MovieChat Forums > Island at War (2005) Discussion > Would we all have ended up being Nazi 's...

Would we all have ended up being Nazi 'sympathisers'?

posted 10 years ago by GilesEnsor
5 replies | jump to latest

What is interesting about the invasion of the Channel Islands is that it brings up disturbing thoughts.

When the Germans invaded the Channel Islands there was almost no resistance. While it is understandable, considering the complete lack of British military, there was almost no resistance during the occupation as well.

The disturbing thought is, if Hitler hadn't been such an appalling tactician and had invaded Britain after almost the entire British army had been captured, would the British have done what Churchill famously claimed we would have done...

"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender..."

...or would we all have done what the Channel Islanders did? After all, it's easy to brave 60 years later.

As a patriotic Brit, I would like to think we would have, but would we?

[–] genevieve_autumn-875-44531 10 years ago

I think the Channel Islands were the exception to the rule because they are isolated and even though its closer to France, its under English rule but I feel the people are caught in the middle.

However, when you look at the Battle of Cable street where baker, butcher, Jew and Christian etc came and stood against the Fascist Mosley who hoped to be the English Hitler and we won in defeating them, I think we would have done the same to the germans. Despite the police officers even attacking the rioters as well people did not give in, I know this as I had family members who were there and they helped a Jewish boy back home after they found him with a head wound after being attacked by a police officer, so many people stood bravely and fought for what they believed in, I consider that brave and I am proud we didn't let the fascist win, so no although some would have done what the Channel Islands did most people would have stood up to the Germans.

[–] GilesEnsor 10 years ago

Hi Genevieve Autumn (is that your real name? If it is, it's absolutely wonderful).

You make a valid point but, yes there is a 'but' here, the Battle of Cable Street was a demonstration fight, in the same way that the Poll Tax Riots of the 80s were demonstration fights. While not minimising the fights themselves, there was no government retaliation, no 'you killed one of ours, we'll murder 100 of yours', no death camps, or concentration camps.

Also, you bring up the British Fascist Party, who would have been sympathisers of the most rotten sort. What happened to Anne Frank in Amsterdam would have happened in Britain as well, but on a much larger scale. Not just Jews, of course, but also gays, minorities, gypsies, the mentally and physically handicapped, muslims (the Grand Mufti would have had a grand shock if his help had actually bought about a nazi victory).

My mother was brought up a Christian even though her father was a Jew (partly because my grandmother never converted). I always believed that this was because of my grandparents' fears of a nazi invasion; hoping that my mother would not have been rounded up with the rest of them. Although, in later years it was found out from papers about a British invasion, captured from the nazis, that it wouldn't have mattered. However, the point I'm making is my grandfather had little faith that his daughter would have been protected by the British if there had been an invasion, not because he thought his fellow Brits wouldn't have had the courage but because they wouldn't have had any choice.

Mind you, I agree that some (if not many) Brits would have stood up and fought. They were a courageous people who would have tried to do the right thing. Sadly, I don't think the same could be said of Brits 75 years on.

Peace and Love

Giles

[–] genevieve_autumn-875-44531 10 years ago

Hi and thank you, that is my first and middle name.
I realised after reading your reply, I had not consider the politicians actions because the working class people involved in Cable Street were ordinary people and politicians are not, whose actions would not be genuine but politically motivated.

Looking at Cable Street, it resulted in the Public Order act where no political party could hold a rally/march without the authority of the Police, they could not organise events which could be deemed against the Crown and Parliament or wear their political clothes in public.

They created this law quickly after the event, in 1936, because they didn’t want a repeat of the violence and chaos on the streets however this law meant BUF (British union of fascists) could present themselves now as civil because they no longer could carry out their armed or political acts but just hold meetings etc, which attracted the middle class in being fooled that the BUF were law abiding and respectful. Cable Street also attracted a lot of publicity, which resulted in some anti-Semitism coming out stronger, for those who blamed the Jewish population for the violence but also people went to rallies to discover what the BUF was about.

Looking at all of this and applying it to what we are discussing, I believe if the Nazis invaded there would be civil wars on the streets between those who were against their fascist ways and those who were for it, I believe those who were against would have more supporters not because they were against the German’s fascist thoughts and politics but simply because they were the enemy and many believed you thought to end and never surrendered.

The Germans would however have support from some members of the public, who believed the cowardly action of the better the devil you know and that if they tried to work with the Germans rather then fight them, in surrender, the Germans would be less harsh and more forgiven.

In the case of the politicians, they would act this way to keep their power of position and the Germans would let them be fooled, the politicians realising that they were puppets on string.

So they would agree to some of the Germans terms for the new laws whilst against others and as we know from Hitler’s rise to power, all it takes is for him to get his foot in the door and then slowly, slowly he gains more power.
I can see the streets being like France during the revolution or Poland during the end of the war, with buildings destroyed by the tanks because they were used as places to hide or fight for the resistance.

There would be many deaths, look at France and how badly the people suffered because so many tried to resist, its understandable why they hated the Germans at the end of the war as they were left with a terrible wound from all the memories. The Germans were vicious in their attempts to put down the resistance.

I know from family experience when my grandfather’s plane was shot down over France, he was a navigator and as the other crew members left, he stayed on board to help the pilot land the plane and although he did, the sheer force as it landed caused their necks to break. The resistance came along and helped those who were alive away and they carried my grandfather’s brother’s body and the pilot away. They did this as at time they believed the Germans would pretend the dead person was alive and use them as a hostage against the British government and also write letters to the family of the person to torture them mentally etc, that last one I think is more propaganda. So the resistance set the plane on fire but it did not fool the Germans who were not far behind, as when they arrived on the scene they knew the bodies had not perished in the fire because it was too soon for there to be no trace and the bodies should have still been visible. They rounded up most of the men in the village and demanded they inform them of where the men were or they would be shot. In the face of death, they did not give in and bravely they stood their grounds, about 2/3 of the men were killed.

I tell this story as this was France, which borders Germany and so they were at a weaker position then us in defence and had faced many troubles/war with Germany in the past, so you could understand if they were exhausted and ready to stop fighting but they never did. And so I believe Britain would have been the same, which is why again I say there would have been many deaths and would have left Britain devastated. I can not say what the outcome would be or how long the fighting would go on for.

I know some say we only really won the battle of Britain because Hitler called back his air force to Russia, they are not saying our men did not put up a brave and good fight but the Germans were close to winning and it was only through Hitler believing the fight in Russia was more important that they did not win. Some people sadly at the time, like one story I hear about a mother and her son, committed suicide as they believed the Germans were about to win. I believe many of the deaths would have been like this as well.

The Germans plan, had they won their invasion, would have been to destroy the RAF and so again, most of the resistance would be on the ground because you can’t keep a plane hidden for long! So that would also result in maybe long drawn out small victories, with the Germans having stronger weapons to use against the resistance, such as their own air force and again as I said would lead to the destructions of cities and the buildings in them.

We would have to wait until Russia had won its war then slowly spread further, gaining support from countries such as China and Australia, if the Japanese had not defeated them, maybe nuclear bombs would have been in other countries. Remember when the one in Hiroshima was dropped, we had already defeated the Germans but in our other reality, the Germans have defeated Britain and maybe the Germans would have responded with nuclear bombs of their own or not if they were not ready. So the war would have been much worse had they defeated Britain.

Just like people will debate forever whether the use of the nuclear bomb over Hiroshima was the right thing to do, so will be this debate over what Britain would be like if the Germans had won. I would only hope with my great grandmother being German that would have worked in my favour with the Germans and my family would be safe resulting in me eventually being born lol though I doubt it as on my mother’s side there is some Romany blood so I probably would not have made it. And with the amount of Germans my great grandfather (her husband) killed in both wars (especially POW’s in revenge for his sons death-the navigator-which I am against) he would have been punished by the Germans but he would have fought to the end against the Germans, especially with my family’s attitude to stand against fascists and that I have so many different bloodlines as my family don’t believe in one pure race but love being colour/country blind. At least my grandfather could tell the Germans in their own language where they could stick it lol, he did hope to be a spy with his blonde hair and able to speak German but instead for health reasons he had to be a medic, so I would like to think had Germany invaded he would finally have got his chance and spied for the resistance! lol.

On a final note, it’s a really difficult subject to reach an answer on as its all speculative and you want to believe you live in a country that would fight fascism but that would not be admitting to reality.

I like to believe that we showed more humanity as a people, as a country and as a government and so we would have fought to the bitter end.

We are the land of King Harold 2nd, Boudicca, Queen Elizabeth 1, Oliver Cromwell, Admiral Lord Nelson, Duke of Wellington, Queen Victoria, Churchill, Margaret Thatcher (not a popular lady but I wouldn’t want to get into a fight with her after telling her ‘no’), I mention these people because they were fighters and as Nelson said

"England expects that every man will do his duty."

He was the first to use the term

“band of brothers”

and from the people I’ve shown, England is full of leaders who fought for what they believed in and we would band together as brothers and sisters (to be pc lol), from the days of the Celts, Viking, Saxon invasions etc to the civil war during Charles 1 reign, the Anglo-Spanish war during Elizabeth’s I reign and the battle of Trafalgar and waterloo etc to the day the Germans invaded we’re a nation of fighters and victories so they would be starting a fight with a strong nation who would sing “Rule Britannia!!...BRITONS NEVER WILL BE SLAVE” as their battle cry to scare the Germans and make them quiver with fear as they realise they are about to fight a nation like no other and a fight like any they had ever met!!!!

Forget Russia, that would be nothing in comparison against us united and brave Brits!!!

Lol, getting carried away in my patriotic dreams but I believe in it and that’s why I am proud of my country and to be British.
As Churchill said it himself:

‘victory, however long and hard the road may be’

‘We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.’

[–] grumpyoldguy1 9 years ago

I believe William Shakespeare, not Nelson, was the first to use the term, "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers".

[–] genevieve_autumn-875-44531 10 years ago

Also I agree about your last comment, I see youtube videos of people who stand up against those in the wrong, 'have a go hero's as you call them but I doubt we would be as united as a group. When you look at the recent riots a couple of years ago, it made me ashamed as many were youths and middle age people using it as a excuse to commit many offences like theft and a lot of the shops targeted were ones working class families had built up themselves and would suffer financially as unlike commercial businesses, insurance would not cover their loss.
I see those who still stand up to parties like BNP but I also saw that they won a seat for a while in Europe elections, which made me fear history was repeating it self and like with Hitler, people were turning to BNP and English Defence League as a quick solution to their anger at the politicians of the time and because they were blinded with empty promises and answers. Although I hope with BNP now having lost their seat and UKIP instead the protest party, there is still hope.
But I also see in the news that once when it was the people from the Caribbean etc who faced prejudice in the 70's, there is not rivalry and anger from the settled ethnicities to the new ones coming into our country, with some city dominated by that one group of people, that leaves others with fear to enter it if they do not fit in (I'm talking about some very rough areas of Birmingham). Although we are united mostly, us Britons, I see a lot of unrest and anger and so I do not believe we are as united as much as we could be.
We pull together like when the terrorist attacks happen but it shouldn't be when its the most severe incident, too many people turn a blind eye at the small crimes being committed and we as a nation should stand together more to fight against inhumanity, so there's a lot of issues that weren't around back then and these factors would effect the kind of fight you would see today and just who would be on who's side. Sadly it would be very different but at the heart of it, the heart of British humanity and courage would be there amongst the chaos but I am a optimist. :)

And to finish off you end note, as someone once said to me, peace, love and jelly babies!