Too many Dutch in here
Seems some of the remarks are given in by the smell of nationalism.
Indeed it is a good Dutch picture, but a 8.6 on IMDB.... Come on... and get
real!
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MovieChat Forums > Simon (2004) Discussion > Too many Dutch in here
I'm from Holland so i'm not really objective, but I can't remember an American movie I've prefered over Simon, so why shouldn't Simon be rated higher? Because it's Dutch and the Dutch market isn't as big as the American? I'll be the last person to say Dutch movies are great, there has been a lot of crap, but this one is one of the best movies i've ever seen; it's up there with Pulp fiction, Shawshank redemption, La meglio gioventu, I cento passi, Snatch, Finding Nemo, The usual suspects, Lock, stock and Fight club! So no other Dutch movies in my top 10!
And as the other guy said: no American should call an other country nationalistic!
For the record, im a 27 year old portuguese male, and this is the best movie i´ve seen in a long time. Im not a sentimental guy, but it touched me ( first movie that made me cry ).
shareFirst of all: Have you seen the movie? I think that more dutch people are sceptic about a Dutch film then a foreign film. This movie is great and deserves the full 8,6 points it's getting so far. Hope to see it high at the top-250 of all-time where it belongs.
If you haven't seen it, do it now!
I so agree. I have seen a lot, and that is a lot movies, and there hasn't been one touching me like Simon did. Does this mean it is the best movie I have ever seen? No, it is not, but only few I found better (pulp fiction, big lebowski, once upon a time in the west). It ís the best Dutch movie I have ever seen. The 8,6 seems very reasonable, maybe even a bit low...
shareWhy are we talking about nationalism? None of the main themes en plots are devoted to nationalism. And besides that, why would it be wrong to shoot a movie grounded bij nationalism? Because of the 2nd World War? Europe, movies and nationalism are a taboo where it should be the United States to have this taboo...
shareIf you understand what you try to say here, maybe you can explain me, cause I'm really left in the dark here. If however it's an attempt to stupidism, this movement finally found one of their founding fathers.(a serious attempt of sarcasm... btw).
But to answer to some of the question(s) you have?!
Nationalism; because of the fact it's a Dutch movie and many of the people with positive remarks about this movie(Simon, in case you forgot), are Dutch.
Than you begin to blatter about why it should or shouldn't be wrong to make a movie, with a script about nationalism?? And that Europe, movies and nationalism are a taboo, where it should be the US to have this taboo...?!
Come back to me when you make sense.... stupid!
You're the master of your own universe.
FYI,
I have seen the movie. This movie is definately not worth anything near a 8.6, otherwise update your movie knowledge & taste. You will see after time will pass by, it will get the points it deserves. IMDB, has a balanced score with regard to voting, first but not last, to exclude movies from a position, other (really good) movies are entitled to. So it would be wishfull thinking it will rank up anywhere near the holy 250... Good luck though!!(maybe praying will help?!)
You're the master of your own universe.
If it really is about nationalism, why does the majority of Dutch people hate Dutch movies so much?
The major problem with this movie is that a lot of its charm gets lost in translation. The dialogue and the accents are just typically Dutch. That could also be a reason why ram66 (if he/she isn't Dutch) doesn't like it as much as a lot of the Dutch do.
The majority of Dutch posting in response to this Dutch movie however doesn't seem to hate this one, which causes the 'smell of nationalism', in my opinion. But I think this isn't the discussion. It isn't about if I like it as much as much as the Dutch here do, but if it's acceptable that this movie rates an 8.6 and for example 'Lost in Translation' rates an 8.0. Whether the movies are Dutch, German, English, American or Brazilian there's always a common factor that makes one movie better/worse than the other. I state, Simon(which I saw) isn't up there with for example 'Cidade de Deus'(a Brazilian movie) which rates only a .2 higher than 'Simon', when it should outrate Simon with at least 3/4(objective)5/6(subjective)points. I don't think 'lost in translation' has anything to do with it. It didn't hurt 'Cidade de Deus' either(it was in Portuguese).
You're the master of your own universe.
An essential point in EVERY film is the way the viewer is touched (in any way) by the story and the main characters (inner) decisions. That will affect the "rate" a viewer will give to the film.
Clearly many people are touched by the film Simon and rate it very high. So it's not only about who is in the movie, who made it, what cinematografic or CGI effects are used and what the general public opinion of the movie is. Important is what your feeling are during and after you've watched the film. I can understand that you didn't like the movie, but the rate speaks for itself, especially with the current 1300 votes. If the rate drops when i.e. American viewers rate the film lower, the current high rate doesn't have to do with nationalism but more with the difference in culture. Every culture (or country) shall react different on certain films and the topics. Just look at the difference in the rating of Cinderella Man from American (8,4) and non-American viewers (7,5). Perhaps Americans can identify better with the main character, therefor are more touched by his life and (inner) decisions.
I can understand that (for now mainly dutch) viewers rate the film an 8,6. I also was very touched (drama and comic) by the film, I also cried and it doesn't happen a lot. I hope the American viewer are touched by the film just like the dutch audience. I believe the American release is at the end of this year, so we shall see.
But again: it is not the rating on IMDb that decides wether YOU like a film or not. It is the feeling (and not just the dramatic feeling) that you will get while watching it!!!!!!
Aside from the fact that I think the discussion is mainly about the fact if a movie like Simon should get the same ranking as 'obviously' much better movies, I had some time on my hand to react to your posting.
1. I think general public opinion is build on individual opinions.
2. I didn't say I didn't like this movie.
3. I do think that nationalism (the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity and the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination) has everything to do with it, but your remarks about 'culture' proof me right, pretty much the same, but mine are a bit stronger phrased.
4. If you think that Simon will stay at an 8.6, I really wish you luck in the competition with really 'great' movies.(pray?!)
5. By looking at your knowledge about Cinderella, I may expect you to be a long time member of IMDB with only two comments only regarding Simon? Maybe the international release has something to do with it? Are you a sockpuppet, involved somewhere in the process of this movie? (for sockpuppets see the discussion with regard to 'My date with Drew'). Is there an army of sockpuppets currently voting for Simon, giving it a rating of 8.6? I hope not, I would be a shame.
6. If your angry about point 5, Try picture this; I shot Ronald Reagan, I shot JFK, I *beep* Marilyn, she sung me 'Happy Birthday'.
You're the master of your own universe.
The only thing I want to say is that a movie discussion should not focus on an IMDb rating and definitely not when you are comparing movies! I thought that was going on in this topic.
Maybe I formulated my reaction the wrong way.
Some other points:
- Nationalism can be part of a culture, it's really not the same.
- I'm a member of IMDb since 2000, I like the site very much but never post on the forum. Don't know why :s
- I said it wrong but with general opinion part I meant that a lot of people are liking movies just because there's a high rating on IMDb and so they are supposed to like it. That's wrong!
- I'm not involved in the process of the movie Simon. So I'm not a sockpuppet (didn't know the word before). I've just watched it and like it. But from experience I can tell that almost everybody I spoke also liked the movie. So I don't think that te current high rating is the result of sockpuppets.
- I don't really care if the rating of Simon drops. I like the movie and that is the only important thing for me, art is personal. But I like to see what the rate does when the movie is released in America. Always funny and interesting to see.
Enjoy discussing and watching movies.
Ciao
A movie discussion should only focus on an IMDB rating, if the rating is misplaced in one way or another and I explained this with 'the smell of nationalism'(rephrase; a lot of Dutch voting for this movie and giving it a high rating just because it's a Dutch movie with a typical Dutch script), or at least that's my opinion. Simon seems a bit out of order, but nothing I lose sleep over at night.
- Nationalism and culture are intertwined!
- Idiots that like a movie just because of the fact it has a high rating are a bunch of fools, couln't agree more. But the rating can serve as a guideline for the consideration to go and see a movie.(general opinion and critics are most of the time not divided in the judgement of a movie)
- Ok, I'll take back the sockpuppet remark than, apologies are in order!
Enjoy discussing also and see you around!
Viszontlátásrá!
You're the master of your own universe.
I think you're wrong about the part that a lot of Dutch are giving this movie a high rating just because it's Dutch. Have you looked at the ratings of other Dutch movies? Here are a few for you to try: Minoes, Costa, Zus en zo, Volle maan, Snowfever,Ellis in Glamourland.... Doesn't look like Dutch nationalism to me :)
This is just a very good movie, wich loses a lot of it's charm because of the translation (i've seen it, and it does) A lot of witty things, accents and just dutch remarks are not-translateable.
You noticed that it didn't work that way for "cidade de deus", but i think that's because that movie was impressive because if it's story and way of filming. Not because of it's dialogues wich are one of the strong points in this movie.
In every country crap is being made, guess you referring to this with the above mentioned movies, this is the same for many American movies. Because of the fact your part of a community/culture, people tend to understand/rate a certain movie better, than people coming from another culture/community. Think the modest Dutch will identify more with a Dutch movie/subject than for instance a Danish/German/American one. This can be the reason that these Dutch movies will be rated better by Dutch than people from other countries. Think it's more or less a fact, the reason I refer to it as nationalism is because this term pinpoints this fact the best, its no insult or whatever.
'City of God' is a movie which had a good story and good filming indeed, but this doesn't make it a 'great' movie. It's a 'great' movie because the acting(it isn't acting for the actors, but 'real life', 'and' the dialogues(and translation) is great. These are all points that makes this a 'way' better movie than 'Simon'. Therefore the rating for Simon is ridiculous if you compare it with the rating for 'City of God'.
You're the master of your own universe.
Still a nice discussion this. I don't think the two sides in this case will agree about how good this pictures is and if it is timeless (only future can tell).
Anyway, the discussion about "Cidade de Deus" and "Simon". These two movies are so different! Other continent, other culture, other story, other background, other way of filming, other actors, other director, other emotional impact etc etc.
These two forms of film-art are so different, they just can't be compared! Way are we trying to do that? The same thing as for example comparing Lord of the Rings with Lola Rennt. Why not just talk about the movie Simon!
Now there is this one dutch movie that is also shown around the world and this dutch movie gets much higher ratings than other dutch movies which are usually shown only in Holland. Then why would that be? Nationalism? If so, wouldn't the dutch give all (or at leat most) dutch movies high ratings? Yes they would, if this was simply a case of nationalism. But no, most dutch movies are reviewed very critical by dutch people.
Have you ever considered that people (and not only dutch people) might just like the movie so much that they give it such high ratings? That seems much more likely to me than a sudden burst of nationalism of the dutch audience with this one movie.
Not that i don't understand why you would think this as it's exactly the way it goes with most american movies. A lot of them would have never been made without it. And if you don't understand dutch society it is understandable that you might think it is the same in holland, but as you can see, that is not the case. Why? I can't tell you, and it's not that we don't have nationalism, in fact most dutch people are very proud of their country. But when it comes to movies we never have had much nationalism.
So i think the reason for these high ratings lies probably in the fact that a lot of people really think it is very good, and maybe it's because a lot of people outside the Netherlands have seen it and they don't judge it as critically as we dutch people do.
Either way, I'm not going to repeat myself here, you'll just have to read my previous remark more closely I guess(with regard to nationalism), you'll see that I eleborate and explain the used terminology.
I really don't understand what you are trying to say here; "So i think the reason for these high ratings lies probably in the fact that a lot of people really think it is very good, and maybe it's because a lot of people outside the Netherlands have seen it and they don't judge it as critically as we dutch people do."
However it seems not logical to me that Simon with an 8.6, belongs in the same category as;
16. 8.6 Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964) 69,929
17. 8.6 Citizen Kane (1941) 66,650
18. 8.6 The Usual Suspects (1995) 113,862
19. 8.6 Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) 102,288
20. 8.6 Cidade de Deus (2002) 33,385
21. 8.6 12 Angry Men (1957) 32,909
22. 8.6 Memento (2000) 101,440
23. 8.6 C'era una volta il West (1968) 20,286
24. 8.6 North by Northwest (1959) 39,039
It's pretty much the same comparing a good car as a Volvo to a Maserati, but maybe that depends on taste or the lack of it...
You're the master of your own universe.
I have read your explanation. Also i explained in my previous remark why you are mistaken about it. I know there is a lot of nationalism in american movies, therefor i can understand you would think this might be the case in all countries but that is not the case as i explained before.
But what if it was the case that the dutch voted on this movie with nationalism in mind, would that be wrong? No, as americans also vote with nationalism in mind and nobody complains about that. Would there be an equal amount of votes be allowed from every country in the world then the IMDB would be very different. In fact, a lot of the american movies in the top 250 wouldn't be in the top 250 if that was the case. Why? Not because they aren't good movies, just because then movies from other countries would get equal opportunities.
And for your list, you think Simon isn't as good as those movies and you are right to think that. Everybody has a right to have his own opinion. I think it deserves to be in that list. In fact, i think it is even better than for example Raiders of the lost Ark and Memento. Those are both good movies but Simon is simply better in my opinion.
But then why not accept other peoples opinion? Why can't you accept the fact that there are hundreds of people who don't agree with you? There are 1375 (maybe more when you read this) people who think this movie is worth the 8.6 rating it has at this moment. Sure, maybe the majority of those voters is dutch but what is wrong with that? How many american movies on IMDB do you think get ratings from americans? Do you complain about that too? About americans who vote for american movies and who give it higher ratings than people from other countries do?
I think you don't, instead you start about the one dutch movie which might just make it to the 50 best rated movies in the IMDB. A top 50 filled with mostly american movies. all of them with more american votes than Simon has dutch votes.
Understand that you are trying hard to get your point across, but it isn't going to work out, think we are both taking part in another discussion here. And really, i'm not mistaken about it.
Here's the picture; Many people(or not so many, because it will not get as much viewers as the movies mentioned in my previous remark) are going to vote for Simon. The rating it now has, because of the many Dutch that already voted for Simon and giving it a pretty high rating(because of the fact its a Dutch movie(nationalism)) will drop as time progresses and it finally have a rating it deserves. Lets make a prediction here; hmmm I say around 6.5, seems a fair rating to me.
I really hope that the minimum rate of votes necessary for a rating will be made(you need more than 1375 votes), because its a nice movie, I didn't say it sucked in any of remarks.
FYI I think with American movies its the same(they will rate American movies as part of their culture of course higher than foreign movies), as well as French movies, Spanish or Danish ones. I think you miss the point here, the rating of this movie is more than average influenced by the number of Dutch voting for this movie.
"Would there be an equal amount of votes be allowed from every country in the world then the IMDB would be very different. In fact, a lot of the american movies in the top 250 wouldn't be in the top 250 if that was the case. Why? Not because they aren't good movies, just because then movies from other countries would get equal opportunities." If you don't like it loose it(if you are frustrated about IMDB/American movie industry, visit a Dutch one and take part in discussions/ratings for Dutch movies only), its a fact that there are a lot of movies made in the States, a lot of crap too(more crap, than good movies...)
But because of the volume of movies produced and the amount of money spend in the American movie industry, a lot of very good movies are produced to, that's why there are so many movies in the listing.(top 250) If the same amount/same production value and same professionals involved in American movie industry would be at the disposal of the Dutch movie industry and there would be a long history/heritage in producing movies, the Dutch could accomplish the same. Its going to take a lot of money, effort and time. But it can be done! Go man, go!!(I think you can do it!!)
"Instead you start about the one dutch movie which might just make it to the 50 best rated movies in the IMDB". Seems pretty nationalistic to me, don't project your frustration about Dutch movies on me man... ;-)
You're the master of your own universe.
First of all, i am not frustrated about this at all. Time will tell where Simon will end up considering it's rating. What does dissapoint me is that you blame the high rating the movie has now only on the assumption that it is because of in your opinion unrealistic voting of the dutch audience.
You completely ignore the fact that people from around the whole world who have seen it just might find it a movie that deserves the rating it is getting now.
There are lots of movies i don't like, or movies i like but give lower ratings than other people do but i don't start looking for a reason why those movies don't have the rating i think they should have. I just accept the fact that the people who voted for the movie on average like the movie more than i do.
Ok, maybe its your tone of voice that leaks a little frustration, without you knowing?! I just explained that if you release a movie in its home country first, you will get unrealistic ratings of this movie because of only nationals voting for this movie. Not many people from other countries have already voted, especially if you consider the amount of votes up and till now.
I'm not looking for a reason here, I'm clear in what I'm saying. Why look for something when you already found it? ;-]
Who told you that I'm not accepting the fact that people give it the rating they do? I'm just offering an explanation, for the fact that I think its ridiculous that Simon has the rating it currently does....
You're the master of your own universe.
Holy 250? You mean the list that's being raped (problably by american's, but I don't like to judge) by rating movies like Shrek, Spiderman, Die Hard and so many more over movies that they don't understand.
I agree that the rate probably will drop, but I think that this movie belongs in this list. Maybe It's not for evereyone, not many people are used to a scene where so much is tolerated and it could be frightning....I can see that. Don't think that the dutch people rate this movie higher then is should be, if any movie is criticised here it's a film in our own language.
I watched the movie with and without English subtitles and the jokes came across pretty well. Simon's humour doesn't consists of wordplay, but he uses comparisons and honesty: things that aren't hard to translate.
Simon deserves a high rating, because it's a good movie. Period. Any good movie deserves a high rating. Whether others agree with it is a whole different topic. The beauty of the imdb rating is that it shows an average.
I might be too liberal because I'm Dutch, but I think this is a good movie. Anybody who can't look past the two gay characters and a couple of naked people to see the real essence of this movie shouldn't write off the movie as 'bad'. If you're not used to it, OK, but try to understand the bigger picture instead of nitpicking abou details.
Dutch people are not pround about there country.
At least not like France, Italian or usa people.
I haven't seen the movie but I think a 8,6 is too high.
But I can't say it now because I haven't seen it.
this is the dumbest remark ever: "I haven't seen the movie but i think a 8.6 is to high"
You can't judge it if you haven't seen it!
Don't think this is the dumbest remark ever, but it depende what you are used to.... Can imagine far dumber remarks than this one!
If you look closer(not taken into account the misspelling) you see that he makes an consideration; 'But I can't say it now because I haven't seen it'.
Further I think you can clearly say this rating is too higheven if you didn't see the movie. And 8.6 should be a very, very, very, very, very good movie. And Simon hardly is(its a good movie, but not an 8.6).
You're the master of your own universe.
"Further I think you can clearly say this rating is too higheven if you didn't see the movie."
Sure, you CAN say alot of things. Point is, ofcourse, that the opinion is meaningless if the person doesn't even know what he's talking about. Which seems to be the case, seeing as poster himself said that he hadn't even seen the movie yet.
I could say you're the most beautiful woman on earth. Meaningless statement aswell, seeing as I don't even know you and have never seen you. You might even be a guy (and you probably are).
Ok...
SAY if you see a pile of *beep* lying around at a dirty corner downtown NY.
SAY a really nasty smelly one... Point is of course that you CAN SAY you wouldn't like it when you eat it. FACT; you didn't taste it, so how can you SAY that you wouldn't like it?
You CAN be sure about certain things... Or are you the kind of person who is willing to taste everything? If I have to eleborate, please let me know!
You're the master of your own universe.
A big pile of *beep* produces a certain stench which indicates that you probably wouldn't like it if you decided to eat it. But for all I know *beep* might taste like chicken.
But I wouldn't go to www.sh*ttastesgood.com and go on their forums and proclaim how foul *beep* would probably taste if I decided to eat it.
Anyway, the comparison is kind of weak if you take into account that it's not socially acceptable to eat *beep* (not where I'm from anyway)
I get your point, but you probably also get my point. It's unfair to judge a movie if you haven't seen it, simply because you are basing your opinion on 2 minutes of clipped footage(trailer), leaving out the other 100 minutes.
Off course I get your point. Your opinion about a certain subject weakens in its defense when your knowledge is poor on this particular subject.
You'll have to consider the metaphor in my remark.... But you already got my point, in general the ratings on IMDB are in relation to the general opinion people have about certain movies. And there are exceptions.. In this case a lot of people that really think Simon has the same class and level of the other movies rated an 8.6.
You'll probably find the same situation on a Star Trek message board, where people are really convinced that Star Trek 5 is amongst the best movies ever made. I'm not trying to convince or change these people either, we're all beings under God, but sometimes a bit strange. But that's ok! And Star Trek fan's.... hmmm they are nationalistic!(the fourth Reich)
You're the master of your own universe.
That is complete *beep* of course, No one can judge a movie before they have seen it.
Suppose you ever have the bad luck to be accused of a serious crime like stealing or maybe even murder, i guess you would find it ok for the judge and jury to decide you are guilty or not before the trial?
Well....
Suppose... See my answer to MR BROWNSTONE..
You're the master of your own universe.
I'm afraid you are wrong Mr ram66 (as most threads here are trying to tell you).
I am neither Dutch or American but British. I enjoyed this film immensely and believe a rating of 8.6 to be entirely correct.
In every aspect of production, from scirpt to sets to performance, this film matches the best that Hollywood has to offer (not too high at the moment). Indeed had Simon come from that part of the world, I suspect it would have been recieved with enourmous praise and a rating of 8.6 or higher bestowed upon it by art loving Americans everywhere.
Perhaps it is you who should question whether indeed you are being somewhat anti-nationalistic by deeming this a an average film. Had Lost in Translation come out of the Netherlands, I suspect your enthusiasm for that and similar films might have been less......
I'm interested in movies, whether they are American, French, German, English, or in this case Dutch. I saw; Turkish Delight and Soldier of Orange(from the great P. Verhoeven). So if I have to compare these three Dutch movies with each other I really think the two above mentioned movies should get a higher rating than Simon(they don't for the record) nationlism/no nationalism taken into account. With regard to your remark that I don't like Dutch movies just because they are Dutch... it's BS. Further I didn't say I didn't like Simon.
Still say an 8.6 is overrated...
You're the master of your own universe.
Dutch people are not pround about there country?
Whatever gave you that dumb idea? Just because dutch people are very critical about dutch movies doesn't mean they aren't proud of their country.
And saying a rating of 8.6 is to high when you've never even seen the movie, that's just plain stupid.
arrogant little prick: some of the remarks are given in by the smell of nationalism
I read through this thread and I thought I'll check the rates of some other Dutch movies I've seen and vote while I'm at it. Turks fruit, Spetters, Amsterdamned, Flesh and blood, De lift. All rated between 6 and 7.5. Not much nationalism there. Honest votes to ok movies. You can not explain to me, nor to anybody else why Simon gets the nationalistic treatment and the others don't. And I know I can not explain to you why the average Dutch moviegoer genuinly believes this is a more than excellent film.
The Dutch are amongst the least nationalistic people in the world, together with the scandinavians. Sometimes there is a hint of nationalism if the Dutch national soccer team has an important match, but that's about it. You won't ever hear one of us scream GOD BLESS THE NETHERLANDS! The suggestion that we give a film an elevated vote because it's Dutch is laughable.
In a while the film will have accumulated enough votes to give it it's well deserved place in the top 250.
You really make a lot of sense.... Have fun!
shareTold you, can't explain it to you. You are just not smart enough.
shareI won't be answering any other posts you put on these boards unless you happen to make some interesting points. I might add that, from experience, this seems an unlikely scenario, but who knows. If others wish, they can indulge your pointless bickering for their own amusement. Bye.
Must look familiar! Have fun with yourself man, enjoy...
You're the master of your own universe.
What I've put forward here didn't require an answer. Apparantly you are not able to comprehend it.
share"Short attention span" would be a better name than royalrepeller.... Have fun!
You're the master of your own universe.
It would be a great name. But what bearing has this on the discussion?
shareHaha seems to me that we don't have to explain to ram66 why Simon deserves a good rating and that Dutch people are not that much nationalistic. He doesn't want to understand it and he doesn't want to have a good argumental based discussion here.
What we should do? Put the DVD of Simon in the player and enjoy the movie for another time.
Greetings
A dutch person (And maybe I'm a little proud to say that)
You don't have to explain, I already draw my conclusion. I don't hear any good arguments that changes my opinion, not even in the slightest of ways.... The reason that I'm not discussing this subject with Royalreppeler has other reasons, maybe you should think before you make remarks, think it can help you.
Indeed, maybe you should see Simon this instance and let me know what you 'think'. Instead of shooting useless remarks... Or didn't I get it right and this seriously was an attempt to convince me? Than I have to apologize, I thought of you as above mediocrate.
You're the master of your own universe.
If and when I was discussing with you, you would have noticed. The fact is; I'm not. Think, maybe find out and learn.
You're the master of your own universe.
a.l.p. If and when I was discussing with you, you would have noticed. The fact is; I'm not. Think, maybe find out and learn.
I was reffering to the discussion at hand. I'm fully aware that you haven't communicated anything of substance towards me. Furthermore it's not likely that I will learn anything from you, because there's probably nothing you know, worth knowing, that I don't.
a.l.p. You don't have to explain, I already draw my conclusion. I don't hear any good arguments that changes my opinion, not even in the slightest of ways
You're confusing opinion with misconception.
[deleted]
Have a nice weekend...
You're the master of your own universe.
Guess you can't aprreciate the brilliance of the movie when it's translated.
You could say it's lost in translation. the fact that foreign people keep calling it a comedy with jokes about gays proves that i guess.
And for the Topic title: "Too many dutch in here"
Well, too many dutch in here maybe but definetly too many americans in the rest of the world.
Maybe this has to do with the people that translated it.... I really wouldn't know, maybe you can enlighten me on this subject?
Presume you are Dutch with this remark. And as for the Americans 'When in Rome, do as the Romans' and thats just what the rest of the world does, so that's just great. Thanks!
You're the master of your own universe.
Well, I haven't seen the english version of the movie so i am not sure but in the dutch version the emphasis isn't on the jokes about gays, instead it's more a realistic story about the retrospect of a homosexual man about his unusual friendship with a macho coffeeshopowner. There are some funny moments in the movie but these are to my memory more about Simon and his personality than about gays. Of course the story gets more dramatic towards the end because of the deteriorating condition of Simon but the story stays realistic and never exploits the sentimental situation.
But i'll try to get a english copy of the movie someday so i can compare it to the dutch version.
[deleted]
Okay now cut the *beep* There is "The good, the bad and the ugly" and there is "Simon". Simon deserves maybe a 7.4 but not higher.It's one of the best dutch movies ever made because there are few others. Maar laten we het wel even normaal houden. In my opinion, my movie is the best movie ever made in Holland but that doesn't count so I must say that "soldier of orange" is the one with the most outstanding credits.
Onee nu komt het:
There it comes: This movie sucked if you're an american, because you're prehistoric. Not in a bad way, but I believe there is only a bad way. So do what you want with it, but stop being so prudish.
Maybe the translation was bad, if so I withdraw my conclusions. Maybe it's better way.
I'm a Dutch girl, and I checked the English subs; they are very mild... "Lapjeskut" is being translated as redhead, and there's absolutely no cursing in the subs...
However, back to the discussion. It's true: Duth people are not PROUD of their country. I guess they love their country, but the Dutch culture is different than the American's. In Holland it's a bad statement to wave a Dutch flag or to show it, except on holidays. I guess it's a result of WWII, Duth people hate nationalistic people. Really. Check out some info on "Lonsdale-jongeren" (Lonsdale-youth) and you'll know what I mean.
However, Simon is a wonderful film. It shows how Holland works, euthanasia, drugs, homosexuality. It's all Dutch. And I LOVE my country :)
The movie is great, but americans(at least most of them) don't understand life in holland. In holland we like american movies because we actually know something about america. Americans who do not like this movie probably don't know a thing about Holland or europe in general. Another problem is the translation, if you really want to appreciate this movie you should learn Dutch. But hé americans only know English right? If you're american you can't judge this movie. I am dutch and I loved this movie. Believe me it's not because I am dutch, my favorite movie is still 'Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind'. Don't judge dutch for being nationalistic that's quite narrow-minded, especially if you don't know our culture. There are some ofcourse but most people in Holland are quite the critic when it comes to dutch productions.
A brief American culture lesson.
Some Americans (like myself) actually know more than one langauge besides English. The reason why the majority don't learn another one other than English is because we live in a large community of other nationalities, so its easier to communicate in English. The second language most of us do learn is Spanish, because the second highest population of people here are Spanish speakers.
But about the movie.
I'm not Dutch but I actually enjoyed this film. I agree that you should know a bit about the European culture to fully enjoy this film, but speaking for myself as a Yankee, this movie was funny. The translations weren't exactly dead on but the general idea behind it was there. The only part of the movie I didn't like is when Marco and Simon took that girl back to Simon's house to have sex with her. It was almost like they were raping her, BUT not really because she wasn't really resisting. My friend who watched it with me agreed.
I go with your point with regard to not understanding life in Holland of most Americans. At least you make the distinction between all or 'at least most of them'. That the Americans only know English is only partly true, many 'Americans' have their roots abroad, this means that next to English Spanish is a language that is used very often. In LA for instance, you can't do anything, if you at least speak a little Spanish... This goes for immigrants or 'natives'(the 18th/19th century immigrants from Europe, in which its common to speak Irish/Scottish/Italian/French/German and even Dutch when you're amongst relatives).
Further America is a very big country in which the 'language' is English. The whole world speaks English, there is little use to conform with regard to this subject.
With regard of translation of movies.... The foreign movies I have seen.. most of them weren't poorly translated... So if you are watching a American movie, you should learn to proper understand American... ? That's BS man! If I wouldn't 'understand' the movie(which really isn't the case, there isn't so much to comprehend, btw I've seen more intelligent movies(no offense)), this is a problem of the translators and the producer didn't his job quite right... Agree?
Nationalism.... Proud of where your country stands for... Isn't a bad thing, you don't understand my words right....
However if nationalism influences a fair rating of a movie(such like Simon) on a international filmsite dramatically(in my opinion), 'that' is wrong... I would have made the same remark if for instance 'Rambo' would have a rating of 9.6... This is not about 'Dutch' bashing...
You're the master of your own universe.
So in 6 sentences you say you as a Dutch girl are not proud of your country(you belong to the population) and you LOVE your country. If the LOVE for your country can't be translated of being proud to be Dutch, that sound pretty schizofrenic to me...
However you make an interesting point, the hidden message in what you are trying to say... ;-)
You're the master of your own universe.
It's just not ok to be proud of your country in our culture. I like it here, I really do, but I don't think my country is better than other countries. A good example is the patriotisctic way Americans use their flag on about anything, if you show a Dutch flag (except on Queen's day or the world championship football) they see you as a racist. It's not ok to show your pride, but it's ok to be fond of your country. Our culture is highly influenced by the second world war; nationalism or patriotism is not good here.
shareErrr, 'This movie sucked if you're an american, because you're prehistoric. Not in ad bad way, but I believe there is only a bad way'?? Your really come acrosss old buddy old pal. Beside of the fact that your remarks are senseless, they don't show any kind of intelligence.(and I don't mean that in a bad way).
So let me repeat it for you again. I don't say that this movie sucks, I question its rating in relation to great movies, with which Simon couldn't even begin to compete against.... I don't say anything about 'not understanding' the film, or question its morality 'because I would be prude?'.
And again.... If the translation was bad, you withdraw your conclusions? Wtf is that about. But hey you know.. I don't even want to hear!
I'm trying to open an intelligent and 'open' discussion. I'm not interested in your American bashing, narrow minded view on 'your' world.... If you join the discussion, try to put forward something interesting....
You're the master of your own universe.
Sure... 8.6 is way too high compared to the other movies with that rating. But it is definitely as good as the movies listed low in the top 250.
Nationalism has nothing to do with Dutch rating the movie higher than people from other countries. It's just the way the main characters say things. Such things can't be 'translated' or even understood by Germans, French, Americans etc.