MovieChat Forums > Kill Your Idols (2007) Discussion > questions raised by the film

questions raised by the film

posted 17 years ago by tim-nicholas-1
11 replies | jump to latest

So in the end, where are we?
Are bands like the Liars and Black Dice really just carbon copies of late-70s/early-80s anti-rock? (personally, I say no)
Does having and being aware of your influences make you any less legitimate or less original?
Does being legitimate/original even matter? (I mean, if you dig the music, you dig the music, right?)
I think one of the most interesting statements was made by Arto Lindsay, when he notes "we didn't have a whole industry selling us back to ourselves." And perhaps that's the crux of it. Liars, et all weren't corporate rock creations like The Strokes, but it's hard to seem like "the real thing" when you're playing to crowds of rich white kids from Williamsburg and Spin magazine won't shut up about how you're the second coming of James Chance.
Is it even possible (or desirable, or important) to have the same sort of legitimacy that the original no-wave scene had?
And what's the future?

[–] Mojambo85 17 years ago

Here's what I think...

So in the end, where are we?
Right back where we started.

Are bands like the Liars and Black Dice really just carbon copies of late-70s/early-80s anti-rock?
No, they're not carbon copies, but the influences are still there.

Does having and being aware of your influences make you any less legitimate or less original?
I say no. Nobody lives in a vacuum. (The only exceptions to legitimacy would be the no-talent bands who completely rip off of others, or the record industry formatted synthetic bands)

Does being legitimate/original even matter? (I mean, if you dig the music, you dig the music, right?)
The guy from Gogol Bordello made a great point when he said that we as a culture shouldn't be looking backwards. I agree that there is no time for that.

Although the no-wavers succeeded at creating something very forward-thinking and visionary, most of them failed at creating something beautiful. Focus too hard on trying to be 'original', and you're being pretentious--it's just calculated self-expression. Whatever happened to being true to yourself? THAT'S a legitimate artist right there.

Why is Bob Dylan's music so legendary? He wasn't ever a true originator in any form...but he was (for most of his career) true to himself as an artist. I think there's something to be said for that.

Is it even possible (or desirable, or important) to have the same sort of legitimacy that the original no-wave scene had?
Possible? Yes, but there's no way of knowing when or how it will happen.
Desirable? Yes, because it advances the art form. Without no-wave we wouldn't have Sonic Youth, or Big Black, etc. etc. It all serves a larger purpose.
Important? I think so. But trying to 'be original' in such a self-aware fashion is like being a poseur to the universe.

And what's the future?
As it was summed up so eloquently by everyone in the film: "I don't know."

[–] forestar44 17 years ago

Liars at the time of the documentary sounded a lot like a watered down version of the dance/art punk bands of the 70's (ESG, Pop Group, etc). Black Dice seem a bit more original to me and I think they stood out in the group for that reason.

[–] drainingfaces 16 years ago

I believe the question facing musicians and artists in general is how to push boundaries in a non-contrived way. If you are constantly over-analyzing your approach it creates a sort of self-awareness where you are aware of old formulas and you are trying to break them, but you don't want to break them for the sake of breaking them. That Metallica documentary "Some Kind of Monster" is a good example of this way of thinking. Instead of letting their creative energy flow unchecked, the band members are trying very hard not to sound generic or "stock" as Lars put it, and are consciously trying to tinker with or go against their standard formula for songwriting. Unfortunately I think over-analyzing totally worked against them and inhibited creativity rather than channeling it.

Creativity comes from within, and I think artists need to start challenging their own inner-boundaries rather than constantly tinkering with a formula for a sound or image they anticipate the public will enjoy and react to.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] heathsok 16 years ago

people make music for many reasons. expression, a job, a hobby. you judge each band according to their reason for making music.

[–] BumSteer 15 years ago

After watching this video bitchfest, the original "no wave" scene ("don't call it that!") seems less and less like some kind of barrier-breaking artistic statement, and more like an antiquated grab for attention.

For all the ragging on Karen O's "like, um" speech patterns, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs are a kicka$$ band. AND their sound evolves with each album. The fact that they're the most "pop" band interviewed on the DVD will surely earn them some haters. But it's damn good pop music.

Lydia Lunch came off as a bitter old bitch, and so did Thurston Moore for that matter. I know they were trying to come off as still-cool-after-all-these-years, but it's embarrassing how much they resemble the old baby boomers interviewed in some VH1 history-of-rock doc I saw a while back. It's not a giant leap from Greg Allman grumbling, "duhrr, rap is short for crap" to Lydia Lunch shooting her mouth off at a bunch of younger bands she apparently has never listened to. What has she done lately? Oh yeah, she collaborated with the guy from Mars Volta.

At least the younger bands seem to have a healthy knowledge of their predecessors. In their attempts to appear superior, it's their elders who come off as ignorant and clueless to the present. The younger bands aren't poseurs because they're not really claiming to be anything more than what they are. It's the fogeys like Lunch who keep striking the same tired pretend-rebel poses. It's a pathetic kind of reverse-ageism: hating on the youth for the crime of being young.

Since nobody really listens to this

Teenage Jesus and their ilk didn't come up with this no wave sh*t any more than the Liars did. The Stooges were far more apocalyptic in their execution, and they did it years before no wave. Unlike Lydia Lunch, Iggy didn't play to a bunch of sympathetic scenesters. He went out guns blazing in front of a horde of bikers hurling bottles at the stage and threatening to kill him. Listen to Metallic KO, and it pretty much cancels out any need to listen to 90% of no wave. I'll leave a little room for James Chance; he had some interesting sh*t.

And to top it off, Iggy did what these no-wavers never had the talent for: he made some damn good pop music.

[–] Cronoyuha 15 years ago

I didn't think Thurston Moore seemed bitter at all, but Lydia Lunch, I agree, REALLY did. All she ever did was that scene back then and shes just bitter about the success of new bands. Its true that lots of bands these days superficially market themselves as "indie" or "alternative", but there are still many great bands as well. Just because someone is a "suburban rich kid" doesn't mean he can't make legitimate music. She seems to forget that the musical product is what matters, not the intentions. You don't have to be a gutter whore like she was to make music.

[–] jarkpart 15 years ago

Bumsteer I think you nailed it.

Watching Lydia Lunch moaning was one of most annoying things I have witnessed.
She spoke like a pretentious angsty teenager (childish look at me I am wild and mad and used to sleep with anyone)
I will always like Branca and Suicide though.
(as a side note, I am not a fan of any of the modern groups)

It left me wishing they all shut up and put on Purple Rain.

[–] twelvepointnine 15 years ago

She seems to forget that the musical product is what matters, not the intentions.
That's the problem with most bands ánd "music fans". Music has become a product and the listeners its consumers. ƒµck that, true music is not about being liked, its intentions reaches beyond airplay, million-dollar music videos and physical appearance.

Fear is the mother of morality.

[–] gothamgrrl 12 years ago

I'm disappointed that Lydia Lunch didn't change at all. Her schtick back then was "angry, bitter, crazy woman" and time hasn't changed her one bit. Sad. It's nice to see people evolve and grow and change. Too bad she didn't. She takes herself too seriously.

[–] heavydamage 15 years ago

Bumsteer, you basically said everything I wanted to. One thing I was a little confused about was the lack of focus when Sonic Youth were being discussed. Let's not kid ourselves here, Sonic Youth started off very 'no wave' but soon began to incorporate pop sensibilities. I mean you could clearly hear a difference when they showed the video of them performing Schizophrenia from a song that Swans would perform. Unlike some of their predecessors Thurston, Lee and Kim could play their instruments damn well.

I love the Yeah Yeah Yeahs and am eager to see how the continue to evolve each album, but Karen was honestly annoying. It felt as if she had nothing worthwhile to contribute and instead filled the air with "like, you know". With that being said, I still love her and the band. YYY's are clearly very distant from the original no wave scene, but I think the mentality is still there. Besides, I think they make truly original pop music. I mean we all wouldn't want the same recycled no wave antics to repeat themselves over and over again. That would be the opposite of authentic.

gonna leave this life of waste, gonna put on a new face.