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would have liked to have seen two different movies

posted 9 years ago by clemenbroog_21
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After watching this I feel like there were two different stories happening here that couldn't be fully developed because they were forced to share the same movie. What drew me to the film was the outsider art element and I still think there is great potential in a story about the relationship between a gallery owner and an artist but this movie wasn't interested in pursuing that plot as anything other than occasional awkward humor. The story of the family was stronger but I had trouble understanding it in relation to Madeline who seemed to be the main character. I couldn't honestly tell how she felt about her new family, if she felt isolated or if she even had a desire to relate to these people. maybe there wasn't supposed to be one main character but to me Madeline was the character whose perspective we had the most insight into; I saw the people around her as eccentric and sad weirdos because of her struggle to interact with them and their reaction to her.
For me it comes down to the question of why Madeline and George have to be together in the first place? There seemed to be nothing to their relationship other than a plot device for her to meet with this artist and to give him a reason to visit his family. There was nothing there between them and the movie seemed to have no interest in establishing anything other than a sexual relationship: maybe it was supposed to reveal how little they knew each other and that maybe they had jumped the gun in getting married but there didn't seem to be any revelations about that either. There was a lot of potential in the two different sides of the movie, Madeline's side and George's side, but I'm not sure that their two stories really needed to come together; they maybe could have been better developed separate from one another. But I'm bitter because the outsider art aesthetic was just a gimmick and I feel gazumped. Everything besides the poster was disappointing to me.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

clemenbroog_21 wrote:

What drew me to the film was the outsider art element and I still think there is great potential in a story about the relationship between a gallery owner and an artist but this movie wasn't interested in pursuing that plot as anything other than occasional awkward humor.

But I'm bitter because the outsider art aesthetic was just a gimmick and I feel gazumped.

What seems to have happened is that you watched the movie because of the outsider art element and was then disappointed because the outsider art element is not in any sense central to the story that the movie is telling.Not being able to relate to a movie because you expect one thing, and get another thing, is a common source of frustration.

I couldn't honestly tell how she felt about her new family, if she felt isolated or if she even had a desire to relate to these people.

I thought that it was very clear that Madeleine wants very badly to be accepted by her husband's family. She has grown up in a variety of cultures and understands that different cultures have different ways of doing things. She is not put off by George's family the way that some WASP might well be.She does not at all look down on George's family or on the outsider artists that she deals with.The movie is not "about" Madeleine although she is certainly part of it

I saw the people around her as eccentric and sad weirdos because of her struggle to interact with them and their reaction to her.

Madeleine has absolutely no problem interacting with the family. She is trying to win them all over, but she is not angry that she does not succeed with Johnny and Peg. She is still trying with Peg at the end of the movie.The movie is about the interactions of the "eccentric and sad weirdos" — I assume you mean George's family, not the artist — and how they got that way. If "eccentric and sad weirdos" is all that you see there, then it is easy to understand why you did not like the movie.

[–] clemenbroog_21 9 years ago

I guess because this is the type of movie that relies more on body language and physical interaction than dialogue we interpreted Madeline in totally different ways. I didn't see anything she did as being genuine, she just seemed to be putting on airs with everybody, possibly because that's all she knows how to do. She is the product of her own social class the way everyone in George's family is marked by their social class. I'm not saying that she doesn't have feelings but that maybe even she herself isn't so sure of what those feelings are, perhaps because of the way she was raised. I think it was intentional that there is never any evidence to support why Madeline would want to be part of George's family other than the fact that as his wife she should want to, because that's what society expects. Similarly there was never any reason provided for why she wanted to represent the outsider artist other than the fact that she owns an outsider art gallery and he is a potentially marketable artist. Although she says things about seeing his artwork as her children there wasn't any suggestion that she really felt this way and that she wasn't just trying to win him over. I interpreted Madeline's interactions with the family in the same way. She just knows that she should want to get along and interact with these people but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what she really wants. I guess this movie is about how people don't know what they want and how this get's us into hopeless situations: Madeline's marriage to a man she realizes she doesn't know that much about, Ashley's relationship with Johnny where neither one knows how to love the other and similarly the parent's relationship which seems pretty acrimonious.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

clemenbroog_21 wrote:

I didn't see anything she did as being genuine,

I saw everything that Madeleine did as being completely genuine.

Madeline would want to be part of George's family other than the fact that as his wife she should want to

She wants to be part of George's family because now it is her family. I believe that is the way she was raised. Also, she was raised in a family in which there was a lot of physical contact.

because that's what society expects.

I have no idea where you get that.

Similarly there was never any reason provided for why she wanted to represent the outsider artist other than the fact that she owns an outsider art gallery

Do you mean no reason why she does outsider art? It is just what she does. It's what she finds exciting. It is the job that she has chosen and her profession.

Ashley's relationship with Johnny where neither one knows how to love the other and similarly the parent's relationship which seems pretty acrimonious.

When you start talking about the relationships, you are coming a lot closer to what the film is dealing with. But you left out the important ones.I think we are too far apart on this for there to be any meaningful exchange.

[–] clemenbroog_21 9 years ago

I think we are too far apart on this for there to be any meaningful exchange.

I don't know about that. This has certainly made me think more about the movie. I still don't know how much I like it but I'm glad to have thought it through a bit more.

[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

I agree with ppllkk that Madeline actually came off as very genuine. For me, George was very detached (like every other male in his family) and shallow. He, like Johnny, had two moments when he seemed real, but his choice to leave was a greater rejection of his environment than any misstep Madeline made.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

For me, George was very detached (like every other male in his family) and shallow.

Growing up, George dealt with his very difficult mother by not fighting her and by giving her what she wanted. It is probably the only way to deal with Peg that does not end in disaster.George was able to give Peg what she wanted. He seems to have been good at whatever he tried. Johnny is not as smart as George, and in general, just not as successful. He grew up being constantly compared by his mother with George. He could not be as successful as George, and at some point he gave up.The way that George dealt with his mother probably did affect the way that he deals with people in general, but being home he completely reverts to how he dealt with his mother as a child. He doesn't really have any choice unless he wants a fight which won't accomplish anything.He did not want to be there in the first place, and he just wants to get out of there without a mess.George has the additional problem that he is close to Ashley and he knows what it would do to his brother if Johnny ever figured that out. The one thing that Johnny ever had that George didn't is Ashley, and the suspicion that Ashley may actually be closer to George would destroy him.George has always been the one who succeeded and Johnny the one who failed. That is why Johnny hits George. He should've been the one to comfort Ashley, but he couldn't do it, and his brother did.Lest there be any misunderstanding, I don't believe that the relationship between Ashley and George was ever physical, but they are emotionally very close. Like older brother and kid sister. I don't think Johnny could understand it that way.So, there are good reasons for George — and the other men in the family — to appear detached, and we don't really know what he's like back in Chicago.______________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

George has the additional problem that he is close to Ashley and he knows what it would do to his brother if Johnny ever figured that out. The one thing that Johnny ever had that George didn't is Ashley, and the suspicion that Ashley may actually be closer to George would destroy him.

George has always been the one who succeeded and Johnny the one who failed. That is why Johnny hits George. He should've been the one to comfort Ashley, but he couldn't do it, and his brother did.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, I don't believe that the relationship between Ashley and George was ever physical, but they are emotionally very close. Like older brother and kid sister. I don't think Johnny could understand it that way.

So, there are good reasons for George — and the other men in the family — to appear detached, and we don't really know what he's like back in Chicago.

That is an interesting perspective. I chalked George and Ashley's seemingly out of nowhere closeness as reflective of George's tendency to be whoever someone wants him to be in the moment and Ashley's general and in-the-moment neediness. I don't think they shared a scene together before she went to the hospital, other than the church scene. However, Ashley attaches herself, easily and fervently, to people, like with Madeline. In that moment, she only had George, so George was there for her. But, had she had anyone else around, I think he would have left Ashley's emotional needs to them...even if it had been Johnny.

I don't think the mom was bad enough to justify the level of detachment demonstrated by her husband and sons. She was annoying, but I wanted to kill Johnny before his first scene was over, and I would have sent the dad right back out to get what he was supposed to. I felt like George was simply the perfect son by default, not by effort.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

I chalked George and Ashley's seemingly out of nowhere closeness as reflective of George's tendency to be whoever someone wants him to be in the moment and Ashley's general and in-the-moment neediness.

I thought that it was clear in the hospital scene that they had a very long-standing and very close relationship.

Ashley to George in the hospital: You always know what I need.

This is not the first time that he has comforted her.George has not been home in three years. We do not know if he went to college locally or not, but I believe the relationship goes back to when he was in high school. I believe Ashley is about four years younger than he is.

I don't think they shared a scene together before she went to the hospital, other than the church scene.

I think that is true. George stays away from her lest someone else pick up on how close they are. Look at her face in the church supper scene when George is singing. When they leave the church, George has his arm around Madeline and Ashley is dragging them forward like a kid sister.

However, Ashley attaches herself, easily and fervently, to people, like with Madeline.

Ashley attaches herself to Madeleine because she wants to know everything about her big brother's wife. I don't think there are other examples.There is no hint of sexual jealousy in Ashley's relationship with Madeleine.

But, had she had anyone else around, I think he would have left Ashley's emotional needs to them...even if it had been Johnny.

Well, yes, but because it is very important to keep his closeness with Ashley secret. Can you imagine what it would do to Johnny if he found out? Even if he accepted that it wasn't sexual, Ashley is in some ways closer to George than she is to Johnny. That would destroy at least their marriage and probably Johnny.

I don't think the mom was bad enough to justify the level of detachment demonstrated by her husband and sons.

We are going to disagree about that. I thought that Peg was a horror. The bottom line is that both of her children hate her, or at least don't want to be anywhere near her. Her husband loves her, but he still doesn't want to be around her. Perhaps you misunderstand how bad she is.

I felt like George was simply the perfect son by default, not by effort.

I don't think so. Really the only way to deal with someone like Peg is to give them what they want and not fight them. He figured that out early on and he was able to do it. I agree that being the perfect son comes naturally to him, but look at how he avoids conflict with his mother all the time wanting to get the hell out of there. He has been doing that all his life.George avoids whenever he can being around both Peg and Madeleine at the same time because he knows what his mother is like and how she is going to treat Madeleine. He knows that if he defends Madeleine the situation will simply degenerate. George has become hardwired to simply avoid any sort of conflict with his mother. No one is so completely that way naturally. It is a survival technique. I think of it as being similar to the Stockholm Syndrome.

but I wanted to kill Johnny before his first scene was over,

Later on, we come to understand why he is that way and how different he is away from his mother.________________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

Believe me, I understand what kind of awful Peg was. My grandmother was a similar type of woman, possibly even worse (rest her soul). But once I matured past the tears, I learned how to deal with her effectively with minimal fighting. I even got her to apologize once or twice...in her way at least😉.

I didn't sense anything sexual between Ashley and George...at all! What was not clear to me was whether they had shared genuine closeness in the past, or whether she simply projected their closeness onto his general placidity. Ashley seemed like an affectionate person, in general. She, like Madeline, seemed very lonely, family-wise in particular. So, if we want to discuss survival instincts, I think that was Ashley's. She projected a lot onto Madeline, but that was at least positively reflected back to her. I also think she projected onto Johnny, but all she got was a husband who enjoyed the sex but hated the responsibilities. Bless her heart!

As for Johnny, I really have a hard time forgiving or understanding someone so lazy, selfish and ineffectual. He was whining about not being to find the cigarettes, but he wasn't even trying hard to find them. He didn't apologize for eating the last of the eggs then returning the empty carton to the fridge (no excuse for that). I have no appreciation for someone who can't pick up the slack. Once his dad returned, he could have offered to borrow the car to pick up more eggs, cigarettes and whatever else the dad forgot; or at least mumble something about getting them after work. And while thinking to tape the meerkat special for Ashley was sweet, he didn't even consider the fact that his tantrum disrupted a her very special event, simply because it didn't occur to him to try another tape. If he was at all sensitive to the stress that his mother induces in her, Johnny should have been sympathetic to her need to be surrounded by so many supportive women. I mean, her desire to have a child probably had a lot to do with her need to have someone in her life she could believe would love her freely and simply.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

My grandmother was a similar type of woman, possibly even worse (rest her soul).

I notice that you said "grandmother" not "mother." "Grandmother" is a completely different situation. George survived his mother without apparent gross damage. Johnny did not.I think that is typical. Some people manage to survive horrible parents and some people do not. George was able to be what his mother wanted, and Johnny was not.As a result, George got Peg's love — he was surely aware that it came with a price — and Johnny did not.

What was not clear to me was whether they had shared genuine closeness in the past,

I don't see how you can watch the hospital bed scene and not understand that they are very close and very emotionally intimate.

or whether she simply projected their closeness onto his general placidity.

You seem to see Ashley as something like a retarded child. She isn't.You seem to think that their closeness came out of nothing. George has not been home in three years. There is at least four years age difference. In the normal course of things, they would not have hung out together and been friends in high school. Their closeness has to go back to before Ashley and Johnny got together, and I think probably to before George went to college. It has been there for quite a while.I think that in high school both of them wanted families, and they discovered each other and became brother and sister.

She, like Madeline, seemed very lonely, family-wise in particular.

Ashley literally did not have a family. I don't know why you say that about Madeleine. She seems to have had great parents.That she wants to be liked by her husband's parents does not mean that she is lonely for a family. It is just the way that she is. Madeleine is very accepting of people. They are her husband's family and so they are her family. I believe that is how she was brought up.

She projected a lot onto Madeline, but that was at least positively reflected back to her.

I have no idea why you say that. She wants to know everything about her big brother's wife. She cannot get close to George in public, but she can get close to his wife.

as for Johnny, I really have a hard time forgiving or understanding someone so lazy, selfish and ineffectual.

What do you think it was like growing up with that mother always comparing you unfavorably to your older brother?Now he has had to move back in with his mother, he is about to become a father which he is ambivalent about, and the brother that he was always compared unfavorably with is about to arrive with his elegant wife. The brother who went to college and seems to be successful at his job in Chicago while Johnny can't even put a roof over his wife's head.Johnny hates George. Look at his face while George is singing at the church supper. George is once again the center of everyone's admiration, and Johnny is nothing.Why did Cain kill Abel? Sibling rivalry is a very old and very common family problem.The Johnny that we see at work is the real Johnny, the Johnny that Ashley married.

If he was at all sensitive to the stress that his mother induces in her,

I don't see that Peg stresses Ashley at all. She seems oblivious to Peg or maybe she's just so happy to have some family. Peg is a lot easier to deal with if you did not grow up with her as your mother.

I mean, her desire to have a child probably had a lot to do with her need to have someone in her life she could believe would love her freely and simply.

I think that the reasons that women want children are complex and not easily nailed down to just one thing._______________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

I notice that you said "grandmother" not "mother." "Grandmother" is a completely different situation. George survived his mother without apparent gross damage. Johnny did not.

I did, however, grow up with my father right across the street from her. My uncle lived around the corner, with his daughter. And, my aunt, the eldest like George, fled the state and vowed never to have children. Like I said, I am aware of the dynamic. Everyone has their dysfunctions, but Johnny seems crippled. Are there any female examples of Cain and Abel, because that might be why I just don't get it?

I don't see that Peg stresses Ashley at all. She seems oblivious to Peg or maybe she's just so happy to have some family.

I do not think Ashley is like "a retarded child," but I do think she lacks cynicism and might be over-optimistic in a child-like way. I also think that there is a difference between wanting to get to know you new sister-in-law and embracing her like you're 13 year old BFFs. I know that a lot of people like her tend to connect with and rely on people who end up taking advantage of them, or at the very least letting them down. Peg stresses Ashley, which is why she was trying to protect Madeline over the broken parrot. It was a sweet but completely unnecessary gesture, since Madeline probably could have handled whatever Peg dished out.

I think that the reasons that women want children are complex and not easily nailed down to just one thing.

Obviously! But given that she was still young, had dreams of going to college, and her husband was reluctant, my explanation probably played a big part in her subconscious.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

Everyone has their dysfunctions, but Johnny seems crippled.

Johnny does not seem crippled at work. He seems quite normal and quite happy. I agree that he is "crippled" around his mother, and for financial reasons, he has to live in the same house with her. Add the stress of becoming a father and his always successful brother returning home, and he is certainly not at his best. He is not ambitious, but that is not the same thing as being crippled. He seems easily satisfied to a fault.

Are there any female examples of Cain and Abel, because that might be why I just don't get it?

I cannot at this moment think of a classic, instantly recognizable case of that in women, but I know that I have certainly run across it, and I do not believe that it is any more common in men than in women.Someone writing about the Cain and Abel story said that God does not understand the first rule of parenting. (Admittedly, he has not had much experience.) You have to love all your children equally even if they are not equal in abilities. I don't believe that just applies to sons.Cain and Abel is a compact way to refer to the syndrome, but I believe that it is an extremely common syndrome in both men and women. Google "sibling rivalry."

I do think she lacks cynicism and might be over-optimistic in a child-like way.

I agree.

I also think that there is a difference between wanting to get to know you new sister-in-law and embracing her like you're 13 year old BFFs.

You seem to be objecting that she is quite open and unsophisticated. Madeleine is exotic for her, and the wife of someone very dear to her.Ashley does not act the way that a graduate of Smith would act, but I was quite charmed by it. So was Madeline.

Peg stresses Ashley

I don't see that. Can you give examples?

which is why she was trying to protect Madeline over the broken parrot.

She knows what Peg is like, but I don't see any evidence that she is particularly stressed by Peg herself. Certainly not the way her husband constantly is. Having not grown up with Peg as her mother, Ashley can accept her for what she is without all of the baggage from childhood.

my explanation probably played a big part in her subconscious.

Okay. I do not have an opinion about that._______________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

Okay, I'm sorry. This is starting to feel like a mildly contentious group therapy session. This movie and our exchange have set off some emotional triggers. Let's just say that Peg was a light-weight compared to my grandmother. I have recognized that I am very much the "George" of my family, which is probably why I see the George-Ashley relationship the way that I do. And especially, it is probably why I am more critical of George and Johnny than you seem to be. As stimulating as it has been to discuss a movie that others have deemed pointless, I suspect we will not come to agreement on our interpretations of the characters.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

I suspect we will not come to agreement on our interpretations of the characters.

Okay. We all bring our own experiences to fiction.I did ask my wife about the female parallel for Cain and Abel, something instantly recognizable but with women.She could not come up with a really good example, but she did say that you should ask any woman who has sisters. She gets along with them quite well, but she understands sibling rivalry. I suspect that the sister closest to her in age really understands it, and their mother was not making invidious comparisons. I believe her sister went through school having teacher after teacher say to her, "Are you are the sister of . . ."________________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

Yeah. My sister, my cousin and I definitely had sibling rivalries/resentments (probably deep ones, as there were invidious comparisons). Yet, we usually defended/protected each other to the adults...even if we privately agreed with them on some level. And...I think...as women, we are held to a higher level of responsibility to make things related to the family unit work, even if we have to perform mental gymnastics to do it.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

Yeah. My sister, my cousin and I definitely had sibling rivalries/resentments (probably deep ones, as there were invidious comparisons).

Okay, that is what I'm talking about. I think it may be worst when a child perceives that a sibling is loved much more than they are.Poor Johnny did not have a chance. George is a lot brighter than he is and George was always a star. Johnny is just a normal guy. There was no way that he could succeed the way George did, and I believe it was clear to him that Peg loved George much more than she loved Johnny.______________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

[–] JaeBianca 9 years ago

And I guess that is where we don't see eye to eye. 1) Because a mother's relationship with her son is only one aspect of familial relationships. And, 2) he was not "just a normal guy," graduating from high school shows a bare minimum of self-respect. One doesn't have to be a "star" or bright to achieve it. The fact that he didn't seem to care about getting his GED for himself, let alone as a way to provide more for his wife and child, counts a lot towards me seeing him as crippled. I can't even speak about his interpretation of Madeline sincerely trying to help him out as a sexual advance.

[–] ppllkk 9 years ago

JaeBianca wrote:

And I guess that is where we don't see eye to eye.

Yes.

1) Because a mother's relationship with her son is only one aspect of familial relationships.

Eugene loves Peg, but he only barely interacts with her. I do not see him constantly fighting with Peg over the way that she is treating the children.

2) he was not "just a normal guy," graduating from high school shows a bare minimum of self-respect.

Peg destroyed Johnny. At some point, he just gave up. In so far as it was a matter of self-respect, he did not have any self-respect left.

One doesn't have to be a "star" or bright to achieve it.

Of course not, but if you have been seen your entire life as a failure, it is easy to not care and add another one.

The fact that he didn't seem to care about getting his GED for himself, let alone as a way to provide more for his wife and child, counts a lot towards me seeing him as crippled.

The former is a consequence of what his mother did to him.Do you really not understand what parents can do to children? It is certainly true that some children are more vulnerable others. I believe that Johnny would have been a completely different person if his mother had loved him and not constantly treated him as a failure. George also grew up in an extremely unhealthy environment, but he was able to give Peg what she wanted, and so he survived.___________________________________________________________________

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07