MovieChat Forums > Tarnation (2004) Discussion > too hard on his grandparents?

too hard on his grandparents?

posted 18 years ago by teejay6682
20 replies | jump to latest

i think so. i think he lays blaim a little too squarly on his grandparents specifically his grandfather. they clearly made mistakes with his mother in raising her but it's a little too simple to just blaim them and just feel sorry for her and her son. it was the 50s a compeletely different time where we didn't have the medicine and knowledge we have today. people thought shock treatment helped. i'm only 23 so i wasn't around then but i have the common sense to know that you can't completely understand an era you weren't a part of. look at slavery. i can't believe that everyone who had slaves was a completely dispicable human being because that was just the way things were. there had to be some people who, had they grown up in a more aware time would have rebelled against this notion cause they know it is wrong. every person doesn't question their entire world, thank god for the ones that do, but you can't crucify the decent people who didn't. it's really self rightous and assumptive to say that you yourself would have known better, because you DON'T know that. you weren't there and you would have been a different person had you grown up in that envirement.

watching "tarnation", from what i can tell, these people were awesome grandparents. they raised him when his mother was away and seemed to really love and accept him and let him be himself. from what i can tell, he was probably not in the closet in his youth so i would think they probably knew he was gay. (it would be hard for him to hide it from the footage of him as a kid) so the fact that they accepted him and allowed him to explore his artistic side is pretty incredible and broadminded for people of their generation, wouldn't you say? you never see his grandfather calling him a fag or scoulding him for dressing weird or making weird movies cause YOU KNOW that if he had, he would have put it in the movie. what you do get is scenes of them telling him they love him and correct me if i'm wrong but i think they bought him that camera he shoot all that old footage with and this is how he repays their love and kindness? you get him showing the world his grandmother in a very personal, private moments in her life when she's dying of cancer and you get him baggering an old man to make him look bad. i don't need to go into how narcisistic the entire film is, others have said it better then me but the entire film is about how bad he's had it when i thought the film was supposed to be about his mom. this guy, who i will admit is very talented and creative, i was astonished by some of the footage of him as a child, but he clearly has a victim mentality and wants someone to blame for the trouble he and his mother have had so he turns on his grandparent into an easy blame game. i'm not impressed.

[–] Wompa1one 18 years ago

That's because you don't get it

[–] lanoragd 18 years ago

In the audio commentary for Tarnation, Jonathan repeatedly praises his grandparents, especially his grandmother. I recommend viewing Tarnation again with the commentary on.

[–] teejay6682 18 years ago

the film is not hard to ''get". a little condescending don't u think? there were things i liked about it.

and i listened to the commentary at the time i don't remember him praising them all that much, to be honest. i remember him saying he wanted to do a sequel to the movie with more footage he didn't use and that he still can't get "a damn answer" out of his grandfather about what happened. it's clear that he's laying the blame on his grandparents squarly for what happened to. what did he except to get out of him by nagging an old man with a camera in his face? he puts in the film with a different context and makes it looks like he's guilty of something.

[–] puffymuffin9 18 years ago

He's not laying the blame on the grandparents just by wanting to know what happened between them and his mother. During the film, it's obvious that he takes the context of the situation into consideration and doesn't make any inferences like, "Well, if they just weren't so dumb then they would've not let her get shock treatment." He filmed the emotional response that his grandfather offered him, and by that response the audience can see that there's a lot more to the story than what he's telling (or not telling) Caouette.

[–] thrillkult9 18 years ago

yes, he is laying a lot of blame on his grandparents. Jonathan's accusatory tone is evident when he interviewed his elderly grandfather, and also palpable in other parts of the film. But that is just the character he is playing, the story that he is telling. Because the narrator of the documentary is the documentarian himself, I don't think viewers should expect the film to be any less subjective than it is. We are seeing Jonathan's world through Jonathan's eyes, and shouldn't trust Jonathan for "the facts" (even if that is what he was after). Jonathan decided who speaks when and where to make cuts, he created this narrative, and that makes him another character in his film. That is what makes this film so honest, and it is what I appreciate about this film.

[–] teejay6682 18 years ago

i don't think the apprehension on his grandfather's face is good proof of some kind of guilt but an old man's somewhat justified suspicion that this video interview/badgering isn't going to be good for him.

[–] Rogue-32 18 years ago

Look what they subjected their daughter, Renee, his mother, to. Give me a break.

Come join my Paul Giamatti group - http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/talkpaul/?yguid=5754742

[–] joec_17 18 years ago

I think the shock treatments started in the 60s...no? You obviously haven't listened to the commentary, you might have played the movie with the commentary on, but you were too busy criticizing to listen. Some people like it and some people don't. Accept that and get over it...and while your at it get over yourself.

[–] qouth_the_raven 18 years ago

I'm inclined to agree with you to the extent that I could follow your reasoning given the writing sytle.

The grandparents were not only living it a 'different time' (remembering that lobotomies were still carried out in the 60's) but that they, themselves, were raised by parents born in the early 20th century. My parents would be about the same age as the grandparents and many of the granparents views and religious supertitions are ones I've had offered to me.

I also agree that in terms of tolerance for his homosexuality and artistic merit they were outstanding, if not particularly watchful. To some extent they did what i hope any grandparent would do for thier family but I think that, given the extent of mental illness in the family they went a step further.

My other observation is that in as much as we watched his life through movies he has done the same. Even if he have thousands of hours of tape of his life that is still just a small proportion of a 30 somethings life experiences. Video memories can be as deceptive as real memories, perhaps even more deceptive given that we see 'what happened' without the rest of the context of that minute, hour, day, week is that the reality of life.

I felt the questioning by leading of the grandparent was nothing less than bullying, for his own purposes.

[–] teejay6682 18 years ago

to answer the other poster., yes i watched the WHOLE film then the WHOLE film with commentary track on as well before i came to my conclusion, guys. this film is too hard on grandparents. that scene with the questioning the grandfather IS just badgering an old man into looking bad. i'm not saying the grandparents were perfect but they did a lot for this guy. those on here chastizing me for taking this position just want an easy target to blame just like the director. life isn't that simple.

[–] bilcal7-1 18 years ago

teejay. I think the fact that Jonathon was trying to find someone to blame shows the tendency of human nature. He needs to figure out a why. He needs SOMEONE to blame in order to find some peace in his chaotic, extremely unsettled mind. I like what thrillkult said. This just shows how real the film was. His grandparents were ignorant, but meant well. Jonathon want's answers. Just like anybody else.

[–] kristyanneg 18 years ago

You nailed it bilcal. I totally agree.

[–] fountainclown 18 years ago

totally disagree!
if my gandparents had done that to my mother, i'd never speak to them again.
too hard?
not hard enough in my opinion!

we've traced the call, it's coming from inside the house

[–] teejay6682 18 years ago

simple. simple. simple.

[–] fountainclown 16 years ago

True - but i guess i am saying that my gut reaction would be the same, it takes time to forgive and for that kind of thing i wouldn't.
still, that is just me and i know it's not the right and mature reaction but i dare say it would still be mine...

This is it. This is the moment of your death.

[–] crash999 18 years ago

A couple of the grandfather's answers were cut- wonder what they were. We also don't see what provoked the grandfather to refuse to answer more questions.

Can't blame Jonathan too much- he is just looking for answers.

I doubt the stories are true, though Renee has repeated them enough that she is acting as if they are. Notice her sharp reaction when Jonathan brings it up to the grandfather in front of her- my gut instinct was she didn't want the grandfather to hear what she had said. She goes on the offensive before a discussion could take place.

[–] filmgal14 15 years ago

In the 1960s, electro-shock therapy was very common, and was seriously thought to cure mental illness. I don't think Adolph and Rosemary gave Renee the shocks out of abuse or neglect, but because they genuinely thought they were doing the right thing. It says in the movie that neighbours and doctors suggested it, and so they did it. I'm sure they deeply regretted what they did, but I don't think Jonathan was wrong to try and get answers and explanations out of them. I think I would've wanted to know why as well.

[–] jasongrimshaw 15 years ago

I think a number of huge assumptions are being made here. Firstly there is no proof that the shock therapy worsened her condition. It may have worsened despite the EST. EST was and actually still is used in cases and has proven sucessful. Im not saying that it was not a contributing factor, but I do think it may be simplistic to suggest that there was nothing wrong with her until she had EST.

[–] Hippychik8 15 years ago

They used shock therapy back then just like they used frontal lobotomies because a "doctor" recommended it and back then, doctors were like a God. No one ever questioned their treatment. Just thank God that we all started thinking for ourselves finally.

[–] 15 years ago

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