MovieChat Forums > Alatriste (2006) Discussion > Did the 17th century Spanish call the Ne...

Did the 17th century Spanish call the Netherlands Flanders?

posted 16 years ago by tinus42
4 replies | jump to latest

The beginning of the movie is set in Flanders in 1622. They show a map of Flanders which include cities such as Gouda and Rotterdam, which definitely aren't part of Flanders and never have been. Breda also isn't a Flemish city, it is located in the Dutch province of North Brabant (there also is a province of Brabant in Belgium). The map doesn't show the political division of the Low Countries at the time.

In 1579 the Union of Atrecht (now known as Arras and currently located in Northern France) was formed, which became known as the Spanish Netherlands, which stayed loyal to Spain and comprises of the territory of the present-day Kingdom of Belgium. Flanders was part of the Spanish Netherlands.

As a response also in 1579 the Union of Utrecht was formed, which became de facto independent of Spain as the Republic of the United Provinces (the territory of which now forms the Kingdom of the Netherlands) two years later.

In 1648 the Peace of Munster (AKA the Peace of Westphalia, which also ended the 30 Year War in Germany) was signed which officially ended the Dutch War of Independence (also known as the Dutch Revolt and the Eighty Years War) and at which the Spanish recognized the independence of the Dutch Republic.

So I guess Hollywood movies aren't the only ones to muddle their history.

Anyways it's nice to see a movie based on the other side of this war which formed the basis of Dutch nationhood. I wish we Dutch made a movie about this period of history once (although Dutch film makers generally aren't interested in periods before the 20th century).

[–] rogornmoradan 16 years ago

There's nothing muddled in the things you mention. Yes, in the same way that today in many languages the Netherlands are called 'Holland', when Holland is not the whole country, at that time words such as 'Flanders' were sometimes used in a non-strict sense. This is documented in letters from soldiers and nobles of those years. In texts of the time you can read English sources, for example, referring to the Netherlands as 'those islands', as much of the land that today is dried-out and habitable was still under the sea, and sailors treated them as such. Today many times Americans refer to Europe, or Europeans to Africa for generic purposes, without specifying more. To say nothing of the English word 'Dutch', derived from 'Deutsch', which is what the Germans call themselves. Everyone does it.

So yes, it's factually inexact, but it follows usage of the people of the time, and therefore historically correct.

As for the political divisions of the map, you wouldn't expect a Spanish map to show political divisions decided by their Dutch enemy, and vice-versa. The fact that some provinces declared themselves independent didn't make them so until they could make their adversary sign off on it, which only happened after 80 years of war. Besides, boundaries changed very often due to the war, and conquests weren't recognised by any side, as you'd expect, sometimes even after treaties were signed. Later on in the film, the map you can see when Alatriste has a conversation with Olivares is a Leo Belgicus, typical of the time, which you might be familiar with (you can Google it otherwise).

The film finishes in 1643, so the Westphalia treaty has got nothing to do with it.

I hope for those Dutch films too. Cheers.

[–] tinus42 16 years ago

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for this enlightened post. Of course the Spanish at the time didn't recognize us as an independent country (just like the English didn't even recognize the USA as a sovereign nation even after they had lost the War of Independence. The War of 1812 is proof of that, it was started by the issue of whether Americans were still subject to British law.)

So this movie is more factual than I thought. I must resee it once. Besides I love Viggo Mortensen in this sort of role, he definitely established himself as a swashbuckling leading man after playing Aragorn. :-)

[–] Duckhunter_NL 15 years ago

You're quite right, except for the fact that Dutch isn't derived from Deutsch, but rather from Diets(ch), an ancient Germanic word, from which Deutsch is also derived.

[–] robertcop 11 years ago

As you say, Flanders was just a region of the Spanish Netherlands. It was the first area in which the revolt started, i.e. siege of Antwerp (in today's Belgium, former Flanders) overthrown in 1585, so the Spaniards referred the conflict as the War of Flanders (today known as the Eighty Years War) meaning any battle in any part of the Netherlands.