King Leonidas unspoken words
" Goodbe my Love , He doesn't say it. there's no room for softens , not in Sparta , No place for weakness only the hard and strong may call themselves Spartans. Only the Hard . Only the Strong !
Dilios
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MovieChat Forums > 300 (2007) Discussion > King Leonidas unspoken words
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Except this kind of pseudo masculinity would never be found in real Sparta, because, unlike culture influenced by Hollywood notions of toughness inspired by the US 1940's war time propaganda role models, lyric poetry about love, nature and other ''soft'' or non bellicose motifs was very prominent in historical Sparta, and expressing the love for your wife would certainly not have been seen as a weakness, as can be seen from the numerous archaeological evidence.
This is just one of many grave misconceptions of Miller and the authors of this ghastly rendering of his story, that actually reinforces my point about 300 having an influence, a bad one, even among those supposedly experienced enough to tell apart fantasy from history. Leather speedo are just a tip of the iceberg of historical fallacy, and after seeing such posts, I am more and more certain that the size of that iceberg is underestimated.
vojkan087,
don't quite understand your hostility re:Leonidas
correct me if I'm wrong but don't think so as I just watched it once more today and upon realizing he is dying, he says My queen My wife My love......
BTW this isn't meant to be an historical accurate depiction of what transpired- the bare outlines of historical fact are present
if one wants history, try the History channel or read one of the many books available on the subject..
You could always mount your own historical film and continue to fault what was shown by explaining/demonstrating to your audience where 300 was wrong.
for myself, I want to be entertained and was not looking for historical accurancy. However I researched the Battle of Thermapolaye/Leondias and the 300 Spartans after seeing Butler's interpretation.
annie
"what we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus
"My queen My wife My love" King Leonidas
I wouldn't qualify criticism as hostility.
I doubt one quote could make us forget other 2hrs of gung-ho nonsense, such as 'Spartans, what is your profession' etc. There were thousands upon thousands of other Greeks that focused their time and money on war as much as Spartans did. The implication that other Greek hoplites were universally amateurs that came from other professions is a flawed one. They were the same wealthy landlords that dedicated their time to sport and war. Spartans wouldn't give any lectures to anyone nor would anyone else listen to such pretentious speech.
So those things aren't just minor liberties taken with the events, as many other historical movies took, usually for the sake of clarity or pace, but fundamental changes in the relations and characteristics of those persons and societies that fought the famous war.
Movie is in that sense useless, a pseudo ancient cgi porn basically.
Movie DID make an attempt to be or sound historical at times because it used not only names and places involved in one of the most famous conflicts in history, but used well known and long rejected claims of Roman and Medieval historians about Sparta. Most notably in the opening sequences of the movie. It DID take itself more seriously than it should've.
So those ''historical outlines'' as you call them are also wrong and misleading. That is how lazy the research was, if there was any.
The worst part is that an average audience member can't really recognize what history is and what isn't in 300. I see it every day. Monsters and speedos are seen as fantasy, obviously, but other socio political aspects of depicted societies, implicated relations and ethos are almost taken at face value. And that is the most damaging aspect of the film.
vojkan087,
are you an historian and is your point of interest the 300 who did fight against the Persians or did 300 just make all this stuff up? Isn't the film focusing on the 300 or should it have been more all encompassing to show how every member of society acted?
and how did the Spartans talk/act? can you give us references to your claims? Who are these individuals you are citing?
so what should 300 have discussed? Its not enough to offer criticism then fail to
provide resolution to the questions you have raised.
cgi porn? smh what is that?
am just curious as to why you are so t in your criticism
are you an historian and is your point of interest the 300 who did fight against the Persians or did 300 just make all this stuff up?
I am a classical anthropologist, and archaic Peloponnese including Sparta was a focus of all my thesis.
Isn't the film focusing on the 300 or should it have been more all encompassing to show how every member of society acted?
That isn't the issue. The issue is false representation of those 300, their role, their mentality, ethos, standards and relations to other Spartans, other Greeks and their common enemy.
The issue is also that other Greeks including other Spartans were completely un-Greek, and Persians also had nothing in common with historical Persians (and I am not talking about physical appearance).
and how did the Spartans talk/act? can you give us references to your claims? Who are these individuals you are citing?
That would be a very long post.
The point is, Herodotus spoke of Spartans who volunteered to go to Persian court to be executed to make up for the incident with messengers (known as the -this is Sparta- scene). Contemporary Spartans thought such act was shameful, we think that scene is epic badassery. Such examples are numerous.
The film wants us to believe Greeks had completely different ethos than they actually had.
Spartans barely won the long war with Tegea (Arkadians mentioned) soon before Thermopylae, and were driven off Attica few years before Thermopylae. So Leonidas wouldn't exactly be giving any lessons to other Greeks on warfare nor would such pretentiousness fit in the ethos of the era. You have to know the ancient Greek society of the period very well to understand this.
Spartans were good, the best, as Herodotus himself says. It doesn't make other Greeks 'artists, potters, sculptors' etc. Greek hoplites in late archaic period were all 'professional' warriors, regardless of the city they came from. Landlords, leisure class, who had considerable wealth (compared to the rest in their society), land, workers and got themselves good training and good equipment. A sculptor in such army, especially as a heavy infantry/hoplite would be very atypical.
so what should 300 have discussed?
300 should at least have been a movie based upon a bit better researched works dealing with the subject such as Gates of Fire (with all its flaws). I don't like that book very much for its Americanisation of Greeks and flawed depiction of combat, but it would be far less damaging that this nonsense.
The impact of this movie, almost alone it its genre, was so great, and it should not have happened using a source material as 300 the comic book.
cgi porn?
Porn is a movie where sex is the only thing that matters. Without sex there is nothing else.
CGI porn is a movie where filters and effects are the only things that matter. Without CGI this film has nothing. It looks like an exercise for an art department with everything else just providing necessary background. As in porn. share
vojkan087,,
so you are NOT an historian! I thought not
I have noticed some of your other comments on this thread as well as another re:the historic accurancy or lack thereof.
perhaps since you know better than everyone on how the 300 actually were(you imply that there never were 300 Spartans), you should make a documentary. One that is historically accurate and adheres to your classic anthropologist sensibilities.
re:Troy the poster looked very much like CGI porn as you define it.
according to Wiki, Troy is a 2004 American epic adventure war film written by David Benioff and directed by Wolfgang Petersen. It is LOOSELY BASED[2] on Homer's Iliad, though the film narrates the entire story of the decade-long Trojan War rather than just the quarrel between Achilles and Agamemnon in the ninth year. Achilles leads his Myrmidons along with the rest of the Greek army invading the historical city of Troy, defended by Hector's Trojan army. The end of the film (the sacking of Troy) is not taken from the Iliad, but rather from Virgil's Aeneid as the Iliad concludes with Hector's death and funeral.In one of the commentary sequences, the film's writer, David Benioff, said that when it came to deciding whether to follow The Iliad or to do what was best for the film, they always decided with what was best for the film.
from what I can ascertain, you like Troy very much which I saw and never laughed so hard. All these very buff guys- the very thing you term CGI porn for 300 you are giving a free pass to Troy. That you prefer Troy is your right just as its others right to enjoy 300.
so you are NOT an historian! I thought not
You're embarrassing yourself.
I have noticed some of your other comments on this thread as well as another re:the historic accurancy or lack thereof.
I am sure you did. Do point out the lack of historical accuracy in my claims.
you know better than everyone on how the 300 actually were(you imply that there never were 300 Spartans)
Everyone? Or just people who didn't have a contact with ancient Greece outside secondary school and internet memes?
you should make a documentary
Give me money and a director and I will gladly participate.
from what I can ascertain, you like Troy very much which I saw and never laughed so hard
Troy, unlike 300, perfectly captured how early Archaic or even Bronze age societies and small, independent but allied war bands acted. It managed to capture ethical and moral standards of the time, and the inner conflict humans had with them. Their success or failure to live up to it. Despite some odd and unnecessary blunders the film made (following the Iliad isn't much of a problem actually, because unlike Herodotus and Thermopylae story, Iliad itself was a highly artistic rendering of a supposedly historical event), it remains, alongside Odyssey from 98, the most authentic ancient Greek themed film ever made. It wasn't, as no other war movie should be, a story about good and evil, but about humans. Few movies can claim they did it with success.
That you prefer Troy is your right just as its others right to enjoy 300.
We aren't endangering human rights here.
We are discussing films. And if you happen to disagree with arguments I have for claiming this movie is damaging and valueless, don't play victim but try to provide some arguments of your own. share
vojkan087
I can see why people stop discussing films with you
You are like the school bully only you know best and everyone else are imbeciles according to you
Troy- authentic Really? smh
Yes, I go around and bully fanboys with arguments. I am the evil incarnate.
Authentic isn't the same as accurate (even though some important aspects of warfare in Troy are also accurate on top of feeling authentic).