzie
Expiration
Delicate Art of Parking
My Life Without Me
Going the Distance

Out of those, only Snow Walker and Sweet Hereafter do I feel good enough to recommend to people. I mean, I want to love Canadian cinema, but it's as if the country is completely drained of talent because of proximity to the US. Its the only way i can explain it. As someone mentioned, look at Czech cinema for example. I'm a czech-canadian, so I do watch a lot of czech films as well, and for a country less than half the population of Canada, a very limited audience (how many czech-speaking people are there worldwide, compared to English and French speakers that Canadian films can target?), and significantly lower per-capita income compared to Canadians, yet they pound out pure worldwide acclaimed masterpieces, and have been doing this since the 1920s. Even when they were oppressed by the Nazis in the 1930s, and then the communists by the 1940s til 1990s, they still managed to put out brilliant films. Even Australia is kicking Canada's arse in the film industry. Something is really wrong with that.

[–] Prelude76 17 years ago

well to be a bit more fair, I should isolate it as ENGLISH part of Canadian cinema. The Quebec side is rocking and have many awesome flicks; its the ENGLISH films that are extremely lacking. Although not to rain on the BON COP BAD COP parade, I couldnt finish that film. It may be our biggest financial success, partly because it was the juggernaut Quebec film industry trying to break into English-side of Canada with a bilingual action crime film, but as a whole, it felt like a long drawn out episode of Law & Order or one of the other countless crime shows on TV.

[–] nicolepranck 13 years ago

Incendies (2010): Denis Villeneuve(Canada), just nominated for best foreign film at the oscars

[–] Burgershmurger (1268) 3 years ago

What are you on about? This movie is excellent. Great cast and great cinematography. It's another matter if you don't like the plot. But craft wise, it's up there with any Lalaland production. You're making it look like a crappy b movie.