Correcting Mistakes In the Message Board. - The Work and the Glory (2005) Discussion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith

Joseph Smith, Jr.

Joseph Smith, Jr. (December 23, 1805 – June 27, 1844) was the founder and leader of the Latter Day Saint movement. His followers revere him as the first prophet of the latter days. Critics regarded him, his religion, and his politics with contempt sometimes resulting in violence: Smith and his brother Hyrum were killed when a mob attacked the Carthage, Illinois jail where the two were incarcerated.

Raised during an era of Christian innovation, at the beginning of the Restorationism movement, Smith built his ministry upon claims of divination, revelation, visits from angels, the discovery and translation of ancient writings, and the introduction of novel social, economic, and doctrinal ideas. Smith's call began, he later said, with a first vision, a theophany, in his adolescent years, where he received a forgiveness of his sins in a clearing of the woods near his home. Later, he claimed the influence of angels, who led him to restore what he claimed was the original Church of Christ, as he believed it existed in the 1st Century.

Smith dictated numerous scriptures, many of which he claimed were translated from ancient records, including the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Smith also created his own translation of the Bible, and dictated many new revelations, many of which were later compiled and published as the Doctrine and Covenants.

In his later years, Smith attempted to form two utopian cities (Independence, Missouri and Nauvoo, Illinois), he commanded his own army, he married numerous wives polygamously, he ran for President of the United States, and some of his followers anointed him as a king within the Kingdom of God. He had many loyal associates who were willing to give their life for him, and also many bitter, mortal enemies bent on his destruction.

Smith and his legacy continue to evoke strong emotion; his life and works are subject to considerable debate and research. Latter Day Saints regard negative criticism as verification of a prophecy Smith gave at age thirty-four stating that seventeen years earlier he was told by an angel that his name and reputation "should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people."

Do you have friends on the internet? Are they your best friends?

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[–] JackDaniels-theJackMormon 19 years ago

People keep using the term Mormonism. THe AP news States that Mormon/Mormonism is a nickname for Member of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints. If the name is used for any other group such as Mormon fundametalist or any type of person it is being wrongfully used. Only for members of the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints. For more information go to Mormon.org. People having also been stating that Joseph Smith was the Founder of the church he is not. He restored the church goto mormon.org or Josephsmith.com or lds.org to learn more.

I agree that without some sort of clarification that the term "mormon" should be used only for the mainline Utah based church. However, several splinter groups claim to more correctly follow Joseph Smith and use the term for themselves. It has never been an official term, and in a larger sense
probably is appropriate in some cases for use in describing any group that uses the Book of Mormon and says that they follow the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith was clearly one of the founders of the LDS church, and the principal founder. He was one that went through a legal process that brought the formal church to come to be in 1830 and the term "founder" is appropriate whether or not he "restored" the gospel. I suggest reading the actual history of this event. When you have done so you will see that using the term "founder" is correct. Whatever Smith did or claimed in terms or restoring "the early church" does not remove the fact that he formally was involved in founding the formal LDS church. The very name proves this is true. He wanted to call it "The Church of Christ" but since that name was already legally taken he had to opt for the one that you cite.

"I'll take the fifth"

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[–] Anibas 18 years ago

Yes, Mormons don't like being called "Mormons" and the LDS style guide directs journalists to refer to their religious organization as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I will stop referring to Mormons as "mormons" as soon as they change the name of their choral group to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Tabernacle Choir" and when they stop with the annoying TV adverts advising viewers to " .... ask your Mormon neighbor...."

Just sayin' ....

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[–] griffinj 18 years ago

I've never heard a member of the LDS church object to the use of the term "Mormon" and most I know use it themselves.

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[–] chickenmindy 13 years ago

It isn't that we don't like to be called "Mormons" just as long as everyone knows which "Mormons" are being refered to. The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints "Mormons" definatly don't like to be mistaken with any of the other so-called "Mormon" sects. Also, in light of certain rumors cerculating that the LDS church is not a Christian church, the official name of the church helps to remind everyone that, YES, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is definatly Christian.
So, call me a Mormon if you'd like; as long as you remember those two points.

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[–] spamdumpj 12 years ago

Gee thanks. Glad you cleared that up. The problem is that you provided the standard LDS answer to these questions. It is sort of like the guy who said that Joseph Smith was not the founder of the church, Jesus was. That is not a question of fact, but a question of faith. Many non-believers would question whether Jesus founded the church or whether Joseph Smith made the whole thing up.

As to the question of whether other groups can call themselves Mormons, that is a question that the Mormons can argue about. There are people outside the LDS church who credibly claim to have followed Smith's original teaching. They would claim to be the true Mormons, and certainly their beliefs originate in the Book of Mormon. If the LDS church has a dispute with who can rightly use the name, it should take the issue up with those people, rather than with non-Mormons. Meanwhile, the LDS church is simply going to have to live with the media and the general public referring to people who describe themselves as Mormons as such, even if they church does not approve.

Similarly, the question of whether Mormons are Christians is one of faith and theology. Certainly, a group which adopts an entire new canon of scripture and whose beliefs depart significantly from those of the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions can fairly be called into question, regardless of whether it has the name of Jesus Christ in its title.

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[–] chickenmindy 12 years ago

My point was to be sure to know which group you're reffering to when using the term "Mormon". People tend to lump us all into one group and think of us all the same, when in reality, like you pointed out; there are several different groups under the word "Mormon" and we are all different in our beliefs.

I know of no dispute over who can use the title "Mormon." I'm pretty sure it's free range for anyone who wants to.

Also the Church does not disapprove of the public using the term. In fact in some facets they embrace it. i.e. "Mormon Tabernacle Choir" They only hope that those using and hearing the term are aware that there are different "Mormon" churches, know the difference between them, and know which group they are talking about.

Your right that whether the LDS are Christians is a question of theology. I hold to the belief that being Christian means that I believe in Jesus Christ the Savior. But no, I don't conform to the Creed. If that makes me un-Christian, then so be it.

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[–] spamdumpj 12 years ago

"I hold to the belief that being Christian means that I believe in Jesus Christ the Savior. But no, I don't conform to the Creed. If that makes me un-Christian, then so be it."

Fair enough. I would note that this belief would, if anything, make you a non-Christian, rather than un-Christian. It is however a fact that for nearly 2000 years before the foundation of the LDS church, Christians, regardless of their denomination and with few exceptions defined themselves as such by their belief in the Nicene Creed. As noted, there are a few exceptions around the edges, but there are some denominations, like the Unitarians, who opted out of the Christian church because they do not believe in the Creed (or any other, for that matter.) One would have to admit that the basic beliefs of the LDS church about Christology and many other doctrines would be very different from those of nearly all Christians. It can be argued, and certainly has by religious scholars, that the LDS is actually a separate Abrahamic faith, comparable to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

The problem with this question is that it is not confined to discussion by religious scholars. Typically, the question is raised by conservative Christians as a means of attacking Mormons, something that strikes me as rather un-Christian. What the question has to do with presidential candidates is something that eludes me, though it seems to be of some interest to a sector of the electorate.

And so it is that this movie is likely to be seen by Mormons as a story of faith, and non-believers as a movie of debatable quality. Depends on your point of view.

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[–] Sosaka 18 years ago

Why get caught up in the name? Most people are perfectly content with the use of the name "Mormon"- both on the giving and receiving end of it's use. Just my observation, but it seems the longer a group's name, the whacky-er their belief system and the more defensive, militant, and evangelistic they become.

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[–] sax_girl2704 18 years ago

I wanted to point out that Wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information considering the fact that anyone can edit the information seen by everyone. Joseph Smith restored the church, he didn't found it.

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[–] geode 15 years ago

Joseph Smith restored the church, he didn't found it.

Actually in a legal sense he was a founder of the official "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"...only a dyed in the wool true believing Mormon would stand upon the position about "restoration"..... Question for you. Who founded the church that Joseph Smith "restored" ?

I have no good reason and suspect that monkeys possess some sort of soul. Geode

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[–] annoyed-2 18 years ago

Thanks for the Mormon ad! Shalom and Kolob to you!

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[–] slc_sweetie118 18 years ago

I'm LDS, and I don't see any problem with being called "Mormon". There's really nothing we can do to stop the widespread use of the nickname. When I tell people I'm LDS - they say, "Uh........what's that?" Then I say, "Mormon", and they go "Ooooooooooh, okay."

I agree, Joseph Smith is technically NOT the founder of the LDS church - though he did get it going in its formal state.

And for everyone out there who's not LDS, do some research before you assume you know the facts. Joseph Smith restored the gospel, he didn't start it or make it up.

Gosh. :P

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[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] spamdumpj 12 years ago

Actually, I have done a substantial amount of research. I do not know anyone who has suggested that Joseph Smith wrote any of the canonical gospels or any of the others floating around out there, but many scripture scholars would suggest that he wrote the Book of Mormon. Again, this is a matter of faith. Surely, he was the person who wrote it down. Whether he translated golden plates he discovered in a hill, as faithful Mormons believe, or whether he made the whole thing up, as many non-believers suspect, is another question. I am an admitted non-believer and skeptic, but have no intention of trying to convince Mormons of my point of view. Follow your faith where it take you. But the question of Joseph Smith restoring the gospel or founding the church or finding the plates, or receiving any of the other numerous revelations he claimed to have received are not questions of fact. Virtually no historical evidence exists for any of these things. So it is entirely unreasonable for Mormons to expect non-believers to accept that Joseph Smith "restored" the gospel or that Jesus founded the church.

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[–] wayneadams2003 16 years ago

Hi, what brings you here? What made you have an effort to come on here to say that? Thanks.

Work Hard To Avoid Hard Work

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[–] ghigau 17 years ago

Joseph Smith was a small time con-man. The illiteracy of his writings is manifest in the phony books he wrote. There is not a shred of evidence that the American Indian is descended from a lost tribe of Israel. The Mormon ritual is borrowed lock, stock, and barrel from the Masonic rites. Not surprisingly, Smith was a Mason! The film is bland propaganda for the Mormon church (since there are no latter day saints). The photography is not that good, either.

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[–] geode 15 years ago

Joseph Smith was a small time con-man.

Gaining as many followers as he did in as short a period of time would hardly qualify him as "small time" should he have actually been a con man.

The illiteracy of his writings is manifest in the phony books he wrote.

He was pretty literate for the age for which he belonged and the fact that he had little formal education. He wrote better than I do and I have a master's degree.

There is not a shred of evidence that the American Indian is descended from a lost tribe of Israel.

True enough.

The Mormon ritual is borrowed lock, stock, and barrel from the Masonic rites. Not surprisingly, Smith was a Mason!

I think saying that the Mormon endowment ceremony is largely drawn from Masonic rites is a correct statement, but there are differences making your comment an exaggeration.

The film is bland propaganda for the Mormon church (since there are no latter day saints). The photography is not that good, either.

Yes, this is rather bland propaganda. The formal and legal name of the Momon church allows for the term to be used correctly. The cinematography was OK.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

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