MovieChat Forums > Empire (2005) Discussion > Vestal VIRGIN romance is lunacy!!!!

Vestal VIRGIN romance is lunacy!!!!

posted 19 years ago by Ricimer
19 replies | jump to latest

I am minoring in Roman Civilization and I feel I must point out that the character "Camane" is so offensive to what Roman history actually was it defies all logic:

The 6 Vestals (Priestesses of the goddess Vesta) were the Vestal VIRGINS; they swore an oath of chastity.

The Romans were one of the most superstitious peoples ever: they seriously believed that even the hint of a romantic relationship with a Vestal Virgin (breaking her holy vows) would invite destruction upon the city by the Gods. They literally thought these things would happen.

They believed this to the point that a romantic relationship with a Vestal virgin was seen as an attack on the safety of the states itself.

What's more, if a Vestal virgin was accused of breaking her chastity vows, even without proof, the Vestal would be dragged into a nearby cave, then the openning would be permanently sealed, killing her. They didn't have due process or evidence for this either.

I've only seen the premiere at this point, but there are two things we must keep in mind:

1) If Octavian ever actually kisses "Camane", this show says goodbye to the last shred of credibility or believibility for that matter it might have (Octavian would no more consider having a romance with a Vestal virgin than a US president would consider test blasting nuclear weapons on a major US city).

2) I've checked the credits, and there is no mention of Livia. *Livia was Octavian's future wife*.

****What's funny is that the REAL HISTORY would actually have made good drama: Livia was Octavian's second wife; he had married someone else first to form a political marriage alliance but he then had a divorce. Octavian, most historians believe, truly married Livia for love and stayed with her for life. Problem was, when they first met SHE WAS ALREADY MARRIED.

Similar to the King David/Bethsheba incident, we know that Octavian ordered her husband (a military commander) on a dangerous mission on which he died. Octivian then married Livia.

That's not the best part.

Livia already had a 10 year old son by her husband, named Tiberius. Howevever, Livia reportedly was *"already pregnant" with another son when her husband died*, that Octavian raised as his own, named Drusus.

Drusus was always treated as the favorite by Octavian, even though Tiberius was much older (Octavian never had a son of his own, and only had one daughter later with Livia).

For years this is held as fact, but recent shocking (and highly debatable at the moment) genetic analysis has suggested that there is good evidence taht Octavian *WAS* Drusus' biological father--> both Octavian and Drusus' grandson Caligula had Wilson's disease, an autosomal recessive genetic disorder.

Indeed, Drusus was always primed as the successor but he died young in an accident and Octavian begrudgingly made Tiberius his successor as emperor.

The true story would have made great drama.

More to follow.

[–] Dealan_de 19 years ago

Thank you for making the comment about a Vestal Virgin romance being ridiculous. I'm not a scholar (just someone who likes to gobble up any info I can get my hands on about ancient Rome) but I almost hit the roof when this miniseries showed Octavian flirting with Camane in the beginning. I was under the impression there were very few Vestals who broke their vows throughout history, because the punishment was so severe, as you said, and they were such a revered part of Roman society that most men wouldn't have dared to try anything. In regards to Livia, though that would make a very interesting story to see, I was under the impression that this series was not going to go that far into Octavian's life, only until he has secured his right to rule.

"I'd kick him out of bed for eatin' crackers just to watch him crawl back in naked!"

[–] kcm25 19 years ago

And yet weren't there numerous pregnacies amongst the Vestrals? All suspected that the lead of the order (Brutus' character?) were behind the pregnacies but were covered up or claims that the God (Jupiter) were responsible for the virgin pregnacies, which some historians believe that was where the bible writers got the idea regarding Jesus's heritage.

[–] 141-OKG 19 years ago

What's more interesting: a character who is a virgin (& must remain a virgin) entering into a forbidden romance, or a character that is not a virging doing something that nobody cares about? Tension & conflict = drama. I like the narrator character, and I doubt their "relationship" is anything more than teasing the viewer, but who knows?

Most of what you mentioned is covered in the "I, Claudius" Book & Movie, which is Excellent, and probably closer to the "truth."

"Empire" is a slightly modern take on antiquity, but until they have spaceships and dinosaurs enter the scene, I am hooked.

Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away.
Philip K. Dick, VALIS

[–] mylesrg 19 years ago

Agreed. Am enjoying the series so far. Good drama - and you really feel the skullduggery going on in ancient Rome when you always HAD to watch your back.

Like you, 141-OKG, I, too, am hooked.

[–] lolu93 19 years ago

NO, your skepticism is lunacy! A man as powerful, wealthy, and charming as Octavius putting the moves on a Vestal Virgin is GREAT STORY. It was the choice of writers and directors to show us how Octavius was a player, in a degree powerful enough to enchant a Vestal Virgin! Also, his flirting with Camane shows that Octavius would dare to break the rules. All this is, is a smart display of background on an arrogant, daring character, in a well-made show.

[–] hobbit720 19 years ago

Although you may have a very....uh....abrasive way of getting your point across Lolu93, you do have a point. Empire was put together to entertain. It is just a mini-series made to entertain the public like any tv show or movie would. Arguing and complaining about all the little inaccuracies and false facts is rather mute in this context. It would be different if they made this mini-series as a real historical biography of what really happened, but this is not the case. It's just a fun fictional story where the facts are purposefully twisted, and meant solely for our entertainment. Just enjoy it.

[–] somedumbnoob 19 years ago

Its more like a one way romance so far, Octavius already was in bed with like 4 other women after he ran away from Rome. I doubt he was thinking too much of her

[–] Ricimer 19 years ago

You seriously think this show is entertaining? I just watch it to laugh at how bad it is. IGNORING THE FACT THAT IT HAS NO MORE HISTORICAL ACCURACY THAN THE MARTIN LAWRENCE FILM "BLACK KNIGHT", it's simply bad tv. It's not entertaining, the characters are poorly drawn, the dialogue silly, etc.

Some producer just wanted to rip off the movie Gladiator (which was itself fictitious) and make a miniseries about Roman gladiators. However, had they wanted to do that they should have remade "Spartacus" which was about the gladiator revolt led by Spartacus. It's silly that it's a show about Octavian/Augustus, and instead every 5 minutes they insert that gladiator guy for no reason. Even if I weren't concerned with historical accuracy, it's just a trashy story.

******No, there weren't pregnancies among the Vestal Virgins. The one or two instances you may be referring to are exceptions.

REMEMBER: The childbirth mortality rate for women was around 50% during this period. They had no idea about sanitation or anything (not washing dirt off their hands before delivering the child, etc) so infection became common as a result and many women died this way.

Being a Vestal Virgin was seen as a great opportunity to NOT have to have a husband and get pregnant (and possibly die) all the time. Plus, Vestal Virgins were pretty much the ONLY successful unmarried women in the city. Many, after they RETIRED, were free to marry but also free not to, and chose NOT to because this was pretty much the only situation where you could legally remain single.

[–] lolu93 19 years ago

No ricimer, that's foolish. Why is it that a movie is made six years ago about Ancient Rome and now any other project about Ancient Rome is considered a rip off. That's ridiuculous! How many movies have been made about prison, or doctors, or presidents, or ALIENS. One would not and could not say that CSI is a rip off of Dirty Harry. Yes, they both happen to be about cops, but they don't quite tell the same story. Also, the "gladiator guy", Tyranus is not in it for no reason. He happens to be the star of the show. The show was going to be called Tyrannus. Octavius is not the main star, he is just a co-star. So don't talk like you know what you are saying.

"These pretzels are makin' me thirsty!"

[–] Ricimer 19 years ago

I know so much about Rome because I am minoring in Roman Civilization.

And you logic doesn't hold up: Gladiator was an Oscar winning film, so 5-6 years isn't a very long time for people to "forget" it.

Again, You're seriously entertained by this?

Not that the acting is all too bad, the actors give their lines well, but the script is terrible. Tyrannus is a boring character and Cassius could have been so much more.

[–] knoetzelman 19 years ago

Just a *minor* suggestion, if the show displeases you soooooooo much, and causes you no end of upset then why not just turn the channel and be done with it? I doubt that abc will honestly be offended if you quite watching what you consider an offense to Roman history.

Also, if you're so interested in Roman history one might suggest you picking up a book, turning off the tv and computer and enjoying yourself rather than bicker with strangers, or waste your time on a show you don't enjoy, I find there are much more amusing ways of wasting time. Such as picking lint of my pillowcases, staring at the walls, counting the marks on the ceiling. These are much more amusing pasttimes and not quite as upsetting as this show seems to make you.

[–] euphoricxtragedy 19 years ago

Actually, there has already been a recent enough remake of Spartacus: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361240/.

How do you know so much about Rome? *Curious*.

I agree it is trashy, but I prefer this trash to other plain modern comedy trash.

[–] hobbit720 19 years ago

Look Ricimer, for some people (myself included) we find this show entertaining. Not everyone likes the same movies or tv shows or music or sports or whatever. Everyone has different tastes. So if we wanna watch it and if we like it then that's our choice.

[–] kcm25 19 years ago

More like 3 women, not that I'm jealous or anything.

[–] GaelinW 19 years ago

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned. But to the original poster (Ricimer?), I'm not sure who's teaching you Roman history, but you are wrong.

Livia's husband was not sent on a mission and died. He graciously divorced Livia. After she gave birth to Drusus, the child was sent to his father to be raised. At the age of 5 his father died. It was then that he returned to his mother and was raised by Augustus. (Yes, I do know of the theory that August was Drusus's father. But that's not really relevant to this discussion.)

This husband, Tiberius Claudius Nero, died in 33BC. Livia and Octavius were married in 38BC. There are 5 years unaccounted for in YOUR story of Augustus sending the husband on a suicide mission.

Also, Tiberius was born in 42BC, he wasn't 10 years old when his parents divorced and his mother remarried. It was more like 6-7.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that the truth is just as entertaining. But really, who cares. It a TV mini series not a documentary.

And if you're going to nitpick the inaccuracies, your nitpicks should be accurate.

[–] chizzie_shark 18 years ago

interesting. if this thread weren't dead i'd say another imdb historical storm was brewing.

*********
Tell them the horizon is an imaginary line that recedes as you approach it.

[–] abarbuio 18 years ago

i agree with 'GaelinW'

although i think the thread is getting a little off the point.

its really impossible to include livia, not only because it is aimed at octavius's rise out of exile, but it would stretch theplot of the story and cause a distancing of the characters from the audience. this often comes out in the complaint that certain movies are 'too long' or have 'too much dialouge'. "Alexander" suffered from this and this is why the story takes many variants from history. its also important to remember that as much as we think we know about how it happened, we wernt there so we can never be one hundred percent sure of all the facts. this series plays on this, hence the wide angle shots in octavius's exile that shows their ability to avoid history.

essentially to be accurate to what we know as history there would have to be much more quick cuts between scenes that would have to quickly establish political nuances, like brutus's death octavius's previous friendship with agrippa, in order to completly be accurate. this would create that same void of emotion and take focus away from the story this mini series tells. hence the writers revamped history to create a much more personel story for octavius and not fall into the same trap as 'alexander'.

[–] sebrat 18 years ago

Ricimer, you are obviously very proud of the fact that you are minoring in Roman Civilization. Well done. However I, as a 15 year old Latin student, can correct you. The romance is implausible, yes, but not impossible. There were 22 recorded incidents of vestal virgins breaking their vows - obviously romances such as this did occur. It is not historically inaccurate. The fact that the penalty for such a romance was death makes it even more exciting for the producers of this terrible show.

And the reason Livia is not mentioned in the credits is because she did not appear in Octavian's life until after he had divorced his first wife, who you forget to mention, named Scribonia. This happened in 34BC, when Octavian would have been in his late twenties. Presumably the miniseries does not go that far into his life. It must not even go up until 40BC, when he married Scribonia at 23.

And most of the story you related IS already a great drama, "I Claudius", which makes "Empire" even more apparent as the overblown, cheesy, poorly scripted big budget pile of crap that it is.

[–] RAMLia08 14 years ago

There has been some speculation about the paternity of Drusus, some suggesting that he was Augustus' biological son. However this idea is widely discredited by modern historians as Augustus never acknowledged Drusus as his son, nor did he make any attempt to adopt him. Augustus' only biological child was Julia the Elder, his daughter by Scribonia. She gave birth to the five grandchildren (Gaius Caesar, Lucius Caesar, Agrippa Postumus, Agrippina the Elder, and Julia the Younger), whom he adopted as his heirs. After the deaths of 2 of his grandsons by Julia, and the banishment of the third, Augustus never moved to adopt Drusus' sons, Germanicus and Claudius. Augustus chose the much older Tiberius, who was definitely not related by blood, as sole heir and invested him with the powers of principate. Augustus seems to have had Tiberius adopt Germanicus as heir because of the latter's marriage to his granddaughter Agrippina (the last of Augustus' living grandchildren not in disgrace), and not because of any secret blood relationship.

Another reason the theory is unlikely is because Augustus and Livia were married for 51 years and never had children after their marriage. It may have been that Augustus and Livia were incapable of having their own children together despite the fact they had both successfully had children with other people (Augustus had Julia with Scribonia and Livia had Tiberius and Drusus with their father.) Finally, Augustus didn't know Livia at the time that Drusus would have been conceived,[dubious – discuss] meaning he couldn't have begotten a child by her.