Whoa!
I apologize if I offend in my reply, but please recall you were the one who called me 'stupid' and full of 'crap' first.
I have been reading through all these posts taking information back and forth on both sides of the topic. Silver Fire and Riley Rox have been most helpful in conversing with me so that I can learn more about the Church of Latter Day Saints. I have been impressed by their tolerance and willingness to share their knowledge and express ignorance in areas they are learning more about... after all, none of us know everything. But we do know what we know... and I know American Indians. I am working currently at the new Smithsonian for American Indians and researching doctoral programs studying Indians.
And Elf, you just really crossed the line and put your foot in your mouth when you said...
How do you know it never happened? How else do you think indians came to be? That stupid theory on the water froze and made a bridge to America and all that crap?! That's one of the dumbest things that scientists have ever come up with!
A) It's not ice, it was land. The water in the Bering Strait isn't very deep. If ocean levels sink... the land is right there.
B) It's clear from architecture and genetics that whatever theory you choose to pursue, there were Indians here for a while.
C) I can find no proof that a merchant from the tribe of Ephraim of the lost ten tribes could have made it across the entire continent of Asia in the sixth century B.C. to become the father of all American Indian tribes.
Here is my proof to the contrary:
- There are large buildings in Meso-America that were built before the Babylonian exile which offers material proof that there were people here already.
- Also unless the Lamanites and Nephites were such a small immigration influx to make no difference to history, there is no record within American Indian genetics that are not consistent with those genes currently displayed by the tribes who live in Northeast Asia, mainly the Siberians. In other words, all American Indians appear to be related to similiar ancestors who traversed the entire continent in what appear to be three seperate waves. The most recent wave was still in process when Colombus landed - the Athabaskans - to whom the Apache and many Iniut are related.
- Linguists are able to trace the roots of these languages much as they have traced the roots of European and India Indian Languages back to one root culture known as Proto-Indo-European Languages. As far as I have read there is no suggestion that any American Indian Languages are in any way related to Hebrew or Aramaic. Even "Nephi" itself appears to most observers to not have been a Hebrew name at all.
- There seems to be no archilogical evidence of the massive military encounters spoken of in the Book of Mormon. For that matter, where is the archilogical evidence for the city of Moronihah? Where is the archilogical evidence for the city of Zarahemla? If there are traces of Jericho, a city thriving and destroyed over two thousand years older, where are the traces of these relatively modern cities? There are plenty of architectural sites for cities in the time of christ in the old world. Where is the evidence for these cities in the old world? Or instead of those, there seems to be no archilogical evidence of the Temple built like Solomon's in the Second Book of Nephi. A structure that elaborate should leave SOME sort of a trace.
- And this last point isn't empirical but I take personal offense to the racism of skin color explicit in 3 Nephi 2:14-16.
14 And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;
15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;
16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year.
The subtext of this verse is that the destruction of nearly every American Indian tribe is tacitly approved of because they had darker skin which is explicitly read as a sign of evil and therefore because they weren't white they merited their own annihilation. That to me is an unnacceptable doctrine inexplicably tied to the racist attitude of Joseph Smith's own time and quite foreign to the conception of the lost tribes of the 6th Century BC.
It would appear to me any evidence for Lehi, the Lamanites, or the Nephites is like that sandy foundation which 3 Nephi refers to (which incidentally is micmicked from Luke 6:47-9).
47. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48. He is like a man which built an house. and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
I don't to condemn, Elf. But you asked a question "How else do you think Indians came to be" and then you said the alternate theories to yours were "stupid" and "crap". As a scholar who studies this "stupid""crap" I felt the need to respond.
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men. - Anon.
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elf_lover1
18 years ago
Wow! I'm totally sorry if I offended you Josef! I just don't believe in that theory that you explained at the beginning of your message. You have good points and all and don't get me wrong-I absolutely love indians. I'm not trying to suck up or make fake apologies, I really do like them and think they're interesting. And I'll admit that I may not be the best person to listen to when it comes to comparison with riley and silverfire. I simply try to let others know of my opinion on matters and let them know what I believe, as you've already read from me. Once again, deeply sorry that I offended you Josef.
Like a mighty army, moves the church of God
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Hackslayer
18 years ago
Hey, Josef! I apologize for my absence in the other threads--I have been busy following up on some of your questions, and wanted to have conclusive answers before posting. I'm still working on some of them, but this thread caught my attention, so I'll try my hand at it.
Firstly, I'd like to state for the record that it is not Church doctrine that Lehi's family and the Jaredites (who came over after the Tower of Babel) were the only people to settle the Americas.
For all we know, there could have been several other civilizations aside from the Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites. I had a good conversation with someone on how this would affect the DNA issue, but I want to do a bit more research before posting it here.
Anyway, I believe that there are tour groups who tour Central and South America, taking people to sites that are believed to be Book of Mormon historical sites. I'm following up on this, too, to find the reasoning for why they chose these sites, and I hope to have answers soon.
In the mean time, I believe that it is possible that people did immigrate in the manner that you spoke of; nothing disproves it, and God works in mysterious ways.
I would recommend, too, that you read some papers by Hugh Nibley, a very renowned LDS scholar. One paper in particular seems appropriate for this discussion:
[urlhttp://farms.byu.edu/publications/bomgeog.php[/url]
You can also access the rest of his website by poking around; I would highly suggest this, since he has some very interesting points to bring up.
I'll post again when I've finished following up on some of your questions, Josef.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
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