MovieChat Forums > Adams æbler (2005) Discussion > About the muslim 'terrorist'

About the muslim 'terrorist'


One of the comment writers (ftmhsddq) was offended by the depiction of the only muslim character in the movie as a criminal/terrorist and says it inwoked images in his head of the Muhammad Cartoon Affair and danish racism etc.

I'm danish and I'm not really interested in discussing here whether we are racists or not, but I would like to point to a certain danish tradition which some of the non-danes in here may not be familiar with. In Denmark like in many other countries we have certain rituals that need to be followed in order to alleviate you of any guilt/shame before you can "get down to bussiness" on serious subjects.
In other countries such rituals involve drinking. In Japan for instance it's an old tradition that two men can't discuss deep personal matters without getting drunk first, because they are normally expected to be very formal, in control and certainly not in need of unburdening themselves to others. But because you're drunk you're excused and can always say afterwards that it was just the booze talking.
In USA in decades past it was a tradition that a 'proper' young woman should get somewhat drunk with a man before she would sleep with him, because then she could afterwards claim that she wouldn't have slept with him if he hadn't gotten her drunk and 'taken advantage' of her.
And so on.
In Denmark there's a tradition for approaching touchy matters by way of exaggeration. Matters that this movie touches upon like incest, neo-nazism, handicaps, abortion and crime are very real in danish society, but it's hard to touch on them in a movie in a politically correct way without the movie being heavy and boring. Unless you do it with humor. These heavy matters are of course not something you can normally make fun of without hurting people's feelings; unless you exaggerate. If you exaggerate so much that it's obviously out of the ordinary, then you can discuss hurtful matters without really hurting people's feelings (at least in the danish context).
Of course we are aware that the large majority of muslims in Denmark (and around the world) are neither terrorists nor criminals, but there is a substantial problem in Denmark with emigrants (often from muslim countries) who are badly integrated and turn to crime. Whether this is the fault of society or the individual is again not something I wish to discuss here. But by letting Khalid explain (in an exaggerated way) his reasons for doing what he does, we touch on the matter of how people's actions are always rational by their own standards even if they seem wrong and incomprehensible to others, which is often the case when it comes to crime and terrorism.
I agree with ftmhsddq that the muslim terrorist is a cliché, but so is the priest with his blind faith, the evil racist, the fat drunk etc., but they are all exaggerated and therefore not meant to be offensive.

I hope that what I'm saying makes some kind of sense to you and maybe enable you to watch other comedies like Adams Æbler without feeling offended.

reply

I havent watch the movie yet but anyway i do get what you are saying. One thing you have to understand is that the muslim terrorist came after 09/11-01, and that it have EXPLODED in the face of the world. I call that propaganda. And those who use this propaganda to their fortune... Well let them do it. But it is hard to accept these kind of stereo-typical potrayal of muslims. Its because many(some, few, whatever) who do watch these kind of potrayal will actually think this is it, there is no other truth. Especially when the mass-media focus is directed against negative potrayal of muslims. And when you are a muslim in one of these countries growing more and more hatred against muslims and their culture, its hard to swallow something not even ment to offend.

I have heard good things about this movie, and im anxious to how it is. Hope its not too much of the stereo-typical, i really dont need that(depends on the setting of course).

reply

After watching the movie, and in contrast with how muslims are often described in the media, i can see no offensive material about it in the movie... THe movie has only weird ppl in it, so how should anything be offensive :)

reply

I'm convinced that Ali Kazim is a guy who would NEVER take the part he's playing in this movie, if he'd found it offensive. He is also a hip hop artist, and has released a single that's rather angry. It's a political song about the racism towards the arabic emmigrants in Denmark. It has some very harsh lyrics, and in the chorus he sings the following in danish: "Question; what is it your trying to gain, with the way you're hating us?".

The song question actually offended me a bit since I never act prejudice towards muslims or arabic people, Ali Kazim was to broad in his observations I think. I know it wasn't targeted towards guys like me, but I still think it's harsh to refer to the entire Danish population as a bunch of haters.

Anyway, I know I got a bit of topic there, but my point was that Ali Kazim is very aware of racism, stereotypes and what have you, he wouldn't take a part if he felt it was making a stereo type of a muslim.

reply

This is *beep* there's nothing to be offended about. The only muslim in this movie is a criminal thief, and a funny one too. All the white ppl in the movie are either nazi or retarded, so what?!? It doesn't mean anything.

Besides, viewers don't feel anger towards Khalid, because he's funny and kinda sympatic, furthermore, the only ppl in movie who hates him are skinheads. So you have funny thief in one hand and nazis in the other. Who do you think most ppl would cheer for?



anyway... i didn't like this movie dispite some funny jokes here and there... too much Jesus-crap and lame christian symbolism anyone can figure out

reply

I agree I'm muslim and I didn't feel offended by the character.

a selfish is a person who only think of me

reply

Danish Humor in general can be very hard to fully understand :-) We have so much dark humor and exadurating comments that the hidden tone can be very hard to catch ... ( hope that made sens )

I agree 100% with the topic creator.

And thumbs up to this film : >

reply

Adam's Apples is opening theatrically in New York on March 16th, Vancouver on March 30th, Los Angeles and Boston on April 13th, San Francisco on May 11th and Denver, Portland and Austin on June 1st with more dates to come... see it on film, it's shot in scope and looks great on screen. Visit www.outsiderpictures.us for more information. There is nothing offensive about the Muslim character.

reply

I've just reviewed the film and went to some lengths to understand Danish humour first, so your post was most interesting and to me. Thank you.

Denmark has many black comedies, and the dry, very forthright humour seems to be quite a trademark. To me, the acid test is whether there is some genuine concern towards the groups that are the butt of the jokes.

For instance, in Festen, we are appalled at the light-hearted attitude in the face of what has gone on. I think this type of humour is mirrored in the British comedy series The Office. We get to laugh, but also feel uncomfortable when we realise what we are laughing at.

I admire much of what this director has written. In Wilbur Wants to Kill Himself, I think the bluntness was offset by Scherfig sensitivity (as a woman perhaps?) Likewise, I thought Jensen's character creation for Red Road was gobsmacking - quite brilliant.

Von Trier's new comedy is a masterpiece (in my opinion) and it is excruciatingly funny, very Danish, but also makes us think about the sort of abuse of power in the office situations depicted. There is plenty of racial stuff flying about too (the Danish-Icelandic thing also needs a bit of study for foreigners), but the really acerbic lines are directed at his own country.

Sadly, although I think Adam's Apples is very clever, I think it is also, unfortunately, rather offensive, even allowing for the 'Danishness'. We use humour to release tension harmlessly. This is fine, but the definition of 'harmlessly' tends to change with time. If this film was never seen by Indonesians, Pakistanis, women, anyone who has been raped or abused, anyone with Down's syndrome or caring for someone with Down's syndrome, it would be harmless in the sense of what you don't know doesn't hurt you, but by promulgating abusive mannerisms, even if no harm is intended, harm is the eventual result.

It took me a long time to decide that the use of the word 'Paki' is offensive, so I no longer use it - even in jest. I don't recall anything in the film about Islam however. It uses the word 'Paki' and also caricatures him as a terrorist. I think the latter is reasonable license for a story, whereas I personally think the former should have been avoided.

A lot is down to personal experiences and outlook and I don't expect anyone else necessarily to agree with me. I also think Jensen is very talented and I hope he makes work I like rather than this, that I admit I had to make myself sit through.

http://comments.imdb.com/user/ur0064493/comments-index?order=date&summary=off&start=0

reply

i believe if u let the movie get too u the joke is on u ;)

this movie is very provocotive, i like that :D too much goodie toushou movies out there with to many tabus and censur...

reply

Actually, we do not know if the Arab is a terrorist. We see a picture of him in a scarf and with a gun, but he might as well be a plain criminal, highway robber or similar.
In fact, his supposed idealism (only robbing Statoil, because they took his house) is obviously just an excuse to rob gas stations ("Statiol is Norwegian"). If you take the information from the film, it is more likely that he goes back and becomes a gangster, not a terrorist.

This film, I think, should only provoke religious people, since the message (at least to me) was "religion is denying reality, but you'll be better off that way".

reply

I do think that one of the film's messages might be: "religion is denying..........way". You know, Mark Twain agreed with that feeling as well.





Ad hoc, Ad loc, Quid pro queeee,
So little time and so much to see

reply

All humor is in some way offensive. All humor makes fun of something else.
Instead of taking offense to it though we should laugh it off and even the most taboo subjects in humor become less of a taboo thing.

Also with (verbal)discrimination. It remains a hurtfull thing because people take it seriously. If one doesn't take it seriously, laughs it off as ignorance for all I care then it loses it's strength.

Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look realy un-evolved? - Bill Hicks

reply

terrorist? a thief rather. one must be 100% brainwashed by media to see terrorist in Khalid character.

reply

Exactly. Somehow I have noticed that muslims tend to see a problem where there is none. As it was mentioned here before, all the other characters were no saints either. Does the person who got offended by Khalid's character mean that muslims should only be shown as good citizens and no - God forbid! - criminals? But that just wouldn't be fair, becuase it's not true. There are criminals among muslims as well as among people of any other religion, nationality or whatever. And in societies where it's common to make jokes muslims will be laughed at like any other people.
Besides, I think Khalid was a good guy. In his own sense. In Adam's Apples there's a lot to read between the lines.

reply

None of the people who commented that he was a terrorist in movie-comment section identified themselves as muslim... Why limit ourselves to that group.

Many people get offended on befalf of others. Which is fine of course - but if you where to do that with every group of people that where stereotyped in this movie you would end up being offended for society as a whole.

There where no terrorists in this movie.

reply

You can't really go all out on neo-nazism, religion and alcohol addiction then stop at this. Perhaps though 9/11 is still too fresh in people's minds for them to make light of it, whereas the holocaust was generations ago and thus they feel disjointed from it.

He isn't even a terrorist though so it doesn't matter.

reply

Of course we are aware that the large majority of muslims in Denmark (and around the world) are neither terrorists nor criminals

As if this were some great insight. You could say the same about the Germans and Japanese in the 1930s. The vast majority of sharks do not eat humans. Would they if they had the chance? The fact that the majority of Muslims are not out planting bombs proves absolutely nothing. In fact, Muslims support the aims of the terrorists, and in Muslim countries they support the methods (48% of Pakistanis support al Qaeda). And support is anything from approval and allegiance to material support, i.e. refuge and money.

If the Muslim in the film was depicted negatively, so what? He's depicted realistically. Whether he's a "terrorsit" or not is splitting hairs. The difference between the neo-Nazi and the Muslim is mainly style. In fact, there was an immediate bond between those two. In fact, as Adam the Nazi began to come around, he acted to save some lives at the hands of the Muslim. In fact, there are Muslim terrorist cells in Denmark. In fact, Muslim imams based in Denmark preach and promote terrorism. In fact, the worst violent crime in Denmark is committed by Muslims. In fact, Muslims do not attempt to assimilate. In fact, the Danish cartoons spoke the truth, which is what has enraged the Muslims. In fact, Muslims who speak out against the terrorists must have police protection. In fact, Muslims are a nuisance in Denmark, and the vast majority of Danes are sorry they let them in.

In fact, Muslims are a nuisance everywhere, including in their own countries, where they can't keep the peace, can't refrain from barbaric social practices or from having a government riddled with incompetence and corruption from top to bottom. Muslims, whether peaceful or not, do not like Western humanism and liberalism -- they don't like our values, period -- and when they plant themselves amongst us, they don't mind reminding us of this in our face. The extent to which some of them are able to assimilate and become good citizens is the extent to which they give up their Muslim identity.

No, these are not *nice* things to be saying. But facts are facts, and it's nauseating to see people refuse to face them simply because it's easier and more fashionably virtuous to be politically correct than to pay attention to history and to current events or to be honest about them.

As for Khalid, his last words to a sympathetic character were, "*beep* you, Gunnar." I think that pretty much says it all.

reply


As for Khalid, his last words to a sympathetic character were, "*beep* you, Gunnar." I think that pretty much says it all.


Are you sure, you don't confuse sympathetic with pathetic?

reply

Are you sure, you don't confuse sympathetic with pathetic?

Sympathetic or pathetic -- in either case compassion wasn't in Khalids character. If one's life is summed up in one's last words -- in life or literature -- then a nasty sentiment stands for a nasty life lived.

reply

omg! please shove your fact up your ass where they belong

reply

Yup, I suppose to a little rodent who emerges from his hole now and then to make nasty comments, that's where all inconvenient "fact" belong.

reply

MY GOD,ALL OF YOU-STOP THIS!! Adam's Apples is just as movie about several fractured people from different walks of life,who,for different reasons,are brought together,in a way that they cannot escape from.Which can make for some unusual strangeness,even in real life.One person posted here that they didnt like all the Religion stuff.Well,..why watch a movie about a Naive Priest if you dont like that type of influence.I mean,what else did you think the film was about? It was about Ivan,a Priest,who believes that he is in a battle with Satan.It tells you in the description of the film what it is.So why grouse about that,just dont watch it.Others are so wrapped up in their politically correct social selves that they have to find fault where there really was none. Go pick on a film I really love,The Pusher(with Mads Mikkelsen),which is also Danish,if you want to bitch about some really social roughness.Drug dealing,violence,etc.Even then,its a damn outstanding movie,both it and it's sequel The Pusher II(Mads as well).Both have harsh material.More so than this preciously sad account of a man who thinks he can help those that society cannot,while denying the negativity in his life.Get off your high horses,or soap boxes,whichever you want,let things alone,and enjoy a sweet story if you can,..for Christ's sake!!!!!!!.

reply

These kind of danish movies don't have subliminal motives like that at all... We have a saying "shooting house sparrows with canons", and trying to pin racism to this piece of film is exactly that. People seriously need to stop being so high strung about this subject. Yes racism is terrible, but you won't find it here. The Khalid-character is so stereotype that it can never be taken serious. That is how danish humor works... We do the same with literally ALL social groups in Denmark. Be it hicks, rich people, ethnic minorities, teenagers, everybody. That's how it works. Overly stereotyping characters and their traits and behaviour.

Last year we had a satire christmas show (don't know what it's called in english. A TV-show lasting 24 episodes from December 1st to December 24th) called "Yallarup Færgeby" (a copy of an old danish christmas show, starring puppets, titled "Jullerup Færgeby"). It was about two young muslims living and going to school in a danish ghetto environment. It was ALL about stereotyping to such a degree that nobody could really get offended... Parts of the media of course tried to label it as "over the edge", but the general response from the public sounded that it wasn't offending at all really. Both immigrants and dansih people. If you don't speak the language or have in fact spent some time in Denmark, you're probably very unlikely to understand this, and thus some people will take it for something other than it is.

And starting to connect this with the whole Muhammad cartoons thingy is plain ignorant.

reply

I know it's been a couple of years, but some idiot just made a comment, and I responded and meanwhile saw your condescending post.

I speak Danish and have lived in Denmark and have many friends there. I'd say it's plain stupid to call my cartoons reference, "ignorant". The cartoons are "over the edge," the movie, you say, is "over the edge". The connection is there. Or maybe the cartoons are not over the edge. Maybe they are spot on.

The Muslim menace is deadly serious, and the Danish cartoons and the response to them by Muslims is an illustration of how deadly the menace is. Since the post, as you know, a cartoonist was almost assassinated by a Muslim -- not a full-time terrorist but an otherwise ordinary Muslim practicing his religion. No, not the "religion of peace" effete Westerners like to define as Muslim, but the religion of mass murder, intolerance and corruption we witness continually on the news.

Someone here said the movie's Muslim character was "pathetic". Muslims would indeed be pitiable if they weren't so homicidal. Anyway, how do you know he was "over-the-edge" for a Muslim? Edgy is in fact a perfect description of a Muslim. You know, bomb-in-the-turban.

Back to the movie. I "get" Danish humor. Sometimes it's just plain slapstick, like Støvsugerbanden, sometimes droll, like Victor Borge, and sometimes, like you say, over-the-top, like Yallerup Færgeby. My favorite Christmas show is Julekalender. Like Yallerup it uses stereotypes to such an extreme that, as you say, no one who understands can be offended. By the way, this isn't such uniquely Danish humor, as you seem to think. It's called burlesque, and it's practiced in many cultures, except the Muslim, which obviously has trouble laughing at itself.

Where you are wrong about this movie is that if burlesque is the point, then it shouldn't end with death. This is a rule of drama (rule of drama is how the play treats the audience) that many Danish movies often break. It's what makes von Trier such a downer. It's why Danish movies have difficulty internationally. Babette was such a success because it was the counterexample. On the other hand, take the artfully done Terribly Happy. Give me a break!

reply

Why do you assume he's Muslim? Is it just because he's from Pakistan? He doesn't mention his religious beliefs at all. I don't think a real Muslim would hang out at a Lutheran church.

reply

He is in fact from Saudi Arabia. The word "Paki" is used as English translation of the Danish word "perker", which is a derogatory term for anyone from the Middle East.

reply