Writers & Readers Café


Welcome to the "Writers & Readers Café"! This is a cozy, warm place where those who enjoy writing and those who enjoy reading can meet for fellowship and great coffee!

Writers,✒ feel free to share aspects of your craft with the other café patrons! There's no limit to what we can learn from each other. Possible points of discussion?

-Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your ideas?
-Favorite genres.
-Narration vs. Dialogue: finding the balance.
-Getting to the point: more is not necessarily better.
-Engaging the reader in the story.
-Vocabulary: plain or fancy
-Love scenes
-Writer's Block 
-Personal challenges. 
-Etc, etc!

Readers, 📑please share your personal favorites, published or unpublished!
-Tell us why you chose these works. How did the story/writer make you feel?
-Share styles and genres that you prefer and those you don't.
-Share your ideas for new plots that you would like to see attempted (this is how I got started).
-If you've just read a book/short story/passage particularly well written, please share it (if space allows) and tell us why you approve.
-Etc. etc.

These are just a few ideas, ladies! The possibilities are endless! Feel free to offer suggestions!

Hopefully, this café will flourish; however, to differentiate it from the Homeless Thread, perhaps we should try to involve some aspect of writing or reading in our posts and save broader discussion for Cat's HT.

Well, I'm heading over to get a hot mugful of java!🏃 How about you?


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Hmmm...no one is here yet...I think I'll have a scone with my coffee. 

I'm currently perusing the "choose your ending" "Lost in Austen" e-book. It's amusing but very complicated...Oh here's someone now!

Hello! Glad you could make it! 

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Thanks for starting this thread Pat. I am making a quick morning visit to the Cafe before work. 

Readers, please share your personal favorites, published or unpublished



Well at the moment I am still completely lost in the world of the ‘Outlander’ books. 

-Tell us why you chose these pieces. How did they make you feel?


Well, I heard about the TV series first on the C19 Board because Graham McTavish had been cast in it. But it was you Pat who first mentioned how much you loved the books and got me interested in reading them. I am a big fan of time slip stories having read quite a few Barbara Erskine books, but these had completely passed me by. They have now become my favourite book series. They sometimes drive me mad with the inconsistencies but Diana Gabaldon is such a wonderful story teller and she really draws you into this world so that you feel like you are in a bubble when you are reading. She is a very descriptive writer. I find her books dramatic but also funny and romantic. I love reading the drama but also the mundane day to day stuff. I find her characters so well written, very human and three dimensional. And to top it off she has created two wonderful lead characters in Jamie and Claire. Jamie has rapidly become one of my favourite period drama heroes. I adore him.

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Thank you, Pat for starting this thread.

🍩 "Writers & Readers Café"
Good title!--and, double latte with coconut flavour right next to me, I'll get started with a provoking question:

Is fan fiction 'creepy'?

This is not my idea, mind you. Someone over at the Outlander board said that they'd find fan fiction creepy (in a thread about copyright issues).

Now, I do sometimes feel a bit of an imposter because I freely help myself to all the wonderful N&S character backgrounds created by Gaskell, and by the actors (and everybody else who participated in the process) of the mini-series, and just start happily writing away without doing the groundwork first...

But on the other hand I believe that without N&S I would likely never have started writing--and writing in English, as to that. So, to me fan fiction is simply a good way for a newbie of getting creative without having to bother about the context first. And don't we all remember with a shudder the terribly naïve compositions we did in our schooldays--because creating interesting yet convincing backgrounds is really, really hard.


So, I come to the next question:

Why is there so much fan fiction about N&S? ...

...considering that the book is mostly unknown even in English speaking countries (and as for beyond; there has never been a German translation, for example), and even many of the mini-series' audience came across it only by accident?

What do you think--what is it in N&S that inspires creativity?


On a final note--for now:

To write--or not to write...

Do give it a try, everyone, by all means! I know from my own beginnings that one tends to be very self-conscious at first ("The stuff I'm writing--it's never up to standard! People will just roll their eyes at me--if not laugh outright!"), but frankly, these days I just don't care one way or another; I find too much pleasure in the process of writing, and to have these plot lines, dialogues, and characters crop up in my mind--sometimes virtually out of nowhere--is too much fun to miss. So I keep writing, and posting--and I hope that the odd reader enjoys my stories, too.

I'm sure that there is much hidden talent on this board. We have lots of gems over at the "Short Stories and Poetry Wanted!!!!" thread. Laura with her limericks and haiku; and just recently--with "Guardian Angels"--she has given us a glimpse of her skill in writing prose.
Lois posted a wonderful haunting poem about George Thornton (late father of John), and I should wish that she'd eventually find her way towards writing more about him--I'd love to hear his side of the story!
Ima posted stories before; I hope that, once she's well again (We are thinking of you, Ima.  Get better soon!) and her life is back on track, she will have another go at it.

And as for all the occasional visitors and "lurkers" --please come forward, and join in!


EDIT: Morning, Laura! Parallel posts once again...

They [the Outlander books] sometimes drive me mad with the inconsistencies but Diana Gabaldon is such a wonderful story teller and she really draws you into this world

It's often in the quiet scenes where her style of writing really shines. And she writes wonderful dialogues, with thoughts weaving back and forth, and often taking an unexpected twist... I find that very inspiring. And I just love the humour in her books, as well.

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I love your list of possible topics, Pat!  First thoughts, though some points definitely require a more detailed answer or rather a proper discussion in the future...

-Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your son's will?
(Now what do you mean by that last question, Pat? Is this an English / American figure of speech?)
-Favorite genres.
As they come, and as the character and situation requires them. Personally, I love to try my hands on something different every so often (in particular with the short stories).
-Narration vs. Dialogue: finding the balance.
Definitely dialogues, the more the better!--If only because the language in dialogues is more simple, which helps to obscure my shortcomings in the English language. 
-Getting to the point: more is not necessarily better.
I suppose it's good to bear in mind that prospective readers of fan fiction do read fan fiction because they love the original, and can't get enough of it. So we can safely assume that readers are familiar with both the original story and the character backgrounds. Which is a great advantage in writing short stories, because we can just plunge headlong into the story without wasting time on tedious explanations.
-Engaging the reader in the story.
To tell the truth, I don't write for any potential readers, I write for myself--whatever I would like to read...
-Vocabulary: plain or fancy
ENGLISH!--Which says it all in my case... Well, there is a bit more to say about writing in a foreign language. I'll have to think it over, though...
-Love scenes
Oh gosh! Worst thing to write!--Not the kissing part, that's fairly straightforward, but the getting there; what draws two people to each other, what's the attraction?--and how to put it in words to make it appear credible?
-Writer's Block
Nope. Haven't experienced that yet. But then there's no pressure on me... no audience whose expectations I'd have to meet, no deadlines, no pressure to get the next chapter finished at long last (if only, because I never post a story before all of it is written and at least roughly edited).
-Personal challenges.
Constant.  ... 

... and finally, as an addition to the list:
-Research and historical accuracy
-Methods of writing:
chronological (from A to Z) vs. episodic (in 'bits and pieces')
-Character-centred vs. plot-driven

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Hi Laura and Birds! Congratulations for being the first visitors to the Café! A complementary pastry for you both! 

I'm on my way out the door and will drop in later. You've given me much to think about!

Before I go, however...

-Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your son's will?


 I have NO IDEA why or how I typed those words!!! I remember hurrying to get the cafe post started before I left work last night. Perhaps I typed something that was playing on the radio? I honestly was shocked to see those words!

 Your question made me chuckle, Birds, since I thought you were referring to: "'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash" , then I saw the rest of my comment and my jaw dropped! 

I am losing it!!!! 

Meet you here later, ladies! 

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Quick reply.

It's often in the quiet scenes where her style of writing really shines. And she writes wonderful dialogues, with thoughts weaving back and forth, and often taking an unexpected twist... I find that very inspiring. And I just love the humour in her books, as well.


Oh yes, and as I said I love how she makes even the mundane daily life occurrences so interesting. I think it is these scenes which helps make the characters so human to me. And I love the humour in these books best of all, it really helps balance out the bad things that happen.


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[I thought changing the heading based on the topic might be an easy way to 'pick up the thread'  of an ongoing discussion on that topic.]

First of all, I was very pleased at your responses to the OP, Laura and Birds! I would love to respond at length and as often as you do!  Unfortunately, I am ALWAYS interrupted here at work by customers and the phone (we just closed our doors and this is my first opportunity all day - 6 pm) or, at home, by my husband. I spend most of the evening between 8 and 10 o'clock - after cooking and cleaning the kitchen - typing invoices and proposals for our business, so until Dan goes to bed...I can't get ANYTHING done of my own. This is not a complaint (well, maybe just a little) ; it's just the way things are.

Enough of that. Birds your posts were chock full of great conversation starters! I had not expected you to respond to all of my suggestions right away! With my crazy life, I may have to choose to respond to one topic at a time! I loved your opening discussion about the creep-factor, some would say, of fan-fiction! Will say more on that in the next post! 

Laura, I'm so glad you (and you too, Birds) are enjoying Outlander. I had wondered if DG being American would put off natives of the UK and others. I think it a courageous thing to write historic fiction about the past of another nation. Writing about the history of one's own nation is difficult enough, since even historians don't always agree on the facts surrounding certain events, point of view being key. But to tamper with another country's treasured past? Misrepresentation of events, culture or national psyche, innocent as it may be, could call down the wrath of an entire nation! I'm sure DG has made enemies, but it's my impression that even many Scots are fans of her work. Phew! Disaster averted! The tv series may have something to do with her stories' acceptance there...though, if we go by the battles on the 'Outlander' board about its accuracy, content, violence, actors, etc., the show has its share of critics.

I have little to add to the comments both of you made on Outlander. I agree with them ALL! The drama, humor, dialogue and day-to-day life draw you into Jamie and Claire's world, their bubble, as you put it, Laura! Let me add, I've never read a body of work that affected me so deeply as 'Outlander'. The length and breadth of this story is epic; in consequence, the author has been able develop the main characters to such an extent that, to many, it seems as if they really exist(ed)! Now there's a story teller to emulate! 

I intend to re-read the books this fall/winter, so I'm sure other things will occur to me; the inconsistencies, for example. I don't remember noticing them during the reading, but perhaps I just forgot! That's not hard to imagine. Recall that I am 'influenced by my son's will'......sounds like the plot of a creepy story, eh? 

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Recall that I am 'influenced by my son's will'......sounds like the plot of a creepy story, eh? 
... and whose story could that possibly be--within the N&S universe??? 

I had not expected you to respond to all of my suggestions right away!
 I know, only most of them instantly rang a bell! But there is still so much more to say about most points...


I've changed the title once again... not everybody is into Outlander, but most people have something to say about 'escape literature'.

Back to Outlander first...

Does your Kindle edition of book 6 contain the interview with DG in the appendix too, Laura? The one where she talks about her method of writing? ...we talked about that before, I recall--Here's the link...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417349/board/thread/245090607?d=245466178#245466178
...but I also remember another thing DG said in that interview, namely that her book series was the first to her knowledge which explored the lives of a married couple at length. And that's another thing I like about Outlander and DG's writing, that she explores into some depth what might make a relationship work over the years...
Anyway. I don't know about DG's personal knowledge, but upon reading this part in the interview I've been vividly reminded of a French 13 part book series (started in the 1950ies), also historical fiction and about a married couple--it was a big noise over here in the 1970ies and 80ies when a couple of sequels were published: Angélique.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417349/board/thread/247488870
There's no time travel element in that, but the plot shows some remarkable parallels--more in the reading than in the Wiki summary... which might be pure chance, and I don't know if this ever was a bestseller in Anglo-Saxon countries.

Some more multi-book escape literature (excluding crime fiction, because there the choice is endless):

EDIT: The All Souls Trilogy (Deborah Harkness) - time travel and fantasy. Laura had mentioned it first on the HT thread last year
Harry Potter - of course
Poldark (Winston Graham), I suppose although I never got further than book 1. How do you actually like it, Pat?

What else? 

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Pat said:

I've never read a body of work that affected me so deeply as 'Outlander'. The length and breadth of this story is epic; in consequence, the author has been able develop the main characters to such an extent that, to many, it seems as if they really exist(ed)! Now there's a story teller to emulate! 


I totally agree Pat. I have never been so affected by a body of work either. And whatever her faults DG is one of the most talented storyteller I have ever read. I will always love her for creating Jamie alone. 

I intend to re-read the books this fall/winter, so I'm sure other things will occur to me; the inconsistencies, for example. I don't remember noticing them during the reading,  but perhaps I just forgot!


Well, I think I forget a lot but there a few name changes and continuity errors.
Does your Kindle edition of book 6 contain the interview with DG in the appendix too, Laura? The one where she talks about her method of writing? ...we talked about that before, I recall--Here's the link...


Yes, this is spooky, but I was just coming on here to say the same thing. Especially when one of the topics you suggested was:

-Methods of writing: chronological (from A to Z) vs. episodic (in 'bits and pieces')


I remembered when I read that interview about how you talked about it somewhere and said that you wondered if her writing in ‘isolated episodes’ may contribute to the continuity errors and I agree. btw Thanks for finding the link. I thought it was somewhere in the ‘HT’ thread, not the ‘Outlander’ one, so I would never have found it. LOL! I wonder if any other writers work like this.

..but I also remember another thing DG said in that interview, namely that her book series was the first to her knowledge which explored the lives of a married couple at length. And that's another thing I like about Outlander and DG's writing, that she explores into some depth what might make a relationship work over the years...


Again, I was about to say the same. How refreshing not just to read the story of how a couple maintain a good marriage over the course of a lifetime but also just the fact of reading about an older hero and heroine, which doesn’t happen often. I wonder if younger readers are still interested in reading these stories as the couple get older.

Did you read that interesting intervier at the end of the 6th book as well Pat?

The All Saints Trilogy (Deborah Harkness) - time travel and fantasy.


Yes, another favourite of mine. Have you read these Pat?

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Yes, this is spooky, but I was just coming on here to say the same thing.
Telepathy??? 

I remembered when I read that interview about how you talked about it somewhere and said that you wondered if her writing in ‘isolated episodes’ may contribute to the continuity errors and I agree.
The reason why I thought so was that I did write all my own multi-chapter stories in 'bits and pieces', and it took me ages to weed out all the errors which occurred in consequence (that's another of the reasons why I edit so often after posting)... and to imagine what it takes to find all the continuity errors in a novel ten times as long (or more), if that's your method of writing!  Little wonder some remained in the published book... On the other hand, I think writing in episodes helps to create scenes that stand out--and those are the scenes that stay with us readers in these big books.

Sorry, I got the title of Deborah Harkness's book series wrong again, it's All Souls Trilogy not All Saints Trilogy--I get that wrong every time, because while both are Catholic religious holidays, only All Saints' Day is celebrated throughout Germany, so it's the better known amongst the two.

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On the other hand, I think writing in episodes helps to create scenes that stand out--and those are the scenes that stay with us readers in these big books.


I agree. 

On the subject of time slip stories, another one I liked a lot was 'Banishment' by Dinah Lampitt. In this one a thoroughly modern woman is hyponotized and finds herself in the body of a younger woman at the time of the English Civil War.

Sorry, I got the title of Deborah Harkness's book series wrong again, it's All Souls Trilogy not All Saints Trilogy


It shows I was half-asleep this morning because I didn't even notice.  On this subject I hope the BBC get around the making this series soon. I'm still hopeful for RA to get the part of Matthew Clairmont.

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How refreshing not just to read the story of how a couple maintain a good marriage over the course of a lifetime but also just the fact of reading about an older hero and heroine, which doesn’t happen often. I wonder if younger readers are still interested in reading these stories as the couple get older.

Those younger than 30 probably think (just like I did at that age) that people's life freezes at about 40, and nothing much happens thereafter worth the telling--except for corrupt politicians. But if they consider Claire and Jamie an oddity, then there is always the next Outlander generation (Bree et al.) for them to identify with...

Being now 48 myself, I'm ever so grateful for an older hero and heroine who still have an interesting life, in every respect. 

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I agree that it's refreshing to read a piece about a couple who love deeply through the years or even a piece about an older couple who fall in love. I loved writing 'A Song and a Dream' for that reason, though it's temporarily hidden from view here, it's my favorite story (of mine, that is). I once asked my mother how old she 'felt on the inside'. Without hesitation, she replied 22 or 23. She was 90 at the time. Who we are inside doesn't alter so much, though, hopefully, we've grown in experience and wisdom.

Those younger than 30 probably think (just like I did at that age) that people's life freezes at about 40, and nothing much happens thereafter worth the telling-
I remember thinking that as well, Birds, but how wrong I was...

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I agree that it's refreshing to read a piece about a couple who love deeply through the years or even a piece about an older couple who fall in love.


Also a couple who meet when young, survive such a long separation (still loving each other) and then when reunited love continue to love each other as an older couple just as deeply.

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Birds asked:

Why is there so much fan fiction about N&S? ...

...considering that the book is mostly unknown even in English speaking countries (and as for beyond; there has never been a German translation, for example), and even many of the mini-series' audience came across it only by accident?

What do you think--what is it in N&S that inspires creativity?


I agree with what you said to Pat the other day on her fanfic thread, that because of the story's abrupt ending (in the book and the series) it feels that there is unfinished business and that John and Margaret's story has just begun with so much more to tell.

The first place I read N&S fanfic, apart from on here, was over on the C19 website and there is just tons of it over there, more than any other kind. Most of the continuing stores follow on from the series, but some the book. Also, as well as stories where writers continue the story, there are ones which re-tell it in different times and settings. There just seems to be something about this couple and their story that people love and are inspired by.

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Birds said:

This is not my idea, mind you. Someone over at the Outlander board said that they find fan fiction creepy (in a thread about copyright issues).

Now, I do sometimes feel a bit of an imposter because I freely help myself to all the wonderful N&S character backgrounds created by Gaskell, and by the actors (and everybody else who participated in the process) of the mini-series, and just start happily writing away without doing the groundwork first...
I, too, have heard this line of talk on other threads over the years, Birds. Basically, they say, "Why can't you write an original story and not rest on the laurels of someone else?" Nine times out of ten, these comments are made by those who haven't written anything and have no idea how challenging it is.

I wager that a majority this generation's top writers' early attempts utilized varying degrees of imitation of their favorite writers' works, be it by imagining a sequel, adopting a similar plot line or by borrowing an interesting feature from the original they love. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, it is said. We have to begin somehow. Like young children, we toddle along with one hand gripping our parent's finger, until we learn to balance, to walk and then, to run. Rare is it that someone's first attempts are exceptional. The goal for most of us, I assume, is to improve in skill and, perhaps, to attempt an original work; but until then, we practice; and practice, hopefully, makes perfect.

So, I come to the next question:

Why is there so much fan fiction about N&S? ...

...considering that the book is mostly unknown even in English speaking countries (and as for beyond; there has never been a German translation, for example), and even many of the mini-series' audience came across it only by accident?

What do you think--what is it in N&S that inspires creativity?


This is only a theory, but I doubt we would have seen the flurry of N&S based stories if the tv mini-series had never been attempted and if we did not live during this age of global communication. First, that visually compelling, brooding tale of misery and unrequited love accomplished most of it. Not to mention the magnetic performance of one Richard Armitage. The screen story (and he) captured the hearts of many a fair lady in a way that the book - as gripping as it is - could not do to such a limited audience. Then, in consequence of N&S's first airing on tv and magnified during this age of blogs and websites and video streams, the magic happened. Viewers(and the media) began discussing the amazing series and encouraging others to view it. For some, writing a sequel to the series for their friends was a natural desire to prolong its mesmerizing effect. As in my case, and in yours, Birds, I think, we received wonderful encouragement to continue and...Voila! Those who never considered writing found they could produce something of interest, even of quality, though not yet ready to go without the comfort of the structure of the original story. But one day................an original story idea arrives unbidden!

Laura said:
I agree with what you said to Pat the other day on her fanfic thread, that because of the story's abrupt ending (in the book and the series) it feels that there is unfinished business and that John and Margaret's story has just begun with so much more to tell.
This is probably true, but I couldn't help thinking of one of the 'alternative endings' to P&P in the e-book,"Lost in Austen" where Elizabeth decides not to marry Darcy because every romance she'd ever read ended with a proposal, a marriage and a big THE END - as if life for the heroine ceased to exist after the marriage. 

Almost all romance movies/books end quite abruptly when the main characters come together, resolve their differences, declare their love and marry. There was something exceptional about N&S, however. Personally, I think it was the darkness of the drama, especially RA's riveting performance, which struck a specific chord with the public and made us not want to leave him and Margaret ever.

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This is only a theory, but I doubt we would have seen the flurry of N&S based stories if the tv mini-series had never been attempted and if we did not live during this age of global communication.

Of course. Fan fiction is very much a phenomena of the 21st century and came up on a larger scale with the internet and social media. The TV series in 2004 hit a nerve at the right time--and definitely largely due to RA.

But still, Margaret Hale's story is incomplete in a way that e.g. Elizabeth Bennet's or Jane Eyre's are not. Those novels give us an outlook on their heroines' married lives in the end, however short. But even if this wasn't so, there are still not as many loose ends as in Margaret's case... The latter will have to come to terms not only with married life, but with a less than enthusiastic mother-in-law, Milton society (where she'd been an outsider before) and making friends there (apart from Nicholas and Mary), plus finding some occupation for herself (I just can't see her as a full-time housewife--she is a 'do-gooder', after all).

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But still, Margaret Hale's story is incomplete in a way that e.g. Elizabeth Bennet's or Jane Eyre's are not.


Yes, I agree. But also, John's story as well. We want to know if he will rebuild Marlborough Mills back to its former glory.

N&S fanfic was the first that I read. I just couldn't get enough of it, especially the continuing story ones because I just wanted to know what happened next.

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Yes, I agree. But also, John's story as well. We want to know if he will rebuild Marlborough Mills back to its former glory.

Yes, of course we want to know that. And also how he fares with suddenly having two strong-minded women not only in his life but under his roof... Will it all turn out well, or will he feel stuck between a rock and a hard place? 

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Yes, of course we want to know that. And also how he fares with suddenly having two strong-minded women not only in his life but under his roof... Will it all turn out well, or will he feel stuck between a rock and a hard place? 


Yes, I like to think whilst trying not to get stuck in the middle he would take the side of his new wife over his mother, especially while she adjusts to living with Mrs T.

I like to imagine John as a father as well. From what we see of the interaction with young Tommy in the series, I bet he will make a great one. 

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I like to imagine John as a father as well.

...and thers's that.  Do you happen to know any N&S fan fiction which goes that far into the future, Laura? (thinking not of babies but school age kids, who are a very different challenge, after all... )

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Do you happen to know any N&S fan fiction which goes that far into the future, Laura?


Not off the top of my head. The stories I've read don't tend to go that far into the future. 'A Heart For Milton' by Trudy Brasure has a epilogue where the children are older but it is only short and doesn't really go into any great detail.

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(Outwardly) tough guys and kids... Which brings us back to Outlander--Quite a few of my favourite scenes from the books are those with Jamie and some children; either strange ones, his nieces and nephews, or his grandson... and those few scenes with his own son William, of course.

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I agree. I think DG writes children very well and the scenes of Jamie with children are always a joy. Such a shame we never got to see him interact with Brianna as a child as well.

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Also a couple who meet when young, survive such a long separation (still loving each other) and then when reunited love continue to love each other as an older couple just as deeply.


Yes, that too, Laura! I had an aunt who, after being a widow for 15 years, received a phone call from her first boyfriend as a teenager. They eventually, married, fifty years after their early romance - not quite the story of passion of Jamie and Claire, but early love can survive and resurface in the latter years.

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That's a lovely story, Pat.  All the more so because it's real.

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That's a lovely story, Pat. All the more so because it's real.
Which story is that, Birds? The one about my aunt? Yes, it was considered unusual in our family that she was still on the mind of an old boyfriend, Gus, after so many years. Gus was her third husband (#1: divorce; #2, deceased; #3, deceased; and then there was her 'live in boyfried' at age 86 , Chris, deceased). Aunt Rita went through husbands/beaux like paper towels! 

ETA: I'm sure that bit of info ruined the loveliness of her story. 

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Uuuh... better and better--A real femme fatale!  Though admittedly, the loveliness of the story has suffered a little just now... 

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So much food for thought in your suggestions for possible topics of discussion, Pat ... I've got a few ideas on the following points, and how they concern me:

- Narration vs. dialogue: finding the balance
- Vocabulary: plain or fancy
- Character-centred vs. plot-driven
(as an additional topic)

For me, all these are closely linked.

It won't come as a surprise if I say that I lack the vocabulary, let alone the actual skill, to write long descriptive or introspective passages or do some in-depth character analysis anyone--including myself--would care to read for entertainment (with the exception of doing awkward/peevish girls... having had much experience at being a wallflower in my own teenage years), so I simply have to 'make do' with plot-based storytelling... which as a rule seems to come with an emphasis on dialogue rather than narration.

And I just love dialogues... and not only because the language in dialogues tends to be more simple. It's rather that I feel the story comes alive and 'immediate' with the first dialogue; before that it's mostly prelude, however beautifully written. But that's personal preferences. 

I suppose, sometimes limitations can be an asset. A plain, or even blunt, language is one of the restrictions to be faced when writing in a foreign language (unless someone's actually bi-lingual--which I am not!). But although originating from necessity, it may be the right 'voice' for some stories--but not for others... So I better keep my hands off writing what requires a more intuitive native speaker's touch, and I try to concentrate on those things in a story that work independently of the actual language--such as plot, structure, and pace.

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I'm not keen on long drawn out narrative, but I enjoy good descriptive writing. Going back to DG, that is something I love about her writing and I think it is that which really helps pulls me into her world, as she describes things so well. But I also love dialogue for the same reason you say Birds, that it makes the story more alive.

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When Cat and I began writing 'side by side', I couldn't help remarking at our different styles. My comfort zone was explaining the thoughts/feelings of a character through detailed narration. Hopefully, I didn't bore anyone; though, I received many compliments back then that it was as if I 'lived in John's head'. I felt I did live there, so well did I experience his emotions.

Cat, on the other hand, was the queen of dialogue. It poured out of her like water from a waterfall. That's how we grew to know and love her characters so well. I was a bit envious and really tried to interject more dialogue, while she tried to include more narration. I think she succeeded in her quest better than I did! Catriona, in real life, was quite chatty. While I am more of a thinker/listener. Each style has its place if it holds the reader's attention, but there's always room for experimentation and growth no matter the style.

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There is a German proverb which roughly translates into, "Sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees in your way", meaning that occasionally the small details arrest your attention too much, and so you can't see the general idea.

This is what often happens with me when reading English narration, or in an extensive discussion in English. Descriptive writing tends to include a lot of unfamiliar vocabulary, along with frequently quite complex structures. So, a lot of my attention is required to look up the actual words, or make sense of individual sentences--and this way I often grasp at isolated ideas but fail to get the big picture... Add to that missing punctuation, and you've got me lost at sea!

So, I struggle with difficulties your average English reader doesn't encounter, Pat... That's just to illustrate that you shouldn't mind me and my opinions in matters of narration vs. dialogue.

And I agree with you on writing inside one's comfort zone (the odd challenge notwithstanding)--there simply is no other way to do it, or not for a newbie, at least...

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My comfort zone was explaining the thoughts/feelings of a character through detailed narration. Hopefully, I didn't bore anyone; though, I received many compliments back then that it was as if I 'lived in John's head'. I felt I did live there, so well did I experience his emotions.


I loved/love both Cat and your styles of writing. In particular I think yours works so incredibly well for 'Homeward Bound'. It is certainly not boring. I remember one of my first comments was that I always wondered what was going through John's mind during that journey and you explained it perfectly.

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Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time.  How have your surroundings influenced your ideas?

Probably the most natural way for anyone to start with N&S fan fiction is to image what happens next, right after that gorgeous kiss. 💏 While they are on the train. When they arrive in Milton. How Hannah and Margaret's relatives react to the news... That is, if one hasn't read any N&S fan fiction yet.

Once you have, you can't help realising that a lot of fan fictions are sequels, starting right at that point. And that's when things get less straightforward...

I was lucky to have made a start on my own N&S universe before I ever read any fan fiction about Margaret and John (and Hannah)... but I have read most of what's on this board since (though not all of it 'in depth'), and a couple of others besides. So, these days--unless they tangent my existing stories--I tend to steer clear of the main characters and write about the secondary ones... and fortunately many of them are depicted beautifully in the novel and/or the TV series. That's why I took on Fanny, for example; no-one else here seemed particularly keen on her! 

(EDIT: I deleted what I'd written on inspiration for short stories here... there's quite enough in the next post.)


What have been your experiences with finding inspirations, Pat? You mentioned before that someone came to you with the general storyline for 'Unfailing Love'... but I can't remember any particulars.

And how do those of you who mostly do poetry get started?

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I've been thinking some more about 'inspirations'...

I rarely take inspiration from day-to-day occurrences in my life, I think. I mostly start with just wanting to write, and with deciding on the character to write about, and the story more or less comes in a flash. So, in retrospect it's difficult to tell what actually influenced my stories; except in the case of my two most recent 'shorts'.

In another post I already mentioned how exactly Beekeeper (featuring Dixon) came about:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417349/board/thread/178532505?d=246102110#246102110

Anyway, here's the story behind the story...

I actually felt like trying to write a detective story for some time now--and I wondered if there could be one hidden somewhere in N&S... 

So I came up with that picture in my mind of Dixon sneaking along the streets after Leonards, like a Victorian Miss Marple (Margaret Rutherford kind of style). I knew what she was to discover--because what else was there?--and I even had the pastries in place. What I didn't have was a story worth the telling.

So I thought that I'd just keep it as a fragment for future reference... 

While checking on the phrases and proverbs I had used (I generally do this to avoid absurd misquotes) I realised that I actually had several 'bee' expressions amongst them: 'bee-line', 'bee in her bonnet' and 'bee's knees'. Now, 2 may still be random, but 3 is definitely a pattern.

It looked like I had bees  in my story--for what it was worth.

But since the bees had invaded, I thought I'd better check them up on Wikipedia, too. And there I came across that link for 'Telling the bees'… and suddenly I did have a story, after all! 


And with the latest one... Once I'd settled on the character and a very general outline, two literary references popped up. And so, Mr Bell's story The Southern Cross was effectively inspired by a quote from the book, and fragments of a German poem:

Well! He had known what love was--a sharp pang, a fierce experience, in the midst of whose flames he was struggling! but, through that furnace he would fight his way out into the serenity of middle age,--all the richer and more human for having known this great passion.

(John Thornton in N&S, chapter 40 'Out of Tune')

As every blossom fades
and all youth sinks into old age,
so every life's design,
each flower of wisdom,
every good attains its prime
and cannot last forever.
...
A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us,
tells us how to live.
...
Maybe death's hour too
will send us out new-born
towards undreamed lands,
maybe life's call to us
will never find an end.

Courage my heart,
take leave and fare thee well.


Excerpts from 'Steps' / 'Stufen' (in one of its numerous English translations)
from "The Glass Bead Game" by German poet Hermann Hesse


Research for The Southern Cross (I haven't deleted the bookmarks yet, so it has been easy to sum up):

- http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/royalmail.shtml
- "British Mercantile Houses in Buenos Aires, 1810-1880" by Vera Blinn Reber, p. 74 ff
- Various Wikipedia pages on: Royal Mail Steam Packet Company / RMS Amazon / Crux / Adam (see etymology)

I actually really like research  because quite frequently it leads not only to an exciting discovery but to something which--'bingo!'--gives a whole new twist to the story and subsequently becomes an essential part of it...

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As every blossom fades
and all youth sinks into old age,
so every life's design,
each flower of wisdom,
every good attains its prime
and cannot last forever.
...
A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us,
tells us how to live.
...
Maybe death's hour too
will send us out new-born
towards undreamed lands,
maybe life's call to us
will never find an end.

Courage my heart,
take leave and fare thee well.


Excerpts from 'Steps' / 'Stufen' (in one of its numerous English translations)
from "The Glass Bead Game" by German poet Hermann Hesse


That poem is beautiful Birds.

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Hermann Hesse became quite popular in the late 60ies and in the 70ies, in the wake of the student and esoteric movements... As a writer of prose I find him a bit odd, but that particular poem is actually quite well-known, especially for the bit I'm going to put in italics.

Here's two very different English versions (both complete) of the same German poem, it's actually really difficult to translate--There's not even total agreement over the title; sometimes it's called 'Steps', and then again 'Stages' (both meanings being possible for the German title 'Stufen'). 

Steps

Like ev'ry flower wilts, like youth is fading
and turns to age, so also one's achieving:
Each virtue and each wisdom needs parading
in one's own time, and must not last forever.
The heart must be, at each new call for leaving,
prepared to part and start without the tragic,
without the grief - with courage to endeavor
a novel bond, a disparate connection:
for each beginning bears a special magic
that nurtures living and bestows protection.


We'll walk from space to space in glad progression
and should not cling to one as homestead for us.
The cosmic spirit will not bind nor bore us;
it lifts and widens us in ev'ry session:
for hardly set in one of life's expanses
we make it home, and apathy commences.
But only he, who travels and takes chances,
can break the habits' paralyzing stances.

It might be, even, that the last of hours
will make us once again a youthful lover:
The call of life to us forever flowers...
Anon, my heart: Say farewell and recover!

Steps

At life’s each call the heart must be
prepared/ to take its leave and to
commence afresh,/ courageously
and with no hint of grief/ submit
itself to other, newer ties./ A magic
dwells in each beginning and/
protecting us it tells us how to live./


High-purposed we must traverse
realm on realm,/ cleaving to none as
to a home. The world/ of spirit
wishes not to fetter us/ but raise us
higher, further, step by step./

Scarce in some safe accustomed
sphere of life/ have we established
house, than we grow lax;/ he only
who is ready to inspan/ and journey
forth can throw old habits off./

Maybe death’s hour too will send us
out/ new-born toward undreamed-of
lands, maybe/ life’s call to us will
never find an end…/ Courage, my
heart, take leave and fare thee well!

...I'm not sure about 'inspan', though.  Anyway, there are many more versions to be found online, but these two show quite well how far apart some translations / interpretations are. The one I quoted in the other post is somewhere in between.

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Thanks for sharing your 'inspiration' journey, Birds! So many comments rang a bell with me. It's exciting to learn that others have similar experiences!

Just quickly, since it's late:
-Loved the Bees story! Dixon as sleuth!  But why not? The inquisitive, deductive mind comes in both sexes and in all walks of life. Perhaps she can team up with Officer Mason, of "a particularly handsome woman" fame and one of Cat's enhanced characters. I enjoyed the bee theme and the final disclosure of it's deeper reference. 

-Research: since I don't have time to do much research, I cannot expound upon it as you have done, Birds. The only story for which I actually did research was MM&B: A Song and a Dream. I thoroughly enjoyed it, however. As you said, when researching, you often discover little nuggets of interest that can be incorporated into the story like when I learned of the statue of a woman in the harbor near Savannah Georgia. She gazes out to sea with one arm raised as if waving farewell to her lover, a sailor; and she continues to gaze and watch for his return. As I read it, her image jumped off the page and into my tale.

-Finally, in Herman Hesse's poem, I was shocked to see this:
Maybe death’s hour too will send us
out/ new-born toward undreamed-of
lands,
maybe/ life’s call to us will
never find an end…/ Courage, my
heart, take leave and fare thee well!


As my mother lay gasping her last breaths, the thought came to me that as we struggle to be born of our mother's wombs, being pushed and squeezed, possibly quite painfully, through a dark tunnel, to emerge into new life and a new world, we do likewise in our death passage, being pushed and squeezed through darkness until we emerge as pure spirit unencumbered by our frail shell, free, partakers of eternal life. 

Thanks for sharing, ladies!

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Thanks for those other translations Birds.

As my mother lay gasping her last breaths, the thought came to me that as we struggle to be born of our mother's wombs, being pushed and squeezed, possibly quite painfully, through a dark tunnel, to emerge into new life and a new world, we do likewise in our death passage, being pushed and squeezed through darkness until we emerge as pure spirit unencumbered by our frail shell, free, partakers of eternal life. 


What a beautiful described analogy Pat. I remember watching my own mother's last breaths as she was dying and I find the way you have described death extremely comforting.

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Thanks for sharing these very personal thoughts, Pat and Laura. 

When my grandma was in her late 70ies she had a phase when she wouldn't like to invest in the future, both literally and figuratively. She didn't buy any nice new clothes, and she was depressed because everyone around her seemed to be ill and dying... Fortunately, she soon overcame that phase and lived for another decade in reasonably good health.

Every so often I've seen elderly people, and especially when their health starts to fail, focus on what isn't possible for them anymore but ignore what would still there and within their reach, if only they kept an open mind... but many just see death and disintegration all around them, and not the new life and possibilities cropping up at the same time.

That's what I like about this poem; it reminds us that life's never over, not until the hour of our death--and even death may only be the passage to a different new life.

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You are so right Birds, even though I understand how elderly people feel that way. I'm glad that your grandma overcame it.

That's what I like about this poem; it reminds us that life's never over, not until the hour of our death--and even death may only be the passage to a different new life.


I love it. I think I prefer the first translation you posted best. So I have found the full version online and have printed off a copy to keep. 

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I haven't been terribly happy with either of the translations I found online, so I tried for my own version... don't know it it's any better, though:



STEPS | STAGES

Like flowers fade and youth yields to age,
each stage of life attains its prime,
wisdom does flourish, virtue has its time,
but cannot last forever.

Bravely and without regrets
each moment get prepared to part,
be heartened for another start,
submit to different new-formed ties.

A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us, and helping us to live.

With easy hearts we move through places,
clinging to none as to our own,
the world of spirit sets us free to roam,
it elevates us, step by step.

At home in some accustomed sphere
of life, we soon grow slack.
Just those prepared not to look back
can throw old habits off.

Death's hour too might send us forth
newborn to some undreamt-of lands.
Maybe life's call on us just never ends...
Courage my heart, take leave--be well!

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That's wonderful. Thanks Birds. 

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Glad you like it, Laura. Trying to translate a poem is always some kind of interpretation, after all...

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Glad you like it, Laura. Trying to translate a poem is always some kind of interpretation, after all...
And an excellent interpretation it was, Birds! I did a side by side reading of your version and the others and yours was very good!  Thank you!


I can't even begin to understand how difficult a task it is to re~translate a German poem's English version into a more understandable English version AND RHYMING THE ENDINGS of the 2nd and 3rd lines of eacg stanza to boot!! Amazing! 

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"As my mother lay gasping her last breaths, the thought came to me that as we struggle to be born of our mother's wombs, being pushed and squeezed, possibly quite painfully, through a dark tunnel, to emerge into new life and a new world, we do likewise in our death passage, being pushed and squeezed through darkness until we emerge as pure spirit unencumbered by our frail shell, free, partakers of eternal life."



What a beautiful described analogy Pat. I remember watching my own mother's last breaths as she was dying and I find the way you have described death extremely comforting.
I'm so glad, Laura!  I felt my eyes were opened during that time to what was really going on and my sadness was eclipsed by happiness for my mom!

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And an excellent interpretation it was, Birds!

Thanks, Pat. 

Hesse called 'Stufen' a philosophical poem, so I suppose its essence is more important than the outer form... That's why I thought, taking some liberties should be acceptable. 

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Research: since I don't have time to do much research, I cannot expound upon it as you have done, Birds.

Of course, none of us are historians, Pat... and what little time we have to spare we'd like to spend on writing rather than just looking up facts. And maybe it's just more important to do research with plot-driven writing, and if it's in your own nature to chafe a lot at inconsistencies.

After all, when writing character-centred it's essential to be able to empathise with the personalities of your characters rather than get their surroundings right to the last detail. Ultimately, people are people everywhere--and throughout the ages--so some stories are 'timeless'.

But there is a lot to be said in favour of research... It certainly helped us over at the N&S book club to understand some aspects and implications of the story so much better. Lois in particular turned out to be 'wizard-woman' when it came to finding facts about Victorian times. And we realised that the past is a very strange place in some respects. 

And with the times then having indeed been different from now--and some situations only working under the conditions of their 'proper' time--this discrepancy may just be what makes some stories worth the telling...

(On the other hand, historical accuracy--if taken very seriously--is a minefield, and may easily counteract an intended story. )

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The problems arising from fixing a story to a certain date...

I always wondered why writers are so reluctant to mention a specific date in their stories--now I know. It's the tendency to end up at the same time of year over and over again... end of September, in my case. 

In 'What If...' 26th September 1851 was the day Fred left by train for London from Outwood station, where he was seen by JT embracing Margaret, thus giving him--Thornton--quite the wrong ideas. It was also the day when Leonards took his fall which eventually got Margaret under suspicion in the eyes of the law (or in Inspector Mason's eyes, at least).

Now, that date (the 26th, though no month was given) was fixed in the series, so I couldn't do anything about it. I could have made it October, I suppose. But the Great Exhibition closed already on 11th October, which would have put events on rather a tight schedule. And August didn't work because the riot was in August--in the book, at least.

However, I'd given dates before in my stories...

There is 27th September 1852 in 'The Long Way Round', when Margaret writes a letter to her cousin, telling her that she 'happened upon' (I love this expression!) Mr Thornton some days previously during a train stop half way back to London. Well, people do put a date at the top of their letters, don't they... and as it originally was part of my first story, I felt free to choose any day I liked.

Finally, 29th September 1834 in 'Milton 1834'--a Monday (I checked!)... There had to have been a coroner's inquest after such a fateful incident, where a date would have been mentioned. Anyway, with that story I felt that events had to start out early in autumn, for what was to follow was meant to mirror the increasingly bleak time as the season progressed towards November. And being forced to make a new start in November is just about as bad as it can get...

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LOL! Yes, it certainly seems to be a lot easier if you can avoid dates.

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I saw this on the C19 Website and thought it might be of interest.

http://www.bl.uk/collection-items/north-and-south-first-instalment-in-household-words


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Thanks for that, Laura. Interesting to see how such a publication looked like at the time... Not that I've ever come across any contemporary literary magazines, for that matter. 

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I thought this bit was interesting as well. I know we know and have discussed before the problems EG had with the serial format but I didn't know that about Dickens blaming N&S for the drop in sales of Household Words.

Some writers, like Dickens, relished the challenge of writing for serialisation, introducing cliff-hangers to thrill their readers and maintain sales. Others, like Gaskell, found the serial form a constraint. She wanted to write 22 episodes of North and South rather than 20, and struggled to meet deadlines. Dickens, too, was dissatisfied with her work. Household Words saw a drop in sales in the autumn of 1854, which he blamed on Gaskell’s novel. Today, however, North and South is one of her most admired works.

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You will not know this, Birds, and, Laura, I don't know if you recall, but Cat was ALWAYS agonizing over dates, timelines and seasons of the year in her stories. Perhaps I heard this more in private conversations, but I remember chuckling, thinking, 'Do you honestly think readers will care or even notice if you're a few weeks or months off in chronology?'  But she was a perfectionist......and I'm not! 

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I didn't know that Pat, unless I forgot. I can understand it. I think I would be the same. Not sure if it is being a perfectionist or just a touch of OCD. LOL!

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Cat was ALWAYS agonizing over dates, timelines and seasons of the year in her stories.

Oh, was she, Pat? I can totally understand, as inconsistencies in my own stories tend to drive me nuts, too. I often notice such things in other people's stories as well--but in that case it doesn't bother me quite as much... otherwise I couldn't possibly read--and enjoy--the Outlander series. 

But I simply had to shake my head over those 3 dates I listed in my earlier post because IIRC they are the only precise dates I ever mentioned in my stories--and they ended up within 4 days of each other! 

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I often notice such things in other people's stories as well--but in that case it doesn't bother me quite as much... otherwise I couldn't possibly read--and enjoy--the Outlander series. 


It's not so much the dates but the other inconsistencies that drive me mad in those. LOL!

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It's not so much the dates but the other inconsistencies that drive me mad in those. LOL!

 As far as Outlander is concerned I was thinking more on terms of inconsistencies in general, too. 

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Birds mentioning Bill Bryson in another thread reminded me to say how much I enjoy reading his travel books. For me it started with Notes From A Small Island after watching a TV programme about it. For those who don't know, this book is about how after living in the Britain for 20 years, he was planning to return back to the USA and was taking one last trip around the island. At the same time he is recalling the things that happened when he first arrived. He loves Britain and it is amusing to see the peculiarities of this country and its inhabitants through his eyes. I find it a very funny and informative book. Interestingly after living back in the USA for some years he returned to England because he felt that this was his home now. He recently passed the British Citizen exam and now holds dual citizenship.

I have since read all his other travel books, another favourite being A Walk In The Woods which humorously describes his attempt to walk the Appalachian Trail with his friend "Stephen Katz". This is the one which has just been turned into a movie with Robert Redford and Nick Nolte.

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Thanks for the recommendations, Laura.

I only know the one book by Bill Bryson--At Home. But I very much like the way he writes in that one. Lots and lots of information, but an enjoyable read, nevertheless. And I like his humour.

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I only know the one book by Bill Bryson--At Home.


Yes, I remember you have mentioned it before. It is definitely one I intend to read eventually. 

His other travel books include

The Lost Continent: Travels in Small-Town America
Neither Here nor There: Travels in Europe
Notes from a Big Country (US)
Down Under (Australia)


There is a new one I haven't read yet which came out last month called The Road to Little Dribbling: More Notes From a Small Island.

He's also done some books on the English langage and a memoir of his childhood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Bryson

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It's a bit overwhelming to go back and re-read all the previous posts right now, so I'll just jump on in.

I haven't been able to do much reading lately, but one of the last books I read was "Lady Chatterly's Lover" by DH Lawrence. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, and I'll warn you there's quite intense langauge in it, but I enjoyed it. I listened to it as an audiobook, and I plan to go back and read it in print sometimes, as there are sections I want to read more closely and spend some time thinking about.

One of the quotes that really stuck with me was
"A woman has to live her life, or live to repent not having lived it."—D.H. Lawrence, "Lady Chatterley's Lover"

🎩What do you mean 'find yourself a man'? I've got Thornton, Darcy, Wentworth..

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I haven't been able to do much reading lately, but one of the last books I read was "Lady Chatterly's Lover" by DH Lawrence.


I've never read that one. I'm not a big DH Lawrence fan, although I did watch the 1993 series with Sean Bean. There was a new BBC production of the story this year staring Richard Madden, Holiday Grainger and James Norton. I didn't watch it but I believe it was much tamer version with none of the, as you say, 'intense language' or explicit love scenes or nudity.

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That's one of those books that get more talked about than actually read, isn't it?  But I've got it on my 'books to read' list for quite a while already, and it's good to know that you can recommend it, Ima. 

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I thought I would talk about books I liked to read as a child. A big favourite of mine was the ‘Little House’ book series. For those who haven't heard of them, they are a series of American children's novels written by Laura Ingalls Wilder based on her childhood in the northern Midwest during the 1870s and 1880s. They were also turned into a TV series called 'Little House on the Prairie' in the 1970's. I thought the books were much better though - less schmaltzy. I was thinking about these again lately because my sister saw a full set of the first 7 books (which chronicle her life up until her marriage) going cheap in a magazine and on impulse sent for them. They came yesterday and when I looked at them it really brought back some memories especially as, although the covers were different, all the illustrations inside where the same ones as those in the books I read as a child. I may just have to read them all again sometime. 


http://www.littlehousebooks.com/books/

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Funny that you should come up with this today, Laura.  Only yesterday I was talking to my cousin (who is much the same age as I am) on the phone, and we were discussing books we used to read as children. In our pre-teen age we both loved to read books by Enid Blyton, but while she preferred the St. Clare's series, I found those stories too 'girly' and rather read The Famous Five.

I've been thinking of suggesting another book as a good read, 'Spies' by Michael Frayn. It's not a children's book but a book about a boy living in a rural English region during WWII, telling about local events as seen from his perspective... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spies_%28novel%29

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In our pre-teen age we both loved to read books by Enid Blyton, but while she preferred the St. Clare's series, I found those stories too 'girly' and rather read The Famous Five.


I was never really into Enid Blyton, that was probably when I was reading the 'Little House' books, also the 'Anne of Green Gables' book series by Lucy Maud Montgomery. I loved my historical stories even as a child. But then on the other hand I was into sci-fi as well. I used to like reading the novels based on the original 'Doctor Who' TV series.

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In our pre-teen age we both loved to read books by Enid Blyton, but while she preferred the St. Clare's series, I found those stories too 'girly' and rather read The Famous Five.
I don't know if you know this Birds (but Laura does); I absolutely LOVED Enid Blyton as a child! I still remember my very first EB book: "The Children of Cherry Tree Farm". I read that one numerous times.  "The Famous Five" and "The Five Find-Outers" were a few of my favourites along with "The Malory Towers" series

I remember going to the British Council Library where I lived and searching through their EB collection only to find that they only had the St. Clare series.  It didn't interest me as much as Malory Towers did. I loved that Darrell Rivers, the main character from Malory Towers, was a tomboy and had a temper...I related .

But there was something magical about her adventure series, be it the Famous Five or the Five Find-Outers or The Secret Seven. My school library at the time had quite a collection so I almost managed to read them all but I don't recall the Adventurous Four series now.

Enid Blyton and then Nancy Drew...that was my childhood!
I'm hoping to re-read the books again when I pass it on to my children - if and when I have any! 

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Hi Lois - Wonderful, another Enid Blyton fan! 

The EB series tend to be titled vastly different in German, so I had to look them up... While many of them apparently got translated The Famous Five ('Fünf Freunde') and St. Clare's ('Hanni und Nanni') used to be the most popular here when I was a kid, and in the case of The Famous Five they still are... my younger son is reading them at present, in German of course.

According to his teacher my eldest son should give reading books in English a try now... but that's rather tricky, in fact. He doesn't quite have the vocabulary yet for the kind of books his age group's generally interested in (lets say, Harry Potter...), but he's outgrown books for younger children (of primary school age) by now, which would have been easier to read...

So, any suggestions would be welcome!

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.. my younger son is reading them at present, in German of course.
That's lovely Birds! 

According to his teacher my eldest son should give reading books in English a try now...

...

So, any suggestions would be welcome!


Hmm..well, I agree that you must try to get him to read in English.

I understand that he's outgrown the books for younger children but that's where I'd start. 

My brother hated reading as a child (still does!) so we would get him the LadyBird "Fairytales" series and "the Classics (Abridged)" series to improve his reading. I loved those books. 

"The Elves and the Shoemaker" was my favourite fairytale story. And the "Well-loved Classic" books were not tooo simple and not to complicated either.

Take a look here for an idea of some of the stories: https://www.librarything.com/series/Ladybird+Classics

(We still own some of those very same covers!)

On the back cover of those books, there would be other suggestions according to reading levels...we would try to go through the entire list for each level.

That's how I too, along with my brother had first read "A tale of Two Cities", "Black Beauty", "Around the World in Eighty days", "King Solomon's mines" (another fave), "Railway Children" etc.


Other suggestions (but this is more according to your son's age) would be "The Hardy Boys" mystery cases series; also I think I started reading "Sherlock Holmes" by 12 years of age.

"Emil and the detectives" (abridged and translated) was another story I loved ... perhaps something in that vein?



Ima reads a lot(!) and would be more knowledgeable on that account. She's also got a good understanding of Youth Fiction books. I'd ask her too.

And Thomas works in the library helping children read. She's be very helpful, I bet.


ETA: I've been thinking more on this since I typed the first post.

Another route, and you may not like this Birds, is ... Comic books!
They have few words but enough to get the meaning across and lots of pics ... so it an easier way to get them interested in reading English. The "Archie" comic books and the many subseries I would highy recommend because they are good fun and clean humour. I think everyone can relate to them...I certainly did! 

I LOVED "Tintin" as a child. Those stories were fantastic! I will still read them if I can get my hands on one. 

But for his age, why not also go for the more serious comic stories too? I'm partial to Batman, Superman etc. from the "DC comics" line because I prefer their storylines - Batman had to become an adult quite quickly when his parents were killed and Superman discovers he's an alien and struggles to find his identity...I think those stories are grrrreat for a teen! Even Spiderman (from the "Marvel Comics" line) is a great story.

And those stories have soooo many cartoon versions as well. So he can watch them in English. Plenty of movies too! Get him to watch it in English once his reading skills improves.

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Thank you for all the recommendations, Lois! 

The problem really boils down to matching up my son's (quite advanced) reading interests with his (still quite limited) English vocabulary--but comics might be a good way to go! I must check with our local library what they've got on offer... probably not a lot, but you never know. 

For that matter, we are planning to give him an ebook reader for his birthday (which is coming up early next year); this way it will be easier for him to look up the words he doesn't know yet--and not nearly as time-consuming as searching for them in a printed dictionary...

Btw, Terry Pratchett wrote a couple of books for younger readers... I thought I might introduce them in due time. "The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents" is one of my favourites--but then, I do have a peculiar taste in reading matters. 

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Sad to hear about the death of 'To Kill a Mockingbird' author Harper Lee. I don't know if others have read this one, but it is a real favourite of mine. There are a few books I keep and read over and over and this is one of them. I find it full of warmth and humour as well as addressing the serious issue of racial inequality in America's deep south in the 1930s. I love the film made in 1962, as well, with Gregory Peck's brilliant portrayal of Atticus Finch for which he won the Oscar for Best Actor.

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Another great writer passed away this weekend: Umberto Eco.

Of course, he's been best known for his first novel The Name of the Rose, but my favourite has always been Foucault's Pendulum. A book that proceeds logically (if convolutedly) from A to B to C etc., but when you arrive at Z you wonder every time how the heck could such an ordinary beginning have such a strange result. And as for trying to recapitulate... just. don't. try. I must have read it half a dozen times, at least. 

I actually saw him once. Eco was a guest at Glasgow University in 1990, and giving a lecture in the big auditorium. Unfortunately, it was on semiotics (they hadn't announced the topic in advance--but, of course, he was a professor of semiotics at the university of Bologna, besides being a novelist), and I didn't understand a word. Well, I wasn't the only one; my flat mate, a Scottish student of computer science, who had come with me, was equally mystified. We left early... 

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Of course, he's been best known for his first novel The Name of the Rose,


I've seen the film of 'The Name of the Rose' with Sean Connery.

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Since the past is terra incognita for most of us, here are links to the more general pages I found helpful for research (many of which were originally posted by Lois  over at the Book Club thread):

Script (novel/screenplay):
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4276/4276-h/4276-h.htm
http://northandsouth2004.com/north-and-south-screenplay/north-and-south-screenplay-by-sandy-welsh-ep1-of-4/

General history:
http://www.victorianweb.org/
http://www.historydoctor.net/Advanced%20Placement%20European%20History/life_in_emerging_urban_europe.htm
Bill Bryson: "At Home - A Short History of Private Life" (ISBN 978-0-552-77735-3)

Industrial society / English working class:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Condition_of_the_Working_Class_in_England
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17306/17306-h/17306-h.htm
http://www.historydoctor.net/Advanced%20Placement%20European%20History/Notes/industrial_revolution_%281%29.htm
http://richardjohnbr.blogspot.de/2008/07/working-classes-living-standards-1830.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/womens_work_01.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/shp/britishsociety/livingworkingconditionsrev1.shtml
http://www.educationengland.org.uk/history/chapter02.html

Marriage and women's rights:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/pptopic2.html
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~bp10/pvm/en3040/women.shtml
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Divorce_in_England_and_Wales

Victorian Christmas:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/victorianchristmas/history.shtml
http://www.victoriana.com/christmas/tree-99.htm

Income and expenditures in 1850:
http://www.victorianlondon.org/finance/money.htm
http://www.victorianweb.org/economics/wages2.html
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Coinage.jsp#costofliving

Suicides:
http://www.victorianweb.org/books/suicide/01.html

Mourning:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=1t-KfqurvfQC&pg=PA159&dq=mourning+colours+1851&source=bl&ots=KNtPQlGrmU&hl=en&sa=X#v=onepage&q=mourning%20colours%201851%20&f=false
http://www.katetattersall.com/mourning-dress-3/
http://www.angelpig.net/victorian/mourning.html (with many Australian references)
https://archive.org/stream/bazarbookofdecor00tomerich#page/270/mode/2up
http://www.victoriana.com/VictorianPeriod/mourning.htm
http://www.victoriana.com/death-in-the-victorian-era/

Royal Navy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_ranks,_rates,_and_uniforms_of_the_18th_and_19th_centuries


Other topics:

Phrases and proverbs:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/index.html

Poetry:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/

Punctuation, style, plot, etc.: EZN's Guide to Writing (Fan)fiction
https://eznguide.neocities.org/#Fanfiction

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Thanks for putting all those together on here Birds. 

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Hi heartfelt4-1. What a fantastic idea for a thread!

Hello everyone, I hope you're all well. I'll pull up a chair and order a pastry and a hot chocolate if I may.

I would like to discuss Daphne Du Maurier.

She is one of my favourite authors and I love how descriptive and vivid her novels are. I find her novels so descriptive and they grab me from the first page. Her characters come alive for me in a way that those creations of other authors just don't. My favourite Du Maurier novels are The Parasites, Rebecca, Jamaica Inn,Hungry Hill and Julius.

I think that some authors can use too much description in their writing but Daphne uses it quite differently. In someway she actually paints a picture in my head of the characters and their surroundings, this description for me anyway really brings her novels to life. She is an author that I will never lose my admiration for and if I could only keep a handful of books more than one would be hers.

What are your thoughts on Daphne and her novels?


Now I see fan fiction has been mentioned. I love it! I think it has become so popular because it allows fans of films, TV series and novels to create stories or scenes between characters that they wish had been included in the original material.

I love it because there are so many imaginative and well written stories and I think it's fantastic for aspiring writers to try out their writing styles. Yes there are some really bizarre fan stories out there but there are so many incredible stories too that are written in the style of the series, film or novel they are based on. They are wish fulfilment really, they allow us to invent moments between characters that we wish had happened and write a story involving them.

I'm going to read some more of the replies on this thread, I'll check in again later.

Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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Hi Maddy! Great that you could make it to our café. I'll join you for some hot beverage if I may. ☕ Autumn has started with a bang on the Continent as well... 🍃

I have only read Jamaica Inn and Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier. While the former didn't leave much of an impression (but then, my English might just have been too rudimentary at the time) I simply adore Rebecca. I love the gothic elements and the fact that it picks up themes from Jane Eyre, but gives the story a different twist. By turning the mystery romance into a crime story about half-way through... amongst other things.

And have you noticed, Maddy--but of course you have!--that we never learn the second Mrs de Winter's name throughout the novel?  I always find this rather sad...

EDIT: I just remembered that I replied to one of your posts on the JE06 board last month, and mentioned Rebecca then... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780362/board/thread/246768096?d=246954448#246954448

Now I see fan fiction has been mentioned. 
There actually is lots of fan fiction on this board... and Heartfelt is very prominent amongst the writers here. If you like to read N&S fan fiction (and/or to join in) there's a recently updated table of contents:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417349/board/thread/247445296

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Hi birds.

Sorry for the late reply. You are so right that there are similarities between Jane Eyre and Rebecca, the house and master with a secret and a young and decent woman who is the exact opposite of the masters former wife. Both DeWinter and Rochester want to escape their past with these two gentle and innocent(in the ways of the world) women.


And have you noticed, Maddy--but of course you have!--that we never learn the second Mrs de Winter's name throughout the novel? I always find this rather sad...

Yes that's strange isn't it? I always wondered if it's supposed to be because Rebecca is the one you are supposed to focus on. The former Mrs DeWinter's description and memory haunt the house, her husband and overwhelm the new Mrs DeWinter. It's almost like she could never compare to the beautiful dead wife. I always feel her name should be something like Margaret or Lily.

Yes I did see your reply on the Jane Eyre board and I finally got around to watching that series on YouTube. It was very well done but it wasn't my cup of tea I'm afraid. I was hoping for a proper acted out version of the story set today not a video diary.


Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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Hi Maddy--thanks for the reply! BTW, it wasn't me who suggested that Jane Eyre video blog... I watched the first few videos, and then I couldn't be bothered. Not my idea of a modern Jane, either.

I did point out, though, that Jane Eyre couldn't possibly be transferred into a modern setting without some major alterations because some very basic conditions of the novel don't apply anymore, ever since divorce laws in England have been changed. So, in order to adapt the story, one would have to make some drastic alterations in the characters' motivations--just like du Maurier did in Rebecca. Or maybe change the setting...

I am quite a scientific person (in my 'real' life I'm an engineer), and so I like to ponder such logical dilemmas; which is also one of the reasons why I like doing research, and do so a lot for my little stories... but, no doubt, this isn't everybody's cup of tea for starting a story. 



As for the name of the second Mrs de Winter; I always assumed that she might have a rather unusual, exotic name, and thus quite at odds with her mostly timid, unobstrusive nature. 

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Yes that's strange isn't it? I always wondered if it's supposed to be because Rebecca is the one you are supposed to focus on. The former Mrs DeWinter's description and memory haunt the house, her husband and overwhelm the new Mrs DeWinter. It's almost like she could never compare to the beautiful dead wife.


That was my thinking as well Maddy.

Birds said:

As for the name of the second Mrs de Winter; I always assumed that she might have a rather unusual, exotic name, and thus quite at odds with her mostly timid, unobstrusive nature. 


You could be right. I’m trying to remember now because I don’t have a copy of the book at the moment, but doesn’t Maxim say to her that she has a pretty and unusual name, or something like that.

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You could be right. I’m trying to remember now because I don’t have a copy of the book at the moment, but doesn’t Maxim say to her that she has a pretty and unusual name, or something like that.

 I must have remembered the same, then.

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Hi Maddy. Welcome to the café! 

She is one of my favourite authors and I love how descriptive and vivid her novels are. I find her novels so descriptive and they grab me from the first page. Her characters come alive for me in a way that those creations of other authors just don't. My favourite Du Maurier novels are The Parasites, Rebecca, Jamaica Inn,Hungry Hill and Julius.


I’ve read some Daphne De Maurier as well. My favourite is 'Rebecca'. But I also remember enjoying 'Jamaica Inn'. I read all her ‘Cornish’ novels years ago. It’s good when you find an author who can bring the characters alive for you isn’t it? I feel like that about Diana Gabaldon's 'Outlander' books at the moment. But back to Du Maurier, I remember being surprised to find out that she wrote 'The Birds', which I’ve also read. The film adaptation of that scared the hell out of me when I watched it as a child. 

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It’s good when you find an author who can bring the characters alive for you isn’t it?

 Oh absolutely Laura. I'd love to know the secret of those authors who really make you see their characters, who needs film? Another author with that gift is J.K Rowling. Her Harry Potter novels and Cormoran Strike novels are excellent and filled with fascinating characters who leap off the page at you.


I haven't read the Outlander books yet but I am enjoying the TV series very much. I'll have to check them out.




Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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I haven't read the Outlander books yet but I am enjoying the TV series very much. I'll have to check them out.


You must check them out Maddy. If you are enjoying the Series, I think you will love them. I have never enjoyed a book series so much. Diana Gabaldon is a very talented storyteller. She really pulls you in.

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Hi Maddy! So glad you dropped by! Though I can’t post as often as I’d like, I love the idea of discussions about writing and the stories we’ve read that pull us into the writer’s world.

When I began writing ff several years ago, I abstained from reading. I only had time for one or the other, so I chose writing during my limited spare time. This past winter I was unable write due to an ailing mother. I discovered the ‘Outlander’ series and was captivated by the world Diana Gabaldon created.

Now I read with divided attention: from the pov of reader and writer. This can be distracting, my brain thinking ‘oh, clever wording there’ when someone is about to die or be captured (!), but usually it doesn’t interfere with my enjoyment of the story. By reading the works of others, I’m seeking to learn how to be a better writer.

I must admit to not knowing about Daphne Du Maurier’s works, but from your wonderful account of how ‘descriptive and vivid her novels are’, I am intrigued. A question: must I read her books in order and if not, which one would you recommend to start? I agree with your statement that some writers use too much description. This topic interests me as a novice, how great writers communicate more by saying less. Daphne using description differently is very fascinating!

I’m glad that you’re not opposed to the idea of ff, as some are. For many, it is the commencement of - at minimum - a wonderful pastime or possibly a lifetime endeavor/career. Either way, it serves a valuable purpose to a beginner. Even great writers began with baby steps, I would think. There’s an expression, “Do not despise small beginnings” with which I concur wholeheartedly! Thanks, Maddy! Waiting to hear your recommendations!

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A question: must I read her books in order and if not, which one would you recommend to start?

No not at all because all of her novels are different stories. In addition to her novels she wrote a number of short stories too, including The Birds which the Alfred Hitchcock film is based on. Rebecca is probably the most recommended novel of Daphne's to begin with but I would recommend any of them.

If you do get to read any please let me know what you think of them and of her writing style. Happy reading!


I’m glad that you’re not opposed to the idea of ff, as some are

Personally I don't see why anyone would be opposed to it because it's such a great way of continuing characters stories. Like I said it's wish fulfilment really about things we wish characters had said or endured. There are some really good ones for TV series that seem like they're written by professional writers, they are that good. There are some really random ones out there but it's all good fun.

Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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Hi Maddy! I left off beginning Poldark to give 'Rebecca' a whirl.

I definitely agree with you that the writer has a wonderful gift of description! Beautiful natural imagery! And as a person who owns and landscape nursery garden center, I appreciate her knowledge of shrubbery, trees and perennials.

Since this is a writer's/reader's cafè, I'd like to do a little analysis as I go, if I may. Ironically, from a reader's pov, I found I became fatigued with the detailed descriptions after a while . I tried to analyze why and came to conclusion that I didn't know enough about the narrator at that point to care about her extensive observations (remember I had only read two or three chapters).

From a writer's pov, I've learned that detailed narration is fine; but to be most effective, I must engage the reader at a personal level before submerging them in detailed descriptions. By linking the narrator to other characters or to a scenario, the reader learns a little of who they are and at that point their observations become more valuable. My interest in the story increased greatly while observing the young woman's interactions with her benefactress and her new acquaintance, the stranger at the next table; and, I would wager, re-reading the long narration in the beginning chapters with this emerging character in mind will be much more satisfying.

Please don't take this as a negative comment , Maddy! I'm looking forward to reading this story BECAUSE of the skill level of the writer! She's amazing. I like to learn something from each reading experience that I can incorporate, hopefully, in my own writings. I will report back...

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I must read Rebecca again. I had a paper back copy but the text was so small I couldn’t read it comfortably even with my strongest reading glasses. I will have to get a copy on my Kindle. I do remember enjoying it very much. I thought the film adaptation was pretty faithful as well.

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I will have to get a copy [of Rebecca] on my Kindle. I do remember enjoying it very much. I thought the film adaptation was pretty faithful as well.


That's good to know, Laura. I didn't know there was a film adaptation. I love seeing a favorite book on film. Occasionally, I enjoy a not-so-favorite book on film, as in "Far From the Madding Crowd". I read a bit more of 'Rebecca' last night and enjoyed it...until I fell asleep. Not from boredom!! I was reading it on my android e-reader in bed...which can be dangerous when the reader slips from your grasp as you doze off and hits you in the face. 

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I didn't know there was a film adaptation.


It is quite an old one from 1940 with Laurence Olivier and Joan Fontaine. It was directed by Alfred Hitchcock. It is very good. Maybe you could watch it after you have read the book so you can compare. 

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Actually (and I know I'm being a bore with my Rebecca - Jane Eyre comparisons ) Joan Fontaine was Jane Eyre, too. In 1943, with Orson Welles (!) as Rochester. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036969/?ref_=nv_sr_5

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It is quite an old one from 1940 with Laurence Olivier and Joan Fontaine. It was directed by Alfred Hitchcock. It is very good. You should watch it after you have read the book so you can compare.

Brilliant film and I second the recommendation of it.There are also two superb miniseries of Rebecca one from 1979 starring Jeremy Brett and one from 1997 starring Charles Dance. Both are well worth watching.



Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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I was reading it on my android e-reader in bed...which can be dangerous when the reader slips from your grasp as you doze off and hits you in the face.


Yup, that's the way it ends up for me. Books hit you harder I discovered...

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Pat said:
I was reading it on my android e-reader in bed...which can be dangerous when the reader slips from your grasp as you doze off and hits you in the face. 



Thomas said:
"Yup, that's the way it ends up for me. Books hit you harder I discovered..."
I'm sure they do, Thomas! There's nothing like being clobbered by a great story! It leaves a deep impression. 


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Hi Maddy! I left off beginning Poldark to give 'Rebecca' a whirl.

I definitely agree with you that the writer has a wonderful gift of description! Beautiful natural imagery! And as a person who owns and landscape nursery garden center, I appreciate her knowledge of shrubbery, trees and perennials.

Since this is a writer's/reader's cafè, I'd like to do a little analysis as I go, if I may. Ironically, from a reader's pov, I found I became fatigued with the detailed descriptions after a while . I tried to analyze why and came to conclusion that I didn't know enough about the narrator at that point to care about her extensive observations (remember I had only read two or three chapters).


Hi heartfelt,


I'm so thrilled that you've decided to read it. I do hope you enjoy it and check out a few more of her books.

As for the description I can see your point about not knowing enough about the narrator, I can see how that might put some people off a character. I much prefer stories written in the third person. Personally speaking I love everything about this novel, I usually cannot stand stories written in the first person but this one just pulled me in from page one and I've loved it ever since I first read it.

I hope you'll check back in once you've finished reading and let us know what you think of the whole story.




Go to bed Frank or this is going to get ugly .

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Hi Maddy. 

I love the story of Rebecca, although it's been a while since I read the book.

The adaptations are great, although the 1940s' film changed the ending. I'm going to see a stage version in Brighton later on this month. Looking forward to it. The actor who plays Zacky Martin in the latest Poldark is Max.

I saw it once before on the stage with June Brown (Dot Cotton) as Mrs Danvers. She was brilliant!






If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

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Hi Supergran!

The adaptations are great, although the 1940s' film changed the ending.

I heard they did so because the American producers at the time had scruples of letting the main character get away with... well, murder.  But 'adaptations', plural? Are there others than the 1940ies one?

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Hi birds. 

You're right about the reasons behind the decision to change the film's ending.

The other adaptations were made for TV: 1979 and 1997.





If there aren't any skeletons in a man's closet, there's probably a Bertha in his attic.

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Hi Supergran! 

The other adaptations were made for TV: 1979 and 1997.


I've seen both of those. Although it's been a while - a long while since I saw the one with Jeremy Brett, so I can't remember a lot about that one. I loved the film though and thought it was very atmospheric. I've seen it quite a few times. I did wonder why they changed the ending. Thanks for explaining Birds. I still thought it was pretty faithful to the book overall.

ETA:
It's interesting that Joanna David played the second Mrs De Winter in the 1979 version and her daughter, Emilia Fox, played the same part in the 1997 one. 

I'm going to see a stage version in Brighton later on this month. Looking forward to it. The actor who plays Zacky Martin in the latest Poldark is Max.


What a coincidence. I hope you enjoy it. 

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I'd like to talk about another female author... Do any of you read Margaret Atwood, by chance?

IMHO she's one of the most versatile authors I've ever read--though for an author versatility is not always an asset, I suppose. Usually, if you like one book from a particular writer, there's a fair chance that you'll like them all. But not so with Atwood... she neither has a fixed genre nor an unvarying style. So, you might just love one of her books but be totally alienated by the next one.

'Oryx and Crake' - sci-fi, 'The Penelopiad' - Greek mythology (retold), 'Lady Oracle' - satire, 'Alias Grace' - historical novel (which is probably my least favourite), 'The Handmaid's Tale' - fantasy (set in a totalitarian society), 'The Robber Bride' - contemporary novel (featuring a sociopath)...

...and then there is my all-time favourite 'The Blind Assassin'. It's a family saga, told in four parallel storylines. An elderly lady, formerly of the local society, but now in slightly reduced circumstances; the family history of herself and her sister; said sister's posthumously published book, a love story; and a fantasy tale--and all this goes together incredibly well in an amazing and heartbreaking story.

But moreover, Atwood's also a clever writer, with good timing and great plots... Her books are a challenge to read at times, especially since they often drop you in at the deep end--which is not everybody's cup of tea. They're not escape books, but a good read nonetheless.

Any more fans of hers about?--Especially amongst her fellow Canadians from the Ontario region?

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I remember you mentioning her before Birds. No, I haven't heard read any of her books.

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Yes. "The Blind Assassin" is definitely one of the books on my '5 books to take with you on a lonely island' list, along with...

- Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum" (in German)
- Terry Pratchett's "Men at Arms" 
- The Bible (though I'm more of a 'lukewarm' Christian)

... and as for number five? I'd be spoilt for choice--rather too many contenders!

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I think The Bible is a good choice to take to a lonely island. I would take it too.

This is a good theme so I will pick four more.

'North And South' has replaced 'Jane Eyre' in recent years as my favourite classic book, so I would definitely take that one. 

Then there is 'Outlander', which has quickly become my favourite book series. If can only take one, it would have to be the first one 'Cross Stitch'.

As for the final two choices, it's difficult because I have lots of other favourites, but two that I have read over and over and would definitely want to take are:

'The Daughter of Time' by Josephine Tey, and

'Mist Over Pendle' by Robert Neill

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Grammar!!!! *yikes*

Now, this is probably a problem only someone who approaches English as a foreign language can come up with . I mentioned sometimes before that I don't often read narration because I tend to get lost inside its more complex sentence structures and vocabulary, so I don't know how it is done 'properly', but then I encountered this problem in my last short story:

Narration is traditionally written in the simple past form. So, if within that form a memory is narrated, this is generally done by using past perfect. However, past perfect is incredibly bulky to handle for any length of time and, if you want to refer to a memory within a memory, you're stuck... That's why I decided to use italics for the flashback part, and to keep writing it in simple past. 

But how do native speakers deal with flashbacks in narration?--Sneak back to simple past after having made a start in past perfect?

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I for one do not actively think about the grammar in my writing Birds;  - which is why I've forgotten all the rules and such with regards to it. I don't think I've had to be specially aware of it in all these years since leaving school and since I've hardly done any writing since then, I don't think about it as a result.

I don't know the rules for writing and those for the narration aspects of the story in particular. I just write the way I know how to write.

I don't have the extra pressure I suppose (or even put that extra pressure on myself even if I should be doing so) of being grammatically correct. I can usually tell when the tense is wrong and do correct it when I can in my stories - as you've seen me do. Other than that...

I too had trouble with my last piece of writing seeing as how it dealt with a bit of flashback memory and given that I was narrating in the character's mindset anyway I therefore had to be extra conscious about the grammar in my sentences right then. That's why I wasn't satisfied with the story when I first posted - it was a bit "off", grammatically.

So far, I usually tend to use italics for " internal thoughts" a character in the story is thinking about.

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Thanks for your reply, Lois.  But I guess you're right; I wouldn't have given the whole matter (how exactly to use different tenses) much thought either, if I did my stories in German, and if my kids didn't happen to be at that age when grammar both in German and in the foreign languages plays an important part at school.

Anyway, I had a look at the beginning of Pat's HB story in the meantime, and it seems that she does indeed switch back from past perfect to simple past in her flashbacks after a bit--but she does it so fluently that I really had to look for it specially in order to notice it...

So far, I usually tend to use italics for "internal thoughts" a character in the story is thinking about.
I did that as well, in other stories, though, not in the last one. Italics really are quite a useful tool. 

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I wouldn't have given the whole matter (how exactly to use different tenses) much thought either, if I did my stories in German, and if my kids didn't happen to be at that age when grammar both in German and in the foreign languages plays an important part at school.
Yes; I definitely feel the need to brush up on my grammar if I chose to write again. I must admit, that writing is a lot harder, even more than I thought it would be.

Honestly Birds, I normally don't give grammar much thought at all when writing. And neither do I actively read a story and pay special attention to the tenses in particular. I suppose it happens, but it is all subconsciously done. In fact, I then don't even edit my own stories by breaking down every line to see if it is grammatically correct. Maybe I should...LOL. I just go on instinct; if it doesn't sound and feel right, I try and edit it.

Italics really are quite a useful tool. 
They are! I love using italics for emphasis more than bold but being online you sometimes do need the bold button to convey how strong you feel about something.

I wouldn't mind using a different font for a flashback but since we don't have that luxury on here (this platform in particular), maybe a different font colour could also serve the same purpose.

You've got me wondering about grammar and formatting in general Birds and so I spent some time looking up some of these things. I found this site and I think it's a good one. If you haven't come across it yet, take a look here: https://eznguide.neocities.org/

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You've got me wondering about grammar and formatting in general Birds and so I spent some time looking up some of these things. I found this site and I think it's a good one. If you haven't come across it yet, take a look here: https://eznguide.neocities.org/

I had a look at this last night, and it is a good one. Thank you for the link, Lois. 

The advice on grammar and formatting is good to bear in mind--for editing, and with practice much of it may come automatically during writing, I hope.

But for the actual initial stage of writing there really is just the one thing to do IMO, and which worked for me every time: Always follow your gut feeling--don't write for an audience, write for yourself; whatever you would like to read.

I believe that our general preferences as a reader really are a good guideline. All of Ezn's expert tricks on plots and style may feel a bit too inhibiting when you're only just getting started with writing fan fiction... I'd say, you'll gain confidence in your style and your abilities the more you actually write, and then you'll be ready to pick up the tricks and experiment with new ideas. 

I must admit, that writing is a lot harder, even more than I thought it would be.

Don't be too hard on yourself, Lois.  You're doing just fine! Try to relax and enjoy your creativity in writing.

Thing is, in one respect not writing in your first language really is an asset: I'm less self-conscious about writing in English than I would ever be about writing in German, maybe because I don't expect that I could possibly be perfect in a foreign language--so the stakes, and the pressure, are much lower for me. This more than makes up for the four translation and dictionary tools (in addition to the thesaurus) I have in constant use during writing. 

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They are! I love using italics for emphasis more than bold but being online you sometimes do need the bold button to convey how strong you feel about something.


As a reader I like italics used for emphasis and for internal thoughts.

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Yesterday there was an interesting article in our newspaper about self-publishing... Here's an abstract of the facts they'd given:

In our country alone 80,000 book titles (by 75,000 different authors) get self-published each year--largely thanks to Amazon's Kindle Direct Publishing--which is more than the output of all the 'traditional' publishers in Germany put together.

Readers these days expect the same quality in terms of editing and cover design (and typesetting) as they do with books issued by established publishers, which means a self-publisher is well advised to get professional help. Going rates for professional editing here are €4 to €7 per standard page (1,500 characters, which roughly approximate 250 words in English). Cover designs come at approx. €300.

The author gets an average €1.50 for each copy sold.



Enter the accountant in me... 

A piece of writing is considered a novel at 50,000+ words. (Mind you, this would be a very short novel, Gaskell's 'North & South' has about 180,000 words!)

50,000 words roughly equal 300,000 characters, which in turn equal 200 standard pages.

At an average rate of €5.50 per page editing would come up to about €1,100, plus cover layout costs of €300.

... so, we're talking about €1,400 production costs for a very short novel!

In consequence, a self-publishing author would have to sell about 1,000 copies  just to break even, and probably quite a few copies more because there wouldn't be as much profit by a slim volume as by a standard novel, I expect.

And as for advertising--The article mentioned that a good social media presence would be the most efficient thing to do these days, on Twitter and Facebook, and maybe writing a blog...



I was actually rather surprised that it is so expensive... Is this the same in your countries?

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And as for advertising--The article mentioned that a good social media presence would be the most efficient thing to do these days, on Twitter and Facebook, and maybe writing a blog...


Being members of sites such as C19 might help as well. I know some of the fanfic writers on there have self-published. I have actually bought some because I read them first on there.

I was actually rather surprised that it is so expensive... Is this the same in your countries?


I'm really not sure. I googled and I found a site that said it charged £185 base fee, then £4 per thousand words with discounts available for longer work. Of course this is just a site I found on the net. I'm not sure how professional they are.

Didn't Pat say she was thinking of self-publishing her story 'Homeward Bound?'

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I googled and I found a site that said it charged £185 base fee, then £4 per thousand words with discounts available for longer work. Of course this is just a site I found on the net. I'm not sure how professional they are.
The newspaper article I mentioned was based on an interview with a guy who is head of a German self-publishing writers' association--so I guess he would have a good idea of the going rates over here. But then, fees might vary considerably from one country to the next. It also mentioned a woman who's self-publishing crime stories, and who's quite a success story herself. She's published 14 books so far and sold 650,000 copies. So, she can live off writing very comfortably these days. But they didn't omit to mention that she's very much the exception.

I found all this interesting because I naively thought that there wasn't much to self-publishing, but it appears that if you wish to do it professionally you might have to face quite some costs...

Being members of sites such as C19 might help as well. I know some of the fanfic writers on there have self-published. I have actually bought some because I read them first on there.
The article didn't explicitly mention fan fiction, but probably there are sites and online discussion groups for all kinds of genres of writing and, yes, that would be a good place to start.

Didn't Pat say she was thinking of self-publishing her story 'Homeward Bound?'
Yes. I had a conversation with Pat in context with her MM&B part 1 story last year, and she mentioned at one point that she was planning to have MM&B parts 1 and 2 professionally edited, in order to self-publish them as one volume. But she also mentioned that before she could do so she would have to finish Homeward Bound first (as prequel to MM&B), and send it off.

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I found all this interesting because I naively thought that there wasn't much to self-publishing, but it appears that if you wish to do it professionally you might have to face quite some costs...


I suppose it is still an avenue for those who are finding it difficult to find a publisher.

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I suppose it is still an avenue for those who are finding it difficult to find a publisher.
Don't get me wrong, Laura. I think so, too.  Those self-publishing platforms are a great opportunity for all writers who wish to publish their works--and it has become a lot easier these days, ever since eBooks made it unnecessary to publish an actual printed book (unless you really want a hard copy).

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Don't get me wrong, Laura. I think so, too. 


Would you ever consider it yourself Birds?

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Would you ever consider it yourself Birds?
Goodness no, Laura!--I write because I love doing just this: writing. I love the process, the experience of how a story comes about on 'paper'--and all in a language not even my own. And while I love reading your comments here on this board, getting wider recognition for my stories is not important to me. I'm just as happy with two (or five...) readers as I would be with 200.

(EDIT: ...or maybe happier, on second thoughts, because I can discuss with you at leisure... and we've come to know each other quite well over the years, so it's something entirely different with you than it would be with anonymous readers. )

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And I love reading your stories Birds. 

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One of my all-time favourite writers is the late American/fantasy/sci-fi/horror writer Ray Bradbury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury

As you can see as well as his novels he wrote a lot of short stories and one of the ones mentioned in that link 'A Sound of Thunder' is a favourite of mine. The plot summary is in this link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder

I was thinking about this one recently because I can't help thinking that if Donald Trump is elected somebody must have travelled back in time and stood on a butterfly.

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Thanks for that, Laura. I'm always happy for new recommendations... must check this out later. 

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