I pitied Hatsumomo.


Yes, she was mean, yes she was hot tempered but I pitied her. She likely didnt choose to be a geisha and was striking out at the hand fate had dealt her. Never able to be with the person of her choice. Never able to do and feel like her choices and wants mattered.

And then, after the incident with the okiya(dont wanna spoil it) and that shot of her walking away, wow.
Renee
Lestatic #15
My very randomness astounds people!

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If you read the book you never can pity her,she is the evel.

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I have read the book. And book version, yes, I did not feel sorry for her. Movie version, I did. In her rant at Mother when she's saying"who paid for the rice in your bowl, the silk on your back." That got me. Because it's true. Hatsumomo did. She probably never saw a dime, at least, not enough to earn her independence. It all went to Mother to pay her debts. She never even kept a danna long because of her temper but who could blame her?

Renee
Lestatic #15
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How did she react in the book? I dont' remember.

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In the book Hatsumomo is a lot more manipulative and crafty, and certainly wouldn't lash out at Mother like that.

The film made her look more like a drunk slob with her hair always hanging down and her drowsy eyes.

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"who paid for the rice in your bowl, the silk on your back."


I just recently watched the film and it's been years since i read the book, but i don't believe the economics of the situation work out that way. For instance if i recall, Sayuri essentially paid off her debt to the Okiya (Her home as a Geisha) that paid for her training as a Geisha and her upbringing (clothes, food, medical) in the selling of her virginity (mizuage). After which, it is likely that she would then pay for lodgings and services at the Okiya for simplicity of it being 'home' and 'family. That was if she hadn't already been made daughter and heir.

It's entirely possible that Hatsumomo was likely still paying of her 'debt' to the Okiya, as well as for her keeping in her work as a Geisha at the time. While it's possible that Hatsumomo was likely their primary source of income through which that cared for themselves and kept the Okiya running they no doubt had other sources....

It would likely have been very trying to to be a Geisha without what is effectively an agency and agent (the Okiya and Mother) to manage your bookings, organise services like hair and makeup. It probably wouldn't have been seen as respectable for a Geisha to not have an Okiya through which she could be contacted (given that most if not all Geisha are raised if not 'belonging' to the Okiya at the time), unless she was a woman of means that had a 'dana' (a boyfriend you exclusively had sex with) - and thus was basically a kept mistress that still entertained (like paid entertainment) at her leisure.

But i'm pulling alot of this educated guess out my butt. I might have to go look this up.

EDIT: Was just reading up on Okiyas:

When the young woman moves into the okiya as a resident, she can be legally adopted as the okā-san's atotori (heiress), and she becomes her adoptive daughter from then on. As the atotori, she will live in the okiya permanently, all of her debts will be absorbed by the house, and her income will directly fund the household and all of its workers, this is seen as a great honor. When the okāsan dies, she will fully inherit the Okiya and become the new mother or successor.

Another source says all of the Heirs income will go to the Okiya. So really, since nice gentle Sayuri had settled her debt to the Okiya, it made real financial sense to adopt her (thus the rest of the money from her Mizuage would also go to the Okiya), as she was on he rise to be a supreme Geisha, and all her money would go on to support the house, who would not only support her, but that she would then inherit. It would not suprirse me if as a daughter in the Okiya she was allowed a stipend for personal purchases even.

Pumpkin at the time was IIRC not even a full Geisha - had not sold her Mizuage, had not paid of her debt to the Okiya, and was likly an average training Geishas, with averga earnings at best.

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Yeah, I pitied her too. Her life was not that of a queen, but of a slave. To be honest, I really like cold, bitter, tragic characters like her. She wasn't some alpha girl in highschool trying to ruin the prom for her competition. She was a character with history, baggage, ambitions, and fears. She was still able to love too which added some humanity.

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Even her actions towards Sayuri in the book are understandable. She's probably afraid that if Pumpkin isnt the daughter of the okiya, she's out on her butt. She, like Pumpkin, want security. But her very nature is against it and she sabotages herself.

Renee
Lestatic #15
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I agree.

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She was a train wreck. I wish there had been a scene that explained why but then that would have humanized her or made her sympathetic and I don't think she was intended to be. There are men who re jerks and women who are shrews for no reason at all.They are just born that way.
I kept getting a lesbian vibe from her but that was never pursued in the film and I did not read the novel.

"I say,open this door at once! We're British !"

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I wish there had been a scene that explained why but then that would have humanized her or made her sympathetic and I don't think she was intended to be.

I don't think the idea was to actively make her a villainous villain. The story is just told from Sayuri's point of view and she probably would never have known anything pertaining to Hatsumomo's past that could have made her so cruel.

I kept getting a lesbian vibe from her but that was never pursued in the film and I did not read the novel.

LOL because she's bitter and angry, she's a lesbian? Obviously she's not a lesbian since she has a lover and sees him in secret, despite what it would do to her career as a geisha.

For every lie I unlearn I learn something new - Ani Difranco

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I haven't read the book but yes, I agree.

It's all about survival and competition. She knew from the minute she saw Chiyo that she would be her competition.

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I like Hatsumono since she seemed like a rather tragic character.

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I like Hatsumono since she seemed like a rather tragic character.

Certainly it's the most interesting acting role in the film...


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Maybe if we had been given an explanation of why she was the way she was, but even the book did not to that. Had she been a good person or even faked it her life would have been very different, but her circumstances were entirely of her own making. If she had been only half-decent Mother would have adopted her long before Sayuri came along and she would have had complete security.

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Read the book, your pity will dry up by the last page. Hatsumomo was very ill tempered and unkind.

Most geisha are not nasty evil creatures. Mameha was kind. Hatsumomo had no excuse.

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Read the book, your pity will dry up by the last page. Hatsumomo was very ill tempered and unkind.

Actually I also felt bad for her in the novel. Nobody is evil, and certainly nobody is born that way. This amount of bitterness, jealousy and hatred is born of a total lack of self-worth, that's something that is beaten into you.

Most geisha are not nasty evil creatures. Mameha was kind. Hatsumomo had no excuse.

But you don't know what was their lives up to the point where they were sold to the houses that made them Geisha. Sayuri had hard working, loving parents who lived a simple life. Her father just couldn't take care of his children after his wife died. Hatsumomo may have been mistreated or even abused.

You can't sit in judgement and just make a blanket statement without knowing all the facts. They are all Geisha, yes, but that doesn't mean they all had the same life.

For every lie I unlearn I learn something new - Ani Difranco

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so did i. 

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She was an evil manipulative disloyal lying sadist and those were only her good qualities I had a tough time feeling sympathy for her just like I don't feel much sympathy for male villains

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