MovieChat Forums > Ico (2001) Discussion > The time between Shadow and Ico.

The time between Shadow and Ico.

posted 17 years ago by Orpheum1000
22 replies | jump to latest

I was playing the game and decided to count the sarcophagi in the room while fighting the smokemen.

I counted 54 (53 if you don't coung Ico among the total)

Well I was thinking, it's said in the manual that horned boys are born every generation, right?

It's said a generation is every 22 years. So I do a bit of math.

22 x 53 = 1166.

So that would mean at least 1166 years have passed since the village began sacrificing the children.

But I will admit it's not a perfect theory. From the end of Shadow, we know that Wander sires the line of Horned boys, but we have no clue when the village (or villages possibly) began taking the boys to the castle. Meaning, several children may have been born and not killed off.

Also since it's not known exactly if a child was born EVERY single generation or just every now and then. This does at least give some idea if any of how long it has been since the end of Shadow of the Colossus and where Ico begins.

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

This also draws in the question of how exactly the Queen learned of the horned boys. I seriously doubt she ever leaves the castle, or talks to any other person (what does she do all the time?).

Maybe it was written in a sort of history about how the God of Light, Dormin, was merged with a fallen warrior (Wander) and became a horned child.

She needs Dormin's power for part of her "ritual" to let her be reborn within Yorda, her daughter and new body. So basically lets the human part rot in the tomb, then the dormin remainant is free within the castle.

At the end of the game, it looks like the Queen was ready for Yorda to become hr new body. But she only had 53 Dormin remainants at that time, since Ico (by pure luck) was released. My question is, since she didn't need Ico to complete the ritual, why didn't she become Yorda a generation earlier?

I still don't get how Dormin is needed for her body-switch. It's true that at the end of the game, Yorda is revived by Dormin's powers (and turned into a shadow, like how Wander was revived and turned into a Shadow as well)

But why did the Queen need the power?

Ofcourse, we could always dive into the Mono=The Queen theory. In the castle, there is a statue that resembles Wander remarkably. Mono and the Queen look somewhat alike. Capturing the Horned Boys could also simply be an obsession to "be" with Wander again, her lost love (ironically, since Mono was Wander's lost love until the end. Such a tragic tale)

WHich would mean the Horned Boys had no purpose within her "Yorda Take Over" ritual. She just kept them because they were, in a way of reincarnation, Wander.

...But I don't really believe this theory. You can see the Castle in Shadow of the Colossus in the distance, the Forsaken Land from SotC has the same beach that Ico and Yorda end up on at the end of the game - meaning the Shrine of Worship ain't the underdeveloped "Ico Castle".

I dunno..any thoughts? Maybe the Queen was capable of taking over Yorda whenever she wanted to, but hadn't yet because its not the time (her body still has life in it). The Horned Boys could simply be a sick collection she has - or perhaps wasn't her idea to keep them there in the first place, but the Villager's beliefs to store them in the Castle.

But why would the Queen leave her Sword there for them to store them in there? Now this is going back to my "Sick Collection" theory. Or perhaps she just wants them so she has more "guardians" to keep Yorda in from escaping?

...But if thats the case, why did the Queen put Yorda in a cell? Surely she wouldn't need guardians if Yorda was safely locked away, and theres no way she would have predicted Ico's escape from his tomb.

They could be used to keep anybody out of the castle... but...

Gah. I'm confusing myself with theories. Any thoughts?

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

ya i was wondering if u could post maybe some pics of the references u found in sotc about ico, like the castle in the distance and the beach

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

The Castle in the Mist:
http://z-o-g.org/gallery2/ico/watc-caps/brl/?g2_page=1

The Beach in Ico's ending:
http://z-o-g.org/gallery2/ico/watc-caps/watc-ico-beach-1.jpg.html
http://z-o-g.org/gallery2/ico/watc-caps/watc-ico-beach-2.jpg.html

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

wow those pics are crazy, kinda eerie almost u know? thx for the posts. Damn what great games!

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

by the way, sorry maybe a little much to ask but could u post maybe the pic of the wander statue in ico...

[–] Orpheum1000 17 years ago

My guess is that the Queen may have finally decided now was the time to switch bodies with Yorda. And because Ico was so persistant in protecting her and surviving, she grudgingly choose to let him go if he left the sword.

As for imprisoning Yorda, we'll probably never know, since Ueda likes keeping severe details unknown (Mono's exact reason for being sacrificed for instance) and letting us decide.

It does invoke a classic fairy tale feel when you think about it, and Ueda intended for the game to be much like a fairy tale.

My only theory on the Queen's origin. Is that she may have been a preistess or an actual Queen who was fearful of old age. When she learned of the horned boys, and their connection to Dormin (who were said to have power over life and death) she commanded the village to bring them to her and seal them.

She performed a ritual and got shadow powers, and likely had no problem at first. But over time she realized the Dormins power wasn't working well enough and so made it that all horned boys were brought to her.

As for why no one mentions her, she either never appeared directly and ordered the boys be brought to her, or possibly went into hiding at some point after starting the collection.

I will say it's a good question about what would happen if she collection more horned children, does she have more tombs or would she simply use the same ones as before?

As for the pics, I've seen them alot, and I gotta say it's interesting to wonder if they really mean anything or if the 'castle' is just a glitchy thing.

I'm sure Ueda will find subtle ways to tie the loose end later. Possibly the next game will take place between Shadow and Ico and give clues to both.

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

*nodds* Yes, these games are really for the players to try to make decide what is going on within the two games, and the time between them.

Some may even say, and it may very well be true, that Mono's "Cursed Fate" was that she would oneday turn into the Dark Queen. In would be ironic, because in the first game (Ico) she is the one you are trying to defeat in the game. But in the prequel (Shadow) you are the one trying to bring her back to life.

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

Something I stumbled upon that a very talented artist drew based on his thoughts on what happens between Shadow and Ico:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80369

Like I said, Mono being the soon-to-be Queen or simply a completely different character are both equally possible (although I do find the Mono=Queen theory more interesting)

As for the picture of the Wander Statue in Ico... I don't have one handy. But if you wanna see and have Ico handy, re-start the game to see it. it's very close to the beginning of the game - right after releasing Yorda from her cage. When you come to a long bridge with a statue at the nearest end. The statue is of a man with horns (one is broken off) who is wearing clothes and a hairstyle very similar to Wander's.

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

hey thx for the description on the statue ill have to check it out.
another interesting thing to think about is that dormin had sixteen different parts and u could see them in sotc. But in ico there are many different spirits walking around. so how did there get to be so many?

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

dang those pics are kickass btw just checked em out

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

About how the horned children can some to so many (53 including Ico I think) and while there were only 16 colossal to seal Dormin... I very much doubt each horned child has alot of Dormin's essence within them - probably only enough to create the horns (remember when Wander had all of Dormin within his body, his blood was black, his skin extremely pale, his eyes (I think) were completely white, his hair was blackish blue... you get the idea.

The horned children (Ico at least) only have horns on their heads, so they probably only have a very small part of Dormin (who knows if there are more than 53 parts)

[–] Orpheum1000 17 years ago

Let us not forget that Dormin is supposed to be several entities. I think they had 1 body, like other similar celestial beings, but the cult that Emon follows severed it into 16 segments.

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

one of things i just recently was thinking about was the fact that the spirits never attacked wander(except maybe to threaten him) and after he kills each collosi he seems to have somewhat control or a bond with the spirits. Because of his willingness to help dormin they seem to, i cant think of another word, like him. So maybe the queen also struck up a deal or alliance with dormin, i mean the characteristics of her body and the control she has over the spirits somewhat gives evidence to this... i dont know what do u guys think?

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

Y'kno, that makes sense.

Dormin's deal to Wander was that he will grant his wish if (to revive Mono) if he gathered his torn body.

Perhaps the Queen also made a deal to Dormin, and if the Queen gathered Dormin's fragments (ala by letting the children who carry them rot in a tomb until all thats left is the spirit) Dormin will grant the Queen's wish - to make Yorda her new body which will prolong her life.

That theory is a very good connection between the games. Although I don't think it would work very well with the Queen=Mono theory, but whose to say Mono and the Queen aren't different people?

I mean, you can see the castle in SotC (see pictures above) so it was around before the horned children even existed. And the Queen is no doubt connected to the Castle. Since the Queen is old, the castle is in disrepair (breaking apart, unsafe) and when the Queen is ultimately killed, the Castle is destroyed.

So yes, Mono and the Queen most likely aren't the same person. Mono's role in the series was basically the reason how the horned children came to be.

I do wonder what her cursed fate supposily was...

[–] Orpheum1000 17 years ago

Very true, for one, if you look at Mono and the Queen's faces. They don't seem alike, despite the age difference. (Mono probably about 17 or so and Queen like 30 or so facewise)

And it is a good question if that really is the castle from Ico. For one, we're able to see it peeking over the ridge that cuts off the Forbidden land from the rest of the world. Yet, if you look closely at the castle in Ico, the top of it just barely breaches the thick forest. I think that 'castle' could be a polygon easter egg or possibly nothing. The beach on the other hand is likely just a complete easter egg. Since if you look closely behind Ico with the camera when he washes up on the shore, you can just barely make out the stone idol gate where the landbase half of the bridge is. Meaning Ico's boat didn't sail too far from the castle after it sunk.

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

so i guess another question is, what do u guys hope will be the next game in the series, shoul it be after ico, before shadow, or in between? One of the main things that ties these games together is dormin and the spirits, so if it was after ico, would that mean that he, dormin, would show up again as maybe descendants of ico? If it was before shadow it would most likely deal with the sealing of dormin or the discovery of him maybe. While in between could be a number of different things...

[–] Orpheum1000 17 years ago

I'd have to say it would only work best inbetween. It doesn't (and likely wouldn't) need to be directly connected to Shadow, but use the same idea of hinting at events that aren't fully resolved. So it could go that it hints at Shadow's aftermath, and give a glimpse or inkling of what will come in Ico.

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

Is there even going to be a "next game"?

I mean, at the end of Ico, what exactly happend to Dormin's spirits? Ico seemed to have destroyed them, or trap them within the tombs at least. Then at the end, Dormin's spirits revive Yorda, turning her into the same image Wander had become when Dormin revived him.

But at the end of the game, Yorda is returned to her normal self. So... what exactly happend to the spirits? What exactly did Ico do to the spirits when he struck them with the Queen's Sword? Throughout the game Ico simply defeats the spirits, but at the end it looks like he kills them.

I kinda have this theory that throughout the game, the spirits Ico faces are Dormin's. They can be aggressive, and sometimes change into animal shapes (some look almost identical to Dormin's real form, but much smaller ofcourse).

But at the end of the game, everyone of the spirits look like a shadowed Ico. I kinda think that when Ico defeats the Dormin spirit throughout the game, while the spirit isn't destroyed, the part of Dormin is (the spirit is both the horned child's ghost and Dormin's essense, I believe) defeated - leaving only the horned child's spirits left, which I believe we see at the end.

Supporting this theory of mine is the fact that, not only have they taken a more humanoid shape, but their attitude is much different. They aren't aggressive -they don't even try to attack Ico. They dance around the room, they are curious of Yorda's stone transformation - they act like children.

I believe that the spirits Ico faces with the Queen's Sword at the end of the game are the spirits of the horned children, now in control of the spirit since the Dormin part was already defeated by Ico throughout the game.

So at the end, Ico is freeing the "tormented souls" by destroying them with the Queen's Sword. And at the end of the game, as thanks to Ico for freeing them by destroying Dormin, they use their power to revive Yorda (since they still have some connection to the Dormin's strength of revival).

So I think the game Ico is kinda a resolution to the events Wander had started. Dormin is defeated (since we know he can be hurt by manmade weapons) and hence forth the line of horned children will probably end (since Dormin can no longer become complete).

Actually, if you remember at the end of Shadow, Emon prays that if it's possible, that oneday Wander can atone for his sins.

I believe Ico (sharing the same blood as Wander, perhaps even a reincartion of Wander) does this throughout the game. At him losing his horns in the final battle is symbolic of this atonement - no longer taking to carry the "horns of sin"

But, as always, this is nothing more than a theory...

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

well not to brown nose or anything but i think between the three of us we have some pretty decent theories going on here, all of them pretty valid. Ya there was definetely something symbolic about his horns breaking the game specifically focuses on the moments when they break. K, so nintendo pro what about in between shadow and ico, u think it would be good to have a game in there? just out of curiousity whats your guys' top 5 fav games too, just to get an idea on ur tastes...

[–] Sylent_Hill 17 years ago

Only 5? Gah

-Metal Gear Solid (complete series)
-Tales of Symphonia
-Tales of Legendia
-Tales of the Abyss
-Devil May Cry
-Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition
-Ico
-Shadow of the Colossus
-Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King
-Final Fantasy (VII-IX)
-Silent Hill 2
-Resident Evil 4
-Fable: The Lost Chapters
-Indigo Prophecy
-God of War
-Gears of War
-Call of Duty 2
-Kingdom Hearts (I & II)
-The Legend of Zelda (Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess)
-Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and The Lost Ocean
-Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

...>.>;;;

[–] maverick71388 17 years ago

lol sorry i put a limit... here ill say my 10 in no particular order

1. Shadow of the Colossus
2. Final Fantasy 7
3. Halo
4. Ico
5. Guitar Hero (both)
6. Chrono Trigger
7. Space Ace (classic :P )
8. Resident Evil series
9. Indigo Prophecy (unique game)
10. Grand Theft Auto series (vice was my fav tho)

[–] 17 years ago

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