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Tales of Symphonia: Knights of Ratatosk for USA.


It's happened ladies and gents, Tales of Symphonia: Knights of Ratatosk (otherwise known as Tales of Symphonia 2) the sequal/spin off to Tales of Symphonia has been officially announced for NTSC U/C (USA) release.
The game ha sbeen renamed to Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World for USA, Knights of Ratatosk stays for Japan.
This is particulary good news, it looks like we will get to see this game in english afterall.
Huzaaaah!!

So discuss people :)

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that's great.

So it will come the UK as well. I don't see any reason why not. Since TOS is such a big sucess here, I think.

Has anyone heard any news about Tales of Vespria coming to the USA/UK?

Dean: How could it get any worse, some alien made you B itch

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[deleted]

Where did you learn that Lloyd is villain?

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Neon Genesis Evangelion is the worst anime series ever created.

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From Wikipedia:
One day, the Church of Martel went to war with the vanguard, and Sylvarant's city of Palmacosta was caught in the crossfire. Countless innocent people died and Palmacosta was consumed in a terrible fire. This event came to be known as the "Purge of Blood", a massacre allegedly led by Lloyd Irving of the Church of Martel.

Setting

Dawn of the New World takes place two years after the events of Tales of Symphonia. The protagonist is named Emil, and characters from the original Symphonia will return: certain screenshots have revealed that Colette, Raine, and Genis will return as playable characters, therefore making it likely that the other Tales of Symphonia characters may as well. The newest trailer has shown that most of the party members will return, though Kratos will not, instead acting as the narrator for the story. However, this same trailer depicts Lloyd in an antagonistic light: he fights Emil and Marta. Whether this means Lloyd is an antagonist, or a temporary enemy, like Kratos was, is uncertain. It is still unknown which choice will be taken as canon in Dawn of the New World. In addition, screenshots depicting Zelos have been released, implying that the canonical ending of Tales of Symphonia had Zelos live, rather than die. The same seiyūs in the Japanese version will return for the game.


Unrelated:
Lloyd Irving is also in Soul Calibur: Legends. I might buy the game just for this reason.

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Eh, doesn't really say much about him being a villain.

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Neon Genesis Evangelion is the worst anime series ever created.

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[deleted]

Here are magazine scans prooving it.
Yes LLOYD IS A VILLAIN.
Accept it guys.

Nintendo Power 10-page Article scans

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/lllllllllllllll-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0002-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/YaminoKaitou/scan0010.jpg

Feel free to disperse these freely. ^_^


Now, As you can see, the game is very much being brought to the USA(if it doesn't come to Europe by a strange reason then you can rely on the soon to be freeloader which is in progress)
As you can see from the scans, translation has already begun progress as there is a picture of Colette performing "Grand Cross" and Genis using "Abosulute" and one of Photon, they are all written at the top of the screen in the attack eprformance bar.
The affection system will be once again but slightly different.
Techs are now called Artes, like Tales of the Abyss (because it is more Abyss than the original Symphonia)
Marta (female lead) can cast spells as well as frontal attacks (this was done so because when you only have Marta and Emil in your party, aswell as your caught and raised monsters, You need a spellcaster for attacks, but when y ou get say.. Genis and Raine back in your party, you can have a second Melee fighter aswell as Emil and two Spellcasters.
there are hints that this game will gain the what the Japanese exclusive PS2 version had, (Hi Ougi's!!!!)
The original cast don't stay with your permanently, they join you and leave you from time to time, sucks for some but obviously the game wants you to get used to new characters and not single them out because you got the originals, I think Lloyd will be playable at some point, as it said ALL of the original cast are, this opens questiosn about why he is a villain.
There are large rumours that Yuan is going to be a playable character.

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[deleted]

You obviously have not done any research towards this game at all.
If you've not noticed things have changed since Symphonia, like 3 years, anything could have happened
Lloyd is, and has been confirmed that he is a villain, he lead the "Bloody Purge of flame" of Palmacosta, what ever his reasons, no-one knows because that will be IN THE PLOT OF THE GAME. Lloyd is conisdered a hero to some and a villain to others, that is the games words.
Lloyd, for now, is considered a villain, He has changed, we don't know why yet but he has.
Accept it guys, your shining beacon of hope, Lloyd Irving, is currently a villain!
Accept it, there is too much proof.

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So for some he's a villain, for other's he's a hero. But you're saying he's a villain right now and we have to accept it? That makes no sense...

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Neon Genesis Evangelion is the worst anime series ever created.

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[deleted]

I don't know that Emil is doing the right thing, did I even say that? No.

Lloyds group were NOT doing the wrong thing at the beginning of the game because they were attempting to save many lives, they had no idea of the paralell world that lay opposoite to them, and as soon as they did find out they constantly looked for a way to save everyone.

And to the Abyss reference; We know Luke did wrong in early Abyss but if you look at Luke then Lloyd and co., there is a large personality clash. Luke was selfish and wanted to be a hero, Lloyd and co. (minus Kratos) thought they were reviving the world. They wern't actually reviving it, but the principle is that they were trying to do only good things.

You think Emil is a bastard? Well that's just your opinion, tbh, You've only seen him in a trailer, and we all know that character bio's don't give even half of the true nature of them away. He's made out to be moody and quite closed up at first but he does not have a family, which makes a pretty poor background.

I can't acutally comment on what Emil and Marta are doing to the tree spirit, and neither can you, because that's part of the game that ha dnot even been released. As you know, the blurb written on the back of Tales of Symphonia is alot different that what actualyl goes on in the game itself. Hello Plot twist.

For all we know, Lloyd could be the same as he has always been, but for now, not just by me, but by the game itself, he is considered a villain. What ever his motive was for destroying palmacosta, he still did it. Just like Anise from Tales of the Abyss, what ever motive she had for causing Ion's death, she still did it regardless.

I am certainly not biased against him. I have no idea whether he is truly a villain, I am merely stating fact that for now, the game itself has confirmed him as a villain. It's you who has the problem, un willing to accept that Lloyd is not the same as he is.
I do so have proof.
Why do you think the original Symphonia cast join the party of Emil at many times? Because they are searching for Lloyd to question him about why he is doing such bad things. Genis and Raine have split up to look for him, and it even states in a paragraph about Genis that Genis is finding it hard to except the fact that his best friend, Lloyd, is now a villain. That is the games words, not mine. And like I said above, Lloyd has, undoubtedly, caused a purpose destruction of an entire city, as I pointed out, what ever his motive, he has done it, which still put's him in a villain category, Like I said about Anise, she caused hundreds of deaths, just like Luke, but Anise was immediatley accepted as a non-villain because she literally had no choice as to what she was doing, As for Lloyd, we don't know if he does not have a choice, but the fact is, he is doing only bad for now.

And It actually makes a pretty good story if he is a villain to some, people are already excited about the game just so they can find out what the hell is going through Lloyds head, they want to know why Lloyd has become suddenly bad over a 3 year period.

Lloyds character, well he was tested through strength, as battles proove, he had to be test by Origin to see if he had the soul, the heart and the strength to wield the Eternal Sword, so your right there, but it's been 3 years, many things could have happened. There are reasons for Lloyd to be as he is now, for one thing, He has become hated by many, people believe he is some sort of devil that has merged two worlds that don't want to be merged together, yet some think he is a hero for making piece, that could put much stress on the boy. He is not like Mithos, your right, but don't forget, ultimatley, Mithos wasn't bad.He was doing foolish things, that caused pain and suffering to everyone, so you could sya he is a villain for that but actually, what he was doing is out of love, he was doing bad things for a good cause. that doesn't make him bad, that just makes him a troubled soul.

Lloyd doesn't have his friends side by side at him for the moment, as they are all looking for him. Wanting to know why he is doing what he is doing.

And so what you have a scan of Lloyd fighting by Emil? You've just said Emil was a bastard and mad ehim out to look bad, now your saying Lloyd must be oh so great of a hero because he's fighting with Emil? Make your mind up, nothing your saying has any argument beside it, your just saying things that you want to believe. So what he's fighting along side Emil, it's not permanent, and it's not like you've never had a bad guy fight with you before? Kratos turned out to be a traitor, same with Zelos, yet you fought along side them for ages, both of them lied to you. You fought Regal when you first met him, yet he joined you, there are many possibilitys, so don't just thing that just because Lloyd is fighting alognside Emil it makes him good.
Btw, where is this scan?

Overall, I am not saying Lloyd is a villain, I am saying what the game has said. I don't know if Lloyd is a villain or a hero, The game isn't even out so anything could happen.
I am just saying, Lloyd IS FOR NOW CONSIDERED A VILLAIN, SO UNTIL YOU KNOW WHY, OR EVEN IF IT'S 100 % TRUE. GEEEEEEEETTTTTT OVERRRRRRRRRRRR ITTTTTTT!!!!

As you put, "So there!!!"

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[deleted]

I actually am starting to find you amazingly retarded.
I can't help but laugh at what ever you type.
You've pretty much back tracked on what you said before, now your the one saying that you don't know Lloyd is a villain? Just no.. Don't copy me.
Honestly, It's like your a completely different person who just wrote that.
You are trying to "Imply" that I want him to be a villain, I don't want him to be a villain, I never said I did, I merely said that the game is stating that so far.

I'm not discounting the fact that Lloyd is a villain, but he probably does have a decent reason behind what he's doing. After all, literally all Tales villains have a legitimate reason behind the atrocities they commit. Whether the gamer thinks it's logical or not is up to them, but when you look at things from the villain's side, what they're doing often makes sense.

I am done arguing with you, because It seems to me that your failing to accept the fact that Lloyd COULD, YES COULD, NOT WILL, Be a villain.
I mean, please, get over all this "peace and love *beep* Lloyd is a heroin! He has lots of friends everyone loves him, blah *beep* blah"

PS. You need reading lessons, You pretty much read every single point I made wrong.
Now I'm not going to reply to your nonsense again.
I did not say Lloyd is a villain, I did not say he is good, I am stating what the "could be" is. Now until you play the game, and find out Lloyd is 100 % the same as he was In symphonia then I shall apologise, and mean it.
But until then; stop defending on what you have no knowledge on.

Reply and argument if you wish, but I ain't gonna reply so you'll be wasting your time.

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[deleted]

I disagree about Mithos being a coward, he tried to do the same thing as Lloyd in a completely different manner. Where Lloyd accepted differences in people and elves, Mithos tried to eliminate them for the same reason: "A world without discrimination." This is the reason no one here is convinced Lloyd is a villain *slams mug of coffee on table (play Phoenix Wright 3 for the reference)* because he accepted differences in people. A blood purging? he's a suspect, but his nature has always been to accept those around him.

In the beginning of the game, Emil is bullied by guys for not worshipping Lloyd. Lloyd has never been influenced by flattery of others. He has always followed his belief that he has to carry the burdens of those who suffered under the regime of Mithos. All those who suffered because of his mistakes. his belief was to avoid suffering and the game itself gives him the title of Idealist, "The ideals he holds may be unrealistic, but many are moved by his heart."

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[deleted]

I don't know how you can call me a coward for saying I won't respond then say You don't want to listen to my reasons.
Once again you are failing to understand what I'm saying.
Did I say I wanted Lloyd to be a villain? NO.
You are just making assumptions.
Yes Lloyd's character was tested but you are completely discounting the fact that people can change, Lloyd could have changed. COULD HAVE, ONCE AGAIN, PAY ATTENTION TO THIS SENTENCE, HE COULD HAVE CHANGED, I'M NOT SAYING HE HAS FOR DEFINATE.
And seriously; If you believe that villains have no logical reason behind what they do then you must have a small attention spam.
Mithos' plan made sense, it was just heartless in many ways, he was trying to save the world his way.
Van's plan made a hell of alot of sense, hell even some people agree with it over Luke's plan. The point in that is that it's most likely even though Van was defeated, people will still want to know the score.

It doesn't matter how old Mithos was, He was still actually a hero. Age has nothing to do with it, it's what a person does that makes them what they are, not their age.

Your on about Lloyd and all his stress and how much he has been tested as if he is your boyfriend or something. He's not the only stressed out character..
There isn't just Lloyd who has had stress, your just making out that Lloyd is oh-so-amazing and deserves the most sympathy when clearly he isn't the only one with problems. So obviously, any other character can handle it aswell as he can.
And what if all this stress suddenly made him crack? Turn into a...
oh..
oh..
you'll hate me now..
A VILLAIN.

That could also happen.
Now pleassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssseeeeeee.
Stop having some kind of retarded go at me, I didn't say I wanted Lloyd to be a villain, I didn;t say he was, The game IS IMPLYING IT. If you can't see that it's implied then you need to focus.

BTW, Once again, Not saying he is a villain but, If he was exactly the same as before, all friendship and love and all that, then he would be the main character of this game. There is obviously something different about it.
Now stop being so stubborn and accept the could be's.
I am accepting he could still be good, I am accepting he could be bad, I don't know for sure yet but you do what I'm doing and just look at the what if's.

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[deleted]

I'm not backing out easily. If I was, I wouldn't be here. And Just because I don't reply in the first 5 seconds doesn't mean I'm backing out; It means I have a life.

What you think just because you've played every Tales Game it makes you some RPG maniac. I bet you havn't even played every Tales game. Just because you don't agree with my point it doesn't make me wrong. I'm not disagreeing with you here, Lloyd could be as nice and dandy as he always has but I'm just looking at things from a different angle. By the way, If you had as much knowledge as you think you do with RPG's, particulary the Tales series, You should know it's full of twists and turns. Lloyd going bad could be one of them.

I don't have my heart set on old Lloyd being a villain, infact I don't like the idea of it. It's not me who won't ease off my stance, it's you who won't ease of yours. I'm looking at the possibility of Lloyd being bad or good, Your just claiming that he must be good. It's good that you have a strong belief, yes, But don't get so hypocritical.

Yes. yes, yes So you've said, Lloyd can't be bad, he has too many friends, he has been on a world wide journey to stop all evil, so he must be the most heroic hero a Tales series has ever seen, but still, 3 years; anything could happen. Things could change him, You simply do not know, and neither do I.

You say Mithos' plan made no sense, what I find odd is you seem to proove his plan made no sense by saying how mean he is. He was ruthless, killing everyone like that, but it made sense. No one deserved to have his version inflicted on them, that's why Lloyd and co. went after him, but still; He wanted his sister back; who was taken from him by the people he despised most and wanted to create a world were people could be accepted. It was quite a mean, selfish, twisted plan. But it did make sense. You said you knew all about RPG's, if that's so, then you should really, by now, look at things from the villains point of you. Mithos is neither right or wrong, his plan was right, but the reasons were wrong. IMO, Mithos actually shows some maturity before he dies, He allowed Lloyd to destroy him, He said he was tired of playing the game of good and evil, Most Villains are normally like.. "NOO I LOST! HOW COULD I LOOSE!?"

Actually, Van's plan would accomplish a hole new world, it just came at to high a price. Luke and co. felt they could choose the future, Van felt that the only way was to go to the extreme; re-write the world.
It is actually marked by Jade, and other characters you travel with that Van's plan actually makes sense, it's just too heartless. I'm pretty sure I just took the meaning of that sentence from what Guy said.

You just think Mithos is evil, just like you think Lloyd is good. I'm not even going to go into detail about this part, It seems to me that your only looking at things you actually want to be true; I on the other hand, are looking at things from both sides. I agree with you that Mithos is ruthless, but I disagree with the fact that you say his plan has no sense to it.

Yes, you right, Lloyd did have to pull his friends from their problems while dealing with his own, that does make a true hero, but as I've said, 3 years; Is a pretty long time, alot could happen. Also, it's marked that in this new world some people love Lloyd for what he's done, Others hate him, He's only ever really been truly hated by Mithos in this game; Whereas now, more than half the worlds population could be hassling him; throwing threats at him, trying to get him killed. Lloyd thought he was doing the right thing, so the possibilty stands that he was prepared to be hated after he thought what he did in the end of Symphonia was 100 % right (merging the worlds that is)

Once again, you can't tell me to ease off my stance when you won't get off your high horse. As I said; I am looking at both sides, you are clinging to the hope of one. I don't want Lloyd to be a villain, you are telling me I want him to, I am telling you to look at both sides. I don't like the look of Emil personally, He does sound moody as you said, arrogant and what not, so I'd much prefer Lloyd to be fighting on the hero side; And it may be like that, point is, it may not.

I am sorry that you won't accept anything other than what you desire, but honestly, if you say you know so much about RPG's then you will know the true meaning of character development.

When this game comes out, if Lloyd is a hero and fights along side you as normal, then I will offer my most deepest apologies, but if he has gone the othre way, then I can't help but think you will either make an excuse for him or not post here.

Now please don't take this like an argument, because I'm not.

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[deleted]

I am actually growing tired of this argument, okay.
I am not going to reply to everything you wrote there, because you only turn it round and throw comebacks. This argument is never ending, we are not going to agree.
What I will say though is that you are failing to see what I am saying, I am not buying what is being fed to me, you just think that, I do not want Lloyd to be a villain, just like you don't, I am just merely looking at both sides.
Everyone loves a good plot twist, and yes Tales RPG's are full of plot twists, How can you say they are not?
This Lloyd thing could be a plot twist, then again, it could not.
You are syaing that your not chatting about what you want, rather what you believe, but from the way you keep refusing to accept another possibility of Lloyds character being altered makes it sound more like you want him to be good.
Once again, I want him to be good aswell, so stop making out that i want him to be bad.
I'm not even going into Mithos again because you just end up backfiring it all.
It seems to me that you are just reading the parts where I argue with you; forgetting I am actually agreeing with you in some parts.
I told you I wasn't trying to argue with you, but your just being completely arrogant about this hole thing. And, tbh, I cbbbbbaaaa dealing with you.
If your going to get all moody then I won't try to make this peaceful much longer.
I feel I should tell you, if you ever joined the official Tales forum, you would realise how wrong you are about most things. Also; as of now, you officially remind me of one of those Symphonia Newbies that cling to the fact that Lloyd is some kind of idol, and tha tafter you play the game you start chatting on about peace and love, making the world so happy.
If you were a true tales RPG player, you would be looking at everything from all different angles.
Btw, please stop putting words in my mouth, throughout this hole debate you are telling me what I am basically thinking, Your making it clear what your thinking but your not listening to me, so you don't actually have the right to listen to anymore of my points, as to you, they mean jack *beep*

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Hey, do you happen to be Judgey...? :D It's PG (phantasiagirl). Haiz.

But I'd just let it go...I don't think anyone could change their mind. There's such a thing as being open-minded and they certainly aren't it. I mean, you brought up the good point about Mithos, but what about Sheena? She was originally an enemy of the group, fought the party...two times IIRC, and was AGAINST WHAT THE MAIN PARTY WAS TRYING TO DO until they realized it was somewhat of a misunderstanding, especially after the Tower of Salvation.

It's pointless to agrue with these types of people, they just won't listen. The point of a sequel is to CONTINUE ON with what happened in the first one. People change, ideals change, and misunderstandings happen. So far, considering Lloyd's personality that we know from the end of the game, it's probably something along the lines of clashing agendas. It might be, it might not. Hey, why don't we WAIT UNTIL THE GAME COMES OUT TO SEE?

Sorry I sound snarky, but I got irritated just glazing over the conversation... >_>

Just for the record, what Mithos did wasn't 100% incorrect. I could never condone him for what he did, killing so many people, but in reality, he was just a boy who desperately wanted his sister, the only one he had and closest to him in life, back. :/ He just went about it the wrong way. Lloyd knew this and before you fight him the last time, he TRIED TO HELP HIM. He told Mithos that the half-elves could live wherever they liked in the world he envisioned, and Colette said that although the past could not be erased, that he could try and atone for his sins. Though he refused, they had still tried.

I'd like to say something about Van, but I haven't finished Abyss yet. Though I still stand the same. I understand what he was doing, just not the way he went about it.

Ahh haha...I went off topic.

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[deleted]

*nod nod* Yes, it was more or less pointed at you, since I was annoyed. :)

Mithos never did recover from Martel's death. As stated before, she was the one most dear to him, and when she was killed by humans, he couldn't forgive them. It only deepened the belief in the difference between half-elves and humans and it only spawned more hatred.

It's true, Mithos didn't grow up in the 4000 years since Martel's death, but this is because he clung to the belief that they would once again be reunited. And he did succeed, albeit for only a moment. It was only when Martel told him how wrong he was did he finally snap. Think about it: if someone close to you were to die, wouldn't you want to try and bring them back? I'm not talking about any FMA stuff here or anything, but when the person is THAT close to you, you'd want to do anything in your power. It's just that...Mithos had ALOT of that.

Yes, what he did was wrong. YES, how he did it was wrong, but in the end, Mithos is nothing more than a little boy who desperately wants his sister back. And I am aware that I am repeating myself. You just...don't seem to get it...>>;;

Blargh, this is so off-topic. ):<

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[deleted]

No, I'm not annoyed anymore, I actually find this mildly amusing. Symphonia is my passion, so I could argue all day. :) But you annoyed me at first because you seem to be rather...narrow-minded.

He's the villain for a reason.

Here, I shall quote from my livejoural since I don't feel like typing it over again. >_>

Tales antagonists typically have a reason behind their actions and they make the player think: "Is this really the right thing to do? I mean...I can see where they're coming from." For example:

Dhaos: Trying to get mana for his home planet, Derris Kharlan. He HAS to accomplish his task, since so many of his people died to even send him to Aselia. (Including his lover, as shown in the drama cds.)
Mithos: He's just a little boy who wants his sister back. He also wanted a world without discrimination, like Lloyd. He just...didn't go about it really the right way.
Van: He wanted a world free from the Score. I'd say more, but I really haven't finished Abyss, so...
Legendia antagonist: Haaa...come back to me on this one. I haven't gotten that far.
Miktran: Okay, not clue on this one. Miktran is an ass. I haven't finished the game yet, but have already royally spoiled myself for this game so...
Fortuna: I THINK what Fortuna wanted was to make the people happy. But I can't really relate to her on this one...

So...yeah. Ever thought of that? Mm-hm...

And another thing...

he deliberately had Kratos' family murdered to knuckle him into submission, he killed billions of innocent people of pure whim (like when he destroyed Ozette to infiltrate Lloyd's group

KVAR was the one who killed Kratos' family. He did it because of the Angelus Project. I'm sure Mithos knew about the death and didn't do anything for Kratos, but it was Kvar who did the deed. Anna took the exsphere from the Angelus Project, which Kvar wanted to present to Mithos for "a gold star on his homework" as I've heard it said somewhere. As for Ozette, Altessa himself said it was most likely to punish him for leaving Cruxis.

He stayed immature and a little boy after 4000 years.

True, but he was 14 and saw HIS SISTER MURDERED IN FRONT OF HIM.

Honestly, he's bad news, and that's all there is to it. I'll bet you wouldn't be so understanding if Mithos ever had access to anyone in your family.

Oh for the love of...Okay, look at Colette, she was the one to be SACRIFICED but in the end she tried to forgive him and help him atone for his sins. >_>
In any case, if we can botb agree that what he did was wrong and did not have justification, then this argument might as well be over.

Yes he was wrong and all that crud, but I still think he's not the 100% purebred villain you put him out to be. He's a hero who fell from grace and (for the millionth time, let's see how much more I can milk this~) a little boy who lost his sister.

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[deleted]

Your calling me sad?
Do you have a life.
You reply here within like the first 5 seconds.

Just look at what your saying.
Your sat there typing on and on about How Mithos is 100% pure evil and how Lloyd is 100 % likely to go skip in a field full of flowers, when 2 people here are trying to put you into the reality of a Tales game.

You say your a true Tales player yet you havn't played Destiny?
Yeah, haha. That's easily one of the big 3 tales games (Symphonia, Abyss and Destiny).

This argument started out with a mere disagreement between facts and opinions, now your just being sarcastic and childish.
Your trying to pull us back here and get us to argue with you some more yet your refusing to accept anything but your own dillusional Idea.

I used to find this argument annoying, but now I find it hilarious about the fact I'm arguing with a braindead Lloyd bummer.
I can't make you look at both possibilities of Lloyd, because your refusing to try in every way. One again, you seem to be under the impression that no hero can change in time.
Lloyd was a goody goody two shoes, COULD HE TURN BAD?
Luke was a nasty grump who was so selfish he committed only something a Tales Villain would do, but what happened to him in the end? HE CHANGED.
That is living proof that main Tales characters can indeed change.

Now I think you need to begin to get all your facts right (You can't reflect that back on me because I havn't actually made any facts such as; Mithos is not bad because... etc.) about what your actually talking about because right now your sticking to what you want to believe, not what is actually true.

I am actually going to find it verrrrry funny if Lloyd turns out even a little bit bad.
If he is good, then good for you; And good for me too, because I havn't said I wanted him to be bad, if he's bad, then.. Sucks to be you.

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[deleted]

First off, both of you need to STOP SNARKING EACH OTHER ON "A TRUE TALES FAN DOES THIS!" :/ Though you seem to be up the wall about it and bring it up more often, Raptor. By any chance, do you import games?

Okay, now at least I'm not the only one amused with this arguing. XD

Ahem...now.

True, but he had 4000 years to grow up. The latter number cancels out any excuse the former gave him. He just doesn't have an excuse here.

Um, he was only 14. Period. Kids (or teenagers if you will, but I believe that Mithos was more like a child) at that age are still more susceptable to events, opinions, and other influences around them (and this is coming from another teen). It's called being tramuatized. Maybe he COULDN'T grow up. Yes, a death of a family member has the ability to affect a person THAT much. It also didn't help that Mithos DID have the power to bring his sister back, even if that was not what she wanted. And this is my own personal opinion, but I believe that he stayed a child because he wanted things to be the same between he and his sister once she was revived. But anyway, even Yuan, a more mature adult, was heavily influenced by Martel's death. I would quote from the drama cds, but I'm at school and don't have the script. >_< But he didn't really care about Mithos' Age of Lifeless Beings or what he was planning to do. All he wanted was for Martel to be at peace and her wishes to not be twisted.

Mithos was in charge of Kvar, and okayed the mission. Its the same thing as having them murdered, himself. Just having someone else do the deed does not take Mithos'es part in this out of the equation. And if Mithos didn't have anything to do with it, then he is at fault for not punishing his own forces when he needed to. Either way, he's the guy in charge and is at fault for whatever happens within his own organization. And if he isn't responsible for what his own guys do, then he's not actually in the guy in charge. First rule of proper leadership.

Uhhhh...what about Rodyle (and Kvar) and the Mana Cannon? :/

Anyway, I don't think Mithos knew about Kvar and his Angelus project, but he didn't do anything to Kratos afterward because he thought that one of his beloved friends was abandoning him for another human, thus deepening his belief in the division between humans and half-elves.

No, you are not talking to a braindead Lloyd bummer. I have looked at both possibilities, and frankly, the idea of Lloyd becoming evil is ridiculous and it'll kill one of Tales Studio's money veins. The makers are just singling him out because he was the star of the previous game for the shock factor. They want us to pay attention to the game so we'll potentially buy it. Then when we buy it, we'll all find that there never was an evil Lloyd to begin with. For one thing, if you want something to be a plot twist: you don't show it in the trailers!

Uhh...this is sort of what I was saying in the first place. That it's probably a misunderstanding, or a clash of agendas. REMEMBER SHEENA? SHE WAS TRYING TO KILL THE GROUP FOR TETHE'ALLA. Neither Judgey (or Sharky if you will, it sounds awkward to me any other way) nor I have said that we WANT Lloyd to be evil, just that there is the possibility. And...have you thought that evil!Lloyd isn't the plot twist, but the reason behind it is the plot twist? Anyway, in Ratatosk, there seems to be three sides. Lloyd, Emil, and the Vanguard. I don't think it's likely that one of the three sides are in cahoots with each other... :/ We'll see in the game.

Alright, in the end: you don't think that Mithos was a purebred villain because of his past and his intentions. I do. I think a person's actions make them what they are. Mithos said and did horrible, horrible, horrible things to too many people for my to sympathize with him, and that why I think he's a purebred villain. Replay the game. Look at what he has done to billions of people. Only a villain would willingly to that and continue to do that with no intention of ever stopping.

Then if Mithos is sooooooo evil, then you don't take his past actions in stopping the Kharlan War into account? So stopping two warring countries is nothing? Although the way he kept them from creating magitechnology and warring again was kind of twisted, his intentions were good. He didn't want them to fight anymore.

I've played the game multiple times, read the manga, read different opinions on character anaylises (yes, I have no life, leave me alone) and listened to the drama cds. I'm pretty confident in my opinion.

And counting Abyss was one of the big three Tales games instead of Phantasia? Yeah, alright, we know who actually isn't the real Tales player here.

For the love of god, did you know that Phantasia didn't sell well here in the US? He's talking about games that sold well internationally and are really well-known. >_> Phantasia may have been the mother of the Tales games, but it certainly wasn't a best seller compared to Symphonia and such. Who do you see in the spoofs and bonuses? Zelos, Jade, and Leon. Symphonia, Abyss, and Destiny. >_> (Though I wish there was more Klarth...but I digress.)

One again, you seem to be under the impression that no hero can change in time.
Lloyd was a goody goody two shoes, COULD HE TURN BAD?
Luke was a nasty grump who was so selfish he committed only something a Tales Villain would do, but what happened to him in the end? HE CHANGED.
That is living proof that main Tales characters can indeed change.

*nod nod* I agree, Judgey.

@ace: Me. :)

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[deleted]

wait, out of curiosity, who is this second person?

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I apologize for sounding snarkier than usual in this post, but I'm currently annoyed. >_> It'll pass by next time, though.

There is no such thing as can't grow up. If you can't grow up, then you're a mental retard. Fac eit, Mithos has no excuse. Immaturity after a certain point is intentional. If he stayed that way intentionally, wanting everything as it was, then he was just stupid, and I won't approve of that. Stop defending him!
I also realize that Yuan was influenced by Martel's death, but who wouldn't? That's the thing, though. Yuan actually got what Martel wanted and went with that. Mithos, somehow, missed the point of what Martel's wish, despite it being painfully obvious. He was 14 and quite old enough to get what is told to him. Heck, genis was 13, and he's way more mature than Mithos is after 4000 years.


Genis was 12, btw. >_> And he didn't HAVE HIS SISTER MURDERED IN FRONT OF HIM BY HUMANS. Ahem. But a person's words can be infinitely interpreted according to the person who interprets them. Mithos genuinely thought he was doing good, in his own little world.

I can defend him all I want, he and Dhaos are my favorite villains. XD And I hope you don't think DHAOS is the purebred villain...or I will slam you down with all my might. I'm even more like this with Dhaos, since his was a difficult situation with Cless and the rest. I just have to say this. If you do think he is, you obviously haven't REALLY played Phantasia and you need to once more.

A-N-Y-W-A-Y, mental immaturity is NOT always the sign of mental retardation. You've heard of adults acting like teenagers, haven't you? If not, you need to get out more often. >_> Mithos stayed the way he was because of his sister. I cannot stress the love he had for his sister enough. It was enough to make him "fall from grace" if you will, and become the way he was. Just like Yuan closed up (I'm assuming) after Martel died and Kratos went emo after Anna died. Are you saying that Kratos needs to gtfo his ass and move on after Anna? If it weren't for Lloyd, he probably would have just kept serving Mithos until the end.

Well, in my opinion, its highly doubtful that Lloyd will be evil, and I think the wires have been crossed somewhere in the information networks on Asalia.
I honestly don't think there's even a remote chance, but whatever. Go ahead and think there is. Gaming a business, and Lloyd is good business for Namco and Tales Stuido. Enough said. From a business standpoint, it'd be suicide to make Lloyd evil and force the player to fight him to the death now.

About Sheena, I don't think she was trying to kill the group as much as she could have. Once you actually her, she's an awsome fighter and master of mystic arts. I've always been of the opinion that Sheena wasn't going all-out because she knew, deep inside, that what she was doing wasn't right.


Zelos alert, Zelos alert. (</3)

I believe that Sheena did go all out, because as far as she knew, if Colette completed her journey, then Tethe'alla was screwed. It wasn't her conviction that was faulty, just her sense of actually killing another human being.

His past actions back when he was a hero no longer matter. As I said, he was good once, but that's all in the past. He was purebred evil at the present time of the game. Being meloncholi about it doesn't make him less evil.
Please, not wanting everyone to build weapons of (mass) destruction that would cause massive damage when fired off is something I can even count on even most fanatics not wanting. That's not speaking overly well for his character at all. No, his intentions were no longer good. He was a messed-up murderer who made himself what he is. He wouldn't listen to reason, no matter who it was that tried to reason with him, didn't give damn about the majority of other people, killed one of his own for slipping up and accidentally calling him by name, destroyed an entire town, ordered his men to allow a rampaging supernatural tree to run wild, tricked so many people into an early grave that its basically genecide, and as I said, did not try to improve the condition of his fellow half-elves at all. Not, so not evil. I am also very confident in my opinion, and I say he was purebred evil. You have yet to even ackownledge that he did wrong in more than mild passing, which implies that you don't give a damn about the other side of the story that victims have to tell.


He~llo, pre-game actions are what MADE Symphonia. And the thing is, Mithos HAD the power to stop all the fighting. Like Taiga said, if you can't do anything, it's all just ideals. Mithos had the power to realize these ideals and make them happen.

Please, don't act like you're the only one who gives a damn about the people he killed. You're just making things painfully black and white, which Tales games are most definitely NOT. I know what he did was wrong. He killed thousands and thousands of people and there's no excusing this. He twisted Martel's words more than once and caused countless suffering for too many people. But think of Lloyd's words at the end of the game:

"You could have lived in our world..." Would he have said that if he thought Mithos was 100% evil? I don't think so...

Abyss didn't do that well, either. Besides, Abyss wasn't the orginal game that set the pace for most of all the Tales games to come after it. If anything, regardless of its fame, Phantasia should have been on that list as well, then.


What you WANT is irrelevent. It doesn't change the fact that Zelos (<3), Jade and most of all, Leon, are used to whore the Tales Series. End of story.

Anyway, why are you so stuck on defending Mithos and everything that he did? He had no justification. At least please tell me you weren't rooting for him while playing the game and that he wasn't your favorite character...


He's my favorite villain. I absolutely hated Yggdrasil at first, but when I found out that he was Mithos, my heart went all squishy and I felt partly sorry for him. The scenes with Genis (which weren't faked by the way, from both ends. The manga further states this.) didn't help either. But I like both him and Dhaos (after the drama cds I wanted to cry). :)

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[deleted]

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Genis is 13, don't argue with me.
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No, He's 12. Take a look.
http://tales.namco.com/symphonia/characters.html


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No, you can't defend him all you want to. Not morally, you can't. All you've been able to do is pull up his sob story, but none of it helps his case.
Oh, I do think Dhaos is a purebred villain. I'm not afraid of your "slamming". Oh, but I have played Phantasia seriously and more than once. Dhaos is a villain because of what he tried to do. Perceptions are irrelevant when the genecide of entire planet's population is at stake. I don't care why he tried to do it. What he did is what matters. Let me guess, you would rather Dhaos won and killed all of Asalia, right?
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Erm, yes she can defend him all she wants. Morally or not, that's her choice.
You seem to keep on and on about the fact that it's what a villain does that makes them a villain, when infact, you have to look at their past and intentions to know how they got that way.
Dhaos is kind of like Mithos, it was for a good intention but for the wrong reasons. That doesn't make him 100% evil, sure he's not a hero, but I'm sure to the people he was fighting for; he was.


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Yes, I have heard of adults acting like teenagers, but its their own fault for not growing up. Like I said, immaturity after a certain point is an absolute fault. No, Mithos stayed that way because he was unwilling to let go of the past. That was his weakness. And I don't care how much you can't stress his love for his sister, it doesn't justify a single damn thing that he did!
Please, Mithos fell form grace because he allowed his own fatred to get the better of him. He has no excuse, and he can't be defended.
Yuan, while he closed up, didn't fail to get what Martel wished for, and was actually trying to get things set right. And Kratos is an idiot. If anything, Mithos's men killing his family should have made him take out a blood oath against them, and if he didn't want to oppose them overtly, he could still have done it covertly with Yuan. It wasn't like Kratos had excuses, either. Him chosing to go back to Mithos after he ordered/allowed that to happen to his faily (withou consequences on Kvar's part) is inexcusable and part of why Kratos will never be one of my favorite Tales characters.
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Your getting irrating by the way you keep saying that Mithos has had all this time to grow up, your right, he has had this time to grow up, but when you think about it, he couldn't even if he wanted to.
As soon as Martel died, Mithos began attempting to revive her, he became a lifeless being, unable to naturally grow, this shows that Mithos may have had the time to grow up, but certainly not the mind, His mind was basically frozen and did not change for 4000 years, this would make learning the importance of life, good, evil and all that stuff very difficult. Mithos is 4000 years old, yes, but he is actually still just a child, unable to learn anything more than he has, the fact that he still wants Martel back certainly doesn't help.
He can change his growth appearence, but not his growth of mind.
*sigh* once again, Mithos did not order for Kratos to be killed, Kvar did the dirty work, you were the one who said it's what a villain does that makes them a villain, Mithos gave Kvar no such order to kill his family, Mithos just wanted Kratos because he was Origins Seal, Kvar wanted the Angelus Project so Mithos would let him sit on his knee, which is why he Killed Anna. Mithos killed noon of Kratos' family.
If you remember, Kratos very much wanted to kill Kvar, because he killed Anna, he would have wanted to kill Mithos if it was his fualt, but it wasn't.

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I don't care. And that wasn't what I was talking about, and it still doesn't help his case. His pre-game actions no longer matter because all the evil he's done cancels them out. Mithos's ideals may no thave been wrong, but what he did was! PErception is not the only factor! What is right and wrong also factors in, and Mithos was all wrong! And your little quote sounds more like "might makes right" than anything else.
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I've noticed every time your wrong, you say "I don't care." You only seem to be listening to the parts you think you can counter, and you also only seem to be saying what you want to be, not what is.

You say the Manga is not a cannon? Yet you bring up a TOP game that is about as recognised as a manga, Manga goes into detail about TOS, TOP:TD goes into detail about the TOP game. There the same thing when you think about it.
I have a really bad head ache anyway, so I won't respond to anything else for now.
Feel free to argue, I'm interested to see if you repeat yourself AGAIN.


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[deleted]

I find this highly amusing that you're the one getting so annoyed here and atking things way too personally, even questioning people's morals because they don't side with the villain but also don't think he is 100% evil.

That's why I said "not morally". Alright, my last post to hein wa my last post to hein, and this will be my last post to you, since your argument has grown repetitive.


("Hein"?) Ah...If anything, YOU'RE the one who keeps saying the same things. I'm spacing out my evidence and you keep replying with the same argument. You don't seem to understand that Tales games are anything but black and white. It's not pure good vs evil. They make you think about the choices you make, if it's really the right thing to do.

Dun dun dun, time for my Dhaos argument. I'll make it short and simple so you can understand, hopefully. :)

Yes, Cless and the others had a right to defend themselves. I'm not in any way saying that what they did was wrong. When someone attacks you, you defend yourself. Period. BUT, there was always the question that if what they did, KILLING him, was right. Because by killing him, they essentially committed genocide on his entire race on Derris Kharlan, since he was the only person who was able to travel to Aselia (at the cost of many of his own people's [and paramour's] lives). Basically, it was a stalemate, once one side won then the other side would completely perish. Cless was the one to doubt in the end of the GAME and Klarth was the one to realize it in the anime. "So all this was to save his home planet, huh...?" or something along those lines. I certainly don't condone Dhaos for what he did, but I can certainly sympathize with him. Especially since he said in game and in anime that humans don't accept those who are different and he has come to realize that. This suggests that he, at first, tried to diplomatically ask for mana for his planet (or something along those lines) but the kingdoms within Aselia refused and tried to kill him again and again. It also didn't help that they were creating Magitechnology and screwing themselves over, as seen in Cless and Mint's time.

...Good enough for you? Or shall I go further? I have a crapload more on Dhaos than I do on Mithos.

Anyway, back to Mithos.

I take it you haven't read the manga at all. I'm talking about the Ex-load volume, which covers certain sidequests and character's backstories in greater detail. The specific chapter I'm talking about is the one where Genis and Mithos get the cure for Raine's Ozette fever. Mithos and Genis really valued each other as friends (as seen in the game and the end of the chapter). Genis was the one who wanted Lloyd to destroy the exsphere "while he's still himself."

If Yuan and Kratos could still mature while being the same kind of beings, themselves, then so could Mithos. And he did change in 4000 years, just not for the better as his obsession with his sister began to take over the rest of his priorities.


*sigh* Kratos had Anna to change him, and Yuan had the memory of Martel, the Renegades, and a slightly more mature mind to change him. Who did Mithos have? No one.

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If you remember, Kratos very much wanted to kill Kvar, because he killed Anna, he would have wanted to kill Mithos if it was his fualt, but it wasn't.
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Yes, it was. Kratos could have killed Kvar at any time, and Mithos honestly wouldn't have given half a damn as shown that he never even mentions his fallen Cardinals. It was Lloyd's reappearance that made Kratos come back to life, so to speak, and he realized that he should never have followed Mithos again. He even said so, himself.
And as I said, even on the chance that Mithos didn't order it, then he's still responsible for Kvar. End of discussion.


? You're not making any sense. If it really was Mithos' fault, as you so desperately claim, then why didn't Kratos kill Mithos instead?

Uh...Kratos probably saw no reason to kill Kvar because doing so wouldn't being Anna and Lloyd back. And you're right, Kratos did "reawaken" after Lloyd showed up, and so did his vengence

Mithos HAD NO IDEA UNTIL AFTER THE FACT. And the relationship between the Grand Cardinals is something like this...
1. Don't piss Mithos off.
2. Do what Mithos wants.
3. Don't diss Martel.
4. Don't call him Mithos. Refer to him as "Lord Yggdrasil."
5. Do whatever else you want, he doesn't give a damn.

In any case, the only reason Mithos didn't do anything else to Kratos afterwards was because he thought he learned his 'lesson'. He didn't value Kratos outside of Origin's Seal anymore. Stop trying to make Mithos sound like a nice guy!


Okay, I'm using you're own words here. "He didn't grow up because he didn't want to." Mmkay then, that means that he still sees Kratos the way he did 4000 years ago. His teacher, his only human friend, AS WELL AS Origin's seal. The only reason he didn't kill Yuan even, when he found out that he was the leader of the Renegades, was because he and Martel were in love with each other.

Okay, I've probably missed parts of your argument and feel free to bring them to my attention, but I'm at school right now and it's very distracting. -_-

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I think we're over thinking this one too much. Here's my lowdown:

Mithos and Lloyd had the same goal, yet both went about it in two significantly different ways. Where Lloyd aimed to seek acceptance in differences of race, Mithos aimed to eliminate them. Lloyd choose a more difficult path to find equality amongst the races and other people. Mithos aimed to make everyone the same to find someone with a close mana signature to his sister to resurrect her - his own self profit.

Anyway, let's look at our reasons for Lloyd being a bad guy:
1. He was suspected for a blood purging of Palmacosta. So by this, we assume it's some sort of genocide. It goes directly against his values, as he has always wanted to avoid the suffering of others. He's also been away destroying the exspheres so people's souls aren't trapped to live a poisoned half life, so to speak. Why would he change so suddenly? without this piece of information, it's impossible to judge whether he's become bad or not.

2. Fighting Emil. Emil himself might be bitter about Lloyd because of the attention he's been receiving as a result of his last quest. After all, in the beginning of the game, he's bullied by people who hate him for not worshipping Lloyd. We don't know who started the fight, or why. Without more information, for all we know, Emil could have started it to prove a point.

I'm not going to take anyone's side yet, but I don't believe the first game was all for nothing. You can't just throw away everything you stood for and act like the past didn't happen. There's just too many inconsistencies with the behavior of Lloyd in ToS and what we are looking into for the second game.

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You prety much summed things up great. :) And not in a snarky way either. Although, I still stand by that Mithos thought (although in a twisted way) that he was actually helping eliminate discrimination like his sister wanted.

As for Lloyd...

http://gallery.abyssalchronicles.com/albums/userpics/10002/60041520080305_135730_3_big.jpg

LE GASP, does that look like Regal to you, or what? It does to me...hm. Although it might not be, the look on Lloyd's face doesn't really look friendly. ;_; Though Judgey and I have been saying that there is a chance that Lloyd is evil, it would really suck if he was.

And in response to your reasons, I don't think Emil would start a fight with Lloyd because he was bullied...it would have to be for some other reason, like the rumor that he was behind the blood purging of Palmacosta (which killed his parents).

There have been speculations on the Tales forums that maybe both Lloyd and Emil are being manipulated by some other person that has yet to be mentioned. They both might be thinking that their doing good, but... :/ There's just too many "what ifs" for us to go over before the game comes out...

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I don't know. I think the Mithos thing is kind of a valid point. I mean the games themes focused on how ambiguous right and wrong really are. That's one of the reasons I liked it so much. There were very few characters who were generically evil, or even just out for themselves. Cruxis, the renegades, and Lloyd and company all thought they were acting for the best. Mithos's actions may have grown twisted, and the renegades actions may have seemed overly harsh, but that's what is so interesting.

I think we're forgetting all the surprises that came with the first playthrough of the game. When I first played I was ready to hate all half-elves because everyone seemed to agree in that truth. I'm sure our vision of evil and precisely who the bad guy is will change numerous times over the course of the new game. We just have to wait until the game comes out.

Personally, I don't doubt Lloyd will be villain at some point, but I'd also bet money that he ends up on the same side as our new heroes. Or that they end up on his side.

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[deleted]

Ok, from what I read, you're an idiot who won't listen to logic or reason. They have announced that Lloyd is "considered" evil by Emil Because of the Bloody Purge of Palmacosta. It also states that Lloyd fought against Collete and friends. Now, that's all we know right now. I'm sure that once you play the game, it will turn out differently, because they also announced that all characters from the original would be playable characters except Kratos, who takes the role of narrator. So that means that Lloyd will eventually be a playable character. So stop crying about Lloyd being a villain. I think that makes an interesting story and I will gladly play it. But before you respond to this with some retarded message, do some research

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I've listened to it, I'm just summarizing both sides of the debate. True, I don't like the idea of Lloyd being a villain, but many here don't. We've done the research, and every article I've read on the subject alleges he's a bad guy, nothing more. At the end of the day, it does come down to perception, but that's where the problem lies.

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actually ace, I was sending this message to weirdraptor. I totally agree with you. It' my belief that the story will start that way, but it will explain why later. And again, they did say all characters would be playable except Kratos. So I do think Lloyd will come back to the good side, but I could be wrong. As of now, he's a bad guy(or at least considered one)

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"Even when our eyes are closed to it, there's a whole world out there filled with others and their dreams"
- Edward Elric

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sorry. But yeah, I'm not siding with anyone without more information anyway.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

You'd probably have a field day against people who love violent games. There's a discussion on the VG board about violent games, and I share your mindset. Evil characters are evil for a reason - they thrive off everything that makes people suffer. Suffering in any language = bad.

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[deleted]

good point. Violence in games like Grand Theft Auto or other games in that mannerism is pointless. But I do think some of the villians in Tales of Symphonia have semi-ligament reasons for there violence. Like Mithos for example. He wanted to rid the world of discrimination, a noble cause. He just went about it the wrong way. But then there are villians like Kvar, who do it for there own gain and pleasure. But Yeah, I don't think being evil makes characters cool. But then, every once and a while, I do play violent games for the heck of it, but then again, who doesn't(Probably a good number of you including weird_raptor) :p

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Nah Lloyd won't be the villain all the way through. Too bad I don't have a Wii. Damn...

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[deleted]

hmm... It's still interesting that he maintains silence on the issue. Maybe it was to encourage other people to form their own opinions about him and his involvement.

I...drink...your...MILKSHAKE!

I DRINK IT UP!!!

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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=avht2UbIIwI The Truth About Lloyd MAJOR SPOILERS.

OFFICIAL BLEEDER

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[deleted]

I havn't played the japanese version just yet but it's something to do with his mind.
Basically it's mood swings XD.
I'm pretty sure the colour of his eyes determin what he's feeling or something, so they change.

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