So shame of Americans


Sometimes,I am always wondering why the Americans often like to attack other countries who have their own life.but after watched the show,i understood that it is the American 's NATURE,It is the reason that American became rich.Because 100 years ago,you did the same things.
I cried for Indian, every woman ,every child who had not one weapon in their hand that the white man killed.and many many dead people under American's gun and cannons.
IN the "911",I am so shocked ,but i wondered why it is YOU -the Americans,why people all the world so hate you.I have watched several movie about Vietnam war,and i know the Americans maybe think it is mistake,but more of you forgot the history,
Because you are doing the same things today!

I 'm so shame of you,the Americans!

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I think the shame is more or less equal to the ethnic cleansing being systematically carried out today in Tibet by China. Or the continued repression of the Muslim Chinese Uighurs. Or the millions of lives lost by Mao's great leap forward during the communist revolution and so on....

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We certainly aren't unique in that respect, so don't point the finger of guilt at us alone, kid.

Try reading about the history of Iran, the history of Nubia (the Sudan) and the history of Korea, for example.

Racism and cultural genocide has been practiced by most races.

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It is not the American him/herself that does these things you say. It is the government that does these things, not all the Americans in themselves. And America has their own life too, so you really have NO business in your case here.

Yes, we are ashamed by what the SOLDIERS and the GOVERNMENT did in those days and today, but they were under orders, and insubordination was out of the question for them. It is good you present sympathy for the American Indians that were killed, because they deserve it. But we are QUITE aware of our history

Do you think we actually wanted all of this? Are all of the action cause by the army and other important officals the fault of all the American citizen? NO THEY ARE NOT. I find it unintelligent for you to say that war, death, genocide and all these terrible things are in America's nature, you know why? Because they arent. You should find out about more of America's culture instead of assuming what we may or may not be due to one motion picture that concentrates on one subject.

People of the world may have gotten a bad impression of America, xiaosongguo, but it does not really mean they hate us. Get to know america before you judge us.

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(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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Just to play devil's advocate here, but surely in a country where the government is chosen by the people (for the people, of the people etc) then the population of that country have to take a certain amount of responsibility for the actions of said government?

Please note that I'm not saying that people now can make the slightest difference to what happened then, but the fact remains that the "it wasn't us it was the government we chose" arguement never quite cut it with me.

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Yes, we did choose the government, but we didnt know that in these kinds of situations how they would handle it.
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(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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Leave it out KimiWin56, the Native Americans were practically wiped out so white settlers and prospectors could settle on their lands. White civilians nearly wiped out the Buffalo, not the army. The vast majority of the European settler population wanted the Natives gone and supported the genocide carried out by the US Army back then. There was plenty of land for the Natives of the Dakota's, Nebraska, Montana and all those states, but no, the Americans wanted it all.

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To answer the original posters question, no the Americans of today should not be ashamed of what their ancestors did, they didn't do it themselves.

And how does he feel about the 80,000,000 Chinese citizens killed by the Communist Party since 1949?

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ugh, how many times must i say this!? It was NOT the american themselves who wiped out the Native Americans, it was the army under orders by the government. And those white civilians only believed that the American Indians were bad people and they believed that the buffalo had no purpose, and that was the fault of the government and the newspapers for saying so. Not all the Americans were or are greedy back then and now. I am of Native American descent myself, but I am still an American.

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(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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If you are indeed of Native origin then you should be ashamed KimiWin56 for knowing so little about what practically wiped out the plains tribes.

A hell of a lot of the wars on the plains were started because of civilian American settlers.

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I am not trying to insult you here, or anyone else, so dont think that I am.

Obviously I do know what wiped out the plains tribes, if you had read my posts throughly

I dont know why you are trying to fight with me here, there really is no need to.

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¸.~´¸.~*´¨) ¸.~*¨)
(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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Hi, long time no see? How have you been?

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary: "Come again?" - Brick Top, Snatch

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Hi! I havent talked to you in ages! Ive been doing pretty well, and yourself?

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(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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Good. Just got home. Yeah I saw your account was disabled and I was pretty bummed out. I thought you left. Glad to see your back.




In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary: "Come again?" - Brick Top, Snatch

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Oh, my Lakhota_Sun account? yea i have no idea why that happened, I didnt do anything, I havent even been using it that much. Where was your trip?

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(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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That is a good point, the Army and the goverment were not acting against the will of the people back then but were acting for the people. Might makes right was never more so back then, not just in the plains of North America but in Africa and Asia too.

Of course it doesn't make what was done right, but the Indians driven off the lands of the American plains many years before had driven off other tribes. Its a human thing, not just a white, or American thing.

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Its a human thing, not just a white, or American thing.

The thing to remember is that it WAS and American thing. It happened right here in our own front yard, per say. America had a responsibility for its own citizens and the aboriginal peoples of this continent and their safety, security and general welfare.

This entire thing is interwoven into the very fabric of America itself. Keep in mind that there were entire civilizations of people here long before Europeans ever even dreamed of navigating the Atlantic of Pacific.




In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary: "Come again?" - Brick Top, Snatch

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As I said " not just a white or American thing" would still include Americans and white people. The point was that not just the white man did things like this, even the American Indians committed similar acts against other tribes. What the US did to the American Indians should not be overlooked, but at the same time they should not be singled out in way that makes it seem that only Americans are capable of committing these acts as the original poster to this thread seemed to imply.

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even the American Indians committed similar acts against other tribes.

When war was made against another tribe there were reasons for it. Some of those reasons may sound barbaric by today's standards but it was part of existence at that time. Raids could have been called in order to find goods, materials, weapons, food supplies, or even people. Yes...people. There is no comparison what the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, and Nordic colonies, as well as the United States government did to the aboriginal people here. People were wiped out because simply, they were in the way. That's basically the end all be all result. We were in the way and we either had to adapt and conform or die. When you are basically given no choice today's situation amongst the strong majority of reservation Indians is the result.

Now don't get me wrong. I understand your point and value the time you've put into this thread--thank you for your comments--but I disagree. Recently I have spoken with numerous non-native peoples (whites I guess is the term to use, although as an Indian myself I find that term to be offensive) that there has been a modern saying and that saying is: "My ancestor’s didn't have anything to do with what happen to your people." I say "I know some didn't and some did but that’s not the point." The point is they came to a land to better their lives but the very rulers they came over under were running a campaign, at times without their direct knowledge, of terror, to ensure a life of unsecurity against the aboriginal people's who the land already belonged to. It's a total misnomer that Indian peoples didn't know the value or understand the concept of ownership or boundaries. They did. They knew what they owned and what was theirs. They knew what lands they could cross and what lands couldn't. They weren't dummies. When the land was negotiated for (or in most cases cheated to obtain) the Indian people were well aware of the price to be paid by them and had expectations of payment. When those payments were never received or out right taken by corrupt people innocent whites and other Indians suffered greatly. The prime example of this is the 1862 Minnesota Uprising.

I guess what I am trying to get at is, without writing a novel and sounding like some whacko AIM activist, is America is not without culpability and the Aboriginals of this Continent aren't forgetful. The time to heal is now while we still have a generation that was firsthand to the abuses, that took place still living. Those born in the early 20th century are witnesses to the great expanse that America became and the injustices in which their parents and grand parents suffered. Justice still can be accomplished and unity can be achieved--through learning, cultural awareness of both white and Indian peoples, fellowship, and understanding.




In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary: "Come again?" - Brick Top, Snatch

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History and actually understanding it is lacking for you.

Many Americans were all to happy to fight against the Natives. Go read up on the militia in Colorado and the Sand Creek Massacre.

They were people who knew what they were signing up for and they signed up to kill Natives. That's not on the military or the government, those people wanted to kill the Natives and the militia was the way they could do it. Because they were too scared of people they didn't know.

That was a scene that repeated more than once in the west and the 'taming' of it.

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Again...doesnt mean that ALL americans are like that. Just because SOME people have horrible minds like that doesnt really mean that they are american. ANYONE can be like that.

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(¸.~´ (¸.~´ Kimimela Winyan

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There is no need to be defensive. I think the story says "the west is a place not away of life": thus american is a place not a way of life - and equally america is a bad place where much evil has been done and still is being done- you as an american must find the courage, wisdom compassion and strength to maintain your independence in the face of the great injustice your country is doing - as does the chinese - is that so hard to understand (is that not what the good americans did in the film?) It is not that you are american and i am not - it is that you are a human being. There are good americans bad americans there are good chinese and bad chinese. When indians refer to the white man - they mean white people. Do you scream not all white people. It is correct to say white people have done it - should they say only some white people. American people are doing horrible things in the world today. And all you say is not all americans. I say what are you doing about it. Did you vote for war mongering Bush or did you try to stop him? The Wheelers had moral rectitude. They opposed slavery. They opposed the slaughter of the indians. Do you as Americans oppose the war in Iraq...do you oppose the war on terror ...Before you curse a chinese for the brutality of his government have you acted to oppose the brutality of your own. Just being an American does not make you anything - try being a part of the human race - black, white, yellow and red. And take your moral blinkers off and try to end the tyranny of your government or show soon of the decent qualities of the peolpe in the film. So many of you live up to the image of the ugly american it is sad. And before you tell a chinese to read a history book - its a bit stupid from a member of a country not even 500 hundred years old to tell someone from one of the oldest civilizations on earth to do that. It is true what the indian says of the white man in american. He is not at peace with the ancient hills and rivers of the continent he has only recently come to inhabit and feels threatened by cultures older and wiser.
A very beautiful sad and powerful film that will do far more to heal the american than any 911 jingoism.
Please I would like some of you americans to respond - please do not curse- and chinese and indians - so that we can have a reasonable debate - because the film was a masterpiece work of art - and if it encourages people to talk and really understand each other all the better.

This is to all the posts

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All countries established themselves by conquering others! Look at the Romans, the ancient Britons, the Saxons, Vikings and so on! The strong will always take from the weak - they always have and always will.

That doesn't make it right, but it's just the way things are, have been and will no doubt always be!

Nick

ps I am not American

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That's ridiculous. War is not civilization. War is costly, destructive, hard to sustain AND the downfall of civilization...Its assine to not see that stability and peace is the bedrock of progress...That is the colonizers excuse for barbarity...and it doesn't make a difference if you are american or not your belief is widely held that somehow miraculously war is the progenitor of progress and civilization...really if you took of your warlike eyes for a minute and tell me how does american history prove that war is progress. What about trade, agriculture industry migration etc. Come on please less cliches. I am an educated person. How did the civil war advance America, How did WWII advance Europe. Is not the current economic rebirth of Europe based on peace. Maybe to progress we should invade France. And if you say you must war on the weak. That is precicely how every war starts. No country will attack a country it percieves as vastly superior. So what is this thing about weak and strong. So the indians were weak. So the umpteen wars between france and britain was all about the weak and the strong. Please less cliches especially after seeing a film like this that destroys all the old cliches of the west and american civilization.
Thanks for the response. I just watched the last two episodes of the series and i dont think i have cried so much at a film for a long time.
All these debates are there and the unthink assumptions that encourage brutality can all be easily debunked. Bring on some more of the flimsy barbarian arguments
No harsh feelings. This is just a debate.
Cheers.

Also here's a thought to the unthinking posters above who say dont point a finger at american barbarism because the chinese did it or the sudanese are doing - so that we cannot point a finger at any injustice in the world then: the chinese will say to the american you cannot talk were are doing in tibet what you did in the west; the Russians will say we are doing in Chechenya what you in the west have done for centuries, the and on and on - that is the world you would have us live in. No one could stand up to injustice.
Is not the moral of into the west that each man and woman in history must simply play there small part and not worry if their action can change the big picture. You are just responsible for your little tiny part but remember that like spokes in a wheel together the wheel is made whole and strong. You have missed the entire moral of the film. Dead to its message. And especially to tell a chinese whose country is not free, and in which people are jailed for the expression of their thoughts, that his expression of sentiment and sorrow for the injustice done to american Indians, is sh*te, when you american in your land of the free can say yes america did wrong without fear but for your greed - really grow up.

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HackneyManz2000-

Well, to say that the American Civil War didn't do at least some good is, to me, a little ridiculous. It was one of many breaking points in American history due to racial tension and, as you say, injustice. Granted, there was also the secession to consider as a major part in why the war took place, but to underplay the slavery/anti-slavery aspect is an injustice unto itself. After the war, slavery was abolished. Though laws put into place at the time weren't all that effective, it was a first step that, unfortunately, took a while to take hold.

We may not be perfect, but a good majority of us do try to leave it better than it was when we found it, so to speak. What that means to everybody is different, and you can't blame a whole country of people for the mistakes of a majority. Yet the fact that we screwed up (and continue to) doesn't mean we can't also call others on their sh*t. The truth here is that it's a quagmire, and we're all stuck in it.

Yes, many of us play our parts and don't think about the big picture. We don't think that our actions can affect the world at large, if we deign to think at all. It's a problem, one that EVERYBODY has. And I, for one, am glad that the original poster had the guts to come out and say what he did. Though I did think the assumption that ALL Americans (both now and back then) can be held responsible was a bit naive, I respect that he actually has an opinion to offer. That he's not, as you say, unthinking to the extent that so many others are.

As I said before, this vicious cycle is a quagmire that we are, all of us, stuck in. And to say that any one person or country is correct above the rest is, pardon my language, bullsh*t.

(A small note: Please don't think I'm trying to start an argument here; this is just the way I speak.)


---
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

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Very well written. This film i think is revolutionary. There is Russel Means, there is Leonard Peltier, their is the old pine Ridge and other echoes on the American Indian Movement. I feel very much the spirit of the slain Lakota activist, who would have been proud of the image of the lakota people, killed by goons. Those who know a bit of wounded knee will know who - but i sense her spirit, in peace.
As an amerindian myself i feel the need for the telling of these stories, to keep the seed still alive.
Beyond that to say why this film touched me so much - is my own story.
On the timeliness of this film as America, the 7th Calvary and the many brigiades that once fought the Indian and now fight the Semite in Iraq - read Satre's Anti-semite and Jew. That is outright genocide - you are stirring Arab Nationalism in order to raise the image of the Arab you want to destroy. You are creating martyrs every day on the streets - it is all just a blood thirsty slaughter, and lead the Germans to insanity and it will lead you to the same.
Cheers

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Sorry HackneyManz2000 but civilization is war. Natural selection? Im not condoning genocide or anything but its in our very nature as human beings to kill each other. The Romans have been used in several examples and the fact is, they didn't conquer half the known world through trade. Look at the word "decimate" derived straight Latin; from the Romans who literally took every tenth man and killed them just to teach people a lesson. Look at Archimedes, happily mathing away and suddenly a Roman comes in and stabs him.
Jokes on Archimedes.

The thing is that where its socially unacceptable nowadays back then it wasn't. Therefore we can't blame our ancestors for what they did if to them it didn't seem wrong; a mentally disabled serial killer who has no sense of right or wrong cant feel remorse can they?

Some of the most important inventions have been made during times of war: simple everyday things like the Haber Process or WD40. War is progress no matter how costly it is in lives.

War is just a pretty damn big catch 22. If WW2 had never happened 62 million poeple who shouldn't have died wouldn't have but your bike would squeak...

_____________

A Plane. With Snakes On It. On DVD.

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LMAO

Yeah & we cant have squeeky bikes now can we!

I come from a land DownUnder
Michael Spears

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> All countries established themselves by conquering others! Look at the Romans,
> the ancient Britons, the Saxons, Vikings and so on!

There's a difference between colonizing an area and perpertrating genocide against its inhabitants. The Romans didn't systematically murder the civilians of Britain after their invasion.

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PLEASE tell me ur not english bond22-1! the whole using the romans n briton as an example really didnt help ur arguement!

I'm having de ja vu and amnesia at the same time; I think i've forgotten this before............

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Ouch,

Truly you have changed my attitude towards myself. I hate my country and even myself now.

Whatever.

You seem to be Chinese. Hmm, China has never been imperialistic in its history.

SURE!

If the world hates us all so much, stop watching our movies.

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Congratulations Xiaosongguo!
What a brilliant flame.
Flushes out the apologists whose indignant self-righteousness is itching for release.
The really serious responses are the best!
Americans patriots I will let you in on a secret: it is ok to not take yourselves so seriously.
Thanks for the laughs Xiaosongguo ...

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I live in Suwanee, Georgia...

White Population: 29,966
Native American Population: 55

Nuff Said!

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[deleted]

I'm an American and I have NO shame.
Man has been invading man, oppressing other men since the begining of recorded history. To act like we, Americans wrote the book on it is foolish and ignorant. No body ever said life is fair. Remember the Visigoth, Byzantine, Mongols, Romans, Eygptians, Moores, Christians, British, Franch, Spanards, Nazis, Japanese, must I go on. To think the American were first ... please, and we won't be the last.

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