MovieChat Forums > The Magic of Ordinary Days (2005) Discussion > Arranged marriage, sex, societal roles r...

Arranged marriage, sex, societal roles realistic?

posted 14 years ago by downtownblah
15 replies | jump to latest

For the US in the 1940s, was marrying someone who was KNOWINGLY not the baby's father a realistic solution? I could see it she was involved with Ray and had a fling with someone else, a situation of uncertain paternity, but how many men would take in a strange pregnant woman and become legally responsible for her and her child?

Livy seemed to like to presume her farmer-husband was a Neanderthal, though I was impressed with Ray holding his own and match her for knowledge and wit in many areas. And a man who worked the farm and did not mind taking on the cooking too? Wow, my father who was child of that era, did not care to boil water, or anything considered "women's work," and got away with it.

In the 1940s, did men like Ray really exist?

[–] Bruce7 14 years ago

You have to remember it was brought forth by a preacher. As Ray said, he thought it was God's plan. Yes, Ray had a quiet, steadfast faith and resolve. He had had members of the family ascend.

Can you fly this plane?
Surely you can't be serious.
I am serious, and don't call me Shirley

[–] zephyr-123 14 years ago

Yeah, it was partly the "God's plan" thing but also I think there have always been kind and decent guys like Ray, even in those times. A guy like Ray would probably not admit to liking to cook or do the cooking to other men though but it stands to reason that there'd be men who did. My boyfriend's grandfather is in his 90's (pretty much from that era) and he's the one that does the cooking in his marriage and always has. I've never seen his wife cook anything. I think men in those days had to hide things about themselves in order to live up to some socially accepted image. They were expected to be a certain way and probably often hid how they really felt about certain things.

"Thanks for the Dada-ist peptalk. I feel much more abstract now."-Buffy

[–] Bruce7 14 years ago

Ah contraire my zeph man, Ray told Livy, 'He thought it was God's plan.'

Can you fly this plane?
Surely you can't be serious.
I am serious, and don't call me Shirley

[–] zephyr-123 14 years ago

Yeah, I know. I was agreeing with you. I was also answering the OP's question about men cooking. And when it gets down to it, Ray believing it was "God's plan" was just another sign that he was a decent and kind person. He's spiritual. I'm sure there were plenty of men who would think his "God's plan" perception was ridiculous.

"Thanks for the Dada-ist peptalk. I feel much more abstract now."-Buffy

[–] sweetjenz 14 years ago

Totally agree on the cooking comment. My dad does the cooking in our family and coincidentally his dad would cook in their house. He didn't cook all the time, but on the weekend he would cook dinner to give his wife a rest. Now my dad and his brothers all cook in their families. It's funny how a small reversal of gender roles can make such a difference.

[–] savannahbelle01 14 years ago

I remember being home visiting my parents when his first aired in 05 and my mother thought the premise was pretty unrealistic (my father born in 1929 & my mother in 1932) but my father said there was a guy in their neighborhood who married a girl who was pregnant by someone else. Believe it or not in the 70's I know a family who convinced a young man who was in the Navy to marry their daughter who was also in the family way. Unlike the couple my father knew this marriage lasted long enough for the child to be born and her to find someone else.

My grandfather did most of the cooking in their house and he never bothered to teach my mother or her mother how to cook.

[–] sinceimetjc 12 years ago

My take on it was that yes, Ray did feel like it might be God's Will, but he was also lonely. There didn't seem to be any women his age in the area. At least that's what those old ladies with the cake and his sister said. And he wasn't willing to leave the farm. So when the opportunity arose for him to basically be given a wife, he jumped at the chance. And he didn't care that there was a baby involved b/c he was a decent man. I think he liked the idea of having a child, even if the baby wasn't his; he was going to raise that baby as if it were his own.

"The hideousness of that foot will haunt my dreams forever."

[–] rskidmor 11 years ago

On Arranged Marriages.

It is odd today that people do not recognize traits of honor, respect, societal influences, and the impact on everyday life.

In this story you have a young women, educated, who becomes pregnant, during the war years, by an Army Officer and flight Instructor who has the moniker of being an 'Officer and a Gentleman' by an Act of Congress. This young woman left graduate studies to come home and nurse her dying mother, an act to help her father, a Preacher, responsible to his congregation and their expectations for the Preacher and as a father; with the overriding expectation that his children live lives that uphold their Christian faith, church standards, being out of the view of vicious gossip, and the social norms that woman who have children out of wedlock are 'low life' women (who would be 'outcast from polite society') and their unfortunate children would equally be outcast and stigmatized as a 'bastard'. You need to recognize that (1)she was a virgin (sexually pure) and (2)the Army officer was her first and only relationship until she married Ray, the farmer.

Today, these standards are not considered, except as being inprisoning, old fashioned and hindrance to "our doing our own thing" without restraint or constraint. Daily we are bombarded with "After all we are having fun and it really doesn't mean anything serious!" Fun for whom? Not serious or without consequences? And who is being used? In comparison one needs to study the relationship to unwed motherhood then and now and the travesty on all who have followed this path.

As the story goes, Livy recognizes that she was wrong and what she surrendered (Threw away) only to be held. In times past when an unwed woman became pregnant societal pressure required the man to honor the woman--even with a 'shotgun wedding'. In this story, the 'Officer and Gentlemen' did not want to take responsibility for his part. She tried repeatedly to contact him to do right by her. Livy understood the object being, to enjoy the marital bed after marriage, not before, because too much is lost, especially with respect.

Livy's father 'arranged' to protect his daughter through an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages are not all that bad, unless one is deluded with the romance novels of finding 'true love' in someone else's bed, or with someone else who is already married and chooses to deny respect and honor for their spouse...but then what are vows for? At least today the issue is I will follow the vow until I come across something 'better' in my mind.

Did Livy's father actually 'punish' her with this arranged marriage? This depends on your world view and your perspective. Livy wanted her baby's father to do right by her and his child. But he rejected her and the situation--he was willing to leave his child a bastard. So, let's agree that he used Livy for his pleasure only.

Still the arrangement was not unusual, or as odd as these modern times would make it. Remember that Ray remarked that he could not understand any man treating Livy the way she had been treated. This lack of understanding was not "how lucky for me!", rather revulsion for the lack of honor the gentleman held to.

Ultimately, what did Livy want? The end result...to be a wife with a husband who 'loves' her, honor's her, respects her and do all those things a husband should do (love, honor, cherish, and be a father). Yes, she was highly educated, working on her masters in archeology, and her opening opinion of farmers was their limited discourse on weather and beans. But even Ray, was willing to read up on Livy's interests...Isn't that loving?

When Ray and Livy were married, Ray failed to provide a marriage ring for Livy. Her response was that it was all right and she did not "need one". But then toward the end of the story Ray gives Livy her marriage ring. Livy, in self denial, say's that she does not think she deserves it; still Ray insists. In the scene where Livy is driving to meet her Japanese friends and their German POW in US Army Uniform, Livy looks at the ring on her finger. Look at her face, she recognizes the honor of marriage, symbolized in that ring on her finger, and the Joy in her heart; though she regrets her bad decisions earlier, she recognizes Ray is her husband and love.

--RDS

[–] chiluvr1228 11 years ago

Excellent post! I love this movie and it sort of reminds me of "Love Comes Softly". I enjoyed Ray's character a lot and thought he was truly a man of integrity.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Let's not ask for the moon, we have the stars".

[–] artistathome 9 years ago

Whenever you say how can anyone do that and it seems barbaric, just subtract the years between 1944 and 2005 when this movie aired.
It is a long time and much has changed and not for the better in some ways.

Back then, you could live out on a farm with no news for weeks! No phone, no indoor bathroom in fact.
So he had hot and cold running water and had to have the phone installed! She was from the big city where all the modern conveniences existed. But yet, no tv, no cable, no internet, no facebook, etc.

Up until 10+ years ago, the internet was not what it is today. Our children do not understand how we grew up. I am 65 and tv was just beginning when I was around 6 or 7! 3 channels and all black and white.

Oh yes, a young woman would have married someone to save her reputation and he being stuck on the farm out in the boondocks, would agree to father her child. people wanted families and stability. So it was a win for both of them.

[–] troubleocity 12 years ago

He was living alone for a long time. Of course he knew how to cook.

As for marrying someone, a lot of times marriage was done for practical reasons. If he had someone taking care of the house and some of the animals, he could devote more time to the fields. There were men then and men now who would help out a damsel in distress like that.

He struck me as too shy to find a woman on his own.

Spreading warm fuzzies wherever I go.

[–] rskidmor 11 years ago

In the 1940's Yes. They even exist today, but they are very rare because of the current world view.

[–] lichencraig 8 years ago

I think I'm quite a bit older than you are. I can assure you, this actually was not an unusual situation in that era. To have a child out of wedlock was such an embarrassment for a young woman and her family, and could ruin her life; I don't think people today understand how much of an issue that would be back then. If you understand that, you can appreciate then how cruel the man had to be who risked getting her pregnant. In effect he threw HER life away, and walked away selfishly.

To send her away to have the child was common. Many a young woman would take a little "vacation" and come back and no one knew anything. As far as marrying a stranger... this was an era when agriculture was respected and many an American family made a living from it. A farmer NEEDED a wife to help with the hard work of running a farm. People were more practical then... a young wife and a child were a great way for a young man alone on a farm to start out successfully (not only the wife but a child meant extra hands). This would have been a logical arrangement, and mutually beneficial. She gets anonymity and the opportunity to pass her pregnancy away from her past; he gets company and help. She could have adopted the child out and gone back to the city, but she of course chooses to stay where she is accepted and loved.

I grew up with men like Ray - ranchers and farmers, good, decent, honorable men who would have tried to give a young woman in trouble a chance at a fresh start, in return for a helpmate on the farm.

I enjoyed the cultural difference in the film: Livy's snobbishness, being raised in the city and with the privilege of higher education, caused her to assume some stupid things. She assumed Ray was far more naive than he actually was. (Believe me... people who work the land are not stupid.) I like how they came to respect and then love each other.

[–] Mustang (5222) 2 years ago

Moral standards tended to get relaxed in time of war and WW2 was no different. Especially in Europe where death could come at any moment. And even in the US you had men going off to war saying goodbye to sweethearts etc. Not everyone is going to wait to get married.

Lots of widowed women as well and people in general who have lost loved ones and are trying to rebuild their lives.

I do think it was a little too simple in the end that he was willing to do the cooking just because she couldn't cook, although I think she could. The omelette she made looked nice it was just probably too heavy with the jalapeno's. Lots of older women in town she could have learned from anyway.

I think it was really just shown to display he was trying to change, as with letting the dog in the house when it was cold.

I also wonder how many people even would know if the kid wasn't his anyway. I don't think they would be advertising that so readily. I am surprised when they do the fast forward at the end and they don't have a second kid on the way. I don't think we ever saw them have sex in the film. Understandable as she was pregnant and a religious guy like him would not be ok with that but it did make me wonder if they ever got there and if she was just using him for a place to stay.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

No, that sort of thing actually happened! Years ago I read the autobiography of Naomi Judd, country singer and mother of actress Ashley and singer Winona Judd, and well. She had almost exactly that kind of marriage!

She didn't admit it in the book although it all came out later: She got pregnant young, by a guy who didn't care to stick around. One of the local boys offered to marry her and bring up the baby as his own, I guess he thought this was a good way to get a beautiful wife, so he put his name on Winona's birth certificate and fathered Ashley a couple of years later. The marriage failed, of course, but it proves that there were guys who were willing to marry pregnant women in those days, and shows why these two sisters look so little alike.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.74fa88b4a2f519c43d82de8f076b8510?rik=ltuxqxdpaLP7Jg&pid=ImgRaw&r=0