MovieChat Forums > The Work and the Glory (2005) Discussion > a non-Mormon's (positive) perspective

a non-Mormon's (positive) perspective


Hello. Just got back from a matinee showing of "The Work & The Glory". I live in Indianapolis where there is not, to my knowledge, a large LDS cummunity, but the film was surprisingly well attended.

I am not a Mormon (I am a progressive Christian who attends a Mennonite Church), but I do enjoy a good, well done movie regardless of it's faith perspetive, or even lack of a faith perspective. I have seen a few other LDS films and have enjoyed them, so I thought I'd give this one a try.

I thought the film was quite good, and, coming from a non-Mormon perspective, it gave me a little more insight into Mormon history and beliefs. The story was involving, the acting very good, the Biblical/spiritual themes undersored (rather than overpowered) the plot, and, on a less spiritual note, the actress who plays Lydia was extremely GORGEOUS in every scene! : )

Anyway, I wish that "Evangelical Christian" filmmakers would take a clue from LDS cinema. Not counting Biblical epics, just about every mainstream Christian film that has made it to theaters in recent years ("Omega Code 1&2", "Left Behind 1&2", "Gone", Carman's "The Champion")has been truly awful and embarrasing to true Christianity. Most Evangelical films appeal to the same "lowest common denominator" mindset as the secular Hollywood films that they claim to be working against. All of these films use violence in a glorified way (with "Omega Code" going as far as to show Christian characters killing people with no moral qualms - so much for "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies", huh?) Even "The Passion" was focused far more on violence and revenge (how about the extra-Biblical addition of the Theif on the Cross having his eyes pecked out by a bird!) than it did on Christ's message of self-giving love. It's unfortunate, but "Christian" cinema seems to have been overtaken by the pro-war, pro-Bush, anti-poor, anti-minority "Religious Right" types...These people sure do not represent me or my faith!

Many LDS films, on the other hand, seem to deal with real spiritual issues, and characters that are more real than cartoon. The LDS film "God's Army" dealt with a Missonary who was doubting the Church and the teachings of Joseph Smith to the point where he quit the Church. Another (African American) Missionary struggled with the LDS Church's History of predjudice against blacks. In an "Evagelical Christian" film, such characters (meaning one's with realistic human doubts & struggles) would simply never be allowed. Or if they were, such character's would have to be "put in their place" and converted to Fundamentalism by the film's end. "God's Army", much to it's credit, does not try to tie serious faith issues up into a neat little bow.

I would like to see an Evangelical production half as good as those being put out by the Mormons. And just for the record, I do not consdier Mormonism to be a cult, but consider the LDS to be fellow-Christians. (not sure if they would return that sentiment or not.)

JM

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It's good to see the perspective of a non-member, and I'm glad you liked the movie. I just saw it myself tonight, and I thought it was really good.
Believe me, we return the sentiment. It's wonderful that other Christians to see us as one of them. We all follow Christ's example, albeit in different ways.
Bring on the sequel!

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Yes. I too will be looking forward to the sequel. Do you happen to know how many books there are in this series? I wonder if they will all become movies?

The way it ended (with the Father accepting, but not really approving of, his families acceptance of Joseph Smith's teachings, and the older brother still more or less lost in a rebelious/sinful life) seemed to suggest that there was a lot more of this story to come. I assume that the Father and Son eventually come to Christ, but I thought it was great to see how some family members struggled with their faith (or lack of faith) more than others. It adds a bit of reality that one does not find in say, the "Left Behind" films, where every character either converts to Christianity immediately, or is presented as a villian.

Also, since you are a Mormon, perhaps you can answer a question for me. How well does this film present Joseph Smith's life and teachings? I realize that the "Steed" family is fictional, but are they based on a real family (or events) that actually existed? Did Joseph and his brothers really work as farm hands? Did they really face all that opposition and harrasment from their neighbors?...I found these all to "Human" moments to be some of the most interesting elements of the story.

Also, glad to hear that you "return the sentiment". There is far too much division in the world of Christianity today, and claims of "one true Church" do nothing but make that divide deeper. Evangelical Churches that give anti-Mormon/anti-Jehovah's Witness presentations certainly are not helping to mend that division. I believe that the sooner we all realize that God'loves and Salvation is for ALL and not just the elite few, then the sooner we will find unity.

JM

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I believe there are 8 or 9 books in the series. I made it through the first 5 totally riveted before leaving the country (and the rest of the series) behind for a bit. I really need to pick them up again, but warning... they are as addictive as the Harry Potter series.... once you start, you can't put them down. They are excellent. And though it is a fictional account, it is based on well-researched, historically accurate details of what the early saints went through. I totally recommend them. However, I wouldn't read the book that talks about the Haun's Mill Massacre if you are out in public. I read that part over my lunch break at my desk and sobbed my way through lunch! The books really have a way of putting you into the middle of the experiences of the early Saints!

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I'm sorry for asking an obvious question but what is the name of these books and who wrote them?


ok. now you can laugh at me.

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No worries. The 9-volume series is called "The Work and the Glory" and they were authored by Gereald Lund.

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There are nine books altogether, and they are all wonderful.

This film does do a great job of presenting Joseph. However, if you really wanted to get to know him, I would read the books, and also there is a book that you can buy that is written by his mother, Lucy Smith, about his life. It really shows everything. You can buy that at any Deseret Book store (I don't know if you have one near you). Joseph and Hyrum did work as farm hands. And all the early saints did face all that harassment. In fact, I have many stories in my family history background that deal with that. The opposition gets even worse as the saints move to Kirtland, Missouri, and even after they move to Nauvoo.

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There are a total of nine books in the series. They cover the period of time from March of 1829 (about six months before Joseph Smith receive the Book of Mormon plates) to September of 1847 (just after the arival of the first group of Latter-day Saints in the Salt Lake Valley). Most of the major events described in the books really happened. I know that he didn't do this in the first book, but in most of the books, Gerald N. Lund gives the historical references for those things that actually happened. I too highly recommend this series of books. I had to barrow them from others, but I plan to by the hardcover edition of the entire series when I can get enough money ahead. I loved them that much.

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You should read into the extermination notice that was issued by Gov. Boggs of, I believe, Illinios. Congress passed a bill that gave all mormons something like 70 hours to remove themselves from Illinois, or else they would be killed. Some other states followed suit, and that is why there was such a massive exodus to the Utah valley. I'm not a fan of persecution for any reason, and it is hard for me to accept that our government would allow for something like this to take place. It's funny that most people are turned off by the exclusiveness of the mormons in Utah, but most of them don't realize that they were forced out of their homes, off their land, and out of their temples. Those that refused to leave, were killed. It's a shame. I haven't seen the movie. And I'm not mormon, but my family is, and I read the entire series when I was younger. I agree with you that it is the Human drama that attracts me to the issue. I am compassionate towards all men, and I would hope that movies like this will allow those people who are hateful to become a little more understanding. Knowledge is power.
akd

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"Knowledge is power"

This is true, I also believe that being of a closed mind leads to much persecution. I'm currently not a very religous person, but believe someone or thing beyond our lives. With that being said, I loved this movie. It has inspired me to read the aforementioned books for interest value alone.

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It was Missouri that issued the extermination order. That law remained on the books until about 1976, when it was officially repealed and an apology was issued to the mormon people by the good people of Missouri. The members of the church in Illinois experienced very similiar circumstances, and sometime within the last few years the state of Illinois also issued a statement expressing regret for the incidents, but I don't believe there was ever an official law in Illinois. Lilburn W Boggs had a history with those members of the church while he lived in or near Independence, before he was elected Governor. Horrible man.

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Totally do think you're a Christian! I'm from Kentucky, not many Mormons where I am, but there are a lot of other good Christian faiths. I'm glad to hear such a positive feed-back and appreciate the well thought out response to this movie. Keep up the good work, and hopefully we'll see more positive and peaceful movies out in the future!

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Re: A non-Mormon's positive perspective!! I saw the Work and the Glory because I saw the advisertisement that it was a historical film about Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS. I am a Christian, and know very little about the LDS......however, I do admire their wonderful record keeping abilities, their amazing genealogical records, and their sense of strong community responsibility. Also, many years ago, I visited the New York's World's Fair........in 1964........and visited the Mormon Pavillion. I was amazed upon entering the pavillion to see a very large model of "El Castillo".........which is a large, intricate temple built by the Mayans in Yucatan in their ancient city of Chichen Itza, around 500 a.d., to honor their god Kukulcan.

There were representatives of the Mormon church in the pavillion to speak with the visitors, and I asked one of them, what in the world was a model of "El Castillo" from Chichen Itza in Yucatan, doing in the middle of the Mormon pavillion...........what was the relationship? I asked this because my entire family is from Yucatan and I have climbed all over this ancient Mayan temple, as well as many others in the area and was very surprised to see it here in something as "American" as a Mormon exhibit!!!

The representative told me that the Mormons believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ lived among the Maya in the Yucatan Peninsula at the same time he lived among the Jews and Gentiles in Judea!! I do not either believe nor disbelieve this.........I don't like to confine God to what I think He should be doing!! However, i was wondering whether there are Mormons out there who could shed some light on this subject. The model of "El Castillo" was definitely at the Mormon pavillion in 1964 World's Fair..........and the rep told me why.......did the rep tell me the truth? I have always wondered about this, especially since I come from the area where the Maya fluorished for almost 2,000 years, until around the 14th century. Thanks for any information.

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I appreciate the question. I'm a Mormon and I hope I can shed some light on the question about the relationship between ancient Mayan temples, Mormonism, and Jesus Christ.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saints (commonly known as the Mormon Church) believes in the Bible (we use the traditional King James Version) and in the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
The Book of Mormon is a compendium of sacred ancient writings written on plates by an ancient prophet named Mormon. The book describes the religious history of three civilizations that flourished in the American continent (in Meso-America, South Mexico, Yucatan, Guatemala) from 2500BC to 420AC. The central part of the book relates the visitation of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ to the inhabitants of this area after his death and resurrection. He taught them the gospel, organized his church, and promised he would come back.
As you may know, many native civilizations have the belief in "The Great White God" and describe him as having come from heaven, white, beared.
Joseph Smith, as shown in the movie "The Work and the Glory," received the plates where the book was written and translated it into English.
The Book of Mormon is a great complement to the Bible and both books together establish that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the world.
I hope this clarifies the issue.
I appreciate you open-mindness, not confining God to what we may thing He should or could do. :)
If you have any more questions, do not hesitate to ask through this medium and I also invite you to visit one of the Church's sites at http://www.mormon.org/

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I am also a mormon and I have not seen this movie yet, but I would definitely like to. I want to know, ¡¿has this converted anyone to the Mormon church, or at least prompted them to get some missionaries over?!

I Napoleon Dynamite!!!!

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It persuaded me enough to start reading the books from an outsiders viewpoint. It peaked my interested in the religion as I have no prior knowledge about the church. That is a good thing as I like to learn about different beliefs, viewpoints.

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Well put but I would like to add a few clarifications. A lot of people question us when we say that Christ did visit the Americas because they have (correctly) learned that most the beliefs of the people who built the ruined temples like Ichaneetza worshipped many Gods and were involved in many non-christian beliefs.
But, upon reading the Book of Mormon you will read how most the inhabitants of the ancient america's rejected the prophets who were called to teach of Christ. In fact, the book documents the struggle of the prophets to teach the people to not worship idols, etc. Furthermore, most the ruins and archaelogical sites were built post 420 A.D. when the Book of Mormon ended and the last Christians on the continent were martyred.

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Mlatapie--You're probably not even checking this thread any more, but in case you do, there's another correction I'd like to make: we don't believe that Jesus Christ lived with ancient Americans at the same time as he lived in Israel. We believe that he visited the Americas shortly after his Resurrection, so that he could teach them the gospel as well. You should read the Book of Mormon. From what you've written, it seems like you'd be interested in it.

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I am LDS and I acually have not seen it, I mean I will soon, but I read your comment "Jo-Mama" and I was so impressed by your respect towards the people of my faith. Thank you very much for your imput, I really appreciate your opinion, especially for this "And just for the record, I do not consdier Mormonism to be a cult, but consider the LDS to be fellow-Christians." (just for the record, I do consider you to be a "fellow Christian" too!!:))
There have been so many times that I have had to fight with people's ignorant beliefs about that subject and I find it very refreshing to see someone like youself being so respctable, and I do respect you. Thank you, and have a nice day!! :)

The crows seemed to be calling my name, thought Caw.

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[deleted]

Thank you all, members and non-members, for being so respectful on this thread about the Mormon religion. It is really inspiring to see people care enough to post kind comments and try to understand others. We, too, are interesting in coming to a unity of the faith and appreciate our fellow Christian brothers and sisters.

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"Also, since you are a Mormon, perhaps you can answer a question for me. How well does this film present Joseph Smith's life and teachings? I realize that the "Steed" family is fictional, but are they based on a real family (or events) that actually existed? Did Joseph and his brothers really work as farm hands? Did they really face all that opposition and harrasment from their neighbors?...I found these all to "Human" moments to be some of the most interesting elements of the story."


This film very well presents Joseph Smith's life and teachings, but certainly not all of them - there's more movies to come that will continue these events. To the best of my knowledge, the Steeds are not based on any real family, but they certainly could be! I honestly don't know...Joseph and his brothers really did work as farm hands - and yes they faced all that opposition and harrassment, and much, much more.

And that's why I can't believe that people think Joseph Smith made this whole thing! Do they honestly think that Joseph went through all that torture and harrassment to stand up for a fake religion? I think not!

And THAT's why there's no DOUBT in my mind that this church is TRUE, and EVERYTHING that comes with it!

Thank you for your complete and total respect for our religion - you are a rare find, and you sound like a wonderful person - you've made my day!!!


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I'm not Christian, I'm agnostic, but I think the most important thing for people to try to understand and be respectful of each other's beliefs. It's refreshing to see people discussing religion because they have a genuine interest in learning what other people believe. I personally find religious studies fascinating.

About the comment about cultism, I think cults are generally defined by two precepts, and in my opinion, only one should count. Firstly, groups defined as cults are usually considered to be such based on how long they have existed. I don't find this to be a valid measure. It would be like judging the value of secular prose or poetry based on its age. Just because a book was written a few hundred years ago does not necessarily make it better than a book that was written 10 years ago. Now that that's out of the way, to the one defining characteristic of a cult in my opinion. If a religious group does harm to its members, the community they live in, or anyone else by its sheer existence or because it promotes such behavior among its members. This would include bodily harm, psychological/emotional harm, imprisonment. The imprisonment bit may well be the worst in the case of cults. If a person is forced to stay in a religious group by threat of physical harm, it is completely unacceptable. The entire concept of faith revolves around free will, and if someone is forced to stay in a religious group, faith breaks down right there. True faith also requires that the believer have the choice and access to information that allows him/her to choose freely. I almost feel that along with theology (whether taught in school, at home, or in a church), children should be taught about other religions and other life philosophies so that they can find out where their hearts feel at home. Faith is like love, I think. I want the man I marry to be a man who is wonderful and could have chosen to be with any one of a lot of girls, but chose me out of all of his options. Knowledge and the ability to choose only increases the value of what we decide to do and be in life. As long as Mormonism doesn't promote any of those awful things I mentioned(and I'm quite sure it doesn't), it isn't a cult.

Mostly, my point is that anyone who respects the freedom and value of the spirits of others, whether they believe the same thing or not, is alright by me. I don't know if there is/are a god or gods out there or not, or what religion might be the closest to having it right (assuming any are even close). But I think if we all try to be the best people we can and contribute to society and learn everything we can about the world we live in...if there is a God/gods or something, maybe it'll help us find him/her/them. And if not, we know we've lived good lives and can be proud of how we've spent our time here on earth. I'd say that's a better position than some people might be in, where they say they believe in some religion and go around hurting people and treating them like means to an end. I don't know if I'll ever pick a religion, or that if I do, it'll be the one that would get me to one of those fabulous afterlives or reincarnations that those with faith talk about. But if I don't figure out, and I get punished in some afterlife for being the best person I can...well...those are consequences I'm willing to face. At least I'll know I did my best. And if there isn't anything after this life, that only makes what I did here more important because it's all I had to offer to the universe and humanity.

Sorry if I rambled on a little. I hope all of you are happy and fulfilled on your respective spiritual paths and wish you all the best things in the world...and beyond.

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in regards to the cult comment i thought id offer this, its long, but bear with me, its informative, although it probably is only going to be 'valid' to christians/those with a more (for lack of a better word ortodox) belief system, not all but as far as i can tell the majority

im not mormon or lds, i was raised catholic and its still pretty much what i adhere to. keep in mind that pretty much any organized religion could very well be classified as a cult. ive seen many theories/arguments that event the catholics are a cult or cult-ish. i realize that this example actually does mention mormons and their teaching once or twice, it is not my intention to rally anybody up, or cause any commotion. as i said, any and every religion can be classifed as a cult by a biased opion or by somebody whos set out to do so. im a little confused as to the difference between lds and mormon, im sure its been addressed but i have yet to find it on here.

i find it very hard to find any truly unbiased information on any religion. but that goes for most causes. anyway, this is how a cult is most universally defined


One must be careful to distinguish between the sociological position of what constitutes a cult (i.e., which states that whatever is normative to a given culture is not cultic) and the theological position (i.e., which states that only those groups that adhere to the Bible as the basis for all theology and practice are considered normative, and thereby, not cultic).

From the theological viewpoint, any group or religious system, whether it calls itself "Christian" or not, that offers other criteria as equal to or superior to the Bible, including but not limited to erroneous and/or exclusive interpretations of Scripture, should be considered a cult. From the theological position, then, a cult can be best defined as:

A system of religious beliefs and rituals with a body of adherents deeply devoted to an extrabiblical person, idea, or thing; it cultivates worship in a religion that, with reference to its basis for man's salvation, is considered to be unorthodox, spurious, or false, thereby insulating its members against true salvation in Christ. And inasmuch as the central doctrine of Biblical Christianity is the sacrificial death of Christ for man's sin (Eph. 2:8,9), all cultic deviations tend to downplay the finished work of Christ and emphasize the importance of earning moral acceptance before God through one's own religious works.

From the theological viewpoint, all the groups/religious systems included in the Cult section of the Notebook are obviously cults. They are all centered in religious beliefs or practices calling for devotion to a religious view centered in false doctrine -- it is nothing less than organized heresy.

To be classified as a cult, not all of the following characteristics have to be present, but in most cases, in one form or another, all of them will be:

1. Extrabiblical Authority: All cults deny what God says in His Word as true. Cults have shifted their theological point of authority away from God's full and final written Word, the Bible, to their own unique, self-promoting opinions about the Bible; they generally will use parts of the Bible but will have their own unique scripture which is considered to be superior to the Bible. While some cult groups give token respect for the Bible and go through the motions of accepting the authority of Scripture, in reality, they honor the group's or leader's novel interpretation of Scripture as normative.

2. Works Salvation/Legalism: Cults teach that eternal life depends upon something other than the Atonement; i.e., faith in the atoning, finished work of Christ on the cross is deemed not to be sufficient (usually replaced with human works and human responsibility). Rather than relying on the grace of God alone for salvation, the salvation message of the cults always boils down to required obedience to, or abstention from, certain obligations and practices (some even including obedience to the Old Testament law).

3. No Assurance of Salvation: The issue of a cult member's salvation is never settled, but is constantly affected by the changing circumstances of life; in this way, cult leaders are able to produce continued obligation and spiritual bondage, rather than spiritual freedom.

4. Guru-Type Leader/Modern Prophet: The cult leader is looked to as the infallible interpreter of Scripture, specially appointed by God to be a special saint, guru, or contemporary messiah, and thereby, has divine authority that must not be violated. Cultists almost always quote their leader rather than the Bible. The cult's adherents often expound the virtues of the founders and seek to cover the founder's sins and wickedness.

5. Vacillating, Ambiguous Doctrines/Spiritual Deception: In order to gain favor with the public, and thereby aid in the recruitment of new members, cult "doctrine" tends to be characterized by many false or deceptive claims concerning the cult's true spiritual beliefs (e.g., Mormons are not quick to reveal their belief that God was a man, who has now become the God of planet Earth).

6. Exclusivity from/Denunciation of Other Groups: Each cult group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea -- "The Only True Church Syndrome." The members of each specific organization have been taught that their church, organization, or community, is the only true group and that all other groups are false. The group's leaders will explain that it is impossible to serve God without being a member of the specific group. Moreover, when the cult leader announces himself as the true "Messiah," all others are declared to be dishonest, deceitful, and deluded, and must be put down; alternative views are denounced as being satanic and corrupt. Persecution is welcomed, and even glorified in, as "evidence" that they are being persecuted for righteousness sake. Thus, if a member decides to leave the group, they have been told that they are not simply leaving an organization, but rather they are leaving God and His only true organization. Hence, for a member of a cult who has been in a group for any length of time, the action of leaving the group is much more difficult than what most Christians understand. To leave the group is, in the minds of the cult member, tantamount to leaving God.

7. Claims of Special Discoveries/Additional Revelation: Acceptance of new, contemporary, continual revelations that either deny the Bible or are allowed to explain it. The fundamental characteristic of Christianity is that it is historical, not dependent upon private knowledge and secret, unconfirmable relationships, while the almost universal basis of cult religion is the claimed exclusive revelation that one person has supposedly received. Rather than conforming to Biblical rules of evidence (2 Cor. 13:1), cult leader revelations almost always emanate from hallucinations, visions, dreams, private discoveries, etc. These new revelations often become codified as official written "scripture" of the cults (e.g., The Book of Mormon), and are considered as valid as that of the apostles (and even more relevant because they are given in these end times).

8. Defective Christology: Cults always have a false view of the nature of the Person of Jesus Christ; a cult will usually deny the true deity of Christ, His true humanity, His true origin, or the true union of the two natures in one Person.

9. Defective "Nature of Man": Most cults do not see man as an immortal being; instead they see him either as an animal without a soul or as a being which is being perfected to the point of becoming a god. They usually do not see man as a spirit clothed in a body of flesh awaiting the redemption of body and soul.

10. Out-Of-Context Scripture Use as Proof-Texts/Segmented Biblical Attention: Cults tend to focus on one verse or passage of the Bible to the exclusion of others, and without regard for the context in which Scripture is given (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:29 used by Mormons to justify baptism for the dead). In addition, cults have made an art form out of using Christian terminology, all the while pouring out their own meanings into the words.

11. Erroneous Doctrines Concerning Life After Death and Retribution: Covering the gamut from soul sleep to annihilationism to purgatory to universalism to the progression to godhood, cults invariably deny the existence of a final judgment of, and a final "resting" place for, the unrighteous.

12. Entangling Organization Structure: The less truth a movement represents, the more highly it seems to have to organize itself; the absence of truth seems to make necessary the application of the bonds of fear. Cults often demand total commitment by their converts to an organizational involvement that entangles them in a complicated set of human restrictions, giving the impression of passionate and often irrational devotion to a cause.

13. Financial Exploitation: The cultic practitioner strongly implies that money contributed to the cause will earn the contributor numerous gifts, powers, and abilities, and in many cases, outright salvation.

14. Pseudomystical/Spiritistic/Occultic Influence: Occult influence is many times found in either the origin of the group and/or in its current practices.


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