MovieChat Forums > Watchmen (2009) Discussion > watched it for the third time - still do...

watched it for the third time - still dont get it.

posted 8 years ago by or_yo
20 replies | jump to latest

1. i have not read the graphic novel.
2. i am open minded, and generally like dark plotted comic adaptations (TDK is on my top5)
3. i've watched it on cinema, and 2 more times afterwards, years separated between the watches. hence: i'm giving the movie a chance (numerous chances)

after saying that,
i still don't get it.
putting the cinematography aside (which is excellent, imo), plot-wise i just don't understand the hype.
why are people liking the Watchmen plot so much, that it's considered a 'masterpiece'? and do mind that i am referring to the plot/story.

granted, Rorchshach is a great character, and DrM is quite unique.
but the night owl, silk spectre, comedian... all of them are presented as typecasts, with no real added value that i noticed.
and Ozy... how does being super-smart grant you the ability to catch bullets?

but if we put aside the 'they are regular human-beings, with superpowers' contradiction -
at the end, how does Ozy plan suppose to work?
even if NSSR didn't nuke the crap out of US while being attacked by US-grade weapon system,
why would the entire world unite against DrM *for a long time*?
sure, for the next couple/ten years they have an opponent (DrM), which is not around to intimidate anyone since he's on Mars, but what will happen afterwards? War is sustainable because the parties *EXIST* and *INTIMIDATE* each-other constantly. if DrM blew the crap out of several cities (seemingly, just for the *beep* of it, for as far as the governments are aware) and immediately disappears afterwards, why should US&NSSR, 50 years from now keep working together against an unthreatning adversary? why wouldn't old politics and grudges return?

it seems to me that Ozy, the smartest human ever, was willing to sacrifice millions, just to postpone the nuclear war for a relatively short amount of time. he could've used his skills (or DrM's, by working together) to execute some other, more sustainable plan, wouldn't you say?

again, i'm not a hater - the contrary is true: i really tried to like the movie, hence the 9 hours of watching the watchmen - but i just don't get it.

- please try to keep the discussion unoffensive -

[–] BB-15 8 years ago

by or_yo;

"plot-wise i just don't understand the hype."
" i really tried to like the movie,... - but i just don't get it."

First let's separate two things; what you like (based on emotions/often gut reactions) and what you understand.
With many IMDb members those are usually two separate things.
- You may never like "Watchmen" which is your privilege.
Why people like or dislike things can't explored very much.
Liking is again wrapped up in emotion which usually can't be changed.
- All that can be done in a discussion is explain the facts and logic either in the movie or the logic in interpreting the film.
In the end you may understand "Watchmen" better but still not like it.

"the night owl, silk spectre, comedian... all of them are presented as typecasts, with no real added value that i noticed."

What the writer Alan Moore does with several of the characters is explore the vigilante aspect of "superheroes".
Vigilantes are often outside of the law. In the story some have solid morality and some don't (like the Comedian).
Some may do good things or things which can be justified and some (again like the Comedian) can act like a psychopath / sociopath.
- Next point in Moore's story; What should society do about these vigilantes?
The response of the US government is to pass laws to ban vigilantes which has some justification.

(I think it's useful to compare the vigilante issue with Captain America: Civil War. In CA:CW the US government/military is corrupt and can't be trusted. In CA:CW the only country which is not corrupt is a mythical African kingdom, Wakanda.
Moore does not go so far into fantasy. In "Watchmen" morally the US government / military is grey, both good and bad. And Moore does not use the ludicrous idea that the country with the most integrity is in central Africa.
CA:CW is a simple morally black and white fantasy while "Watchmen" is a complex blending together of both good and bad.)

"and Ozy... how does being super-smart grant you the ability to catch bullets?

but if we put aside the 'they are regular human-beings, with superpowers' contradiction"

Alan Moore's "Watchmen" is a commentary about the superhero genre published in the late 1980s long after comic book superheroes were established in our world.
In comic book movie stories many superheroes don't have superpowers or any elaborate technology which is at a superpower level.
The Avengers / Civil War films have glaringly made this obvious to me.
Captain America, Black Widow, Bucky, Black Panther all don't have superpowers and they don't have elaborate tech. Yet they have no problem dealing with bullets / explosions raining down upon them.
- "Watchmen" folds in that idea into its story. Ozy has Olympic level strength / agility and like the common trope mentioned above, he can also deal with bullets.

"even if NSSR didn't nuke the crap out of US while being attacked by US-grade weapon system"

A nuclear war between the USSR and the US in the early 1970s would have ended advanced human civilization.
I suggest you check out a famous film about that called "Dr. Strangelove". It's a gritty comedy that includes bits about what all out nuclear war would mean (a small percentage of the population living in tunnels for years).
- Bottom line; all out nuclear war would be devastating.

"why would the entire world unite against DrM *for a long time*?
sure, for the next couple/ten years they have an opponent (DrM), which is not around to intimidate anyone since he's on Mars, but what will happen afterwards?"

This moment of the story was to avoid the crisis of nuclear war.
In actual history the USSR and the US almost went to nuclear war over bases in Cuba (the Cuban Missile Crisis).
Your argument is that if nuclear war is barely avoided, that a nuclear war crisis will eventually happen later.
That is not the reality of actual history.
There was never a moment after the Cuban Missile crisis where nuclear war was so close.

"it seems to me that Ozy, the smartest human ever, was willing to sacrifice millions, just to postpone the nuclear war for a relatively short amount of time. he could've used his skills (or DrM's, by working together) to execute some other, more sustainable plan, wouldn't you say?"

There is an argument in the movie about whether Ozy's plan was the right one.
Could millions of deaths have been avoided?
Maybe. What the viewer knows is that Ozy decided to kill lots of people.
- Viewers of the spy genre, like James Bond, know that villains have plans like Ozy's, to kill millions to make money for instance.
But Ozy is a vigilante. He thinks by killing millions that he's doing the right thing. He is convinced. And there is no control over him. As a vigilante he is operating outside of government/law. And the other vigilantes can't reason with him.
And this gets back to one of Alan Moore's basic premises; are these superhero vigilantes a good idea?

* The story leads me to think about the entire superhero concept. That's a common DC theme. And I enjoy movies which go into this.
But that's just me and your personal taste of course could lead you to the opposite reaction.

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

[–] or_yo 8 years ago

thanks for the detailed, comprehensive reply !

i liked your argument with the cuba missile crisis.

i still don't agree with the contradiction between 'regular human beings' and 'superpowers', your example with MCU is flawed - since these movies are not taking themselves too seriously from the get-go, while (imo) Watchmen tries to be more 'realistic' (within the limitations) - example from the PC Gaming industry: like comparing a simulator to arcade.
(the simulator can have some unrealistic technology, but it will still follow basic physics principals, if you get my intentions).

Perhaps i'll watch it for a fourth time later on, and see if it gets better :)

[–] BB-15 8 years ago

by or_yo;

"thanks for the detailed, comprehensive reply"

You're welcome.

"i still don't agree with the contradiction between 'regular human beings' and 'superpowers',"

We can agree to disagree.

"your example with MCU is flawed - since these movies are not taking themselves too seriously from the get-go, while (imo)"

OK, there are a lot of big budget movies based on Marvel characters. And I pay attention to the ones that have the most serious themes.
For instance there are many parts in the beginning of "Iron Man" which are very serious.
"Captain American Winter Soldier" and "Civil War" also had serious moments especially in "Civil War".
Vigilante laws, the death of Stark's parents, the lack of trust of the US government and the UN; all serious stuff.
Putting some people in silly costumes in the middle of that who do things which don't make sense in terms of fighting match ups is the contradiction which superhero comics have dealt with for a long time.
One of the things that "Watchmen" does is have a subtle commentary on that.
If there was no superhero comic book industry there would be no "Watchmen".
"Watchmen" takes many ideas from superhero comics and examines them including the irrationality of the genre.
"Deadpool" pokes fun at this in a comedic way. "Watchmen" does it in a more serious story.

"PC Gaming industry... (the simulator can have some unrealistic technology, but it will still follow basic physics principals, if you get my intentions)."

I get your intention but I'd describe it differently.
I've played many video games where the game mechanics do not follow physics principals.
And with the Captain America Chris Evans movie character his frisbee shield often does not follow physics principals. In fact the kid Spiderman tells CA exactly that in "Civil War"!
- So, "Watchmen" just plays on this kind of idea which is part of the superhero comic book genre.

***** One basis of "Watchmen" is that it is not taking place in our actual world. In actual history there have been no superhero vigilantes running around.
- "Watchmen" is in a fictional world. And the superheroes in that world are almost all like certain Marvel characters; Captain America, Bucky and Black Widow. Superheroes who do not have superpowers or advanced tech.
- Then the story in "Watchmen" plays with how such people would live in a more gritty way. How they got older. How they had children. How they had problems.
But they are still superheroes who do not have superpowers/advanced tech with all the contradictions that brings.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stoonsstuff 7 years ago

BB-15, Thanks for taking the time to type up your explanation. Helped me understand a few things and I enjoy your writing style.

~lost-in-a-fibro-fog

[–] DarkLights95 8 years ago

Lol i just watched it for the third time today and still love it.

[–] DanTannaFan 8 years ago

I've just seen it for the very first time and am a bit confused (especially about why Adrian did what he did). I understand the overall concept of getting vigilantes off the streets, but that's about all I understood after watching this movie. Think I'll re-watch to see if it makes more sense.

[–] DarkLights95 8 years ago

Adrian saw the conflicts in the world, espiacally USA vs Russia during the cold war. He needed a way to ensure that there will be no more wars. To do this, he decided if he were to bomb a bunch of cities (as a sacrifice that needs to be done) and have it blamed on Dr Manhattan, the world will share a common enemy since majority if the famous cities got bombed, countries didnt need to fight eachother and can now unite as one. That was Adrians plan, and I believe before it there was a scene where he talked about uniting the world whatever it takes and even talked about Alexander The Great as his inspiration. Dr Manhattan saw that the world was at peace, and decided to accept the blame and leave earth.

[–] DanTannaFan 8 years ago

Thanks so much. I've watched the movie a 2nd time, since my last posting. Actually liked it better the second time around, as it made a bit more sense.

[–] fzane (999) 5 years ago

I watched it once, and got it, but it was very difficult. I had to slowly watch sections over a 3 day period, and rewind and rewatch any part that i didn't fully grasp. Doing it that way i definitely got it, but it was a very long tedious process. This movie is spectacular, and i just know it will have great replay value now. I can't wait for the second viewing now that i know what all the moving parts are.

[–] !!!deleted!!! (19664510) 8 years ago

all of them are presented as typecasts

In other words, you have no idea what the word "typecasts" means. It's a verb, not a noun, and it doesn't apply to what you're saying.

[–] or_yo 8 years ago

it's a language 'issue' (difference?): where i come from, typecast is being used as a noun, apparantely my translation was flawed.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

What exactly did you mean by typecasts? Archetypes?

Let's be bad guys.

[–] carcaju 8 years ago

Hey yo.
I'm watching the Ultimate cut right now.
I won't enter in the matter of plot.
Think of the characters as parodies of commom heroes in the 80's. If you have this decade in mind you'll aprecciate more.
He started from Zero, having to create his own heroes.
How woukd be Batman in real world? Someone like Owl?
And a hero ultra powerful? Wouldn't he desinterest from simple life?
And Rorschach, isn't every vigilantee an extremist? (Never compromise.) He has strong political opinions, that's something to pay attention too.
I'm not american so I miss some of the political nuances. I only get larger references.
Hope this little contribution have added to your experience.

[–] godumbledork 8 years ago

As my friend put it, it's good if you like Watchmen. You need to read the graphic novel first.

[–] Opwiz 8 years ago

I think it explores some great themes (can superheroes save the world? Can human nature be fixed? Or are we a broken watch that can't be fixed?, etc), in interesting ways. The movie manages to have like 7 main characters that are given equal weight and all add value to the themes - that is no small feat and why the movie is kinda "masterfully" done IMO.

Regarding Ozy's plan, I don't think it's so important the technicalities and mechanics on how his plan is supposed to work. Point was he uses force and plays on fear, like a villain but for a seemingly noble purpose - he sees no other way despite his huge intelligence, and that is the problem with too much mind and too little heart.

Nite Owl and Silk Spectre finds salvation through love and forgiveness. That is true supoerpower that can transform life and bring peace to the world.

[–] dr.al 8 years ago

It is a movie/book that takes some thought to thoroughly enjoy. Although I am not an 'over the top, this is the greatest graphic novel ever!' fan of the book like several people I know are, it would help considerably to read the book at least twice (and the Black Freighter' also) to get a better understanding of what is being presented. It is a graphic novel too, so looking closely at the way it's illustrated helps also. I never was a big fan of anyone who says 'this is what the movie (book/play/song) is about and you're wrong!, but there are a lot of interesting ideas presented by people here. You might want to check out other stories written by Alan Moore who wrote most of Watchmen. A lot of thought provoking stories.

[–] solstice2000 7 years ago

its average, i wouldn't say it is amazing or that it is awful

i know a lot of people think that they think it is amazing and on another level with a super complex plot and serious undertones, and it is fine for everyone who wants to jump on that bandwagon to boost their egos and believe they are better than others for doing so

however, its still a comic book movie, you can dress it up however you want but that is what it is

a famous person once said "you can't polish a turd"

[–] AndyKing (300) 5 years ago

You can’t polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter!