MovieChat Forums > Zwartboek (2007) Discussion > She didn't learn anything...

She didn't learn anything...


Spoilers.

Towards the end of the film, Ellis suffers unjustified treatment at the hands of the barbaric victors who accuse her of being a collaborator. She's beaten, sexually assaulted, covered in excrement. After she escapes this, she's almost murdered by Gerben* for the death of his son, when the fact is she risked her life to save him. Ellis knows better than anyone everything that's wrong about the notion of revenge.

And yet, when she gets the chance to murder someone in revenge she takes it eagerly. I was surprised - I thought the film would end with her opening the coffin, handing Hans over. Sadly, she hasn't learnt from her experiences. She's just as bad as everybody else.


*OK he never gets close, but he would have killed her given the chance

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You aren't allowing for the WW2 context. There was a war on that had lasted 6 years and devastated Europe and the Nazis were in the process of carrying out organised genocide.

The character had lost her whole family, debased herself for the resistance and seen most of the members betrayed and killed. Akkermans was one of the main protagnists and had just attempted to murder her and escape with all of the loot.

Both characters agreed the right thing to have done was open the coffin, but if you had lived the last two paragraphs would you have spared the person most responsible and without a shadow of doubt guilty just to give them a supposedly fair trial? And there could always have been the chance of acquittal and no punishment.

They may have been the good guys but when it comes to revenge the line can become a little blurred and in those circumstances who could blame them.

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"They may have been the good guys but when it comes to revenge the line can become a little blurred and in those circumstances who could blame them. "

It's that kind of attitude that led to the mass rape of innocent German women during the final stages of the war. The line isn't blurred at all: revenge is never an excuse.

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People who say "revenge is never an excuse" are people who've never needed to exact revenge.

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"People who say "revenge is never an excuse" are people who've never needed to exact revenge. "

They are also people that secretly don't believe in justice. They allow instances of misplaced vengeance to make blanket statements denying the need and responsibility to exact justice when the system is incapable or unwilling to do so.

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Because, of course, a grieving man with a grudge is better placed decide right from wrong than an impersonal aggregate of collective knowledge... 'The system' is far from perfect, but it's stunningly arrogant to assume that you're any better.

I certainly don't believe in the perverted abstraction you call justice. The infliction of suffering is an intrinsically immoral action and impossible to reconcile with an ideal to which humanity should aspire.

Revenge is never an excuse for two reasons:

a) Precisely because of the frequent instances of misplaced vengeance that you accuse me of hiding behind. Those motivated to seek revenge are rarely those people with a critical and unbiased view of events. It's easy to brush off such things until it's you or you family who suffer at the hands of simple minded vigilantes.

b) The desire to punish and cause suffering are bestial impulses unworthy of an evolved creature. Condoning revenge simply contributes to the cycle of brutalisation which reasserts the societal misconception that violence is an acceptable solution to problems, and that ultimately empathy is an irrelevance.

So you think it's ok to kill someone for killing someone. That's fair enough, you've got a right to your own view. As far as I'm concerned, such hypocrisy makes a mockery of any system of beliefs.

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You know, I can see your point. In general I am not keen on capital punishment; it seems to me an admission that we as a society have failed to reach and nourish the decent impulses that lie buried within the heart of every monster. To execute somebody is a form of giving up.

But maybe sometimes giving up is the wisest course. If a mad dog is prowling the streets attacking and biting all who approach, well, maybe you can capture it and treat it and cure it; but it's a whole lot safer to just kill it.

As far as what was depicted in this movie, Hans Akkerman was just such a mad dog. He had already engineered the deaths of a handful of his "friends" in order to protect his secret, and had almost succeeded in killing Ellis by his own hand. Not to mention the scores, perhaps hundreds, of deaths in which he was complicit through his alliance with Franken. This is a man who could reliably be expected to kill again, if he had the chance.

So I for one was cheering Ellis on as she screwed down the lid on his coffin. To me it seemed that, given all that had happened, what she did was not only justified, it was the right, proper, wisest and best course of action.

But you, I see, aspire to something higher. So tell me: What is your answer to killers like Hans? If we don't collectively protect ourselves by killing them, what do we do? Do we imprison them until they die? To me that seems in some ways more cruel than executing them. Do we permit them to go free? That imperils everyone around them.

It's a knotty problem. I certainly don't have the answer, and I'd be interested to hear your views.

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Because, of course, a grieving man with a grudge is better placed decide right from wrong than an impersonal aggregate of collective knowledge...


She was THERE and felt the effects of the deadly dose of insulin that he INTENTIONALLY and with extreme malice, gave her to KILL HER!! I'd say she was definitely the one to decide right from wrong in that circumstance. He was a respected, charismatic and revered doctor. There would probably have been a good chance that he would have gotten off or worse, had HER prosecuted. Justice was served.

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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Noone has ever -needed- to exact revenge.

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"It's that kind of attitude that led to the mass rape of innocent German women during the final stages of the war. The line isn't blurred at all: revenge is never an excuse".

- Perhaps but it's very human-like. If you want everything in black and white where the "good" only do good and the "bad" can only do bad then this world is not the place to find it.

Another note the rape of the women was not a case of revenge, it was more a case of opportunity.

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Another note the rape of the women was not a case of revenge, it was more a case of opportunity.


A case of poor character and, of course, propaganda:

"Kill!Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for
all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your
lawful booty. Kill! As you storm forward. Kill! You gallant soldiers of the Red army."


-- Ilya Ehrenburg


Yours,

Thusnelda



Revolt of the Masses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13dgLzmHsnM

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Ilya Ehrenburg never wrote or said this.

Why does T. feel the need to lie?

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“Kill, kill, you brave Red Army soldiers, kill. There is nothing in the Germans that is innocent. Obey the instructions of comrade Stalin and stamp the fascistic beast in its cave. Break with force the racial arrogance of the German women. Take them as your legal loot. Kill, you brave Red Army soldiers, kill!”

--Ilya Ehrenburg, 1945

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@paul cowsill - can you give a reference for that comment that does not come from a revisionist / neo nazi website?


Anthony Beevor - the fall of Berlin 1945 (page 24)


Ilya Ehrenburg's own mesmerizing calls for revenge on Germany in his articles in the Red Army newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star) had created a huge following among the frontoviki, or frontline troops. Goebbels responded with loathing against 'the Jew Ilya Ehrenburg, Stalin's favourite rabble-rouser'. The propaganda ministry accused Ehrenburg of inciting the rape of German women. Yet while Ehrenburg never shrank from the most bloodthirsty harangues, the most notorious statement, which is still attributed to him by western historians, was a Nazi invention. He is accused of having urged Red Army soldiers to take German women as their 'lawful booty' and to 'break their racial pride'. 'There was a time,' Ehrenburg retorted in Krasnaya Zvezda, 'when Germans used to fake important documents of state. Now they have fallen so low as to fake my articles.'



he is a published historian whose book has to stand up to academic scrutiny, unlike an obscure website.

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Just another example of L. trying to twist the truth:


In your quote, Anthony Beevor is only quoting Ehrenburg himself without verifying whether he says the truth or not.

Ilya Ehrenburg is a well-known liar, as the super-politically-correct "SPIEGEL" wrote some years ago:

"In den Nürnberger Prozeß führen die Sowjets ein Märchen ein, das ihr Agitator Ilja Ehrenburg erfunden hatte: Die Deutschen hätten aus Leichenfett Seife gekocht. Die graue deutsche Einheitsseife trug den Stempel "RIF" (Reichsstelle für Industrielle Fette), laut Ehrenburgs Memoiren hieß das: Reines Juden-Fett."
(Der Spiegel, Nr. 50/1995, S. 63)).

Translation:
"In the Nürnberg Trial, the Soviets introduced the fairy tale which their agitator Ilja Ehrenburg had invented: The Germans allegedly had cooked soap from the fat of dead bodies. The grey German universal soap was stamped "RIF" (Reichsstelle für Industrielle Fette), according to Ehrenburg's Memoirs, this meant: pure Jew fat."


Moreover, it is interesting that you telling me that both Wikipedia and the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" (28. Februar 1995, p. 7), these super-politically-correct sources, are liars? LOL
Anyway tthey are definitely not "obsure websites".




Yours,

Thusnelda




PS:

http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/EREN.GIF


Yours,

Thusnelda




Der alte Barbarossa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pfk5DTXZFI

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"Kill!Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm forward. Kill! You gallant soldiers of the Red army."


this quote not in T's Russian article (linked)
not on wiki page (linked)
not in super-politically-correct Spiegel (quoted)


why does T. feel the need to lie about rapes? weren't they bad enough?

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The Miracle Years. A Cultural History of West Germany, 1949–1968. Edited by Hanna Schissler. Princeton: Princeton University Press. 2001.

I'm sorry the Coen brothers don't direct the porn I watch. They're hard to get ahold of, okay?

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"The Miracle Years. A Cultural History of West Germany, 1949–1968. Edited by Hanna Schissler. Princeton: Princeton University Press. 2001. "


Sorry Paul but I think you're making things up.

Here's the book that you claim the quote comes from. You can search the whole book and I think you'll find that the quote isn't there.

http://books.google.com/books?id=00fCzJKt1QMC&printsec=frontcover&; amp;dq=The+miracle+years:+a+cultural+history+of+West+Germany,+1949-196 8&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=zgn5TcHfKIPKswa5o8XeDw&sa=X&oi =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage& amp;q&f=false

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You don't seem to realize that the abstract of the text that you reference, is that, an abstract. Another reference is in the FRG Documents, Vol. I: The Expulsion of the German Population from the Territories East of the Oder-Neisse Line, 1960 trans., p. 49.

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You posted a quote attributing it to Ilya Ehrenburg and you still can't give a source for it. It appears in neither of the sources you've given.

You don't seem to realize that the abstract of the text that you reference, is that, an abstract.

No, it's not an abstract. It's a fully searchable book. If you search for a word like 'booty' (which appears in the quote) then you will find one occurrence in the book on page 25 (not a preview page) and it will show that word in context.

http://books.google.pl/books?id=00fCzJKt1QMC&printsec=frontcover&a mp;dq=The+miracle+years:+a+cultural+history+of+West+Germany,+1949-1968 &hl=en&ei=zgn5TcHfKIPKswa5o8XeDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&a mp;ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=booty&f=false

The book is fully searchable - no such quote from Ehrenburg exists.

Another reference is in the FRG Documents, Vol. I: The Expulsion of the German Population from the Territories East of the Oder-Neisse Line, 1960 trans., p. 49.

No such quote appears in the book you source. Ehrenburg is mentioned on page 49, but no such quote.

http://books.google.pl/books?id=tIUrAQAAIAAJ&q=Vol.+I:+The+Expulsi on+of+the+German+Population+from+the+Territories+East+of+the+Oder-Neis se+Line&dq=Vol.+I:+The+Expulsion+of+the+German+Population+from+the +Territories+East+of+the+Oder-Neisse+Line&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=po kaT4a_AsPrObSFmZQL&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ

Please give me the source from where you got this Ehrenburg quote from -

""Kill!Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm forward. Kill! You gallant soldiers of the Red army."





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Ilya Ehrenburg never wrote or said this.


He did.

I quoted directly from “super-politically-correct” Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ehrenburg
http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/EREN.GIF


Why does L. feel the need to lie?



Yours,

Thusnelda


Der alte Barbarossa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pfk5DTXZFI

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"Kill!Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm forward. Kill! You gallant soldiers of the Red army."


this quote not in T's Russian article (linked)
not in super=politically-correct wiki page (linked)
not in super-politically-correct Spiegel (quoted)




why does T. feel the need to lie about rapes? weren't they bad enough?


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You are an idiot. The Nazis (the Germans, basically) behaved worse than subhumans.

Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!

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Yeah make your judgement after you've been in that situation.

Personally I'd love to think I would not take revenge after all those years, all that heartache, and all that loss(though I don't believe what she did was revenge exactly). However, I'm also aware that I am a human being, whose judgement would most certainly be seriously affected by exhaustion, years of physical and emotional turmoil, and a swirling, twisting world full of rights and wrongs randomly changing from person to person. All that and much, much more.
To the point that you and I could not imagine.

I've a suggestion: if you think you can manage all that and still make the right choices every single time it matters, I suggest you go see if you react to Kryptonite.
You might find that you're a long lost son of Jor-El...

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"innocent German"....................I´m sorry this is a completely unknown term. Do you care to explain?

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i agree. i think that for stupid people the line between justice & revenge is very thin. i also think this movie was basically a dumb american movie disguised as "foreign".

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Fullmetaljackie:You must be brilliant then! Considering your nickname..............

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very droll. :0P there are exceptions of course :0)

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In other words, you couldn't be bothered to pay much attention.

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Why does everyone have to act in the same way as in every predictable American film where the good guys don't stoop to doing something the bad guy would do? It's very boring to expect a validation of a quaintly hypocritical notion of fairness in every single movie.

Rachel and Gerben were in a situation where they felt they couldn't trust anyone.. least of all Hans. I'm quite sure that Rachel also felt total disgust for the fact that this guy helped to murder her family and was now offering her this money to let him go free, and also probably for the fact that she once felt some affection for this guy.

If there's one convenient morsel-sized grain of truth you can take from this movie, it's that war does horrible things to people, even good people (Hans may have been good at one point too, he just had to make a deal with the enemy... inevitable subsequent corruption by money etc...). You see this clearly in the scenes of victory in the war when many people suspected of collusion were ritually humiliated, sometimes in conditions not dissimilar to concentration camps. War dehumanizes people on both sides to the point where they can commit incredible savagery to the other... this is something that is more relevant than ever in the world today.

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Exactly what is hypocritical about the notion of fairness?

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rachel/ellis trusted ackermann and never suspected a thing even as he was trying to kill her. that alone justifies his demise. you can play civilized all you want. i liked that he got killed. :D in a war, i'll be uncivilized and i won't learn anything about humanity. but i'll survive.

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This wasn't stated by the characters, but this is why I thought Gerben and Ellis elected not to turn Hans in. Hans was a hero, as can be seen in the earlier crowd scene. There was a chance he might escape justice due to his celebrity status as a fighter for the resistance. But this is inference on my part.

Still, I understand the comments of other posters. While Hans was clearly despicable, it would have been more noble of Ellis and Gerben to turn him in and let the wheels of justice take over.

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It's a relief for once not to glibly have a character change for the sake of conforming to a script gurus "character arc" graph.
I'm also less interested in the characters learning something than having learned something myself, which isn't the same thing at all.

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It's way too easy to sit in judgement over someone when you have no idea what they have endured, what they have seen, and how they have suffered. If you are so supremely confident that you would never, under any circumstance seek personal revenge, then I congratulate you for having lived so sheltered and cosseted a life, and for having avoided such personal suffering.

"It ain't dying I'm talking about, it's living!!!"
Augustus McCrae

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[deleted]

Well said.

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The film is pure, pro-Israeli propaganda. It is equally the most implausible script / story ever put to film, in true, Hollywood fashion. Why would you concern yourself with "plot holes"; the whole plot is a hole.
PS. I am not anti-Jewish, I even quite liked the film, but Israelis (and those that support) have got to stop looking for ways to justify its genocide of Arabs/ Palestinians This film, especially how it ended is part of a CONTEMPORARY war, more succinctly, a contemporary occupation - didn't you get that?

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No, the film is actually about the Spanish Civil War...

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http://mulhollandcinelog.wordpress.com/

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[deleted]