by - abeliever13
The main reason for the decline in women's figure skating (in my opinion) is the removal of the compulsory figures from competition. In the old days, if you couldn't do the figures, most of the time the rest of the things were sloppy. Statistics say that if the figures had not been removed from competition, Kristi Yamaguchi most likely would not have won her gold medal.
Truth is, figures made sure that skaters could keep clean edges and lines. Without the clean lines, skating is quickly becoming a circus. That's not to say that jumps are bad, but rather that programs should be well rounded and well executed.
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Hello abeliever,
Thanks for your reply! Are there currently any skaters who compete today that you think have good edges in spite of the skaters no longer being judged for doing Figures anymore? If so, who are they?
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by - word_girl
I have to take exception to the conclusion the OP drew in his title. As s/he noted, world skating has changed dramatically over the decades. Comparing points in various competitions over 30 or 40 years, when the ground rules for those competitions have changed so dramatically, gives us no supportable conclusions.
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OK fine. Since you want to take exception to my conclusion, then let's just forget about Sonja Henie, the MOST DECORATED Woman EVER in the History of the Sport, who has 41 Total Skating points (when you combine her Scores based upon the World & Olympic Medals she's won).
Lets also forget about Kat Witt & Carol Heiss who are now TIED for 3rd place as the MOST Decorated Women EVER in the History of this Sport.
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REPOSTING INFO from my FIRST MESSAGE which demonstrates this fact:
These Scores are based upon results from 5 yrs ago back in 2001
Gold medal =3 points, silver medal= 2 points, bronze medal =1 point.
http://main.put.com/Skate/sk/wrmed
World medalists except as above COMBINED with Olympic medal points.
Sonja Henie(Norway) 41
Carol Heiss(U.S.A.) 22
Katarina Witt(Germany) 22
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If we leave out the MOST DECORATED EVER TOP skaters from 30 to 40 yrs ago, and we also eliminate Katt Witt (who roughly competed about 20 yrs ago), that still leaves us with Michelle Kwan -- who's now the SECOND MOST Decorated Woman EVER in Skating History. Correct?
So when we compare the LONG LIVED careers of someone like Michelle Kwan & Irina to the SHORT LIVED careers of Tara & Sarah (the 98 & 2002 Oly Champs), once again what I said in the TITLE to this Topic still applies -- even though you've chosen to either skim over the details of this discussion -- or else competely IGNORE the facts of what we've already discussed on this topic.
I'm sorry to have to point out what a FOOLISH Unfounded conclusion you've jumped to, due to the way you apparently haven't read what I've said CLOSELY enough.
But the fact still remains that in comparison to the ACCUMULATED SKATING SCORES of BOTH Michelle Kwan & Irina, these other Oly SHOOTING STARS (Tara & Sarah), who Blaze Across the Olympic Sky, & then Immediately Fade Away Forever -- (when they don't come back to defend their Oly Title again) -- and fail to ACCUMULATE the same number of TOTAL Skating SCORES as Michelle & Irina --, once again proves the Sport is in a Steady State of DECLINE --(even when you take into consideration the fact that all of these more contemporary girls have been judged on the same basis & have NEVER been judged for doing Figures.
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YOU Again:
I don't agree with using points in other competitions to determine Olympic medals, either.
ME:
Nice try, but unfortunately, I'm afraid you're obviously a little late to this topic, and to our other discussion here as well where we've already covered this matter throughly:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0397208/board/flat/37050922?d=37136313#37136313
Since we've already discovered how neither Sasha nor Shizuka seems to have participated in the GP or GPF this year, we've already come to the conclusion this idea wouldn't work -- not unless the scores at the Nationals were used in combination with the Olympic Scores.
But since an injured Michelle didn't skate at either the GP or Nationals this Season, yet was still sent to the Olympic Games, once again you've got the need for something else, which means she'd have needed to perform a SP & LP for the judges at some time -- in order to have qualified to participate in the Games -- where she'd have needed those other Scores in combination with her Oly Scores -- IF we were to use my idea -- as a way to EARN the Oly Medal instead of having skaters keep Winning it for the past 12 years -- as if the Oly Games were a CRAP Game in Vegas.
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YOU Again:
If you want to count points, create a system that tallies points over the years and awards the winning skater.
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My Reply:
I don't need to create a system like this that already EXISTS -- which you'd already KNOW -- IF you'd taken to time to READ the Very FIRST MESSAGE I posted here more CAREFULLY.
For your convience here's what I said again:
Since 1994 Female Olympic Champs have LESS than 1/2 the ACCUMULATED Points that other Olymic Champions have Accumulated Prior to 1994.
A Cumulation of Skating Statistics Proves a Steady DECLINE in Quality in Women Skaters
STATS to prove & back up what I say about Cumulative Skating Scores:
These Scores are based upon results from 5 yrs ago back in 2001
Gold medal =3 points, silver medal= 2 points, bronze medal =1 point.
http://main.put.com/Skate/sk/wrmed
World medalists except as above COMBINED with Olympic medal points.
Sonja Henie(Norway) 41
Michelle Kwan (U.S.A.) 26 *
* Kwan's New Total since her 21 Total in 2001 is about 26 --She Earned Another Bronze Medal in 2002/ Gold in 2003 /Bronze)
Carol Heiss(U.S.A.) 22
Katarina Witt(Germany) 22
Irina Slutskaya (Russia) 16 *
* (Since 2001, Irina Earned additional Worlds & Bronze Medals giving her a NEW TOTAL of at least 16 points now instead of the 12 points listed back in 2001).
Tara Lipinski (U.S.A.) 6 (1 Oly Medal/1 World Medal)
Shizuka Arakawa (not listed) also now has 6 pts
(1 Oly medal/ 1 World Medal)
Sarah Hughes( U.S.A.) 4 (3 pts Oly Medal/ 1 point Bronze World Medal)
Since this list is from 5 yrs ago, or from back in 2001, Sasha's not listed, but she's the current National Champion, has received about 3 National Medals, in addition to her Olympic Silver medal, and several other GRAND PRIX medals.
Other RESULTS:
1968 OLY Champ:
Peggy Fleming (U.S.A.) 13
1976 Oly Champ:
Dorothy Hamill (U.S.A.) 10
1980 Oly Champ:
Anett Poetzsch (Germany) 13
1984 1988 Oly Champ:
Katarina Witt (Germany) 22
1992 Oly Champ:
Kristi Yamaguchi (U.S.A.) 9
1994 Oly Champ:
Oksana Baiul (Ukraine) 6
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Except for the case with Michelle Kwan (who's EARNED 2 Oly medals: SILVER & BRONZE) ,
after 1994, or the past 12 YEARS,
you've got a steady DECLINE in the TOTAL number of Points the FEMALE Olympic Champion now wins
(as opposed to the way the past Olympic Champions would EARN their TOTAL Points over the course of time).
Hence the reason why I say the Women's Competition in the Olympic Games has basically become like winning a Game of Dice in Las Vegas .
Skatabase - Ladies Results from Olympic Games:
http://www.eskatefans.com/skatabase/olympicladies
[ PS: FYI, I've also been watching this Sport for about 3 Times LONGER than anya_angie . She may know alot about the sport in some respects, but due to the fact that she's not been watching it for as long as I have, she may also not know alot of other things about it that I know as well (due to the simple fact that she's not been around here long enough to have seen everything I've seen).
As you can see by clicking onto the link to our other discussion, she also has the same tendency that you do -- to merely SKIM over the details of a message -- and IGNORE what a person has said -- which is why she posted the placement Titles for Arakawa -- AFTER I'd already told her what I was looking for was the SCORES & NOT the Placement Titles!
http://imdb.com/title/tt0397208/board/flat/37050922?d=37136313#37136313
CONCLUSION:
If would help tremendously if you'd BOTH LOOK more Closely at what I've said before you TAKE an UNFOUNDED LEAP at me!
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word_girl
18 years ago
Allow me to modify my remarks. She appears to know a lot more and she's not attempting to shove her opinions down anyone else's throat. Bragging that you've been watching this sport about 3 times LONGER (sic) than anya makes you look like a middle-aged skate stalker, but OK, if that's what you're into.
I'm not sure who, precisely, it would help to LOOK more Closely(sic) at anything? Just FYI, though, your posts are extremely difficult to read. If you want board members to treat your every word as golden, spend them wisely.
You haven't managed to change my mind.
Something has to be done, but nothing too original, because hey, this is Hollywood.
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34567
18 years ago
by - word_girl
Allow me to modify my remarks. She appears to know a lot more and she's not attempting to shove her opinions down anyone else's throat. Bragging that you've been watching this sport about 3 times LONGER (sic) than anya makes you look like a middle-aged skate stalker, but OK, if that's what you're into.
I'm not sure who, precisely, it would help to LOOK more Closely(sic) at anything? Just FYI, though, your posts are extremely difficult to read. If you want board members to treat your every word as golden, spend them wisely.
You haven't managed to change my mind.
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Something has to be done, but nothing too original, because hey, this is Hollywood.
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MY REPLY:
Does the term PROJECTION Ring a Bell? In case you aren't familiar with it, in psychological terms, its basically when someone else accuses another person of doing what they've done themselves.
Your constant attempts to Belittle Me by SHOVING YOUR Opinions down my throat is an example of you accusing ME of Doing what you yourself keep doing to me.
In other words, YOU yourself were the first one to BRAG about how much anya_angie knows about the sport.
I then agreed with you that she IS VERY knowledgeable.
But I also pointed out to you that there were some other things she might not know about as well, such as about the system where the TOTAL POINTS of a skater are ACCUMULATED for each World & Oly Medal a Skater EARNS.
I wasn't BRAGGING. I was merely reminding you -- a VERY RUDE person who ATTACKS me and what I've said in MY TOPIC without taking time to read it CLOSELY enough -- that Anya obviously wasn't AWARE of the TOTAL POINT SYSTEM, or otherwise she would have NEVER asked me what Sport do I know of where they add up the TOTALS for the entire year.
The reason I'm aware of this TOTAL POINT system, whereas she was not, is probably because I've been watching the Sport for a longer period of time than anya.
Instead of BRAGGING the way you were about HOW MUCH she knew, I was simply stating this fact as a way to defend her, and to let you know that she's not to blame for NOT KNOWING EVERYTHING there is to know about the Sport.
If anyone's a STALKER, I also think the rude behavior & lack of manners that you've displayed here towards me illustrates which one of us that label would most apply to.
FYI, here's a Quote from Dr. Deepok Chopra that I think sums up this situation quite nicely:
We are attracted to Those we LOVE, and DISLIKE those in whom we discover TRAITS of Ourselves that we DENY in Ourselves.
Relationship is a TOOL for the EVOLUTION of our Consciousness
Use the MIRROR of Relationship for YOUR Evolution.
I'm also not here to change your mind or the mind of anybody else either. I'm merely here stating what's on MY mind. And IF you don't like it, or my posting STYLE, then this is perfectly fine with me as well, because you certainly have a RIGHT to your Opinion.
But do you really need to be so RUDE to me all the time, or call me names like Stalker when you're obviously the one Stalking ME?
Must you constantly keep ATTACKING Me Personally each time you let me know about the way you feel about my feelings?
I might be middle aged, but from the INFANTILE Tone of your messages one would also assume you must still be someone in kindergarden or nursery school.
At least Anya is someone who has EVOLVED to the point where she's mature enough to admit it when she's made a mistake -- rather than try to attack someone simply because they've pointed out a mistake she's made.
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anya_angie
18 years ago
Thanks 34567 and word girl.
In all honesty I wish we could just get off this subject. You act like Arakawa is a teenage phenom when she is only a year younger than Michelle.
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"When daylight comes, my kiss shall break the silence which makes you mine!" Calef from Turandot
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34567
18 years ago
by - anya_angie
In all honesty I wish we could just get off this subject.
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She challenged me. I took up the challenge & showed her the reason why she was mistaken to have challenged me. So unless she's willing to admit the mistake she's made (which I can't see happening) as far as I'm concerned we're done now.
IF they ever come back again, & this goofy word girl hasn't frightened them away,
I'd also definitely be interested in hearing the opinions of the other poster who brought up the issue of how doing away with the figures plays a part in this Decline in Women's Skating Problem.
So which current skaters do you feel have the best edges anya?
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YOU AGAIN:
You act like Arakawa is a teenage phenom when she is only a year younger than Michelle.
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ME:
I've also been discusing this issue with another friend of mine (you'd probably love his opinions).
Anyhow, I told him what I see in the case of Arakawa is the complete OPPOSITE of the Tara/Sarah Situation.
Instead of Arakawa being a Teenager, she's an *OLDIE* who also has very little, or not as much of a history of having won of Major Medals, (just like the case with Tara & Sarah), who Grabs the Oly Gold.
The MAIN POINT being for the past 12 yrs -- since 94 -- the Oly Medal -- which use to be something a Woman works her way towards getting -- over the course time -- by first winning a series of other Medals -- in other Skating Competitions -- Grand Prix, GPF, Nationals, Worlds -- has now become a Medal that is no longer EARNED by a Skater anymore.
Instead, the Oly Medal for Women has become something one Wins, as if the Women's Figure Skating Event was some kinda Gambling Game of Dice in Las Vegas!
And after 12 Long Years of watching this type of thing happening over & over again, I'm pretty sick & tired of it happening -- the same way as you'd be -- IF Sandu had beaten Plushenko & gotten the Men's Oly Gold Medal. Right?
If Sandu had beaten Plushenko, then you'd be here posting messages to complain about the RESULTS of the Men's Competition -- the same way as I'm now griping about the Results of the Women's Competition. Correct?
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anya_angie
18 years ago
Good question re: edges... the only ones I take notice in using edges are Plushenko and Weir.
If Sandu had beaten Plushenko, I would react depending on their respective performances. Of course, it pisses me off that a skater can have a terrible short program and come back to win the competition, and Sandu has done this many times. If Zhenya had fallen more than twice, or fell twice and had other errors, then I can understand him losing, but I don't think he would place below a perfect Sandu... Weir I can understand, but not Sandu... so yes you're right I would be annoyed. But to the extent of ranting about the system? I don't think so. I could be wrong though. I posted a huge rant on my site when Zhenya lost the GPF 03 to Sandu, but that was because Zhenya tried to push the sport forward, and meanwhile Sandu had several misttakes.
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"When daylight comes, my kiss shall break the silence which makes you mine!" Calef from Turandot
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34567
18 years ago
Sasha only fell ONE time. The other time she kinda triped & touched her hand to the ice, but she didn't fall down.
Did you know Kurt Browning did an entire TV show where he griped about the way Viktor Pentrenko won the Oly Gold Medal?
In the TV show he kept complaining about how Viktor skated to the *same program* that Viktor had skated to the season prior to winning the Oly Games in 92. Sound familiar?
Kurt seemed to think he deserved more credit for doing a Brand New program.
Of course you have the Oksana vs Nancy situation as well where Nancy felt cheated out of the Medal by Oksana.
And Lloyd (another Canadian) also made a Big Fuss when they let Katia & Sergei (who'd already turned Pro) back into the Oly Games again to compete as amateur skaters again. I think Artur had already gone Pro as well.
So by the time you had the other Cry Baby Candian Pair Skater complaining about her SILVER MEDAL in 2002, is it any wonder why she stood on the podium Boo Hooing, when the Candian Skaters had already been whining about getting beaten by the Russians for so long prior to that time?
Anyhow, this type of thing I'm doing (and you did when Sandu UNFAIRLY was GIVEN the GP Gold Medal) isn't really anything new.
VENTING is all part of this sport as well -- by BOTH the fans watching it -- as well as the skaters themselves.
But the fact also still remains that when a skater who's in 4th Place after the Short Program (like the case with Sarah & Arakawa) end up getting the Oly Gold Medal against the ODDs, what you have is a FLUKE. Right?
And when that skater has also been skating pretty badly in competitions the rest of the season leading up to the Oly Games, and has only one ONE other Major Medal (World Medal) prior to getting the Oly Gold Medal, that also makes their getting the Oly Gold Medal a FLUKE as well. Correct?
FLUKE:
1 : an accidentally successful stroke at billiards or pool
2 : a stroke of luck <the discovery was a fluke>
I'm tired of watching FLUKES taking place in the Women's Events for the past 12 yrs!
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anya_angie
18 years ago
I thought Arakawa was in 3rd after the short, with Suguri in 4th.
If Abt had gotten Euros 02 it too would be greeted as a fluke, based on how he too skated poorly that season and previous seasons before that. Keep in mind he's had the same track record as Arakawa for much of the same reasons. Only difference is that last year Arakawa had a nervous breakdown at her Nationals, whereas Abt has been lucky enough not to have had one. And of course Arakawa is lucky enough not to have had her leg broken.
I was only referring to Zhenya. He's artistically advanced enough so that if he falls once then it should be understandable why he would win. And I can understand Sasha winning with her usual fall and other mistakes. BUT if Zhenya had fallen twice, or made other mistakes in addition to the fall, as in Euros 04, then I can certainly understand him losing to a fluke like Joubert.
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"When daylight comes, my kiss shall break the silence which makes you mine!" Calef from Turandot
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34567
18 years ago
Opps! Yes you're right. I see she did place 3rd in the SP. Guess I've got a replay of Sarah on the Brain that just won't go away!
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/torino2006/figure_skating/results?day=all
Ladies' Short Program
Athlete Country Score
1 Sasha Cohen USA 66.73*
2 Irina Slutskaya RUS 66.70*
3 Shizuka Arakawa JPN 66.02*
4 Fumie Suguri JPN 61.75*
5 Kimmie Meissner USA 59.40*
6 Elene Gedevanishvili GEO 57.90*
I really liked the girl from Georgia. Was she the one wearing the black tights?
I also liked her costume as well as her skating style. Maybe I'll keep watching after Plushenko, Johnny Weir, Irina, Michelle & Sasha retire as long as skaters like her who interest me keep coming along.
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anya_angie
18 years ago
I can't recall what she wore but I do like her skating! I hope we see more of her in the future.
I think Weir will stick around. Considering he's only been skating for 10 years, I think it would be foolish to retire now.
How do you feel about Suguri? I think she has great quality.
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"When daylight comes, my kiss shall break the silence which makes you mine!" Calef from Turandot
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34567
18 years ago
As a fan of Yuka Sato, who's father is Suguri's coach, naturally I like the quality of her skating very much, the same as you do. Lately she seems to have had the same problems with consistency that Sasha's been having though.
The sand man's calling me. Is he calling to you too?
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anya_angie
18 years ago
Oh I ADORE Yuka!!!!!! I saw her live at SOI 04. Just wonderful!
I got a very good night's sleep so he's not calling me! lol
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"When daylight comes, my kiss shall break the silence which makes you mine!" Calef from Turandot
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34567
18 years ago
Yes Yuka is one of the FEW skaters that acutally tends to INTERPRET the music -- along with every little nuance to it -- rather than putting on a piece of classical music -- and then pretending as if she's skating to it -- when what it looks like (to me) is certain skaters are merely counting out their program inside of their heads -- meaning it really wouldn't matter what music was playing at the time-- because certain skaters would still skate to their by the numbers program -- without really INTERPRETING the music -- the same way as Yuka does.
Since you're such a smart cookie, I'm betting you can guess which skater(s) at this years Olypics I have in mind, or which one of the ladies I'm referring to when I mention this matter.
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