MovieChat Forums > Revelations (2005) Discussion > Debate Time!

Debate Time!

posted 19 years ago by Crisis892000
4 replies | jump to latest

Ok, I don't want this topic to end up being a hate thread because of people who are unable to control their temper. I just thought I would post some reasons why I believe in Christianity. Then, if you feel like it, please feel free to debate with me (note the word debate, not argue). I feel very much up to it and will reply back to any reply as soon as possible. The NUMBER ONE most important rule of this thread is, no bashing or insults. If you don't agree with someone's opinions, then so be it and feel free to express yourself, just be polite about it and no't persecute them for their beliefs.

Let's start with the resurrection. Obviously the ressurrection is the KEY factor in Christianity. Without it, Christianity would not be alive today.

Here is a basic summary of the resurrection.
Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish prophet who claimed to be the Christ prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures, was arrested, was judged a political criminal, and was crucified. According to the four Gospels, three days after His death and burial, some women who went to His tomb and found His body to be gone. In the weeks that followed, His disciples claimed that God had raised Him from the dead and that He appeared to them various times before ascending into heaven.

First, is the New Testament reliable? This is one of the most asked questions by atheists. Since the New Testament is the main source for information on the resurrection, many critics back in the 1900's questioned the reliability of the New Testament. However, by the end of the 19th century, discoveries of early papyri confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Today, over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence.

Second, there are accounts of over thirteen different appearances of Christ AFTER the crucifixion. Paul the Apostle wrote that Jesus appeared in front of 500 people one time, most of who were alive and could confirm Paul’s claim at the time he wrote his claim.

Third, both Jewish and Roman sources confirmed that the tomb was indeed empty three days after Jesus died on the cross. Those resources range from Josephus to a compilation of fifth-century Jewish writings called the "Toledoth Jeshu."

Fourth, certainly the fact that Jesus died on the cross is central to Christian belief. Why should we believe that Jesus did not get off of that cross alive? About 15 years ago an article was published in “The Journal of American Medical Association” where three scholars basically wrote Jesus’ death certificate. Here are two of the things that they found. Number one, we read that death by crucifixion is essentially death by asphyxiation. A centurion of the first century didn’t have to have medical degree in order to do his job. All that he would have needed to know was how to suspend a person up in the air with their arms stretched. This is because when you are hanging with your arms stretched, especially the closer your arms are to your head, the weight of your body pulls down on your intercostal, pectoral, and deltoid muscles preventing your body from exhaling. In short, you are unable to breath. So a person who is hanging low on a cross without being able to push himself up to breathe would simply be unable to fake anything. They would simply die. That is the first piece of evidence that suggests that Jesus did in fact die on the cross. Number two, we are told in John 19:34 that one of the Roman soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear. They did not break his ankles like they did to the other two men hanging on either side of Jesus because they could already see that He was, in fact, dead since He was hanging so low on the cross. So, instead, they stabbed Him in the chest with a spear, and we read that blood and water came out of the wound. Around the heart there is a sack called the pericardium that holds a thin, watery serum. The scholars and this journal article concluded that the spear would have had to have gone through Jesus’ heart, and here is the reason. Because water was expelled from the wound, we know that the pericardium was punctured, but the spear tip could not have stayed in the pericardium because that sack is so incredible thin. So we have a witness here who basically confirms that Jesus was stabbed through the heart, and the article basically says this: He was already dead when the spear entered his chest, but even if he wasn’t, then the spear would have killed him.

In summary, I feel that this proves that Jesus died on the cross, and three days later rose from the dead and appeared to crowds of people. Again, please feel free to debate.

[–] ShadowsouL 19 years ago

"Obviously the ressurrection is the KEY factor in Christianity."

Belief in the resurrection is the key factor in Christianity.

"Here is a basic summary of the resurrection."

This is a basic summary of claims of the resurrection.

"However, by the end of the 19th century, discoveries of early papyri confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts."

The discoveries of early papyri confirmed that the New Testament manuscripts were indeed written and faithfully copied.

"Today, over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence."

Today, millions of copies of Jurassic Park are known to be in existence.

"Second, there are accounts of over thirteen different appearances of Christ AFTER the crucifixion."

There are hundreds of thousands of individual accounts of appearances of angels, demons, UFOs, alien abductors, Bigfoot, and Elvis.

"Paul the Apostle wrote that Jesus appeared in front of 500 people one time, most of who were alive and could confirm Paul’s claim at the time he wrote his claim."

In our lifetime, as many people at any one time over the years have reported mass sightings of apparitions, such as Jesus' mother Mary.

"Third, both Jewish and Roman sources confirmed that the tomb was indeed empty three days after Jesus died on the cross."

This confirms that the tomb was empty three days after Jesus died on the cross.

"So a person who is hanging low on a cross without being able to push himself up to breathe would simply be unable to fake anything. They would simply die. That is the first piece of evidence that suggests that Jesus did in fact die on the cross."

This is evidence that a person who is hanging low on a cross without being able to push himself up to breathe would die.

"In summary, I feel that this proves that Jesus died on the cross,"

This proves that anyone who was subjected to this treatment died on the cross.

"and three days later rose from the dead and appeared to crowds of people."

So they say.

"They call me Peoples, because I am for the peoples."--Peoples Hernandez, Shaft 2000

[–] Crisis892000 19 years ago

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I have been out of town for the past 3 days. But finally, I'm back and here is what I have to say. I will comment on shadowsoul's reply to my post step by step.

I'm not going to comment on the first two, as they have nothing to do with evidence, you just rewording my phrases. Those first two statements just imply that not everyone believes in Christianity, which I think is safe to say that everyone here knows that.

However, by the end of the 19th century, discoveries of early papyri confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts."

The discoveries of early papyri confirmed that the New Testament manuscripts were indeed written and faithfully copied.

Glad to see that you agree with me.

"Today, over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence."

Today, millions of copies of Jurassic Park are known to be in existence.

One of the first attacks by atheists and other people against Christianity is the reliability of the New Testament printed TODAY. One of the first examples that people will bring up is the telephone game. The point of my first statement was to exhibit evidence against those claims. Also, Jurassic Park has been around for only eleven or twelve years. The New Testament manuscripts that I was talking about are almost 2000 years old, and they were copied BY HAND for the last 2 millennium. I think that comparing Jurassic Park to the Bible is very unfair because we are talking about two VERY different circumstances.

"Second, there are accounts of over thirteen different appearances of Christ AFTER the crucifixion."

There are hundreds of thousands of individual accounts of appearances of angels, demons, UFOs, alien abductors, Bigfoot, and Elvis.

"Paul the Apostle wrote that Jesus appeared in front of 500 people one time, most of who were alive and could confirm Paul’s claim at the time he wrote his claim."

In our lifetime, as many people at any one time over the years have reported mass sightings of apparitions, such as Jesus' mother Mary.

I will comment on both of these statements at the same time. I would like to take note of one particular word you used: apparitions. One of the definitions of apparitions is "A ghostly figure." I assume that that as the definition you were implying when using the word. When Jesus appeared to people, it wasn't as a ghost. It wasn't as some sort of shadow, and it wasn't for only a brief moment. He came back in His earthly body for forty days! People went up and talked to Him. They carried on conversations with Him. They touched Him. They stayed with Him for hours at a time, some probably even longer. He stood up in front of 500 people at one time. How many people today claim to have stayed and talked to Elvis, or Bigfoot, or UFO's, especially for this long a period of time and in this large a number of people?

"Third, both Jewish and Roman sources confirmed that the tomb was indeed empty three days after Jesus died on the cross."

This confirms that the tomb was empty three days after Jesus died on the cross.

I'm sorry, were you trying to be sarcastic there or were you agreeing with me? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

"So a person who is hanging low on a cross without being able to push himself up to breathe would simply be unable to fake anything. They would simply die. That is the first piece of evidence that suggests that Jesus did in fact die on the cross."

This is evidence that a person who is hanging low on a cross without being able to push himself up to breathe would die.

And trust me, centurions knew what they were doing, and for a while Jesus could hold Himself up, but as in most crucifixions, He lost strength to do that after a period of time. Also, did you not read my statement about the spear? You left that out completely. I would like to hear your comments on that. As for the above statement, I will say again: He was already dead when the spear entered his chest, but if he wasn't, then the spear would have killed him.

"In summary, I feel that this proves that Jesus died on the cross,"

This proves that anyone who was subjected to this treatment died on the cross.

Which is a crucial factor.

"and three days later rose from the dead and appeared to crowds of people."

So they say.

Look at the accounts of sightings after the resurrection and the fact that the tomb was empty.

And mewesley-imdbpost, read my first post. Even if He hadn’t have died because of the cross, then the spear would have killed Him.

[–] mewesley-imdbpost 19 years ago

What about the belief that Jesus did not die on the cross? Rather Jesus lived through the crucifixition, appeared to the people alive afterwards, but was taken to Heaven alive, an even more wonderous miracle? Those who believe in this, Muslims, do also believe in Revelations, the Day of Reckoning. Jesus will come back to us from the heavens, alive, with all the other prophets and lead the faithful.

[–] 19 years ago

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