Plot question - North & South (2005) Discussion

[–] birds_14 8 years ago

Hi butaneggbert!  Welcome.

So how and when did their financial situation change?

Actually, the Hales' financial situation wouldn't have changed an awful lot while in Milton, and they were never in any danger of starving, not even in the beginning. Mrs Hale saying on the train, "We'll be on the streets...in a strange place," is only correct in as much as they didn't have permanent lodgings in Milton upon arrival.

Compared with the workers in Milton the Hales were still comfortably off, at all times. Mr Hale's paying private pupils (Mr Thornton amongst them) were not workers, and they would have kept paying his fees even at the time of the strike. And as a former clergyman's daughter charity was second nature to Margaret, so she did give to the poor whenever she could.

Still, considering that they had formerly been members of the lesser gentry--and Mr Hale would have been of that class from being a parson--they had always lived in very modest circumstances, and rather more so once they were in the North. They could only afford one servant (in the book it is stated that they had several while in the South), and Margaret started to take over some of the household chores... which was considered quite 'beneath' a gentleman's daughter.

But I think that the most important point is that once Mr Hale had to teach the Classics for a living he lost his social status and became 'only' middle class... and Mrs Hale and Margaret, who were both brought up in rather grand surroundings, even though they didn't have money themselves--Mrs Hale came from a country estate, and Margaret lived many years with her rich cousin in London--found this very hard to bear. So, both women were more concerned with losing their social standing than with actually being really poor.

It all boils down to the 19th century English class system and class consciousness, and how coming to the North with its emerging new industrial society challenged Margaret's former certainties and beliefs...

... sorry, rambling. 

Anyway, I'd be curious to know how you acually liked the series. 

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[–] laura1-07 8 years ago

Hi butaneggbert! 

Birds is right the Hales' situation didn't change much while they were in Milton. Mr Hale continued with his paying private students, who he saw at home. Also Mrs Hale probably had a little money from her family. It isn't mentioned in the series (I don't think) but in the book we are told that they have £170 a year (although they send £70 of that to Frederick).

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[–] loislane703 8 years ago

Well, here's the thing butaneggbert. Regarding the Hales, you have to bear in mind their financial situation in comparison with which particular part of their society exactly you want to compare.

When comparing to the poor of the Milton, they certainly were better off than those folks. But when comparing to the elite of Milton, they weren't....and that's the thing.....considering the class they represented i.e the gentry (vicars/parsons were "gentlemen"), they weren't wealthy.

And considering that Mr Hale was only a tutor now and no longer a vicar, it was actually a step-down for them even in terms of their class and thus, financial standing (vicars had a regular income even if it were meager). Mr Hale only had the income from his tutoring to tide them over and it was just not enough.

Margaret's change purse although indicative of a better social standing than the Milton poor also is meant to show that she was giving away to charity even the little that she couldn't really afford to. That was credit to her Christian nature from her Christian faith and higher social upbringing.

To be honest, her clothing is not nice compared to say someone like Fanny, who would have been considered her equal (on the surface) or even her cousin Edith (who she grew up with). Their silks and lace were better than her shabby cotton/wool. Even Bessy makes fun of her dress. That shows that the Hales weren't living as well as they ought to be for their class. Mr Hale's position pushed them below in the social order of society that they couldn't even afford the nicer things....and in Milton, lesser so than their time in Helstone.

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[–] birds_14 8 years ago

To be honest, her clothing is not nice compared to say someone like Fanny, who would have been considered her equal (on the surface) or even her cousin Edith (who she grew up with). Their silks and lace were better than her shabby cotton/wool. Even Bessy makes fun of her dress.

I don't think that Margaret's day dresses were actually shabby; but they have made me wonder... Do you think that they were meant to look deliberately countrified? Practical and entirely suitable for the Helstone parson's daughter to walk along mud roads in pursuit of charitable works? If so, they'd look inappropriate in a large town like Milton even if they were good quality (like wearing a Barbour jacket for office work). And maybe that's where the straw hat comes in--when all the other Milton ladies wear bonnets. 

After all, Margaret was meant to permanently move from London to rural Helstone, not to another town, and when Bessie teases her about that (admittedly rather awful) mauve/taupe dress--the one she wears in a lot of scenes--she answers that she had it made only the year before. But under the new circumstances she couldn't have afforded to change her wardrobe back to a more urban look.

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[–] birds_14 8 years ago

I deleted this paragraph from my previous post...

"By contrast, the silk dresses she retained from her London life and which she takes to show to her mother the day Mr Bell arrives (one pink--she wore that one at Edith's wedding--and the sleeveless greenish one she eventually wears for the dinner party) would probably be quite up to date for the occasion; quite likely 'provincial' Milton would be a little behind in the latest fashions anyway."

... because on second thought there's something slightly 'off' about Margaret's evening gown for the dinner party as well. It seems a bit too bare around the shoulders for the occasion, i.e. dinner. That kind of cleavage along with the ruffled straps across the shoulders you'd rather expect in a ball gown (and with long white gloves). But since she only had a choice between this gown or the pink silk day dress, the green one might simply have been the lesser of two evils. I wonder if she's meant to regret her choice the moment she sees how covered up Ann Latimer is. 

Fanny's evening gown is interesting too. Though sleeveless it's a bit more 'covering', but with too much detail and an unflattering neckline. But then, Fanny's dresses, though obviously good quality, always tend to be a little OTT.

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[–] loislane703 8 years ago

Do you think that they were meant to look deliberately countrified? Practical and entirely suitable for the Helstone parson's daughter to walk along mud roads in pursuit of charitable works?

I don't know if it was "countrified" on purpose Birds, but I do believe her clothes was meant to show the contrast between her (financial) situation and those of her equal in society. Yes, they were practical for her, given her situation. I'm actually not sure if they were practical for charitable works per se Birds, but that was what she could afford; therefore, that was the best she could wear for everyday life.

And maybe that's where the straw hat comes in--when all the other Milton ladies wear bonnets.

Margaret did have a bonnet. But she didn't wear it often. We do see it in her winter scenes I believe.

...and when Bessie teases her about that (admittedly rather awful) mauve/taupe dress--the one she wears in a lot of scenes-- ...

That's the "shabby" dress I was referring to in my earlier post Birds. 

Regarding her silk dresses, I do think they weren't "up to date" in terms of the fashion style. Just like some of us can't afford that latest McQueen or Beckham dress for a dinner party, it might have been the same for her. They might have been older in style even if they were newer dresses for her. Even though they were new and the best she had, it might not have been the appropriate choice for that particular dinner party had she been able to afford more.

You can see the change in her wardrobe as soon as she gets the inheritance from Mr Bell. Her dresses then are much better and more suitable for everyday life given her class and fortune and much more appropriate because she could afford more now.

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[–] laura1-07 8 years ago

That kind of cleavage along with the ruffled straps across the shoulders you'd rather expect in a ball gown (and with long white gloves).

It does seem rather revealing.

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[–] loislane703 8 years ago

That kind of cleavage along with the ruffled straps across the shoulders you'd rather expect in a ball gown (and with long white gloves).

-------------------

It does seem rather revealing.

To me the fact that Mrs T too was wearing something similar indicates that that was the general popular style (give or take a few years) in terms of fashion. Of course, Mrs T being a widow was much more modest while Margaret's dress being as young as she, featured her assets on display as with most young women I suppose.

http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0788.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

Similar to this: http://omgthatdress.tumblr.com/post/148297434775/evening-dress-1845-the-kyoto-costume-institute and this: http://omgthatdress.tumblr.com/post/125548947670/evening-ensemble-1850s-kerry-taylor-auctions

Even Fanny is bearing a bit of cleavage and a similar cut of dress:http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0807.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

It is actually very similar to Margaret's, with the added flair. I suppose the fashion didn't change much from 1845-1850 (as seen in the links I've added above).

I wish we could see the entire front of Ann's dress but here she too has a bit of cleavage going on: http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0874.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

Another young lady also at the party in a similar revealing gown: http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0906.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

So in fact, Margaret's dress might be in keeping with the popular fashion of the general time period (+/- 5 years) even in terms of how revealing it was and also taking into account that it was not a brand new dress made just for the occasion.

http://www.victoriana.com/Fashion/victorianclothing/victoriangowns.html

http://www.victoriana.com/Fashion/victorianclothing/victoriandress1840.html

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[–] laura1-07 8 years ago

To me the fact that Mrs T too was wearing something similar indicates that that was the general popular style (give or take a few years) in terms of fashion.

I always thought that Mrs T dress although more modest was a little young for her age. But if that was the style for all women. 

Even Fanny is bearing a bit of cleavage and a similar cut of dress:http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0807.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

I think that Margaret's dress seems more revealing to me because it seems to push up more.

I wish we could see the entire front of Ann's dress but here she too has a bit of cleavage going on: http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0874.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

Thanks for that Lois. When Birds mentioned Ann's dress, I couldn't remember what it looked like and you don't really get a clear view of it in the series.

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[–] merej 8 years ago

]I think that Margaret's dress seems more revealing to me because it seems to push up more.

or because it's got more to push up to begin with

After all is said and done, a lot more will have been said than done.

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[–] loislane703 8 years ago

Thanks for that Lois. When Birds mentioned Ann's dress, I couldn't remember what it looked like and you don't really get a clear view of it in the series.

You're welcome Laura. 

We get to see the back of Ann's dress a bit clearer: http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0818.jpg?action=big&size=resize

...and she was wearing short white gloves with it (as seen in a couple of frames down).

Here's a better view of that other young lady in her off-shoulder number: http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%202/NS2004-EP2--0812.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

or because it's got more to push up to begin with

 Exactly merej! 

What I didn't really pay attention to before was the fact that Ann too wears a straw hat during Fanny's wedding (I thought it was just Margaret being Margaret ): http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%204/NS2004-EP4--0772.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

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[–] loislane703 8 years ago

What I didn't really pay attention to before was the fact that Ann too wears a straw hat during Fanny's wedding (I thought it was just Margaret being Margaret ): http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%204/NS2004-EP4--0772.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

I never really paid attention to Ann's hats before but another instance where Ann wears her hat is during the Great Exhibition scenes:

http://northandsouth2004.com/Gallery/index.php/Film%20Screencaps/North%20and%20South%20Episode%203/NS2004-EP3--0706.jpg?action=big&size=resize&fromthumbnail=true

👒

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[–] laura1-07 8 years ago

I never really paid attention to Ann's hats before but another instance where Ann wears her hat is during the Great Exhibition scenes:

Well spotted yourself Lois. 

And so straw hats were obviously popular with all the young ladies.

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[–] birds_14 8 years ago

Awe, thanks for all the research, Lois. 

Actually, the reason I started going on about costumes on this thread was that I wondered about the background story for Margaret's costumes...

In the interview (on DVD) RA mentions that (one of) his trousers had a patch from being mended--and that details like this helped him to think about his costumes more in terms of real clothes.

I suppose that most costume designers--like in fact most creative people--work conceptually, at least for the main characters and for their signature clothing, and create a kind of story... and so I wondered if the awful mauve/ taupe dress (which has a kind of wool-y / tweet-y look) was meant to be 'country casuals', along with the cotton print dress (1970s Laura Ashley style ), and if this might be the reason why Margaret wears straw hats most of the time when no-one else in Milton does... (well... Ann does, once)

Likewise I wondered if the back-story for the greenish evening dress might have been that it was originally made for a London ball, or a night at the opera.. I never meant to imply that there is something wrong as such about the style of Margaret's dress for the dinner party in terms of not being appropriate to the period (because I know faaaar too little about costume history to judge).

Only, I've got a notion that, if Margaret had had a choice between more than two dresses (and with one of them fairly screaming 'bridesmaid!' ) or if she had one made specially, the greenish one wouldn't have been her first choice for the occasion. Her dress catches the eye at the Thorntons' dinner party because it is many things at once: it's off the shoulders and it barely covers the upper arms and it is not black. I don't think that it would have been Margaret's intention to draw special attention to herself by choosing a dress that 'sticks out'. Fanny yes, but Margaret--no.

Anyway, all this was just idle speculation (and not backed by any actual research) on my part... 

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[–] loislane703 8 years ago

I never meant to imply that there is something wrong as such about the style of Margaret's dress for the dinner party in terms of not being appropriate to the period (because I know faaaar too little about costume history to judge).

No, Birds; I understood you. But you felt it might have been more appropriate as a ball gown rather than for a dinner party. And after looking into some of the typical fashions for that time, I used what I found to back up the idea that it was appropriate wear for a dinner party.

Only, I've got a notion that, if Margaret had had a choice between more than two dresses (and with one of them fairly screaming 'bridesmaid!' ) or if she had one made specially, the greenish one wouldn't have been her first choice for the occasion.

 Absolutely! I agree. That what I was saying too in my earlier post. If she could afford more, she'd have worn a different dress. Not because of the style or colour but because that's how young women expanded their wardrobe. The pink bridesmaid dress IMO was far too simple actually; she looked like a little girl in it! LOL.

Her dress catches the eye at the Thorntons' dinner party because it is many things at once: it's off the shoulders and it barely covers the upper arms and it is not black.

But Birds, that was the point I was trying to make....that the dress style of the time was "off-shoulder" evidenced by the other young women's dresses at that particular party and the links I provided. Granted her sleeves are much shorter than most. Ann too wears what is a gold dress but with black detailing.

I however don't think there is a rule that the dresses had to be black for such a party...so . That might have been a deliberate attempt by the costume designers of the series to make Margaret stand out compared to the other young women in attendance. Fanny and Margaret as principle cast were made more "colourful" in turn so our eyes perhaps are more drawn to them.

ETA: I'm having trouble logging out too Birds from the main page; it doesn't do anything after it circles for a bit. Have to go to my profile page to log out. 

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[–] laura1-07 8 years ago

or because it's got more to push up to begin with

True. 

Only, I've got a notion that, if Margaret had had a choice between more than two dresses (and with one of them fairly screaming 'bridesmaid!' ) or if she had one made specially, the greenish one wouldn't have been her first choice for the occasion.

I’ve only just realised that the pink dress she carries down with the other one to show to her mother was her bridesmaid dress. Still learning something new after all these years. 

ETA:
I like how this thread has developed. I hope the OP comes back to post.

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[–] birds_14 8 years ago

That might have been a deliberate attempt by the costume designers of the series to make Margaret stand out compared to the other young women in attendance. Fanny and Margaret as principle cast were made more "colourful" in turn so our eyes perhaps are more drawn to them.

You're probably right, Lois, and I've been barking up the wrong tree all along ... Thank you for indulging me. 

Btw, I still can't log out the usual way, even though IMDb was shut down for maintenance earlier today--but apparently their didn't fix this problem.

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[–] butaneggbert 7 years ago

Thanks for all the feedback and info.

Excellent series, I'm glad to have found it.

_______________

Nothing to see here, move along.